Author Topic: Changes under Trump 2.0  (Read 188618 times)

0 Members and 10 Guests are viewing this topic.

LUGR

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 381
  • Rep: 70
Re: Changes under Trump 2.0
« Reply #840 on: April 03, 2025, 02:44:07 PM »
Expand Quote
Expand Quote
Elon on stage in Wisconsin while trying to give money away to influence the WI Supreme Court vote while simultaneously taking jabs at George Soros for interfering with the government is some grade-A irony.
[close]

And failed. Crawford won.
[close]

He and Pillow Guy are already crying "stolen election."

I was actually really surprised I had not heard this claim immediately after the L. Maybe the zone is so flooded I missed it…

TastyBurrito

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • SLAP Pal
  • ******
  • Posts: 3199
  • Rep: 951
Re: Changes under Trump 2.0
« Reply #841 on: April 03, 2025, 03:26:49 PM »
Expand Quote
Expand Quote
Expand Quote
Elon on stage in Wisconsin while trying to give money away to influence the WI Supreme Court vote while simultaneously taking jabs at George Soros for interfering with the government is some grade-A irony.
[close]

And failed. Crawford won.
[close]

He and Pillow Guy are already crying "stolen election."
[close]

I was actually really surprised I had not heard this claim immediately after the L. Maybe the zone is so flooded I missed it…

Liberation Day news flooded it out.

But yea, as soon as Crawford won, he broke out with the "stolen election" shit.

Jehoshaphat Augustus

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • SLAP Pal
  • ******
  • Posts: 2693
  • Rep: 713
  • fake fake reckids reckids
Re: Changes under Trump 2.0
« Reply #842 on: April 03, 2025, 04:15:34 PM »
Crawford beat Schimel by the wide enough margin so these idiots will have to pay (and lose) their money to do a recount!
I hope they keep spinning them nazi tires...lil goose stepping morons that they are...

TastyBurrito

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • SLAP Pal
  • ******
  • Posts: 3199
  • Rep: 951
Re: Changes under Trump 2.0
« Reply #843 on: April 03, 2025, 04:17:31 PM »
Crawford beat Schimel by the wide enough margin so these idiots will have to pay (and lose) their money to do a recount!
I hope they keep spinning them nazi tires...lil goose stepping morons that they are...

Sad thing is, they'll say that the large margin is proof that Dems cheated. And all without evidence. And MAGATs will still eat it all up.

pugmaster

  • Trade Count: (+5)
  • SLAP Pal
  • ******
  • Posts: 4480
  • Rep: 2426
Re: Changes under Trump 2.0
« Reply #844 on: April 03, 2025, 04:53:17 PM »
America getting the full venture capital treatment.

They’re “busting the joint out”

https://youtu.be/ZPtjyqgZAUk?si=t6OdwmoYLwqB0DJf

DUUUUDE!!!! This is exactly how I feel about this.

I checked my comment on the YT video and it was 2 years ago lol
Never forget:
Rusty_Berrings, 360 frip, Yapple Dapple, Bubblegum Tate, Marc Johnson

Rusty Shackleford

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • SLAP Pal
  • ******
  • Posts: 1157
  • Rep: 171
  • you know about goretex?
Re: Changes under Trump 2.0
« Reply #845 on: April 03, 2025, 05:33:27 PM »




if only someone had warned me that the man is an asshole!!

TastyBurrito

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • SLAP Pal
  • ******
  • Posts: 3199
  • Rep: 951
Re: Changes under Trump 2.0
« Reply #846 on: April 03, 2025, 05:46:17 PM »




if only someone had warned me that the man is an asshole!!

The "I wanted him to hurt others -- not me" crowd is in the FO phase of FAFO.

pugmaster

  • Trade Count: (+5)
  • SLAP Pal
  • ******
  • Posts: 4480
  • Rep: 2426
Re: Changes under Trump 2.0
« Reply #847 on: April 03, 2025, 05:47:21 PM »
When advancing scientific research is no longer a priority, society is FUCKED. I wish that anti-vaccine folks would no longer be eligible for any and all medical care.
Never forget:
Rusty_Berrings, 360 frip, Yapple Dapple, Bubblegum Tate, Marc Johnson

TastyBurrito

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • SLAP Pal
  • ******
  • Posts: 3199
  • Rep: 951
Re: Changes under Trump 2.0
« Reply #848 on: April 03, 2025, 06:06:51 PM »
When advancing scientific research is no longer a priority, society is FUCKED. I wish that anti-vaccine folks would no longer be eligible for any and all medical care.

This. My wife’s a nurse and had to deal with this shit during COVID — Insane morons who are anti-vaxx but came to the hospital when they needed help, but still were still doubling down on anti-vaxx sentiments while simultaneously being dicks to the medical staff.

Like, I wish I could’ve been there to tell them to take their asses home.


Ex Lion Tamer

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 171
  • Rep: 133
  • Nate Jones fanboi
Re: Changes under Trump 2.0
« Reply #849 on: April 03, 2025, 06:09:17 PM »
it's all about restricting stem cell research, that's the only reason I go to church.


TheLurper

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • SLAP Pal
  • ******
  • Posts: 4165
  • Rep: 962
  • Bronze Topic Start Bronze Topic Start : Start a topic with over 1,000 replies.
Re: Changes under Trump 2.0
« Reply #850 on: April 03, 2025, 11:44:06 PM »
Expand Quote




if only someone had warned me that the man is an asshole!!
[close]

The "I wanted him to hurt others -- not me" crowd is in the FO phase of FAFO.

