DLX boards now made in China

[S.]

^ Dude you believe that Canadian maple sticker?

I believe this more than I believe the opposite. Theoretically, you could sue them for false advertisement if it wasn‘t true. Also Companies like DSM/dwindle explicitly state, that they import all of their wood from Canada.

Global shipping of goods has become pretty cheap and efficient as many large western companies rely upon it for their supply chains.
https://jacobin.com/2021/06/logistics-industry-capitalism-unions

[manysnakes]

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I’m curious how long it takes them to get up to speed and the QC dialed in China.  I’m assuming it’s not easy getting everything set up.

[close]

The opposite- Chinese manufacturing is really quick and easy to scale up and QC varies by how much you want to pay of course.

Most expensive bike frames are made in China or Taiwan and no other countries can compete with the consistency and QC at scale as well as the cost of constantly altering molds or creating supply. There are a few companies that have been around a long time that are made elsewhere. Quality has evolved a ton in the past decade as well.

These Chinese factories are making an insane amount of boards. Lots of more generic graphics and shapes for large companies have been made there for a while and lots of non US market decks are as well. You might not like Crail or DSM, but they make a very large number of skateboards sold. It's likely their factories are larger and probably most flexible than BBS. Just look at BBS generics they're almost all the same molds where many companies made in China have their own unique shapes even for generic/team decks.

[close]

Agreed with all of this. It was always so funny in the bike industry to wait eight months to get a production frame from Waterford/Gunnar (RIP), only for the dropouts to be out of alignment and to find bubbles in the TIG weld (and for Richard Schwinn to tell me it's not his problem). Meanwhile, someone like QBP is shipping thousands of flawless and functionally identical frames from Maxway in Taiwan direct to dealers.

[close]

I don't know if you follow Hambini but it's amusing when he scans frames and checks for alignment and dimensional issues and the cheap no name brands are better than Cervelo. 

And to the other poster you can buy USA that's your prerogative and I can't comment on BMX bikes but most road bikes and many road bikes are better when they're coming from a large overseas factory. Merida makes the majority of carbon frames and has better QC and production than Trek, which was USA made last I checked.

Even for design there is much easier access to high powered computing necessary for FEA and engineering modeling abroad.

Skateboards are just glue and wood pressed together. It's technically not that hard to do. It is likely harder to control curing, the force of presses, and invest resources into new materials or methods.

I just hope the shapes don't dramatically change. I'm sure it was a pain for DLX to invest in all the new Truefit molds from BBS.

[close]

The argument against China made products goes beyond just the quality of the products. There is a reason to move production to china, it is because it is cheaper. Why is it cheaper? You pay much less money for the workers and there are less regulations about labor in general and protecting the environment. It is pretty fucked up. You exploit these conditions to make a cheap product ant then you take that product and sell it to people in western countries, who don‘t have to suffer the consequences of those working conditions.

Another argument is that it is worse for C02 emissions. Essentially they have to ship North American maple to China and then they ship the boards back to American distributions. That‘s much worse for CO2 emissions than a production that is done entirely in North America.

Another reason for BBS partial move to China might be, that they will have rely less on BBS for their orders. This will make them more flexible and give them more power negotiating prices and conditions for orders from BBS. If BBS wants to raise prices or put pressure on DLX they could just get more boards from their Chinese factory. It this was the reason there might be hope for DLX boards by BBS, yet.

[close]

I don't disagree that there are externalities, but in skateboarding the worry always seems to be in terms of quality.

Also, there's not necessarily any reason to believe emissions are lower. Boards from Mexico are often shipped on truck or air freight, which has higher emissions but is a shorter distance.

[close]

I looked up emissions of goods transported on cargo ships vs emission of transportation by truck. You are correct. Trucks cause about 20 times more CO2 emissions per ton than large cargo ships do. Still the CO2 footprint of a Chinese deck has to be way higher. You still have to get all the wood to a port first and from Chine ports to the factory in China and back. Additionally for a Chinese produced deck you have more than 12 000 miles on cargo ships (take wood from USA/Canada to China and transport finished decks back to US).

