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Salad farmer

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Re: israel and palestine
« Reply #120 on: October 21, 2023, 03:38:35 PM »
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read the second sentence they typed, then smash your head into a wall
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Read about the history of Zionism, they were being oppressed in other parts of the world and decided the best course of action was a Jewish state somewhere in the world, eventually rallying around the religious holy land. Many of early Zionist leaders of thought were secular Jews. The idea of it needing to be in Israel came from Christian Zionism, which predates Herzl. The early movement had next to nothing to do with particular religious beliefs and was about the preservation of Jews as a people. All of the religious extremism came later and secondary to the issue of taking land. You can try to be snide but you offer no explanation other than the same nonsense that has been pushed for decades that flattens the issue to the most basic empty analysis, religion is bad and makes everyone hate each other. Before Zionist movements gained ground less than 15% of what is now Israel was Jewish. That is the highest percentage for at least a few hundred years. That 15% figure holds up until the early 30's. By 1948 they were 32% of the population, and after the Nakba in 1949 they were 82% of the population because they killed or forced the evacuation of over 700,000 people. That is settler-colonialism, because you fled persecution in other parts of the world you don't get to take over an area with indigenous people on the land then claim it was all because they hate your religion. This argument is used to de-legitimize the valid complaints of Palestinians. You are doing the same thing the West has done forever, you are simplifying the conflict down to elements that come after the actual issue. It is a way to make it about Muslim vs Jewish and ignore the whole stolen land part.
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Yeah, the west and I are making this about Muslim vs Jewish.  Do you hear yourself?

You can say that religion is not the only factor, or that itís an oversimplification but come the fuck on. 

Why were the Jews being persecuted other places?  Why did the original settlers of the US come? Why were they being persecuted?  What did they try to convince the natives of first fucking thing? 

Itís all religions and the fact that they are incongruous fairy tales makes it hard for people to cohabitate if they actually believe them with any conviction.  Let alone the ones that tell you to actually kill the other.
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Except that Muslims and Jews did live in relative peace for long periods of time under Ottoman rule. With a Jewish population of less than 15% you would think that the blood thirsty Muslims would have wiped them out if this idea that Muslims and Arabs historically have been hell bent on the destruction of the Jewish people were true.
[close]

Yeah and Lincoln represented the republicans, so now we apply that to our understanding of modern republicans andÖ


The ottomans were massacring Christians at the time for being Christian.  The Muslims had at one time earlier annihilated 1/3 of the worlds Jews. 

Religious groups do single out and slaughter other religious groups.  Itís real, Iím not making it up, and itís a major factor in whatís going on obviously.  Why some of you have such trouble calling out religions role is mystifying.

   I would like to see some source for Muslims killing 1/3 of the worlds Jewish population, or which particular time period and place you are talking about this happening. Maybe I have a huge blind spot but those kind of numbers aren't matching up to anything I know of. No one is denying that religion causes conflict and has been responsible for a lot of problems through history. No one is denying that religion is used to justify horrible things, including in the Israel-Palestine conflict but that is not what the original sin is here.

   I explained to you why Israel has chosen to frame things as a religious dispute and why the West is happy to buy into that and ignore that the main concern of Palestinians has always been to have a return to their homeland they were forced out of. Nothing about wanting an Islamic state or the destruction of Jews, or even Israel on religious grounds. That is a moral argument that Israel will never win, so they boosted extremist voices and stopped seriously negotiating with more moderate factions. They set the conditions so that inevitably the more extreme groups they propped up say some wild hard line shit and Israel can walk away from the table. Hamas was halfway willing to recognize Israel as a nation but Israel was unwilling to meet halfway and Hamas backtracked. They are religious but they aren't some simple minded group blinded by only religion, they have tried using political and at times have been open to pragmatism over fundamentalism. Never mind that Israel has extremists even by their own standards in government but they get the benefit of doubt as a country because hey we are a "democracy" at least. You are buying exactly what they are selling but I'm not really sure what your beliefs about the situation are except and I'm half joking here, that everyone involved is dumb because they believe in religion.

   This idea of all sides are equal and everyone is terrible so I don't need to care sucks and is lazy, I'm not sure if that is the case with you or not but I hear that kind of logic a lot on different issues. I also understand it as a natural feeling when there is an overload of information and conflicting ideas, and just feeling helpless to it all but I would hope we try to understand even if we fail to. I won't go back and forth anymore because I think we will just keep going in circles and ultimately whether or not religion is the main factor or one tool to be cynically used within the larger context, the current situation is what it is and dire. I would still like to hear about when Muslims killed 1/3 of the worlds Jewish population though. If you have friends or family effected by the situation I hope they remain safe.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2023, 04:11:30 PM by Salad farmer »

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Re: israel and palestine
« Reply #121 on: October 21, 2023, 06:10:03 PM »
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read the second sentence they typed, then smash your head into a wall
[close]

Read about the history of Zionism, they were being oppressed in other parts of the world and decided the best course of action was a Jewish state somewhere in the world, eventually rallying around the religious holy land. Many of early Zionist leaders of thought were secular Jews. The idea of it needing to be in Israel came from Christian Zionism, which predates Herzl. The early movement had next to nothing to do with particular religious beliefs and was about the preservation of Jews as a people. All of the religious extremism came later and secondary to the issue of taking land. You can try to be snide but you offer no explanation other than the same nonsense that has been pushed for decades that flattens the issue to the most basic empty analysis, religion is bad and makes everyone hate each other. Before Zionist movements gained ground less than 15% of what is now Israel was Jewish. That is the highest percentage for at least a few hundred years. That 15% figure holds up until the early 30's. By 1948 they were 32% of the population, and after the Nakba in 1949 they were 82% of the population because they killed or forced the evacuation of over 700,000 people. That is settler-colonialism, because you fled persecution in other parts of the world you don't get to take over an area with indigenous people on the land then claim it was all because they hate your religion. This argument is used to de-legitimize the valid complaints of Palestinians. You are doing the same thing the West has done forever, you are simplifying the conflict down to elements that come after the actual issue. It is a way to make it about Muslim vs Jewish and ignore the whole stolen land part.
[close]

Yeah, the west and I are making this about Muslim vs Jewish.  Do you hear yourself?

You can say that religion is not the only factor, or that itís an oversimplification but come the fuck on. 

Why were the Jews being persecuted other places?  Why did the original settlers of the US come? Why were they being persecuted?  What did they try to convince the natives of first fucking thing? 

Itís all religions and the fact that they are incongruous fairy tales makes it hard for people to cohabitate if they actually believe them with any conviction.  Let alone the ones that tell you to actually kill the other.
[close]

Except that Muslims and Jews did live in relative peace for long periods of time under Ottoman rule. With a Jewish population of less than 15% you would think that the blood thirsty Muslims would have wiped them out if this idea that Muslims and Arabs historically have been hell bent on the destruction of the Jewish people were true.
[close]

Yeah and Lincoln represented the republicans, so now we apply that to our understanding of modern republicans andÖ


The ottomans were massacring Christians at the time for being Christian.  The Muslims had at one time earlier annihilated 1/3 of the worlds Jews. 

Religious groups do single out and slaughter other religious groups.  Itís real, Iím not making it up, and itís a major factor in whatís going on obviously.  Why some of you have such trouble calling out religions role is mystifying.
[close]

   I would like to see some source for Muslims killing 1/3 of the worlds Jewish population, or which particular time period and place you are talking about this happening. Maybe I have a huge blind spot but those kind of numbers aren't matching up to anything I know of. No one is denying that religion causes conflict and has been responsible for a lot of problems through history. No one is denying that religion is used to justify horrible things, including in the Israel-Palestine conflict but that is not what the original sin is here.

   I explained to you why Israel has chosen to frame things as a religious dispute and why the West is happy to buy into that and ignore that the main concern of Palestinians has always been to have a return to their homeland they were forced out of. Nothing about wanting an Islamic state or the destruction of Jews, or even Israel on religious grounds. That is a moral argument that Israel will never win, so they boosted extremist voices and stopped seriously negotiating with more moderate factions. They set the conditions so that inevitably the more extreme groups they propped up say some wild hard line shit and Israel can walk away from the table. Hamas was halfway willing to recognize Israel as a nation but Israel was unwilling to meet halfway and Hamas backtracked. They are religious but they aren't some simple minded group blinded by only religion, they have tried using political and at times have been open to pragmatism over fundamentalism. Never mind that Israel has extremists even by their own standards in government but they get the benefit of doubt as a country because hey we are a "democracy" at least. You are buying exactly what they are selling but I'm not really sure what your beliefs about the situation are except and I'm half joking here, that everyone involved is dumb because they believe in religion.