She is disgusting. Even after Trump called McCain a loser, refused to fly the flag at half mast, and all the other disrespect directed at her father, she choose to lick Trump's nuts.

And its not like she is avg person who actually has to worry about how she'll survive without a paycheck.  She has the luxury of wealth, which means she doesn't need to cave.

Quote from: ChuckRamone
I love when people bring up world hunger. It makes everything meaningless.
"That guy is double parked."
"Who cares? There are people starving to death! Besides, how does that affect you? Does it lessen the joy of parking?

roba

  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • SLAP Pal
  • ******
  • Posts: 4718
  • Rep: 982
Re: Changes under Trump 2.0
« Reply #851 on: April 04, 2025, 12:41:42 AM »
did she delete the second tweet? i wanted to go and make fun of her in the replies

h00man

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • SLAP Pal
  • ******
  • Posts: 4429
  • Rep: 259
Re: Changes under Trump 2.0
« Reply #852 on: April 04, 2025, 12:25:21 PM »
the Nintendo Switch 2 preorder is delayed in the US cause of tariffs.

https://www.theverge.com/news/643483/nintendo-switch-2-preorders-delayed-tariffs

If the tariffs are enforced as Trump promised, I dont think anyone will be buying it. Its already overpriced for a Nintendo product IMO.
Being a slap pal is a zero accomplishment

h00man

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • SLAP Pal
  • ******
  • Posts: 4429
  • Rep: 259
Re: Changes under Trump 2.0
« Reply #853 on: April 04, 2025, 12:28:04 PM »
When advancing scientific research is no longer a priority, society is FUCKED. I wish that anti-vaccine folks would no longer be eligible for any and all medical care.

agreed.

Though there are cases where some people are not able to get the vaccine (COVID at least), that can cause complications to their health. Very understandable, so these peeps should be exempt.

However, if you deny vaccinations because "i dId mAH ResEarCh", then fuck em.
Being a slap pal is a zero accomplishment

TastyBurrito

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • SLAP Pal
  • ******
  • Posts: 3199
  • Rep: 951
Re: Changes under Trump 2.0
« Reply #854 on: April 04, 2025, 12:58:14 PM »
the Nintendo Switch 2 preorder is delayed in the US cause of tariffs.

https://www.theverge.com/news/643483/nintendo-switch-2-preorders-delayed-tariffs

If the tariffs are enforced as Trump promised, I dont think anyone will be buying it. Its already overpriced for a Nintendo product IMO.

LOL. Games will be $100/pop.

WashingtonNECKTIE

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • SLAP Pal
  • ******
  • Posts: 2059
  • Rep: 472
  • Precision Posture
Re: Changes under Trump 2.0
« Reply #855 on: April 04, 2025, 03:49:28 PM »
You will have nothing and you will like it
Wow sorry, didn't realise I was dealing with a sick cunt here

Painted Baby

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • SLAP Pal
  • ******
  • Posts: 5956
  • Rep: 1835
  • They're trying to build a prison
Re: Changes under Trump 2.0
« Reply #856 on: April 04, 2025, 03:58:30 PM »
Expand Quote
the Nintendo Switch 2 preorder is delayed in the US cause of tariffs.

https://www.theverge.com/news/643483/nintendo-switch-2-preorders-delayed-tariffs

If the tariffs are enforced as Trump promised, I dont think anyone will be buying it. Its already overpriced for a Nintendo product IMO.
[close]

LOL. Games will be $100/pop.
Is it maybe time to change the retail price to reflect direct to consumer digital sales and send GameStop off to that big dustbin in the sky? The could keep them at $70 or less that way pretty easily.

TheLurper

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • SLAP Pal
  • ******
  • Posts: 4165
  • Rep: 962
  • Bronze Topic Start Bronze Topic Start : Start a topic with over 1,000 replies.
Re: Changes under Trump 2.0
« Reply #857 on: April 05, 2025, 02:34:51 AM »
While trying to keep some consistency in my thinking--like, most people on the left I was anti-globalization in the 90s and 00s and I was also anti-making boards in Mexico/China--I'm trying to understand why I don't like the tariffs. I proudly wore my made in an American union shop Bernie T-shirt in 2015/16, but why am I so ferociously annoyed with these tariffs?

An obvious reason might be age. Now that I'm finally getting my footing in this stupid post 1980s economy, I don't want to deal with a dramatic change. It puts me at risk for job loss as the EU is an important customer for my company and they might respond harshly towards my employer in particular. After being poor for so long, I don't want to pay (a lot) more for absolutely everything. I've been saving to buy shit that would furnish a home and now that shit is out of reach again. And, we just went through a period of inflation, I'm not ready for another round. Being a millennial is exhausting.

On a continued personal note, I lived in rural America/Canada for 7 years. The hatred and vitriol of the locals was draining. Their inability to appreciate the financial sacrifices urban people make for them, inability to appreciate the knowledge generated in schools/university, and continual desire to touch the stove was annoying. And, the rural people were either retirees who aren't going to work a factory job or they were people my age who were doing drugs or had never attempted to come up. Life is hard out there, but those who I lived next to actively made it worse. My romanticization of workers was met with a harsh reality.