[close]

Would they really transport wood? Guitars made in Asia tend to use basswood instead of maple and poplar that MIA guitars tend to be made of. Wouldn’t woodshops in China just source whatever wood is available domestically?

[close]

They can also grow and farm trees. China is an insanely massive country with climates suitable for a large number of hardwoods.

I mean, a lot of times food at a Farmer's Market can have a higher carbon footprint than things sold in large retailers. Its not always intuitive at first. Like, we don't know what type of power plants power factories in Mexico or China. We don't know how the glue is made in either place and what environmental externalities that has. Without knowing these and other facts its naive at best to try to make a claim about sustainability. Just because Mexico is closer to the United States doesn't really mean anything about carbon footprint, the quality of goods, or labor practices in factories. Mexico also produces an insane amount of low quality knock off pharmaceuticals of questionable purity whereas many Chinese supplement companies have large operations to test for quality and purity, for example.

I was told by a former Clutch employee that sometimes their presses would slightly malfunction and they would pile weights on top to press decks or people would stand on top to add weight.  Apparently the glue being used is banned in the United States as well. Could be bullshit, but I know an individual that spent time working at Ermico and things didn't seem rosy there either.

[close]

Why are you trying so hard to defend Chinese manufacturing?

That's what you took from his post?

[Badandoldskater]

Sucks that things aren’t made closer to home anymore but companies for decades have been placing the tech and infrastructure in foreign countries, nothing new as money talks and shit walks.

[LebowskisRug]

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^ Dude you believe that Canadian maple sticker?

[close]

I believe this more than I believe the opposite. Theoretically, you could sue them for false advertisement if it wasn‘t true. Also Companies like DSM/dwindle explicitly state, that they import all of their wood from Canada.

Global shipping of goods has become pretty cheap and efficient as many large western companies rely upon it for their supply chains.
https://jacobin.com/2021/06/logistics-industry-capitalism-unions

Good luck proving in court that it is not true. I never trust any sticker on a skateboard since half of the DLX dimension stickers are more theory than reality.

Skateboarding is so low dollar compared to many industries I wonder if a massive amount of Maple is imported and used for carpentry/construction.

[Frank and Fred]

Good luck proving in court that it is not true. I never trust any sticker on a skateboard since half of the DLX dimension stickers are more theory than reality.

I buy a lot of DLX boards and have never had one labelled incorrectly. Just my experience but it felt necessary to mention it.

[S.]

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I’m curious how long it takes them to get up to speed and the QC dialed in China.  I’m assuming it’s not easy getting everything set up.

[close]

The opposite- Chinese manufacturing is really quick and easy to scale up and QC varies by how much you want to pay of course.

Most expensive bike frames are made in China or Taiwan and no other countries can compete with the consistency and QC at scale as well as the cost of constantly altering molds or creating supply. There are a few companies that have been around a long time that are made elsewhere. Quality has evolved a ton in the past decade as well.

These Chinese factories are making an insane amount of boards. Lots of more generic graphics and shapes for large companies have been made there for a while and lots of non US market decks are as well. You might not like Crail or DSM, but they make a very large number of skateboards sold. It's likely their factories are larger and probably most flexible than BBS. Just look at BBS generics they're almost all the same molds where many companies made in China have their own unique shapes even for generic/team decks.

[close]

Agreed with all of this. It was always so funny in the bike industry to wait eight months to get a production frame from Waterford/Gunnar (RIP), only for the dropouts to be out of alignment and to find bubbles in the TIG weld (and for Richard Schwinn to tell me it's not his problem). Meanwhile, someone like QBP is shipping thousands of flawless and functionally identical frames from Maxway in Taiwan direct to dealers.

[close]

I don't know if you follow Hambini but it's amusing when he scans frames and checks for alignment and dimensional issues and the cheap no name brands are better than Cervelo. 

And to the other poster you can buy USA that's your prerogative and I can't comment on BMX bikes but most road bikes and many road bikes are better when they're coming from a large overseas factory. Merida makes the majority of carbon frames and has better QC and production than Trek, which was USA made last I checked.