   This idea of all sides are equal and everyone is terrible so I don't need to care sucks and is lazy, I'm not sure if that is the case with you or not but I hear that kind of logic a lot on different issues. I also understand it as a natural feeling when there is an overload of information and conflicting ideas, and just feeling helpless to it all but I would hope we try to understand even if we fail to. I won't go back and forth anymore because I think we will just keep going in circles and ultimately whether or not religion is the main factor or one tool to be cynically used within the larger context, the current situation is what it is and dire. I would still like to hear about when Muslims killed 1/3 of the worlds Jewish population though. If you have friends or family effected by the situation I hope they remain safe.

I thought I read that during the Middle Ages durring the caliphates but Iím probably mistaken (an embarrassing overstatement if so).  Iím certainly no expert on the numbers, but what number do you have for people killed in the name of Islam? Is it too many?

I donít think I said ďall sides are equalĒ Islam is clearly a more dangerous world view or religion if followed dogmatically, than any other religion I am aware of, though all unproveable worldviews or religions can (most have) been used to justify killing of the other.

There are obviously other factors but I personally think speaking up against religion and religious killing is a pretty good place to start.  I only starting do so in this thread when someone suggested that it wasnít a factor at all.

TheLurper

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Re: israel and palestine
« Reply #122 on: October 22, 2023, 12:55:51 PM »
I hate to agree with Friedman, but the narrative he lays out in his opinion article on why Israel needs to not completely destroy Gaza has a logical flow. There are lots of moral reasons not do so, but the practical reasons might convince those seeking revenge to think twice.

"In the first week of this conflict, the supreme leader of Iran and Hassan Nasrallah, the leader of the Hezbollah militia in Lebanon, appeared to be keeping very tight control of their militiamen on the border with Israel and in Iraq, Syria and Yemen. But as the second week has gone on, U.S. officials have picked up increasing signs that both leaders are letting their forces more aggressively attack Israeli targets and that they might attack American targets if the United States intervenes. They smell the logic of how much an Israeli invasion of Gaza could help their goal of driving America out of the whole region."

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/19/opinion/biden-speech-israel-gaza.html



My understanding is that reaction of Israel's neighbors in the region to the USA's, Canada's, and generally the West's blind support for Israel did not go over well. I'm a bit annoyed that our initial reaction was as strong as it was, but I think Biden's team did the right thing getting him over there to meet with Israel and tell them to think about the dramatic repercussions that could come from destroying the homes of 2 million as an act of revenge for 1200. We already have a significant fracture line between us and the rest of the world with Ukraine (as much of the non-western world doesn't give a shit either way) and we have a bad history exploiting/meddling in Africa, Latin America, the Middle-East and basically everywhere. We've done some good, but we've done a lot of bad and casting the west as racist villains is not hard to do.

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Madam, I'm Adam

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Re: israel and palestine
« Reply #123 on: October 23, 2023, 10:45:23 AM »
Just wanted to say thank you to all those who support Palestinian rights and freedoms.

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Re: israel and palestine
« Reply #124 on: October 24, 2023, 10:10:13 AM »
Friendship ended with Ukraine and Russia

Now Israel vs. Palestine is my best friend


Seriously though I am in no way qualified or educated enough to have a deep discussion about this but I know enough that this was bound to happen and am surprised it hasnít sooner. Palestinians have been basically living in an open air prison for decades, have had food, water, electricity constantly cut off on top of civilians being targeted and killed by IDF snipers, while Israeli citizens watch and cheer onÖit sickens me that thereís 24/7 coverage of this all over the news only now that theyíre the ones being attacked.

Sila

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Re: israel and palestine
« Reply #125 on: October 24, 2023, 08:47:15 PM »
One of the better run downs I've read on the current situation here..

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1716532694564127072.html

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Re: israel and palestine
« Reply #126 on: October 24, 2023, 11:59:01 PM »

matty_c

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Re: israel and palestine
« Reply #127 on: October 25, 2023, 12:49:38 AM »
Claiming it all ends with us boots on the ground and the dismantling of Iran

You heard it here first
listen to cosmic psychos

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Re: israel and palestine
« Reply #128 on: October 25, 2023, 06:26:43 AM »
Not going to engage the supremely misinformed views here on history-- but folks do basic research.  Salad in particular seems to make and repeat "statements" read on social media with no citations.  I would propose going forward in this thread every poster posts a legitimate source for their statements-- or any source even if not legitimate!  Aside from theories repeated around the camp fire.  All that does is create us versus them sports mentality.  Read for yourself history.

Why dont we follow history of one of three main cities jews were allowed by ottomans to live in during ottoman occupation of the middle east and portions of Europe.   Feel free to check Wikipedia citations, but in general they are pro-palestinian and muslim point of view, and these articles appear relatively fact checked.  Would love any counter citations.

Hebron:

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1517_Hebron_attacks
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Hebron

Tsfat: (aka Safed)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1517_Safed_attacks
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1660_destruction_of_Safed
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1834_looting_of_Safed
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1838_Druze_attack_on_Safed

Bonus: Pre-modern zionist state but modern period attack- with pictures for the folks on here who seem to enjoy such things:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Palestine_riots

Tiberius:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1660_destruction_of_Tiberias

I can post many more examples-- but in particular wanted to focus on the request for evidence of destruction of pre modern zionist but modern Jewish communications in the land of Israel. 

For sure, Jews also migrated from places like Portugal, Spain and N. Africa to Ottoman Empire in 1400s, so the situation is of course complex.  Here is some well cited work on persecution of Jews in North Africa and destruction of their communities (not attributed to ottomans, and in fact resulting in North African jews relocating to Ottoman territory)

https://books.google.com/books?id=9txi3xuuENcC&pg=PA25#v=onepage&q&f=false

To clarify- not meant as an attack on any specific other community in the middle east.  Here is evidence from earlier periods of Crusader destruction of jewish cities.  In Jerusalem, Haifa and elsewhere, entire communities were slaughtered.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_and_the_Crusades

Peace and love to all human beings!  Just think before you adopt a sports mentality when you may not really fully understand the situation.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2023, 06:56:16 AM by BronxRiverKook »

Frank and Fred

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Re: israel and palestine
« Reply #129 on: October 25, 2023, 07:23:30 AM »
Every day, I think to myself this can't get any worse... History is important. History is what's happening. But this slaughter in Gaza has to fucking stop. There's no victory for anyone here.

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Re: israel and palestine
« Reply #130 on: October 25, 2023, 09:36:22 AM »
Free Palestine.

Israel is committing a genocide and our shameful government is backing it to the hilt. Disgusting

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Re: israel and palestine
« Reply #131 on: October 25, 2023, 09:58:08 AM »
One of the better run downs I've read on the current situation here..

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1716532694564127072.html

This was a really great read.  Digestible explanation of whatís at stake for who and why certain parties may do or not do certain things. 

Salad farmer

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Re: israel and palestine
« Reply #132 on: October 25, 2023, 01:03:25 PM »
Not going to engage the supremely misinformed views here on history-- but folks do basic research.  Salad in particular seems to make and repeat "statements" read on social media with no citations.  I would propose going forward in this thread every poster posts a legitimate source for their statements-- or any source even if not legitimate!  Aside from theories repeated around the camp fire.  All that does is create us versus them sports mentality.  Read for yourself history.

Why dont we follow history of one of three main cities jews were allowed by ottomans to live in during ottoman occupation of the middle east and portions of Europe.   Feel free to check Wikipedia citations, but in general they are pro-palestinian and muslim point of view, and these articles appear relatively fact checked.  Would love any counter citations.

Hebron:

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1517_Hebron_attacks
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Hebron

Tsfat: (aka Safed)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1517_Safed_attacks
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1660_destruction_of_Safed
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1834_looting_of_Safed
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1838_Druze_attack_on_Safed

Bonus: Pre-modern zionist state but modern period attack- with pictures for the folks on here who seem to enjoy such things:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Palestine_riots

Tiberius:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1660_destruction_of_Tiberias

I can post many more examples-- but in particular wanted to focus on the request for evidence of destruction of pre modern zionist but modern Jewish communications in the land of Israel. 