On a less personal note, I don't trust this will be good for workers because of Trump's and the GOP's past. Trump is anti-union, Trump is anti-any and all worker protections, Trump has a habit of fucking over his contractors, and I feel the right has rebelled against "global free-trade" in recent years, but still want to race to the bottom within the USA forcing low wages, job insecurity, and even child labor into the mix. It is hard to believe they want what is best for anyone but the ultra-wealthy.  This would be a complete about-face for a party who championed fucking workers for my entire life. It is hard to believe that they would do anything other than continue to fuck us.


So what is Trump's case for the tariffs? Why is Trump so willing to put the stock market, jobs, and quality of life at risk for so many?

Why Trump won't give a shit about pain or turmoil
Starting with the second question, which is easier to answer, I believe that he is embracing the idea that this will cause pain but it will be better because he likes Milei who is fighting inflation in Argentina. Milei's fight is increasing poverty of the people there and causing lots of pain, but inflation is coming down. It is no accident that Milei was on stage with Musk for the chainsaw show. Musk was inspired by and re-created Milei's chainsaw image. (Funny enough Milei is doing everything he can to get zero tariff trade with the USA.)



Why does Trump like tariffs?
What Trump and friends say: 1) they are there to increase revenue to off-set his tax cuts for the wealthy. 2) they are there to increase production in America, which would eliminate the tax revenue generation in claim 1. 3) his supporters say it is just negotiations or a way to wield power over those he doesn't like, but also negates the tax revenue claim and the produce in America claim.

None of these make sense next to each other as they contradict one another, so let's pretend this is about increasing production in America.

How, so how can we make the case for Trump in terms of tariffs being good for America
Pre-1930s America (where Trump is looking in terms of his stupid MAGA nonsense)
To the dismay of Democrats (the party of Southern agriculture who didn't want reciprocal tariffs on their goods), Republicans (the party of Northern industry) used tariffs to create space for the American industrial economy to grow. Tariffs at the time are higher than our peers and was one of the taxes we used to pay the bills instead of an income tax:
"The developing world, relied on 12 to 16 to 18 percent tariff walls, the United States’ tariffs ranged from 30 percent to 40 percent."

For developing countries tariffs--when done properly--can protect a domestic industry as it develops expertise, efficiency, and so on. This is called "import substitution" and its what Brazil, India, and other places did when trying to develop a few industries when trying to come up in the global economy.

In 1930, America's chemical industries, heavy manufacturing, and financial industries are ready to take on the world and we reduce tariffs.

Skipping forward to the 70s
Manufacturing jobs start to get hammered by technology, moving to right-to-work non-union states, and then off-shore. Obviously, this hollows out rural America in the north and midwest. Manufacturing moves to the sunbelt and overseas where wages and job protections are less. Today a Ford technician makes about 72K a year and a Honda technician makes 52K because Honda doesn't use union labor.

From the early 80s forward, we enter into the world of free trade + government austerity towards citizens. Reagan/Thatcher fucked workers as hard as they possibly could. Enter the age where unions and government are the problem not the solution. Clinton's "New Democrats" weren't much better. Remember, to the dismay of Democrats, Clinton worked with Gingrich to fuck over the welfare system, campaigned as pro-death penalty, and fired nearly 400K federal workers in his time in office.

In the 90s we fully leave our manufacturing economy and enter into a service/knowledge economy that is split between low wage WalMart jobs and high paying jobs like a lawyer to software engineer.



This is the dominant mantra until 2016 when 4chan conservatives really start to have a voice via Trump and his pack of idiots. The right starts to adopt the idea global free-trade is bad, but libertarian no holds barred anti-immigrant race to the bottom capitalism within nation-states will solve all of our problems and produce prosperity for all.

Trump 1.0. We tariff China.
Predictably this does nothing but fuck over those Americans selling to China and those of us who now have to foot the bill for Trump's subsidies to farmers, because manufacturers just switch to Vietnam and a whole host of other low wage countries. Tariffs need to be done on products to protect an industry not countries.

The tariffs might have protected some steel jobs, but we lose manufacturing jobs in the industries that rely on steel to produce goods. And, I'm not even sure it protected any steel jobs. The CPA a lobbying firm Trump is leaning on to justify his tariffs show that among 4 big steel firms, job actually declined post-tariffs : 86K to 83K jobs in steel. "The tariffs are actually helping [businesses] make the transition to newer, cleaner, lower-cost technology. This is bad news for workers at the older facilities [but good for industry]"



Trump 2.0. We tariff everyone on everything.

Well at least we learned that tariffing just China wasn't going to work. It is still clumsy, but there is some growth in thought here.


image stolen from Jacobian

We still have a few problems though:
Just like last time, not all things being imported are consumer goods. The majority of shit from Mexico isn't a final consumer good. Instead, they are inputs for products that will be turned into consumer goods. This fucks over the companies relying on those inputs. And, unless Americans start aligning their diets with the seasons, where else are we going to get avocados in February?

Also, financial capital can still flow across the world. Any good investor wants to make money, they don't give a fuck how they make money. Nothing says investing in a factory to produce t-shirts in America is where the best investment returns will come from. It still might be smarter for someone to invest in a Thai factory to produce shit to sell to the EU, Africa, and Asia.

How will this turn out?
In terms of number of jobs:
I have little faith this will increase job opportunities. I expect the opposite. The tariffs in Trump 1.0 didn't seem to increase the number of jobs. Inflation of input cost will cause some companies to go out of business and new technology will reduce need for more workers and result in layoffs for those who hung on with outdated machinery.