Even for design there is much easier access to high powered computing necessary for FEA and engineering modeling abroad.

Skateboards are just glue and wood pressed together. It's technically not that hard to do. It is likely harder to control curing, the force of presses, and invest resources into new materials or methods.

I just hope the shapes don't dramatically change. I'm sure it was a pain for DLX to invest in all the new Truefit molds from BBS.

[close]

The argument against China made products goes beyond just the quality of the products. There is a reason to move production to china, it is because it is cheaper. Why is it cheaper? You pay much less money for the workers and there are less regulations about labor in general and protecting the environment. It is pretty fucked up. You exploit these conditions to make a cheap product ant then you take that product and sell it to people in western countries, who don‘t have to suffer the consequences of those working conditions.

Another argument is that it is worse for C02 emissions. Essentially they have to ship North American maple to China and then they ship the boards back to American distributions. That‘s much worse for CO2 emissions than a production that is done entirely in North America.

Another reason for BBS partial move to China might be, that they will have rely less on BBS for their orders. This will make them more flexible and give them more power negotiating prices and conditions for orders from BBS. If BBS wants to raise prices or put pressure on DLX they could just get more boards from their Chinese factory. It this was the reason there might be hope for DLX boards by BBS, yet.

[close]

I don't disagree that there are externalities, but in skateboarding the worry always seems to be in terms of quality.

Also, there's not necessarily any reason to believe emissions are lower. Boards from Mexico are often shipped on truck or air freight, which has higher emissions but is a shorter distance.

[close]

I looked up emissions of goods transported on cargo ships vs emission of transportation by truck. You are correct. Trucks cause about 20 times more CO2 emissions per ton than large cargo ships do. Still the CO2 footprint of a Chinese deck has to be way higher. You still have to get all the wood to a port first and from Chine ports to the factory in China and back. Additionally for a Chinese produced deck you have more than 12 000 miles on cargo ships (take wood from USA/Canada to China and transport finished decks back to US).

[close]

Would they really transport wood? Guitars made in Asia tend to use basswood instead of maple and poplar that MIA guitars tend to be made of. Wouldn’t woodshops in China just source whatever wood is available domestically?

[close]

They can also grow and farm trees. China is an insanely massive country with climates suitable for a large number of hardwoods.

I mean, a lot of times food at a Farmer's Market can have a higher carbon footprint than things sold in large retailers. Its not always intuitive at first. Like, we don't know what type of power plants power factories in Mexico or China. We don't know how the glue is made in either place and what environmental externalities that has. Without knowing these and other facts its naive at best to try to make a claim about sustainability. Just because Mexico is closer to the United States doesn't really mean anything about carbon footprint, the quality of goods, or labor practices in factories. Mexico also produces an insane amount of low quality knock off pharmaceuticals of questionable purity whereas many Chinese supplement companies have large operations to test for quality and purity, for example.

I was told by a former Clutch employee that sometimes their presses would slightly malfunction and they would pile weights on top to press decks or people would stand on top to add weight.  Apparently the glue being used is banned in the United States as well. Could be bullshit, but I know an individual that spent time working at Ermico and things didn't seem rosy there either.

[close]

Why are you trying so hard to defend Chinese manufacturing?

[close]

That's what you took from his post?

Yes

[LebowskisRug]

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Good luck proving in court that it is not true. I never trust any sticker on a skateboard since half of the DLX dimension stickers are more theory than reality.

[close]

I buy a lot of DLX boards and have never had one labelled incorrectly. Just my experience but it felt necessary to mention it.

It is well known that the blue Eagle, one of their best selling boards, does not measure as the sticker says. The 8.25 does not measure the same either nor does the 8.125. This is covered ad nauseum on Slap.

Labeled Dims:
Blue Eagle: 8.5, 14.25, 31.9
Grey Eagle: 8.25, 14.38, 32
Black Eagle: 8.125, 14.25, 31.8

Real Dims:
Blue Eagle: 8.38, 14.2, 31.8
Grey Eagle: 8.32, 14.38, 31.9
Black Eagle: 8.2, 14.28, 32

[Richard Skidder]

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Good luck proving in court that it is not true. I never trust any sticker on a skateboard since half of the DLX dimension stickers are more theory than reality.