For sure, Jews also migrated from places like Portugal, Spain and N. Africa to Ottoman Empire in 1400s, so the situation is of course complex.  Here is some well cited work on persecution of Jews in North Africa and destruction of their communities (not attributed to ottomans, and in fact resulting in North African jews relocating to Ottoman territory)

https://books.google.com/books?id=9txi3xuuENcC&pg=PA25#v=onepage&q&f=false

To clarify- not meant as an attack on any specific other community in the middle east.  Here is evidence from earlier periods of Crusader destruction of jewish cities.  In Jerusalem, Haifa and elsewhere, entire communities were slaughtered.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_and_the_Crusades

Peace and love to all human beings!  Just think before you adopt a sports mentality when you may not really fully understand the situation.

   What did I post that isn't true? Seriously tell me which piece of information you don't believe and I will find a source or tell you how I arrived at that conclusion based on other evidence. You tell me how I've posted stuff I "read on social media" then seriously posted a bunch of wikipedia links, about instances that are mostly within the context of Jewish people being caught between two nations at war, or during occupations either by Ottomans or British. Did you actually read the wiki entries or just made a list of times Jews were killed or displaced in the Levant? No on has said that Jewish people didn't suffer in the Middle East before modern times but we had someone in here claiming Muslims wiped out 1/3 of the world's Jewish population. The stuff you are posting are events where hundreds at a time are killed or forced out of homes and in several cases these incidents are over a hundred years apart. What happens in that time in between? Also what does the Crusaders treatment of Jews have to do with any of this? You link the 1929 riots and massacre but offer no context regarding the Balfour Declaration or Britain making conflicting promises to Arabs and Jews. https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-and-non-jewish-population-of-israel-palestine-1517-present
This shows everything you need to know about the actual issue of Palestine and Israel, it still boils down to settler-colonialism. I understand there is a high level of empathy that must be given to Jews forced out of the countries they lived in for hundreds of years in Europe but it doesn't mean you get to remove an indigenous population somewhere unrelated.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2023, 01:17:54 PM by Salad farmer »

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Re: israel and palestine
« Reply #133 on: October 25, 2023, 01:26:44 PM »
"I would like to see some source for Muslims killing 1/3 of the worlds Jewish population, or which particular time period and place you are talking about this happening. "

During the time periods I mention, given Jewish settlement was allowed primarily in 3 cities in Israel, indeed there were explosions and murders of 1/3 of certain settlements/cities and at various points fleeing to other places in the Ottoman Empire and/or Europe or Syria/Lebanon.  Again, I fully accept that Ottoman Empire did not have full control centralized in the modern sense, and that jews did live for hundreds of years in many countries that ultimately become the British mandate of palestinine


A few specific responses:

- All of those entries describe Ottoman Turk sanctioned pograms (at least in the ones from pre 1900 time period) after ousting of Mamlauks.  During some of these, the jewish population of Israel was indeed reduced by 1/3 or more.  The Arab population in some of these time periods was very small as well.  Jerusalem was a majority christian city for hundred of years.  Many of these time periods do not appear tabulated in the numbers you provided.  I dont believe there are numbers that are full census from some of these time periods.

- Someone else in this thread mentioned Ottoman agressions in the Middle East.  I could also list many atrocities against Christians as the other person noted.  That said, I agree overall these were pograms in the context of a larger Ottoman- Turk conquest of the mamlauks, but why is the murder, looting and rape excused if directed at Jews?  I am in no way transporting this forward to imply that this is related to a moral justification for the current war, but its a well known fact that both the crusader empire kingdom of Jerusalem and the pre-zionist Ottomans, as well as other arab nations, had persistent issues with pograms against jews - state sponsored at various levels and with tacit or explicit approval of leaders during various periods.  At some points Jerusalem and other places were temporarily rid of jews by Crusaders-- agreed.

- The population link that you posted has huge gaps as you can see, and doesn't really cover this period.  Covers more of the zionist period.  In 1800s and 1900s huge amounts of Jews and Arabs moved to Israel-- this is well documented.  But the idea that they all came from Europe is fault.  Most were from the Middle East.  Happy to provide sources if anyone is curious -- but all of the following countries' Jewish histories during the 1800s to late 1900s and mass expulsions to Israel can easily be researched: (a) Yemen, (b) Morocco, (c) Syria, (d) Egypt, (e) Libya, (f) Iran (relatively large population allowed to remain), (g) Bahrain, (h) Afghanistan, (i) other parts of "British Mandate" (i.e., historic TransJordan, etc.), ...

- I agree that empathy for all people is important

- What do you expect Jews in Israel to do in terms of place to live and survival?  More than 50% of Jews in Israel descend from Jews from middle eastern lands expelled in 1800s and 1900s (as noted above), stripped of their property and forced to move to Israel. Yes, some Israelis descend from Ashkanaz jewish refugees in Israel who are from Europe in the modern times, but trace descendant to the Middle East-- again less relevant than the reality that they live in Israel and hopefully we can agree dont deserve to be abducted, raped or executed.

- Assuming you dont plan to expel all Jews from Israel, how do you suggest Israel reacts to the attacks on its citizens including women and children recently?  I can accept if you think some sort of negotiated settlement is required now, but long term what is the solution in Gaza specifically?  Jews are long gone from Gaza despite what you might believe.  What do you suggest Israel does at this point to free its hostages, or is that not relevant?  If you are a pacifist, I understand that view.  If not, what level of response do you think is appropriate, or are acts of terrorism against civilians justified while Gaza border cut off by both Egypt and Israel in response to threats of violence, instability, rape and looting.

Again- I have family and friends with views on both sides (and indeed, killed and injured in the attacks), just hard for me to understand capture and execution of women and children act as an act of valor or resistance.  I certainly accept that I'm not unbiased.

Compassion definately should rule the day.  Optimally Hamas can be removed from power in some kind of non-violent way.  I dont venture to have an opinion on what the answer is at all, would just urge folks to be compassionate to their neighbors and try to remember there are humans involved on both sides who have valid feelings and claims.  Would urge everyone to consider their words to their neighbors and friends that may be impacted amongst jews and muslims and peace to all.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2023, 01:48:45 PM by BronxRiverKook »

Salad farmer

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Re: israel and palestine
« Reply #134 on: October 25, 2023, 03:52:41 PM »
"I would like to see some source for Muslims killing 1/3 of the worlds Jewish population, or which particular time period and place you are talking about this happening. "

During the time periods I mention, given Jewish settlement was allowed primarily in 3 cities in Israel, indeed there were explosions and murders of 1/3 of certain settlements/cities and at various points fleeing to other places in the Ottoman Empire and/or Europe or Syria/Lebanon.  Again, I fully accept that Ottoman Empire did not have full control centralized in the modern sense, and that jews did live for hundreds of years in many countries that ultimately become the British mandate of palestinine


A few specific responses:

- All of those entries describe Ottoman Turk sanctioned pograms (at least in the ones from pre 1900 time period) after ousting of Mamlauks.  During some of these, the jewish population of Israel was indeed reduced by 1/3 or more.  The Arab population in some of these time periods was very small as well.  Jerusalem was a majority christian city for hundred of years.  Many of these time periods do not appear tabulated in the numbers you provided.  I dont believe there are numbers that are full census from some of these time periods.

- Someone else in this thread mentioned Ottoman agressions in the Middle East.  I could also list many atrocities against Christians as the other person noted.  That said, I agree overall these were pograms in the context of a larger Ottoman- Turk conquest of the mamlauks, but why is the murder, looting and rape excused if directed at Jews?  I am in no way transporting this forward to imply that this is related to a moral justification for the current war, but its a well known fact that both the crusader empire kingdom of Jerusalem and the pre-zionist Ottomans, as well as other arab nations, had persistent issues with pograms against jews - state sponsored at various levels and with tacit or explicit approval of leaders during various periods.  At some points Jerusalem and other places were temporarily rid of jews by Crusaders-- agreed.

- The population link that you posted has huge gaps as you can see, and doesn't really cover this period.  Covers more of the zionist period.  In 1800s and 1900s huge amounts of Jews and Arabs moved to Israel-- this is well documented.  But the idea that they all came from Europe is fault.  Most were from the Middle East.  Happy to provide sources if anyone is curious -- but all of the following countries' Jewish histories during the 1800s to late 1900s and mass expulsions to Israel can easily be researched: (a) Yemen, (b) Morocco, (c) Syria, (d) Egypt, (e) Libya, (f) Iran (relatively large population allowed to remain), (g) Bahrain, (h) Afghanistan, (i) other parts of "British Mandate" (i.e., historic TransJordan, etc.), ...