In terms of salaries:
I'm not sure this will result in amazing salaries. There will be a few heavy machining jobs that pay awesome wages, but I don't expect Hanes to start paying American Apparel wages to workers. Even if we got a lot of manufacturing back, a lot of it is going to pay shit wages. I don't imagine working at the Tyson chicken slaughter house becomes a good job without another Jungle and a left leaning administration that wants to protect workers. And, we won't have the talent needed for a lot of these jobs.


What is missing
For the tariffs to actually help workers, firms need to re-invest instead of business as usual shareholder value, stock buy backs, and so on. We need to require firms to do this, but instead, we are going to engage in typical fascist capitalism, government intervenes in the market, but let's the capitalists retain their profits.

We need job training for workers. We need protections for workers. We need environmental protections for our water and air. I don't want factories coming back just to make a bunch of cancer allies.


So, why am I against these, but would probably support Bernie doing something similar?
If Bernie would do something similar, I think it would be completely different. It would come with things that immediately help workers and don't immediately fuck consumers. I think Bernie would attempt to reduce any sort of transitional pain. Not tell everyone, "eat a dick" and then go golfing spending millions of tax payer money on his own properties.

And, I think Bernie would do it with honesty, which the Trump admin is not doing.

I don't think he'd do blanket tariffs on all products. I think he'd work to figure out, which high value products should be produced here and which low value products can be produced elsewhere.

So, I am and the rest of the left a bunch of hypocrites? Am I the liberal Phil Ochs sang about?
To some degree, sure. But, like those on the right, our interpretation changes based not just the goal, but how its done, the motivation to get it done, and the history/context surrounding the actor that all affect perception.

Pretending the goal here is to get Americans jobs that pay decent wages, this is something the right has resisted (and would likely still resist) today if done in a different fashion. There is a willingness to crash the economy, pay higher prices, and induce suffering for blue collar jobs, but when it comes to supporting low level service workers, the right complained everything would cost too much if everyone got a living wage. They complained that it would ruin the economy and things would cost too much. The assumed sacrifice is probably less than the one we are facing now, but they are willing to make us all suffer so rural people can have living wages in fantasy factories. And maybe the fact that city people and educated people will suffer is part of the appeal.

I feel this is a lot like this is like Brexit and Grexit. Brexit had the support of the right and Grexit had the support of the left. The same exit, but with different motivations and likely different ways of completing the same action.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2025, 03:14:27 AM by TheLurper »

Quote from: ChuckRamone
I love when people bring up world hunger. It makes everything meaningless.
"That guy is double parked."
"Who cares? There are people starving to death! Besides, how does that affect you? Does it lessen the joy of parking?

pugmaster

  • Trade Count: (+5)
  • SLAP Pal
  • ******
  • Posts: 4480
  • Rep: 2426
Re: Changes under Trump 2.0
« Reply #858 on: April 05, 2025, 03:27:29 PM »
Found an FDT 15-minute chorus edit for those of you who want to drive around protests blasting music.


Never forget:
Rusty_Berrings, 360 frip, Yapple Dapple, Bubblegum Tate, Marc Johnson

Top-Heavy Hookjaw

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 98
  • Rep: 25
Re: Changes under Trump 2.0
« Reply #859 on: April 05, 2025, 11:40:03 PM »
Crazy to see a pro Trump/Musk rally break out at my local Tesla dealer. Doughy inbreds waving Trump flags in the parking lot.

LUGR

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 381
  • Rep: 70
Re: Changes under Trump 2.0
« Reply #860 on: April 06, 2025, 09:18:45 AM »
Funny how them diesel drivers love them electric Teslers now.

Rusty Shackleford

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • SLAP Pal
  • ******
  • Posts: 1157
  • Rep: 171
  • you know about goretex?
Re: Changes under Trump 2.0
« Reply #861 on: April 06, 2025, 10:42:24 AM »


posted en route to yet another golf outing.
Translation: the "weak" deserve no sympathy, no assistance, no hope.  We the "strong" have our boot on their throat which is the way things ought to be.  Who are the "weak" by the way?  Working people watching their savings go down the drain?

TheLurper

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • SLAP Pal
  • ******
  • Posts: 4165
  • Rep: 962
  • Bronze Topic Start Bronze Topic Start : Start a topic with over 1,000 replies.
Re: Changes under Trump 2.0
« Reply #862 on: April 06, 2025, 01:19:45 PM »
I've been thinking about the tariffs and trying to think what should this look like? What are legit motivations for it occur?

How would someone who isn't dumb and mean end the Reagan economy? And, why are we letting the some of the dumbest people on the planet--own the end of this era that was so hard on so many people and blocked so many Millennials  from a basic form of the "American Dream"?

Motivation for on-shoring:
-Human rights abuses in contemporary manufacturing
-Environmental abuse in contemporary manufacturing
-Support for American workers/offer the Rust Belt some new life. Although, with increases in productivity/technology much of the Rust Belt wouldn't really benefit.
-Moving away from a service/knowledge economy. Although, someone could make the case, service jobs just need to pay more. If these jobs offered better wages we wouldn't be clamoring over this 1950s economic model.