[close]

I buy a lot of DLX boards and have never had one labelled incorrectly. Just my experience but it felt necessary to mention it.

[close]

It is well known that the blue Eagle, one of their best selling boards, does not measure as the sticker says. The 8.25 does not measure the same either nor does the 8.125. This is covered ad nauseum on Slap.

Labeled Dims:
Blue Eagle: 8.5, 14.25, 31.9
Grey Eagle: 8.25, 14.38, 32
Black Eagle: 8.125, 14.25, 31.8

Real Dims:
Blue Eagle: 8.38, 14.2, 31.8
Grey Eagle: 8.32, 14.38, 31.9
Black Eagle: 8.2, 14.28, 32

The real life dims on the black eagle sound perfect. I have the hardest time finding them though.

[Frank and Fred]

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Good luck proving in court that it is not true. I never trust any sticker on a skateboard since half of the DLX dimension stickers are more theory than reality.

[close]

I buy a lot of DLX boards and have never had one labelled incorrectly. Just my experience but it felt necessary to mention it.

[close]

It is well known that the blue Eagle, one of their best selling boards, does not measure as the sticker says. The 8.25 does not measure the same either nor does the 8.125. This is covered ad nauseum on Slap.

Labeled Dims:
Blue Eagle: 8.5, 14.25, 31.9
Grey Eagle: 8.25, 14.38, 32
Black Eagle: 8.125, 14.25, 31.8

Real Dims:
Blue Eagle: 8.38, 14.2, 31.8
Grey Eagle: 8.32, 14.38, 31.9
Black Eagle: 8.2, 14.28, 32

Are you really saying you can measure the difference between 14.25" WB and 14.2" and if so what does this look like when you skate...?I don't know man...  I like to nerd out on measurements as much as the next PAL but I don't buy it. I measure all my DLX boards and they've all be on point. For some of you, I'm sure some have been mislableled but I think saying over half are mislabelled is something you don't really know for sure.

[j....soy.....]

The one thing I remember was Mason Silva mentioned that the weird sizes ie. 8.18 is actually an 8.25 or 8.125 or something.  ie. they purposely pick a weird number. 

The other thing I was thinking was that maybe moving the factory to china would line up better with shipping things world wide as I'm sure the number of skateboard buyers has changed and grown vs. being mostly north America based.

[manysnakes]

I had an 8.25" Real Kwalks deck which was wider than an 8.5" deck. I get that measuring a deck is tricky and there's no one agreed upon way to determine width, but there was basically no main part of this deck which measured less than 8.45" across.

[LebowskisRug]

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Good luck proving in court that it is not true. I never trust any sticker on a skateboard since half of the DLX dimension stickers are more theory than reality.

[close]

I buy a lot of DLX boards and have never had one labelled incorrectly. Just my experience but it felt necessary to mention it.

[close]

It is well known that the blue Eagle, one of their best selling boards, does not measure as the sticker says. The 8.25 does not measure the same either nor does the 8.125. This is covered ad nauseum on Slap.

Labeled Dims:
Blue Eagle: 8.5, 14.25, 31.9
Grey Eagle: 8.25, 14.38, 32
Black Eagle: 8.125, 14.25, 31.8

Real Dims:
Blue Eagle: 8.38, 14.2, 31.8
Grey Eagle: 8.32, 14.38, 31.9
Black Eagle: 8.2, 14.28, 32

[close]

Are you really saying you can measure the difference between 14.25" WB and 14.2" and if so what does this look like when you skate...?I don't know man...  I like to nerd out on measurements as much as the next PAL but I don't buy it. I measure all my DLX boards and they've all be on point. For some of you, I'm sure some have been mislableled but I think saying over half are mislabelled is something you don't really know for sure.