- I agree that empathy for all people is important

- What do you expect Jews in Israel to do in terms of place to live and survival?  More than 50% of Jews in Israel descend from Jews from middle eastern lands expelled in 1800s and 1900s (as noted above), stripped of their property and forced to move to Israel. Yes, some Israelis descend from Ashkanaz jewish refugees in Israel who are from Europe in the modern times, but trace descendant to the middle easy.

- Assuming you dont plan to expel all Jews from Israel, how do you suggest Israel reacts to the attacks on its citizens including women and children recently?  I can accept if you think some sort of negotiated settlement is required now, but long term what is the solution in Gaza specifically?  Jews are long gone from Gaza despite what you might believe.  What do you suggest Israel does at this point to free its hostages, or is that not relevant?

Again- I have family and friends with views on both sides (and indeed, killed and injured in the attacks), just hard for me to understand capture and execution of women and children act as an act of valor or resistance.  I certainly accept that I'm not unbiased.

Compassion definately should rule the day.  Optimally Hamas can be removed from power in some kind of non-violent way.  I dont venture to have an opinion on what the answer is at all, would just urge folks to be compassionate to their neighbors and try to remember there are humans involved on both sides who have valid feelings and claims.  Would urge everyone to consider their words to their neighbors and friends that may be impacted amongst jews and muslims and peace to all.

Again, what did I lie about? You accused me of getting all my information from social media but give no examples, just an attack on me. Provide some instances where I'm "supremely misinformed." I have occasionally kept up with Haaretz even before these most recent issues as well as Arab news sources. Growing up I've talked with friend's grandparents who were personally forced out by the Nakba, and have many friends or friends with family still in Palestine and south Lebanon. I've spent quite a lot of time in the Middle East though not over the last 15 years. This is not an issue I jumped into in 2023.

1/3 of the Jews in Israel is much different than the claim of 1/3 of the world's Jewish population and it is misleading to try to re-frame that as just in Israel when the claim was originally made by someone trying to point out how bloodthirsty the Muslims were. I also am not sure that any of those events you linked would actually be anywhere close to 1/3 of the Jewish population of Israel at the times they occurred or are you meaning 1/3 of the Jewish population in Safed and Hebron? No one claimed that the rape, murder, and looting directed at Jews was excusable but it is important to provide all the context not because it makes it alright but because it lets you understand how things unfolded and the dynamics at play. Do I think Lehi were Nazis because they tried to establish contact with them? No, I understand that they made political decisions about who was the biggest threat to their goals and that any enemy of the Brits was worth exploring a relationship with. When there are multiple groups under an occupying power or empire things can be very messy and it is important not to dumb it down and flatten the issues.

Also listing dozens of times Jews where mistreated hundreds of years ago in history and putting in events where a few hundred people died or a few thousand were forced to flee in comparison to the displacement of over 700,000 is a little absurd.

When was the Arab population in the area ever very small? That is a pretty wild statement. I also can't find any evidence of the Jewish population being higher than 20% at any point between 1500 and 1920. If we are talking about demographics before that time period, what is the point in relation to Palestine-Israel today? Whether Jews migrated to Israel from North Africa or Europe in larger numbers makes no difference to the argument that they do not have a rightful claim or are justified in forcing indigenous people off the land but I'm not sure about your belief that North African and Arab Jews were half the population when Israel was founded, or if you mean they were half the Jews in Israel prior to 1930, 1900 or some other point. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliyah

   If you do have some citations available that show what the Jewish population was at different times in the Levant between 1500 and 1880 I would like to see them, I'm finding it difficult to find any kind of demographic breakdowns over that time period. We do have a rough idea of what it was in 1517 though and what it was in 1882. Are you saying during this time there was some massive jump in the Jewish population that made them close to 40% that was later eliminated or expelled?

Asking Palestinians to provide the solution to their occupation and subjugation is also absurd. I don't think it is reasonable to end the state of Israel or kick everyone out but it is kind of funny when that is exactly what Israel did to the local population. Realistically there is nothing Palestinians can do at this point that would get Israel on board for a fair two state solution. Israel is too far down the rabbit hole with extremism and now calling for the genocide of Palestinians. The western governments with power to influence the situation have given Israel free reign to do whatever they want at this point. If Hamas should be removed for terrorist attacks, why doesn't that hold true for the government of Israel? Do you see the double standard? As has been the case for decades, Israel holds all the cards. Arab attitudes towards Israel are irreparably damaged at this point with the siege and bombardment of Gaza. At this point Hamas and the Israeli government should both face charges of war crimes.

I am truly sorry that you have people you care about that have died or been hurt in this conflict.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2023, 04:54:41 PM by Salad farmer »

231st Street

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Re: israel and palestine
« Reply #135 on: October 25, 2023, 04:53:39 PM »
I intepreted whoever's 1/3 post to mean genocide of jews in Middle East region or jewish settlements, not world. 

Separately, during the crusades, Jews and Muslims were killed and Christians became majority in many cities. This is what I meant to refer to re: periods with less Arabs and Jews in Israel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Jerusalem .  Additionally, of course the time periods prior to the Arab conquest under Christian Byzantine rule of Israel.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palaestina_Secunda

In 1492, Jews who had settled in Italy/Spain and parts of France during Roman settlement tmes (or been taken there as slaves) along with Muslims, were ethically cleansed from the Iberian Peninsula.

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alhambra_Decree

This led to a mass emigration by jews to the middle least, in particular to ottoman Turkish centers of commerce that have been ravaged by the crusades.  So yes, a huge amount of Jews moved to that region on the invite of ottoman leaders, leading to a mass increase in jewish population n 1500s leading up to some of the events I mentioned.

My point is simply that this is a complex region with a complex history of displacement in which Jews were at various points forcibly moved around the middle east (and other peoples and cultures), and that as well as Palestinian historical narratives are in play. 

No people's claim is based on an ancient historical narrative only. 

I dont disagree that in 1800 to mid 1940s Muslims majority likely in British mandate, but I do think there is a reason the statistics aren't so easy to come by in that the 1500 to 1800 time period ( frankly I have trouble understanding the jewish library estimates for the earlier periods like 1200 in the chart you cited, but thats not your issue and Ive certainly seen that source before and am not contesting its accuracy).  I encourage you to look up Benjamin of Tudela if you'd like to read first hand accounts of jewish communities in middle east during medieval times. 

To your last question: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mizrahi_Jews_in_Israel - middle eastern jews at over 60% as of 2005.  I saw roughly 51% or so in a CIA document from the 80s I have printed out.  At founding, I'm not sure I have seen that info or if it exists.  I do think it is relevant for people to understand that jews are indigenous to the middle east, and that "middle eastern" and "European jews" are in fact one people, with some varying customs but a large degree of relationships.  Yes populations moved around Middle East in post-colonial power vacuum, as well as to and from Europe before and since.  People whose property were stolen in Egypt for example (and in fact, all of the places in the Middle East I previously mentioned shortly after their independence) and had to go to Israel as refugees have no where to return. 

So therefore all sides have to come to a solution without killing civilians if possible.  I would think should be everyones' goals.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2023, 05:36:39 PM by BronxRiverKook »

Salad farmer

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Re: israel and palestine
« Reply #136 on: October 25, 2023, 05:35:00 PM »
I intepreted whoever's 1/3 post to mean genocide of jews in Middle East region or jewish settlements, not world. 

Separately, during the crusades, Jews and Muslims were killed and Christians became majority in many cities. This is what I meant to refer to re: periods with less Arabs and Jews in Israel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Jerusalem .  Additionally, of course the time periods prior to the Arab conquest under Christian Byzantine rule of Israel.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palaestina_Secunda

In 1492, Jews who had settled in Italy/Spain and parts of France during Roman settlement tmes (or been taken there as slaves) along with Muslims, were ethically cleansed from the Iberian Peninsula.

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alhambra_Decree

This led to a mass emigration by jews to the middle least, in particular to ottoman Turkish centers of commerce that have been ravaged by the crusades.  So yes, a huge amount of Jews moved to that region on the invite of ottoman leaders, leading to a mass increase in jewish population n 1500s leading up to some of the events I mentioned.