Process:
-Targeted tariffs on products we want to produce instead of tariffs on countries
-Timeline to return - allow companies to prepare
-Rule based - No opportunity patronage/no companies can profess loyalty to president/party for favorable terms (the corruption surrounding exemptions is going to be insane)
-Increase social security to offset the obvious losses in the market/people's 401Ks
-Subsidize some necessities to help people weather the economic storm this is going to bring, especially after we all weathered the post-pandemic inflation
-Smart review/consolidation of environmental regulations
-Smart review/consolidation of all the lawsuits someone can bring to block development (think California's high speed rail)
-Strong protections for workers (we aren't bringing manufacturing back to America to have American sweatshops again)
-Injection of money into community colleges to make three-year hybrid trade-liberal arts degrees
-Strong support for workers rights, safety, and so on
-Push against "right to work" laws
-Offering incentives and blockers to make sure companies reinvest in their workers instead of continuing to fuck workers for the sake of shareholders
-Force all companies over x number of employees to give workers at seat at the executive table.
-Tax wealth dramatically to bring a balance of power back to workers. We can't have a world where the avg worker makes 1.7 million over a lifetime and someone like Musk is worth 386 billion right now. His current wealth is = to 227,529 average -American lifetime earnings. 
-Overturn citizens united
-Don't police speech, but adjust algorithms to prevent rage bait from continually surfacing to the top.
-Protect service workers as well.
-Don't think on-shoring will solve all problems.
-There needs to be the development of new walkable urban environments that are affordable for people in their late 20s early 40s. Any on-shoring wants need to take account of this extreme need and should have been solved 30 years ago.
-Government housing either for rent or for sale should be done at breakneck speed and should be lottery/age related. Any millennial that wanted to started to a family is hitting the end of that reproductive window and the expectation that we were going to have live like my grandma's Italian family in NYC where there were 10 kids and two adults living in a 2 bedroom apartment is fucking absurd. She grew up in the great depression, we live in the richest country on the planet.


The more I think about this, the more I feel it is a Brexit/Grexit issue. There is a liberal case to be made and a liberal way of moving past Reagan's economy that grew inequality and fucked over so many people born after 1975. We are just doing it Brexit style which is going to fucking suck for everyone, but the ultra wealthy who will use the chaos to consolidate their power further.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2025, 01:30:15 PM by TheLurper »

Quote from: ChuckRamone
I love when people bring up world hunger. It makes everything meaningless.
"That guy is double parked."
"Who cares? There are people starving to death! Besides, how does that affect you? Does it lessen the joy of parking?

ungzilla

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • SLAP Pal
  • ******
  • Posts: 1555
  • Rep: 1088
  • Posts: 420
Re: Changes under Trump 2.0
« Reply #863 on: April 06, 2025, 01:32:16 PM »
re your prior tariff post, one of bernie's chief economic advisors was stephanie kelton. she is one of the leading proponents of modern monetary theory which is very flexible in regards to deficit spending in order to do socially useful things like maintaining full employment. given that framework i think it's safe to assume that a program of more protectionist policies could be done in a way that was a benefit to the working class rather than this total clusterfuck. her book "the deficit myth" is really a really good intro to mmt btw.

TastyBurrito

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • SLAP Pal
  • ******
  • Posts: 3199
  • Rep: 951
Re: Changes under Trump 2.0
« Reply #864 on: April 06, 2025, 01:41:04 PM »
My mom told me if I voted for Kamala that gas prices would go up, groceries would sky rocket, and we’d go into a recession — bascially life would get more expensive.

So today, I went to her and told her I know when to admit when I’m wrong. I told her I voted for Kamala and now groceries and goods are getting expensive because of tariffs, gas is almost $5/gallon here in SoCal, the Stock Market is crashing, and we’re headed towards a recession.

She wasn’t amused.

Guess some people just don’t know how to accept an apology.

Knox Harrington

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 73
  • Rep: 16
Re: Changes under Trump 2.0
« Reply #865 on: April 06, 2025, 03:55:20 PM »
While trying to keep some consistency in my thinking--like, most people on the left I was anti-globalization in the 90s and 00s and I was also anti-making boards in Mexico/China--I'm trying to understand why I don't like the tariffs. I proudly wore my made in an American union shop Bernie T-shirt in 2015/16, but why am I so ferociously annoyed with these tariffs?

An obvious reason might be age. Now that I'm finally getting my footing in this stupid post 1980s economy, I don't want to deal with a dramatic change. It puts me at risk for job loss as the EU is an important customer for my company and they might respond harshly towards my employer in particular. After being poor for so long, I don't want to pay (a lot) more for absolutely everything. I've been saving to buy shit that would furnish a home and now that shit is out of reach again. And, we just went through a period of inflation, I'm not ready for another round. Being a millennial is exhausting.

On a continued personal note, I lived in rural America/Canada for 7 years. The hatred and vitriol of the locals was draining. Their inability to appreciate the financial sacrifices urban people make for them, inability to appreciate the knowledge generated in schools/university, and continual desire to touch the stove was annoying. And, the rural people were either retirees who aren't going to work a factory job or they were people my age who were doing drugs or had never attempted to come up. Life is hard out there, but those who I lived next to actively made it worse. My romanticization of workers was met with a harsh reality.



On a less personal note, I don't trust this will be good for workers because of Trump's and the GOP's past. Trump is anti-union, Trump is anti-any and all worker protections, Trump has a habit of fucking over his contractors, and I feel the right has rebelled against "global free-trade" in recent years, but still want to race to the bottom within the USA forcing low wages, job insecurity, and even child labor into the mix. It is hard to believe they want what is best for anyone but the ultra-wealthy.  This would be a complete about-face for a party who championed fucking workers for my entire life. It is hard to believe that they would do anything other than continue to fuck us.