I can measure it with a tape measure. I do a lot of woodworking on the side and have all sorts of measuring devices that report down to 1/64". Also, if you just take a blue eagle and line up the holes with another 14.25 deck you can see they don't line up or that the rails don't line up. You don't even have to actually measure any of these to see the difference. It is extensively discussed and documented on this website in a thread about DLX shapes.

I said nothing about impact on skating. Just some quick examples from memory about how none of their boards measure what the stickers say and that stickers are not some legally binding document.

[Frank and Fred]

You can measure the difference between 14.2 and 14.25" with a tape measure?

[Ok]

i wouldn’t say none of their stickers match the measurements, buuuuuuuut, they have had several (to my failing mind) instances of an image in their own catalog, of a deck with a sticker, and the measurements underneath said image, conflict with what is on the sticker. the one that jumps out was the cardiel hecka tight construction shape.

the navy blue eagle tapers, quite noticeably, something like 1/4” from front to back.

i’m unsure how much of this is a bbs issue, polar has had some of the same issues with wb measurements being off.

crail boards, from china, are very accurate in their measurements, in my experience.

[Ok]

from my perspective, it doesn’t really ‘matter’. i get too heady with the attempts to skateboard a tape measure, and it rarely works out. the skate industry has always been so shitty, with manufacturing, labeling, qc….dlx used to be kinda hectic and janky, and i loved it more then. now it’s some example of quality, but that was not the case, in my experience, way back when. i bought that shit because it was cool tho.
i’m sure it’s just because i’m so old and tired, but anti-hero and krooked used to have more juice. to me.

[LebowskisRug]

You can measure the difference between 14.2 and 14.25" with a tape measure?

Yup, tape measure with 1/64" or even 1/32" will show and I checked it's 14.18, .07 is 1/16" so any tape measure will capture that. For width I have a set of 12" digital calipers.

But since you seem super hung up on this here is how you know it's not right: go take any other deck that measures 14.25 or 8.5. For width put one on top of the other. For WB line up the holes for one end. Bam- you know it's smaller without measuring. You can repeat for the others!

Or, once again, you can read discussion of this in the DLX shapes thread.

Polar did this for a long time- their decks had a 14.5WB sticker but measured 14.38. Their 8.25 said 14.12 but measured 14.25. With no one enforcing the sticker they can put whatever they want. A few board companies did this during Covid when they temporarily used some birch plies.

[Frank and Fred]

Not hung up just not buying that 1/20" (1.270003mm) measurement means anything at all. And certainly disagree that you can definitively say that half of all DLX stickers are off based on some anecdotal posts on here.

[LebowskisRug]

I never said it meant anything other than that stickers don't mean shit.

[Frank and Fred]

You said, half the stickers are wrong. I am not sure how you can conclude that.

[sharkin]

I’ve never had a DLX board measure dead on the sticker. Either tape set along the concave or straight across, I skated a ton of 8.38 anti hero and real boards that measured 8.475

Sucks they’re moving stuff to china but so long as BBS exists I’ll skate whatever boards they press

[LebowskisRug]

You said, half the stickers are wrong. I am not sure how you can conclude that.

Well, Mr Pedantic, I listed 2 Polar shapes, all but their 8.0 shapes used to be wrong so that's half their shapes and majority of popsicles. They actually corrected it as a brand recently. For DLX I listed 3 well known ones, the 8.28 is wrong per Mason/measuring, the 8.38 is narrower than listed and that's well known, and some of the larger sizes are. Close to half of their popsicles if not more.

Whether it's 10% or 90% the point still stands that a sticker doesn't necessarily mean shit. There's no law that says it has to.

[babywantsbluevelvet]

^the above user calling any other user of this message board pedantic.

[Ghost Face]

The one thing I remember was Mason Silva mentioned that the weird sizes ie. 8.18 is actually an 8.25 or 8.125 or something.  ie. they purposely pick a weird number. 

The other thing I was thinking was that maybe moving the factory to china would line up better with shipping things world wide as I'm sure the number of skateboard buyers has changed and grown vs. being mostly north America based.

The problem here is that a smaller country, that would usually buy a DLX shipment 3 or 4 times a year and get everything on one pallet, will not get Spifires from the China shipment, which could be half the order.