My point is simply that this is a complex region with a complex history of displacement in which Jews were at various points forcibly moved around the middle east (and other peoples and cultures), and that as well as Palestinian historical narratives are in play. 

No people's claim is based on an ancient historical narrative only. 

I dont disagree that in 1800 to mid 1940s Muslims majority likely in British mandate, but I do think there is a reason the statistics aren't so easy to come by in that the 1500 to 1800 time period ( frankly I have trouble understanding the jewish library estimates for the earlier periods like 1200 in the chart you cited, but thats not your issue and Ive certainly seen that source before and am not contesting its accuracy).  I encourage you to look up Benjamin of Tudela if you'd like to read first hand accounts of jewish communities in middle east during medieval times. 

To your last question: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mizrahi_Jews_in_Israel - middle eastern jews at over 60% as of 2005.  I saw roughly 51% or so in a CIA document from the 80s I have printed out.  At founding, I'm not sure I have seen that info or if it exists.  I do think it is relevant for people to understand that jews are indigenous to the middle east, and that "middle eastern" and "European jews" are in fact one people, with some varying customs but a large degree of relationships.  Yes populations moved around Middle East in post-colonial power vacuum, as well as to and from Europe before and since.  People whose property were stolen in Egypt for example and had to go to Israel as refugees have no where to return. 

So therefore all sides have to come to a solution without killing civilians if possible.  I would think should be everyones' goals.


Okay so you are talking about the demographics around 1200 in the first link and that has nothing to do with the modern issue at all. It also doesn't say that Arabs were a small percentage of the population at that time either it said the population was mainly native Christians and Muslims, the rulers were European Crusaders. That is a bit absurd in the context of this issue anyways. Your second link is about expulsion of Jews from Spain and while it says some fled to the Ottoman empire it doesn't give numbers or imply in the text that these were massive numbers that changed the demographics of Israel/Palestine area. If these numbers were so large how was the Jewish population of the area such a low percentage by 1882? Whether or not the majority of immigrants at some points were Maghrebi or Sephardic ends up mattering little when you see who achieved positions of power and influence early in the Israeli state. Most of that immigration came after Arab countries forced them out as a result of Israel kicking the Palestinians out, it was a rejection of colonialism and Zionism. So they can say well today over 50% of our population is Sephardic, Maghrebi, or Mizrahi but that is working backwards to justify the expulsion of people who lived on the land for generations. It was European Jews who predominately made policy and set up the systems in place. Europeans were the main drivers of Zionism and without Zionism the modern state of Israel would not exist.

231st Street

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Re: israel and palestine
« Reply #137 on: October 25, 2023, 05:44:11 PM »
Expand Quote
I intepreted whoever's 1/3 post to mean genocide of jews in Middle East region or jewish settlements, not world. 

Separately, during the crusades, Jews and Muslims were killed and Christians became majority in many cities. This is what I meant to refer to re: periods with less Arabs and Jews in Israel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Jerusalem .  Additionally, of course the time periods prior to the Arab conquest under Christian Byzantine rule of Israel.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palaestina_Secunda

In 1492, Jews who had settled in Italy/Spain and parts of France during Roman settlement tmes (or been taken there as slaves) along with Muslims, were ethically cleansed from the Iberian Peninsula.

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alhambra_Decree

This led to a mass emigration by jews to the middle least, in particular to ottoman Turkish centers of commerce that have been ravaged by the crusades.  So yes, a huge amount of Jews moved to that region on the invite of ottoman leaders, leading to a mass increase in jewish population n 1500s leading up to some of the events I mentioned.

My point is simply that this is a complex region with a complex history of displacement in which Jews were at various points forcibly moved around the middle east (and other peoples and cultures), and that as well as Palestinian historical narratives are in play. 

No people's claim is based on an ancient historical narrative only. 

I dont disagree that in 1800 to mid 1940s Muslims majority likely in British mandate, but I do think there is a reason the statistics aren't so easy to come by in that the 1500 to 1800 time period ( frankly I have trouble understanding the jewish library estimates for the earlier periods like 1200 in the chart you cited, but thats not your issue and Ive certainly seen that source before and am not contesting its accuracy).  I encourage you to look up Benjamin of Tudela if you'd like to read first hand accounts of jewish communities in middle east during medieval times. 

To your last question: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mizrahi_Jews_in_Israel - middle eastern jews at over 60% as of 2005.  I saw roughly 51% or so in a CIA document from the 80s I have printed out.  At founding, I'm not sure I have seen that info or if it exists.  I do think it is relevant for people to understand that jews are indigenous to the middle east, and that "middle eastern" and "European jews" are in fact one people, with some varying customs but a large degree of relationships.  Yes populations moved around Middle East in post-colonial power vacuum, as well as to and from Europe before and since.  People whose property were stolen in Egypt for example and had to go to Israel as refugees have no where to return. 

So therefore all sides have to come to a solution without killing civilians if possible.  I would think should be everyones' goals.
[close]


Okay so you are talking about the demographics around 1200 in the first link and that has nothing to do with the modern issue at all. It also doesn't say that Arabs were a small percentage of the population at that time either it said the population was mainly native Christians and Muslims, the rulers were European Crusaders. That is a bit absurd in the context of this issue anyways. Your second link is about expulsion of Jews from Spain and while it says some fled to the Ottoman empire it doesn't give numbers or imply in the text that these were massive numbers that changed the demographics of Israel/Palestine area. If these numbers were so large how was the Jewish population of the area such a low percentage by 1882? Whether or not the majority of immigrants at some points were Maghrebi or Sephardic ends up mattering little when you see who achieved positions of power and influence early in the Israeli state. Most of that immigration came after Arab countries forced them out as a result of Israel kicking the Palestinians out, it was a rejection of colonialism and Zionism. So they can say well today over 50% of our population is Sephardic, Maghrebi, or Mizrahi but that is working backwards to justify the expulsion of people who lived on the land for generations. It was European Jews who predominately made policy and set up the systems in place. Europeans were the main drivers of Zionism and without Zionism the modern state of Israel would not exist.

Have you ever spoken with a middle eastern jew?  Above is the sort of thing that sounds like you read online talking points.  Again to take away agency of middle eastern jews and focus solely on 1940s as the only relevant time period, and therefore Israel as a European project due to the Balfour declaration leading up.

Just to quote you:  "Arab countries forced them out" as if thats a slam dunk on the fact that middle eastern jews live in Israel.  in response of creation of Israel is what you said above.  Just think about what you're saying and the increase in population in increase in the time period in the chart you posted from a cause and effect perspective.   Id send you citations showing the explosion of jews from the entire Middle East to Israel, but won't be relevant as I'm sure your already aware, but since others are reading, if anyone curious for further info let me know.

And so therefore its okay to (a) be mad state for indigenous minority created, (b) attack said state, (c) expel all co-religionists to such state from entire Middle East upon independence and (d) say its okay because those folks just got stuck there out of national Palestinian "resistance" to European Jews.  I won't push this any further, as we clearly have different views, but appreciate your time. 

Salad farmer

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Re: israel and palestine
« Reply #138 on: October 25, 2023, 06:23:38 PM »
Expand Quote
Expand Quote
I intepreted whoever's 1/3 post to mean genocide of jews in Middle East region or jewish settlements, not world. 

Separately, during the crusades, Jews and Muslims were killed and Christians became majority in many cities. This is what I meant to refer to re: periods with less Arabs and Jews in Israel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Jerusalem .  Additionally, of course the time periods prior to the Arab conquest under Christian Byzantine rule of Israel.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palaestina_Secunda

In 1492, Jews who had settled in Italy/Spain and parts of France during Roman settlement tmes (or been taken there as slaves) along with Muslims, were ethically cleansed from the Iberian Peninsula.

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alhambra_Decree

This led to a mass emigration by jews to the middle least, in particular to ottoman Turkish centers of commerce that have been ravaged by the crusades.  So yes, a huge amount of Jews moved to that region on the invite of ottoman leaders, leading to a mass increase in jewish population n 1500s leading up to some of the events I mentioned.

My point is simply that this is a complex region with a complex history of displacement in which Jews were at various points forcibly moved around the middle east (and other peoples and cultures), and that as well as Palestinian historical narratives are in play. 

No people's claim is based on an ancient historical narrative only. 