So what is Trump's case for the tariffs? Why is Trump so willing to put the stock market, jobs, and quality of life at risk for so many?

Why Trump won't give a shit about pain or turmoil
Starting with the second question, which is easier to answer, I believe that he is embracing the idea that this will cause pain but it will be better because he likes Milei who is fighting inflation in Argentina. Milei's fight is increasing poverty of the people there and causing lots of pain, but inflation is coming down. It is no accident that Milei was on stage with Musk for the chainsaw show. Musk was inspired by and re-created Milei's chainsaw image. (Funny enough Milei is doing everything he can to get zero tariff trade with the USA.)



Why does Trump like tariffs?
What Trump and friends say: 1) they are there to increase revenue to off-set his tax cuts for the wealthy. 2) they are there to increase production in America, which would eliminate the tax revenue generation in claim 1. 3) his supporters say it is just negotiations or a way to wield power over those he doesn't like, but also negates the tax revenue claim and the produce in America claim.

None of these make sense next to each other as they contradict one another, so let's pretend this is about increasing production in America.

How, so how can we make the case for Trump in terms of tariffs being good for America
Pre-1930s America (where Trump is looking in terms of his stupid MAGA nonsense)
To the dismay of Democrats (the party of Southern agriculture who didn't want reciprocal tariffs on their goods), Republicans (the party of Northern industry) used tariffs to create space for the American industrial economy to grow. Tariffs at the time are higher than our peers and was one of the taxes we used to pay the bills instead of an income tax:
"The developing world, relied on 12 to 16 to 18 percent tariff walls, the United States’ tariffs ranged from 30 percent to 40 percent."

For developing countries tariffs--when done properly--can protect a domestic industry as it develops expertise, efficiency, and so on. This is called "import substitution" and its what Brazil, India, and other places did when trying to develop a few industries when trying to come up in the global economy.

In 1930, America's chemical industries, heavy manufacturing, and financial industries are ready to take on the world and we reduce tariffs.

Skipping forward to the 70s
Manufacturing jobs start to get hammered by technology, moving to right-to-work non-union states, and then off-shore. Obviously, this hollows out rural America in the north and midwest. Manufacturing moves to the sunbelt and overseas where wages and job protections are less. Today a Ford technician makes about 72K a year and a Honda technician makes 52K because Honda doesn't use union labor.

From the early 80s forward, we enter into the world of free trade + government austerity towards citizens. Reagan/Thatcher fucked workers as hard as they possibly could. Enter the age where unions and government are the problem not the solution. Clinton's "New Democrats" weren't much better. Remember, to the dismay of Democrats, Clinton worked with Gingrich to fuck over the welfare system, campaigned as pro-death penalty, and fired nearly 400K federal workers in his time in office.

In the 90s we fully leave our manufacturing economy and enter into a service/knowledge economy that is split between low wage WalMart jobs and high paying jobs like a lawyer to software engineer.



This is the dominant mantra until 2016 when 4chan conservatives really start to have a voice via Trump and his pack of idiots. The right starts to adopt the idea global free-trade is bad, but libertarian no holds barred anti-immigrant race to the bottom capitalism within nation-states will solve all of our problems and produce prosperity for all.

Trump 1.0. We tariff China.
Predictably this does nothing but fuck over those Americans selling to China and those of us who now have to foot the bill for Trump's subsidies to farmers, because manufacturers just switch to Vietnam and a whole host of other low wage countries. Tariffs need to be done on products to protect an industry not countries.

The tariffs might have protected some steel jobs, but we lose manufacturing jobs in the industries that rely on steel to produce goods. And, I'm not even sure it protected any steel jobs. The CPA a lobbying firm Trump is leaning on to justify his tariffs show that among 4 big steel firms, job actually declined post-tariffs : 86K to 83K jobs in steel. "The tariffs are actually helping [businesses] make the transition to newer, cleaner, lower-cost technology. This is bad news for workers at the older facilities [but good for industry]"



Trump 2.0. We tariff everyone on everything.

Well at least we learned that tariffing just China wasn't going to work. It is still clumsy, but there is some growth in thought here.


image stolen from Jacobian

We still have a few problems though:
Just like last time, not all things being imported are consumer goods. The majority of shit from Mexico isn't a final consumer good. Instead, they are inputs for products that will be turned into consumer goods. This fucks over the companies relying on those inputs. And, unless Americans start aligning their diets with the seasons, where else are we going to get avocados in February?

Also, financial capital can still flow across the world. Any good investor wants to make money, they don't give a fuck how they make money. Nothing says investing in a factory to produce t-shirts in America is where the best investment returns will come from. It still might be smarter for someone to invest in a Thai factory to produce shit to sell to the EU, Africa, and Asia.

How will this turn out?
In terms of number of jobs:
I have little faith this will increase job opportunities. I expect the opposite. The tariffs in Trump 1.0 didn't seem to increase the number of jobs. Inflation of input cost will cause some companies to go out of business and new technology will reduce need for more workers and result in layoffs for those who hung on with outdated machinery.