[sorry]

some boards might be as "canadian maple" as some swiss bearings are "swiss"

[roba]

as a skateshop employee i can tell you for a fact that the deluxe boards are off. the 8.25 shape (grey eagle) is near identical to the 8.3 alltimers shape, which actually measures just under 8.375, that 8.32 someone said earlier seems right. i measured them in centimeters and converted that to inches and all of the dimensions were identical, slightly different concaves but that might be because of where each board was on the press, when you put the two boards on top of each other you couldn't see the difference. the 8.125 (black eagle) is also a little wider, i think it's the same shape as the pass-port 8.125 because those are also a little wider, but i don't have a dlx 8.125 in stock rn to compare.

lebowski is also right when it comes to the polar boards, some of the covid decks we've had had the old stickers that said 14.12 wb for the 8.25 popsicle, then the newer boards have a sticker that says 8.25 x 14.25, but they're the exact same shape. same goes for the 8.375s. baker 8.5 x 14.5 x 32 og shape boards are longer than what they're listed as, it's almost 32.125. this shit is all over the place and you can rarely trust the stickers, i mean the polar boards are on point now but they weren't for the longest time.

[Frank and Fred]

I find you can't really compare board dims by putting them on top of each otter as you are comparing bottom concave and top concave. probably works with WB though.

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You said, half the stickers are wrong. I am not sure how you can conclude that.

[close]

Well, Mr Pedantic,

personal insults over less than 2mm? yikes...

[Pbn_jake]

I find you can't really compare board dims by putting them on top of each otter as you are comparing bottom concave and top concave. probably works with WB though.

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You said, half the stickers are wrong. I am not sure how you can conclude that.

[close]

Well, Mr Pedantic,

[close]

personal insults over less than 2mm? yikes...

I will say I had a AH 8.12 hung on the wall for a while because it wasn’t my shape. Then it was brought to my attention that the 8.12 (or whatever) actually measured as 8.25. Broke out that measuring tape and sure as shit…

[LebowskisRug]

I find you can't really compare board dims by putting them on top of each otter as you are comparing bottom concave and top concave. probably works with WB though.

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You said, half the stickers are wrong. I am not sure how you can conclude that.

[close]

Well, Mr Pedantic,

[close]

personal insults over less than 2mm? yikes...

I'm not insulting you, but pointing out that you just want to keep going back and forth on the topic despite multiple people agreeing with me that stickers don't always match reality. Move on dude. This is the last I'm willing to discuss this subject.

[Frank and Fred]

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I find you can't really compare board dims by putting them on top of each otter as you are comparing bottom concave and top concave. probably works with WB though.

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You said, half the stickers are wrong. I am not sure how you can conclude that.

[close]

Well, Mr Pedantic,

[close]

personal insults over less than 2mm? yikes...

[close]

I'm not insulting you, but pointing out that you just want to keep going back and forth on the topic despite multiple people agreeing with me that stickers don't always match reality. Move on dude. This is the last I'm willing to discuss this subject.

Sure you were. I don't doubt it happens. but to say half of Dlx decks are mislabeled seems unlikely to me. and to say you can measure the difference between 1/20" of wheelbase also seems unlikely.  I'm OK being wrong but I think these claims are a little outlandish. Carry on.

[Daewons front truck]

All I know is that Dailan makes Crail boards and they’re my favorite, so this could be a potential non-issue as far as quality goes. What really sucks is raising prices for people who still want to skate the BBS wood.

Dailan has really stepped up their game. I don't know if you were around in 04-09ish, but Crail boards were absolutely terrible back then, super soggy and broke in three days bad. Their boards are great in my opinion now. I have 8.5 chocolate G057 and have been loving it. Dwindle decks last forever for me personally too, however, they are quite stiff. Maybe too stiff for a lot of skaters. On another note I got a new Chinese made DGK deck off OfferUp for $25. I'm not sure what shop it was pressed at, but the first session on it felt nice. I'll still be supporting DLX though, love their products and their customer service was phenomenal in replacing a flatspotted set of formula fours.