I dont disagree that in 1800 to mid 1940s Muslims majority likely in British mandate, but I do think there is a reason the statistics aren't so easy to come by in that the 1500 to 1800 time period ( frankly I have trouble understanding the jewish library estimates for the earlier periods like 1200 in the chart you cited, but thats not your issue and Ive certainly seen that source before and am not contesting its accuracy).  I encourage you to look up Benjamin of Tudela if you'd like to read first hand accounts of jewish communities in middle east during medieval times. 

To your last question: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mizrahi_Jews_in_Israel - middle eastern jews at over 60% as of 2005.  I saw roughly 51% or so in a CIA document from the 80s I have printed out.  At founding, I'm not sure I have seen that info or if it exists.  I do think it is relevant for people to understand that jews are indigenous to the middle east, and that "middle eastern" and "European jews" are in fact one people, with some varying customs but a large degree of relationships.  Yes populations moved around Middle East in post-colonial power vacuum, as well as to and from Europe before and since.  People whose property were stolen in Egypt for example and had to go to Israel as refugees have no where to return. 

So therefore all sides have to come to a solution without killing civilians if possible.  I would think should be everyones' goals.
[close]


Okay so you are talking about the demographics around 1200 in the first link and that has nothing to do with the modern issue at all. It also doesn't say that Arabs were a small percentage of the population at that time either it said the population was mainly native Christians and Muslims, the rulers were European Crusaders. That is a bit absurd in the context of this issue anyways. Your second link is about expulsion of Jews from Spain and while it says some fled to the Ottoman empire it doesn't give numbers or imply in the text that these were massive numbers that changed the demographics of Israel/Palestine area. If these numbers were so large how was the Jewish population of the area such a low percentage by 1882? Whether or not the majority of immigrants at some points were Maghrebi or Sephardic ends up mattering little when you see who achieved positions of power and influence early in the Israeli state. Most of that immigration came after Arab countries forced them out as a result of Israel kicking the Palestinians out, it was a rejection of colonialism and Zionism. So they can say well today over 50% of our population is Sephardic, Maghrebi, or Mizrahi but that is working backwards to justify the expulsion of people who lived on the land for generations. It was European Jews who predominately made policy and set up the systems in place. Europeans were the main drivers of Zionism and without Zionism the modern state of Israel would not exist.
[close]

Have you ever spoken with a middle eastern jew?  Above is the sort of thing that sounds like you read online talking points.  Again to take away agency of middle eastern jews and focus solely on 1940s as the only relevant time period, and therefore Israel as a European project due to the Balfour declaration leading up.

Just to quote you:  "Arab countries forced them out" as if thats a slam dunk on the fact that middle eastern jews live in Israel.  in response of creation of Israel is what you said above.  Just think about what you're saying and the increase in population in increase in the time period in the chart you posted from a cause and effect perspective.   Id send you citations showing the explosion of jews from the entire Middle East to Israel, but won't be relevant as I'm sure your already aware, but since others are reading, if anyone curious for further info let me know.

And so therefore its okay to (a) be mad state for indigenous minority created, (b) attack said state, (c) expel all co-religionists to such state from entire Middle East upon independence and (d) say its okay because those folks just got stuck there out of national Palestinian "resistance" to European Jews.  I won't push this any further, as we clearly have different views, but appreciate your time.

I lived in the Middle East for over a decade, of course I have spoken to many Middle Eastern Jews. I've heard a range of stories from being completely accepted in Israeli society to others facing discrimination and being marginalized because they are Middle Eastern Jews. How many prime ministers and presidents of Israel have been Mizrahi or Sephardic? You are again trying to dictate what my experience and knowledge on the subject is without knowing me and making claims about where I get information. You are using the same talking points the Israeli government puts out trying to argue they are not a settler-colonial state but I'm not making claims about your experiences.

Addressing your points,
a. It is okay to be mad that a minority group created a state and forced you out, especially when many of those people have lived in Palestine for less than 100 years.
b. Attacking said state is okay.
c. Expelling Jews from the other Arab countries is not acceptable, I can see arguments made for Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, and Egypt but I would ultimately not agree with those arguments.
d. I'm not sure what you are trying to say here but I'm guessing this might be related, Israel was the logical place for them to end up after expulsion in the late 40's and afterwards and you can't hold that against the Jews who fled Arab nations to Israel.

GT

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Re: israel and palestine
« Reply #139 on: October 25, 2023, 07:31:05 PM »
As an Israeli I will only say this"

Get your guns ready and protect your family Jihad will not stop with Israel and Jews.

As for the war, if you haven't live there or not knowlagable when it comes to history your view is not applicable no matter which side you side with.

Other than that ✌🏽❤

Frank and Fred

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Re: israel and palestine
« Reply #140 on: October 25, 2023, 08:56:13 PM »
As an Israeli I will only say this"

Get your guns ready and protect your family Jihad will not stop with Israel and Jews.

As for the war, if you haven't live there or not knowlagable when it comes to history your view is not applicable no matter which side you side with.

Other than that ✌🏽❤

With all due respect, we will continue to offer our take on it as our tax dollars are funding the Israeli war machine when many of us would prefer that not be the case. Israel simply cannot behave this way without the sanction and support of our elected officials. I wrote to my senator and representative for the first time today asking them both to demand a cease fire. As a new American citizen it was my fist act of civic duty.

In all sincerity though, I wish peace for you and yours also.

GT

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Re: israel and palestine
« Reply #141 on: October 26, 2023, 02:03:33 AM »
Expand Quote
As an Israeli I will only say this"

Get your guns ready and protect your family Jihad will not stop with Israel and Jews.

As for the war, if you haven't live there or not knowlagable when it comes to history your view is not applicable no matter which side you side with.

Other than that ✌🏽❤
[close]

With all due respect, we will continue to offer our take on it as our tax dollars are funding the Israeli war machine when many of us would prefer that not be the case. Israel simply cannot behave this way without the sanction and support of our elected officials. I wrote to my senator and representative for the first time today asking them both to demand a cease fire. As a new American citizen it was my fist act of civic duty.

In all sincerity though, I wish peace for you and yours also.

I am happy that you can use your democracy given rights! And most deffintly should do so as much as you can!

I believe this war is actually making the US money not just spending it, or at least some people in the US are making money of it lots of money!


pugmaster

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Re: israel and palestine
« Reply #142 on: October 26, 2023, 02:14:45 AM »
Expand Quote
Expand Quote
As an Israeli I will only say this"

Get your guns ready and protect your family Jihad will not stop with Israel and Jews.

As for the war, if you haven't live there or not knowlagable when it comes to history your view is not applicable no matter which side you side with.

Other than that ✌🏽❤
[close]

With all due respect, we will continue to offer our take on it as our tax dollars are funding the Israeli war machine when many of us would prefer that not be the case. Israel simply cannot behave this way without the sanction and support of our elected officials. I wrote to my senator and representative for the first time today asking them both to demand a cease fire. As a new American citizen it was my fist act of civic duty.

In all sincerity though, I wish peace for you and yours also.
[close]

I am happy that you can use your democracy given rights! And most deffintly should do so as much as you can!

I believe this war is actually making the US money not just spending it, or at least some people in the US are making money of it lots of money!

The military industrial complex is a huge fucking problem in the US. Money is being siphoned from the citizens to pad the wallets of few.
"...We got the nuclear worm over here..."

Never forget:
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231st Street

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Re: israel and palestine
« Reply #143 on: October 26, 2023, 04:14:39 AM »
I won't get into what your "middle eastern jewish friends" have told you. Certainly are left wing people out there amongst middle eastern jews and jews in general. But, vast majority of sefardi and Mizrahi jews are highly traditional and supportive of Israel's right to exist certainly.  The Sefardi political party is basically the kingmaker in the Israeli parliament and heavily supports the Likud government.  All of this is easily verifiable. 


b. Attacking said state is okay.


I find it really interesting that you state "attacking said state" is okay.  Do you understand that these are human beings?  Unarmed and at a dance party and slaughtered by terrorists at a far higher proportion to general population of country versus any other terrorist attack (i.e., attack against civilians by non-state actor intended to cause fear and be used in propaganda).  If you look at the history, this follows a long history of various peoples attacking jewish minority in Israel for hundreds of years.