In terms of salaries:
I'm not sure this will result in amazing salaries. There will be a few heavy machining jobs that pay awesome wages, but I don't expect Hanes to start paying American Apparel wages to workers. Even if we got a lot of manufacturing back, a lot of it is going to pay shit wages. I don't imagine working at the Tyson chicken slaughter house becomes a good job without another Jungle and a left leaning administration that wants to protect workers. And, we won't have the talent needed for a lot of these jobs.


What is missing
For the tariffs to actually help workers, firms need to re-invest instead of business as usual shareholder value, stock buy backs, and so on. We need to require firms to do this, but instead, we are going to engage in typical fascist capitalism, government intervenes in the market, but let's the capitalists retain their profits.

We need job training for workers. We need protections for workers. We need environmental protections for our water and air. I don't want factories coming back just to make a bunch of cancer allies.


So, why am I against these, but would probably support Bernie doing something similar?
If Bernie would do something similar, I think it would be completely different. It would come with things that immediately help workers and don't immediately fuck consumers. I think Bernie would attempt to reduce any sort of transitional pain. Not tell everyone, "eat a dick" and then go golfing spending millions of tax payer money on his own properties.

And, I think Bernie would do it with honesty, which the Trump admin is not doing.

I don't think he'd do blanket tariffs on all products. I think he'd work to figure out, which high value products should be produced here and which low value products can be produced elsewhere.

So, I am and the rest of the left a bunch of hypocrites? Am I the liberal Phil Ochs sang about?
To some degree, sure. But, like those on the right, our interpretation changes based not just the goal, but how its done, the motivation to get it done, and the history/context surrounding the actor that all affect perception.

Pretending the goal here is to get Americans jobs that pay decent wages, this is something the right has resisted (and would likely still resist) today if done in a different fashion. There is a willingness to crash the economy, pay higher prices, and induce suffering for blue collar jobs, but when it comes to supporting low level service workers, the right complained everything would cost too much if everyone got a living wage. They complained that it would ruin the economy and things would cost too much. The assumed sacrifice is probably less than the one we are facing now, but they are willing to make us all suffer so rural people can have living wages in fantasy factories. And maybe the fact that city people and educated people will suffer is part of the appeal.

I feel this is a lot like this is like Brexit and Grexit. Brexit had the support of the right and Grexit had the support of the left. The same exit, but with different motivations and likely different ways of completing the same action.
Poverty (at least in stats) and inflation have fallen under Milei. Milei is about as free market as you can get, which is why it's strange for the Trump administration to both admire him and lay out tariffs which is more consistent with Peronism, which Milei is the opponent of.

In other words, it's only consistent with Milei's ideology if they succeed in pressuring countries to drop their tariffs against the US to the point of lowering the cumulative tariff rate overall.

Too Frank To Fred

  • Guest
Re: Changes under Trump 2.0
« Reply #866 on: April 06, 2025, 04:56:41 PM »
My mom told me if I voted for Kamala that gas prices would go up, groceries would sky rocket, and we’d go into a recession — bascially life would get more expensive.

So today, I went to her and told her I know when to admit when I’m wrong. I told her I voted for Kamala and now groceries and goods are getting expensive because of tariffs, gas is almost $5/gallon here in SoCal, the Stock Market is crashing, and we’re headed towards a recession.

She wasn’t amused.

Guess some people just don’t know how to accept an apology.

I'm amused. Hope things work out between you and your mum.

WashingtonNECKTIE

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • SLAP Pal
  • ******
  • Posts: 2059
  • Rep: 472
  • Precision Posture
Re: Changes under Trump 2.0
« Reply #867 on: April 06, 2025, 06:06:56 PM »
My main gripe with tariffs is how the hell is US supposed to transition to manufacturing economy with no industrial backbone and an obvious limit on how many and which natural goods the country can produce?

Also, there seems to be a history with nations becoming very industrious and subsequently becoming war-time economies….
Wow sorry, didn't realise I was dealing with a sick cunt here

noxiousPond

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 556
  • Rep: 34
Re: Changes under Trump 2.0
« Reply #868 on: April 06, 2025, 06:52:17 PM »
My mom told me if I voted for Kamala that gas prices would go up, groceries would sky rocket, and we’d go into a recession — bascially life would get more expensive.

So today, I went to her and told her I know when to admit when I’m wrong. I told her I voted for Kamala and now groceries and goods are getting expensive because of tariffs, gas is almost $5/gallon here in SoCal, the Stock Market is crashing, and we’re headed towards a recession.

She wasn’t amused.

Guess some people just don’t know how to accept an apology.

That was quite the solid burn.
quit beers. picked up a board. now I damage the outside of my body

Plan9Customs

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • SLAP Pal
  • ******
  • Posts: 2372
  • Rep: 1186
Re: Changes under Trump 2.0
« Reply #869 on: April 06, 2025, 07:09:39 PM »
Copy pasta from WSJ

*The First Victim of Trump’s Trade War: Michigan’s Economy

Auto industry, which supports one in 10 jobs in the state, shifts into battle mode to stem tariffs’ worst effects, even as many locals hope the cost will be worth it in the end