That is the part that is so bizarre about the anti-Israel rhetoric.  Yes, it is totally acceptable to be feel that Israel and the US should never bomb terrorist organizations hiding in midst of civilian targets, even in retaliation for heinous acts. But where the debate ends for me is when I see the "left' so openly support genocide against a minority group.  I agree that what is going on right now in Gaza is terrible.  I have never met a Jew or Israeli that would prefer to take military action in response to hundreds of civilians being killed.  What do you expect vis a vi the hostages?  Leave them there, because liberal Europeans and the majority group in the region dont agree that the state should exist 70 years later.

 I clearly do not feel that way, and feel that indeed some action has to be taken to protect innocent men, women and children.

On your last point-- my point isn't that it was "logical" for them to move to Israel.  In fact many were forced to leave facing genocide or rape, and had their property confiscated. Thats the reason middle eastern jews came to Israel with nothing and faced a very difficult time.

Here is another link for those who may not have devoted as much time to forming a world view I certainly won't change and is extremely alien I hope from the way the vast majority of Americans at least think:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_world

By this source, which again seems fairly "balanced" (i.e., edited by the pro-palestian internet warriors)-650,000 of these people went to Israel.   Yes, I am trying to explain that indeed these people then had to move somewhere, and yes, the fact that Palestinians got the short end when the Arab governments were taking all Jewish houses in Syria, etc etc, is not a positive. But it was 70 + years ago, and humans are humans.  None of the links I posted are meant to portray others as not having valid claims for right to live and exist-- everyone definitely has a right to live and exist!

Everyone can read the "push and pull" arguments in the above article written from the historiographic viewpoints of both "schools", but remember all of these people are human beings being "swapped" and used as pawns by governments and militaries of various countries.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2023, 05:04:56 AM by BronxRiverKook »

addie pray

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Re: israel and palestine
« Reply #144 on: October 26, 2023, 05:16:43 AM »
As an Israeli I will only say this"

Get your guns ready and protect your family Jihad will not stop with Israel and Jews.

As for the war, if you haven't live there or not knowlagable when it comes to history your view is not applicable no matter which side you side with.

Other than that ✌🏽❤

my view is that israel has murdered 7 thousand people. feel free to correct me...

btw this is making lots of people money. as a matter of fact, the existence of the state of israel makes a lot of people in the USA money. hence us defending it (or right now i guess israel doesn't have a standing army capable of fighting for itself since your soldiers keep plugging each other accidentally so our need to cover our investment is twofold).


bronx river kook who were the lehi and what is the nakba


« Last Edit: October 26, 2023, 05:23:52 AM by spectral image »

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Re: israel and palestine
« Reply #145 on: October 26, 2023, 06:40:18 AM »
Since I've been posting links and more requested:

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(militant_group) : Your asking if I accept that a right wing jewish paramilitary / terrorist organization existed in pre-state Israel?  Yes.  Do I accept they killed both jews and non-jews and certainly didn't act in accordance with Jewish law?  Yes.  I'm busy for next few hours, but one fascinating and disturbing episode I can't remember the name of was the assassination of a Jewish poet who worked with arab and orthodox jewish anti-nationalists in early zionist times.  He was basically shot in the head leaving synoguge.  This is the story I've been told, but can't find it online.  Its a famous event as the murdered man was sort of a strange character.  More to come.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba#:~:text=The%20Nakba%20(Arabic%3A%20النكبة%2C,majority%20of%20the%20Palestinian%20Arabs

- Nakba.  I wont venture to define this.  But yes, I accept that there have been displacements and atrocities committed by people's under all "flags' against each other.  This is also relevant history in the discussion and has been discussed in the thread.  I haven't fact checked the wiki article, but my posts were not intended to "hide" anything.

Salad farmer

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Re: israel and palestine
« Reply #146 on: October 26, 2023, 09:19:13 AM »
I won't get into what your "middle eastern jewish friends" have told you. Certainly are some leftists out there amongst middle eastern jews, but vast majority of sefardi and Mizrahi jews are highly traditional and supportive of Israel's right to exist certainly.  The Sefardi political party is basically the kingmaker in the Israeli parliament and heavily supports the Likud government.

Expand Quote

b. Attacking said state is okay.

[close]

I find it really interesting that you state "attacking said state" is okay.  Do you understand that these are human beings?  Unarmed and at a dance party and slaughtered by terrorists at a far higher proportion to general population of country versus any other terrorist attack (i.e., attack against civilians by non-state actor intended to cause fear and be used in propaganda).  If you look at the history, this follows a long history of various peoples attacking jewish minority in Israel for hundreds of years.

That is the part that is so bizarre about the anti-Israel rhetoric.  Yes, it is totally acceptable to be feel that Israel and the US should never bomb terrorist organizations hiding in midst of civilian targets, even in retaliation for heinous acts. But where the debate ends for me is when I see the "left' so openly support genocide against a minority group.  I agree that what is going on right now in Gaza is terrible.  I have never met a Jew or Israeli that would prefer to take military action in response to hundreds of civilians being killed.  What do you expect vis a vi the hostages?  Leave them there, because liberal Europeans and the majority group in the region dont agree that the state should exist 70 years later.

 I clearly do not feel that way, and feel that indeed some action has to be taken to protect innocent men, women and children.

On your last point-- my point isn't that it was "logical" for them to move to Israel.  In fact many were forced to leave facing genocide or rape, and had their property confiscated. Thats the reason middle eastern jews came to Israel with nothing and faced a very difficult time.

Here is another link for those who may not have devoted as much time to forming a world view I certainly won't change and is extremely alien I hope from the way the vast majority of Americans at least think:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_world

By this source, which again seems fairly "balanced" (i.e., edited by the pro-palestian internet warriors)-650,000 of these people went to Israel.   Yes, I am trying to explain that indeed these people then had to move somewhere, and yes, the fact that Palestinians got the short end when the Arab governments were taking all Jewish houses in Syria, etc etc, is not a positive. But it was 70 + years ago, and humans are humans.

You won't get into what they told me? What did I say they told me that seems far fetched? That some felt completely accepted in Israeli society or that others didn't feel as welcome? Were you wanting me to touch on how their parent/grand parents felt about being expelled from where they lived before Israel? Honestly that wasn't something that came up as a focus and if conversations moved towards serious things it was usually about current Israeli events or Iran. I don't get where you think any of them told me they didn't think Israel had a right to exist, that is absurd. Or that it was mostly leftists, they were people I have met in my life traveling, not attending demonstrations or some shit.

I understand that Sefardi and Mizrahi Jews tend to be more traditional and that kind of environment can contribute to someone with differing views not feeling welcome in their own community. Experiences are different for everyone, I'm not going to pretend like the ones I've been told are some great cross sample. Many of those experiences have family situations or economic differences that shade them heavily. I might not have been clear enough in earlier post when I'm talking about European Jews I do not mean anything to do with them being of some different bloodline or any conspiracy thing like that. I mean European in the culture and education they had, carrying European ideas. During the early years of Israel the policy guiding the country was in my understanding not very influenced by Sephardic or Mizrahi Jews. We know Israel changed a lot over time politically and it is more conservative and religious now then in other times so dynamics change.

When I say attacking said state is okay, I do not want anyone killed ever, but in reaction to decades of oppression and the removal of peaceful means of resolution like BDS movement, continued settler expansion and attacks, apartheid, then yes attacking said country is okay. It is horrible but it is the tool available. What Hamas did is beyond what anyone should be comfortable with though, myself included. I don't think any of the people who died in the Hamas attack deserved to die regardless if they were Zionist, secular, Arab Israeli, a foreign worker, or Bedouin. The kidnapping aspect is also horrible, these aren't soldiers or diplomats. It is abhorrent, and for many people it will set back Palestinian legitimacy quiet a bit.

 As you said though, these are real peoples lives and Palestinians are killed every day with the normal citizens taking the brunt of it. The condition is insanity and is constant and often violent and disrespectful on level that hurt the core of a human being. I know the scale was massive and that massacre in one day is a unfathomable. In the 2014 Gaza war almost 1500 Palestinian civilians were killed and less than 10 Israeli civilians died, it's not all in one terrible moment but it is a continual terrible series of days one after another. That scale is not unfathomable for the Palestinians, already hundreds had died this year before all of this happened. The idea that Israel can defend itself by indiscriminately bombing apartment buildings and everything else in response is indefensible to me. The death toll is somewhere near 7000 in Gaza now with up to 3000 children. That is twice as many children as people who died in the massacre. They dropped more bombs in a week than some years the US did in Afghanistan. At this point we have people actually ready to try and wipe out the Palestinian people. Things have steadily gotten worse over the years and all signs pointed towards Israel continuing to get worse with the oppression. Pretending Hamas didn't commit this most recent terrorist attack, what kind of action could they have taken to move towards a Palestinian state or bringing Israel to negotiate with them? But we've gone over this in other parts of the thread, Israel wanted Hamas in power so they could justify a blockade, tie the entire Palestinian movement to Hamas and get a reaction to where you can call all Palestinians animals and float genocide to the world.