DETROIT—If President Trump’s trade war has a physical battleground, it is Michigan, where companies and workers are already feeling the beginning of an onslaught that could blow a hole in the state’s economy.
Nearly 20% of the economy is tied to the auto industry, which has become increasingly dependent on parts and vehicles from Canada, Mexico and China—imports Trump hit with steep tariffs in recent weeks. This trade has grown so large that Michigan ranks fifth in the nation by the size of its imports and exports, even though its total economy ranks 14th.
Detroit’s automotive executives have shifted into battle mode. They are stockpiling imported components, wrestling with suppliers over price increases and setting up war rooms to figure out how to cut costs.
Workers at the state’s biggest auto factories are tightening their belts, too, in case tariffs spark layoffs by causing a spike in vehicle prices and a drop in demand. Some early moves have added to their jitters. Hours after the latest tariffs took effect last week, Jeep parent Stellantis temporarily laid off about 900 workers in Michigan and Indiana who supply parts to factories in Canada and Mexico that the company idled at the same time.
One auto executive early last week darkly predicted “Chernobyl” if tariffs broadly hit imported parts, which they’re scheduled to do next month. Industry executives and analysts later said what the administration outlined Wednesday was worse than they expected.
Some prominent voices, including the Detroit-based United Auto Workers union, say the upset will be worth it in the long run if tariffs do what Trump has pledged: expand U.S. manufacturing and unwind the offshoring of jobs that decimated many communities in Michigan and beyond.
For now, levies on steel and aluminum imports and on goods from China that took effect in March are starting to bite Michigan manufacturers. Additional tariffs on auto imports and other goods have also begun to pinch in recent days.
Hitting the phones
On the outskirts of Detroit, auto-parts manufacturer Luxit was scrambling to deal with the extra 20% in tariffs Trump imposed on Chinese imports when it learned the president was raising the tariffs to 54%.
The added cost is prompting Luxit, which relies on Chinese imports to make some vehicle lighting and other components, to begin reshoring one production line from China to a Luxit factory in Tennessee, and to consider moving other production to Michigan, chief executive Stephane Vedie said. The line moving to Tennessee employs eight people in China but will employ only two in Tennessee because the equipment will be more automated, he said. A production transfer to Michigan would create about 10 jobs.
Meanwhile, Vedie and his colleagues are hitting the phones to convince Luxit’s automaker customers to pay more. 
That, too, has a cost. “The time I am speaking to convince our customers to accept the price increases, I’m not speaking with them about new business, about growth,” Vedie said.
Mary Buchzeiger, CEO of Lucerne International, another local auto supplier, is also talking with customers about her need to raise prices because of the new China tariffs. About 80% of the automotive hinges, brackets and other components Lucerne sells are made in China.
“There is no way we can absorb these tariffs. I don’t have 20% margin to give,” said Buchzeiger, who owns the company, which employs 25 people. 
The new 25% tariff on imported aluminum is also scrambling her efforts to build a new factory in the U.S. to forge metal into pistons and other parts. She is trying to land outside funding for the project, and is close to picking a Midwestern site for the plant—ideally in Michigan. But the tariffs are delaying talks because no one is certain about the auto industry’s future, she said.
Some forecasts for the industry are dire. Anderson Economic Group, a Michigan consulting firm, estimates the tariffs will add $2,500 to $12,000 to the price of many new cars, and up to $20,000 for luxury imports. That will push new vehicles further beyond the reach of consumers already struggling with average prices of roughly $48,000.
“This is going to have a dramatic negative effect on car sales in the United States…and there will be production shutdowns,” said Patrick Anderson, the firm’s CEO. “The epicenter for job losses due to these tariffs is somewhere between Detroit, Michigan, and Windsor, Canada.”
Two big automakers—Ford and Stellantis—said they would offer discounts on vehicles through the end of April.
Gabriel Ehrlich, a University of Michigan economist, forecasts the new steel and aluminum tariffs alone will cost Michigan 600 auto manufacturing jobs by the end of next year, and an additional 1,700 jobs in industries that serve auto workers. The auto tariffs will have an even bigger impact, he said.
It’s not just manufacturing jobs at stake. The auto industry provides some of Michigan’s most lucrative white-collar design and engineering jobs and helps finance research programs at state universities. Every position in an auto factory also supports three additional jobs in the state that depend on auto workers eating out, shopping for clothing or buying a house, Ehrlich said.
Tariffs also pose a threat to Michigan’s agricultural sector, which ranks among the top in the U.S. in the production of tart cherries, asparagus, and squash, and the state’s nascent tech industry, centered on the production of drones and other battery-powered vehicles. 
An industry town
At a sandwich shop on the north side of Detroit, owner Leona Milton said she isn’t sure how tariffs will affect her, but she knows her business relies on a healthy auto industry. 
Milton got her start delivering lunch to auto workers during Covid, driving up to factory gates with a cooler full of sandwiches. That helped her save up to open her shop, What’s the Dill, three years ago, where many of those same workers formed her customer base.
“It will affect us if the auto industry loses positions,” Milton said as she wrapped up a recent lunch shift. “People will lose their ability to shop with us…. They’ll have to use their money for bills or groceries instead.”
But many Michiganders, upset by the factory shutdowns of the free-trade era, are choosing to focus on the long term. Mira Zeigler-Moore, 54, a longtime Stellantis worker in Detroit, said she is no Trump fan, but she hopes his 25% auto tariffs are a first step toward increasing automotive production in the U.S.
Kelly Nering, a finance professional whose father worked at Ford, said she thinks tariffs will cause uncomfortable price increases in the short term but will be worth it in the end.*

Yeah, for the shareholders. Definitely not any employees/laid off employees though.

@TastyBurrito I respect you for that. That definitely took some balls.