What should they do or have done about the hostages? I honestly don't know. I would like to think that Hamas would legitimately hold them as bargaining chips and treat them well but I'm not going to pretend like I think that is the case despite what the one released hostage might have experience. I think that if Israel had stopped bombing for a bit to see if negotiation was an option would of been the best choice. I understand the want for revenge and Netanyahu needing to appear strong making that a difficult sell but I wish that it was explored. At this point I just don't know what any of the parties can do from here that will deescalate to anything that looks like a path forward without starting with a ceasefire and lots of medical aid and food coming in.

I didn't mean logical to have any negative connotations or whatever you are reading into it. I meant that Israel was a state they would be welcome in, they faced terrible situations and I'd expect them to end up there after being forced out. They can't be expected to return to these places obviously. I really didn't understand what you had wrote for d. but Arab countries expelling Jews was wrong and brutal. I'll give you that it also occurred with antisemitic tropes and sentiments, I am not an apologist for what happened. Addressing every single thing takes forever and people inevitably  leave stuff out. I don't think the legitimacy of Palestinian statehood hinges on if people recognize the full scope of the expulsion of Jews from Arab countries.

I'll agree to disagree with you with and leave it alone. I fully realize I am annoying and that is not intentional but I've tried to be civil and talking to you has been rough I'm going to just assume you need to be given some grace at this time. I truly hope for peace for you and your family and friends.

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Re: israel and palestine
« Reply #147 on: October 26, 2023, 10:30:19 AM »
Been working and skating today so don't have time to go over the history of Irgun and other paramilitary organizations in Israel.  I agree also all part of the story.

This is the type of quote I find troubling:

"But we've gone over this in other parts of the thread, Israel wanted Hamas in power so they could justify a blockade, tie the entire Palestinian movement to Hamas and get a reaction to where you can call all Palestinians animals and float genocide to the world."

This simply isn't true.  This is where your otherwise fairly cogent post jumps the shark.  Thats the conspiracy theory element that takes your argument from a fairly compassionate post an statement to something else-- its actually Jews/zionist fault that Hamas is in power.  This is another statement that begs citations and examination, but I'll have to log in more later, and dont want to monopolize the conversation.

Nothing personal in any of this-- my family's situation there is what it is, I mainly posted because as folks bring up Nakba and other areas of history, the Israeli/Jewish/Christian (and other minority of Middle East) side should be shared as well to give people and understanding of the depth of the situation and humanity.  Im not doubting what folks have said to you over the years at all-- just in my experience knowing many many middle eastern jews well, ive certainly heard the view that Ashkenazi are snobs, weirdo europeans, etc., but they tend to be the most "extreme" people I know in the sense of pro - Israeli expansion.  I just think your bringing up Israeli class/cultural practice differences is not really relevant to the current violence, so thats why I didn't want to get into that element of it further.  It also really doesn't matter to your point aside from the perspective of framing the history of the region and how we ended up in this situation.

None of my posts are intended to minimize the suffering of any civilian population and hopefully there is (has to be) a peaceful outcome available. 
« Last Edit: October 26, 2023, 10:38:50 AM by BronxRiverKook »

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Re: israel and palestine
« Reply #148 on: October 26, 2023, 10:56:43 AM »
oh i dont have time to go over relevant historical factors, im just reminding people that the jewish people have had a rough go of it historically. i dont know why Fatah isn't a relevant political factor in palestine anymore, have you heard of the 1521 judeo-samaic war

Palestinian authority is Fatah.  Most Israelis would like PA in control of Gaza.  I'd be curious for any Israelis' or Palestinians on here's view on this specific point though.  I thought essentially they were the same org or the predecessor.  Yes Yitzak Rabin was assassinated by arguably a "jewish terrorist" as well as Palestinians and British in particular during the mandate period.  Edit-- I realized you maybe referring to the theories that Yasser Arafat was poisoned in his old age somehow by Mossad, despite no evidence being found by outside European and Russian investigators-- I honestly dont know much about this.  Certainly his "peace partner" Rabin was assassinated so I understand the paranoia.  Though honestly I thought he was fairly old and out of power by the time he passed (Yasser Arafat)-- I'm certainly not an expert on how the PA was founded.

If your point is that you'd like me to recognize that Zionists had illegal paramilitary (ie., arguably terrorist type organizations) I would agree with that.  Nakba I just dont feel comfortable defining as a non-Palestinian or Arab-Israeli on a skateboard message board.  I think I have an idea of the displacements that occurred, but its really not my place to define it.  If your asking if during the war of independence civilians were displaced by paramilitary groups, and in pre-state there was "terroristic" type activity against British etc I dont disagree with that.  Again, all part of a sad and violent history. 

Bringing back to present- someone else reference their representative.  I would encourage folks to google my liberal democratic congressman Ritchie Torres' statements on the situation.  They are pretty balanced for folks who are curious to hear a more nuanced opinion than far left or right.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2023, 01:19:15 PM by BronxRiverKook »

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Re: israel and palestine
« Reply #149 on: October 26, 2023, 02:19:22 PM »
Been working and skating today so don't have time to go over the history of Irgun and other paramilitary organizations in Israel.  I agree also all part of the story.

This is the type of quote I find troubling:

"But we've gone over this in other parts of the thread, Israel wanted Hamas in power so they could justify a blockade, tie the entire Palestinian movement to Hamas and get a reaction to where you can call all Palestinians animals and float genocide to the world."

This simply isn't true.  This is where your otherwise fairly cogent post jumps the shark.  Thats the conspiracy theory element that takes your argument from a fairly compassionate post an statement to something else-- its actually Jews/zionist fault that Hamas is in power.  This is another statement that begs citations and examination, but I'll have to log in more later, and dont want to monopolize the conversation.

Nothing personal in any of this-- my family's situation there is what it is, I mainly posted because as folks bring up Nakba and other areas of history, the Israeli/Jewish/Christian (and other minority of Middle East) side should be shared as well to give people and understanding of the depth of the situation and humanity.  Im not doubting what folks have said to you over the years at all-- just in my experience knowing many many middle eastern jews well, ive certainly heard the view that Ashkenazi are snobs, weirdo europeans, etc., but they tend to be the most "extreme" people I know in the sense of pro - Israeli expansion.  I just think your bringing up Israeli class/cultural practice differences is not really relevant to the current violence, so thats why I didn't want to get into that element of it further.  It also really doesn't matter to your point aside from the perspective of framing the history of the region and how we ended up in this situation.

None of my posts are intended to minimize the suffering of any civilian population and hopefully there is (has to be) a peaceful outcome available.

Admittedly the jump to use it as justification for war crimes is my own and based on the direction Netanyahu and like minded people in government were taking things before October 7 and how they have reacted after. The idea that Israel propped up Hamas is not some conspiracy at all though, many people have shared this idea for years.  https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
There is also WaPo and WSJ articles. You can argue that Israel's motives are not that sinister but the facts on the ground end up being what they are, atrocities are piled upon atrocities with Israel ignoring international law yet again while the politicians call for a second Nakba and using clearly genocidal language.

You saying Irgun was maybe a terrorist organization is so wild, they were clearly one and members found their way into Israeli government from the very start. They are celebrated by Israel for resisting colonial occupation. That is why it is so ironic and Israel's stance is inconsistent. Playing around this issue and pretending not to see the inconsistency along with some of your other arguments show me that you really don't care to actually be open.

Also Ritchie Torres? https://www.jpost.com/opinion/article-754380
https://www.columnblog.com/p/ritchie-torres-represents-the-poorest

His statements are laughable, the idea that you hold that up as the standard to which American politicians should strive to on this issue is ridiculous. Your reasoning for not discussing the Nakba is also insane. I really thought you were just caught up too close to things but you really are just trying to derail shit and put out justifications unrelated to the current situation.