The Slap Message Boards and the Trial of Jamie Thomas

[H8R part 4]

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whoa, boards have resin in them? i've been throwing them away all these years

[close]

haha, only a seasoned stoner would know why thats funny.

[close]

I just got back from smoking resin in my room,  thank god pay day is tomorrow. 

as they say, if its black put it back, if its grey throw it away.

i'm liking the hell concave....not sure if everyone else will though....

hhhhhhhhell concave!

[Ronald Wilson Reagan]

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Just to fully beat a dead horse until it can't be beat anymore:
I was talking to my friend about this and he said that you probably do pay the workers fairly in Mexico. According to him, the reason most big skateboard deck companies move to Mexico is to skirt environmental laws in the U.S. He said that the big ingredient is the resin. Apparently, there are some resins that you can't really use in U.S. factories due primarily to health and environmental problems caused by the fumes and waste. But Mexico has more lax environmental laws, so its legal and cheap to do. What is up with this explanation Jamie?

[close]

GIPPER, the Resin is used in Chinese wood shops, one of the dudes that works here used to press boards for like 2 years, the dude knows alot about a skateboard how and where it manufactured and any lil nook and craney on anything and eveything about a skateboard and how its manufactured.  He's taught me alot.  we call it the "knowledge of nothing" cause it aint gonna get ya nothing, but its good to know.

So, just to clarify for me, my friend was right that some companies use a resin that is toxic to the workers and pollutes the environment to the point where it is illegal in the U.S., but it happens in China? But Mexico isn't like that? So then black box is all good on that point?
The second, weaker wave of attacks comes in, and Thomas, already battle tested from the first, much larger wave of questioning fends off attacks and comes out unscathed!

[H8R part 4]

gipper,
you're applying what we consider law, globally.
you can't expect every country on the planet to adhere to our laws no matter how "right" we think they are.
rules and regulations are set by each individual country as they see fit, not how we see fit.
i.e. drinking and driving is a serious crime in some countries and punishable by death. 
if thats the case, then someone could say, anyone driving while intoxicated in our country should also be put to death because thats the way it is where they live....you see how that doesn't work.

i'm not exact sure why you're grilling JT but you're reaching.  why not question the guys at girl, dwindle, or the dozen or so other companies that have been making their stuff in mexico/china long before zero. 
its like you got a personal vendetta against him, yet giving the rest of the industry a free pass. 
   

[Sleazy]

i have a feeling that the girl\choc\lakia camp would have a hard time dealing with this same kind of scrutiny but you don't see anyone putting this out there on those brands

isn't it OK to just to say you don't like black box because you don't like the kids that like black box\the videos\the team\ect...? i just don't get the need people have to make it a personal attack on Jamie and the companys he runs.

[MexicanSpaniard]

I don't really pipe in on this subject much but what is there to hate on about Black Box? I mean really, list the problems because I don't get it.

[brooklyn brawler]

Need we mention Girl/Chocolate and their China made boards / Red Board promotion conflict of interest again?

[Bipsmound]

My problem with black box is that the "I am ... I am Zero ... I am"  guy was only on flow and never got his ender bangers in the video.

In related news:  Remember that 60/40 ad where the dude jumped off the roof?  BOBCAT!!!!  What was the fuckin deal with those guys?  Where did that footage come from?  Tell me more?

[H8R part 4]

i have a feeling that the girl\choc\lakia camp would have a hard time dealing with this same kind of scrutiny but you don't see anyone putting this out there on those brands

most industry heads and pros would never post here publically.  theres tons of them who hang here but most of them hide behind their anonmity to avoid any chance of possible ridicule....hooray for bitches the internet!

at least people like JT, sanch, cliff, JF and a couple of other heads have the balls to come here and say who they are and post their thoughts even if it means they'll get hated on.  whereas the rest of these heads hide behind their computers, talk mad shit on everything and everyone, yet too pussy to reveal themselves, yet too pussy to get some of what they dish out.  i know, i know, its because your famous and shit and don't want your inbox flooded with hook me up PM's.  it makes sense i guess, but what i want to know is, what makes you think everyone here would instantly jock you?  need an extra seat on the tour bus for your ego do you?   need a spotlight to display your crown?  a private parking spot for your high horse maybe?


one thing i've learned during my time on slap is, if you're an asshole, you're an asshole. 
no one here gives two shits who you are or who you know, no one. 

[NickDagger]

gipper,
you're applying what we consider law, globally.
you can't expect every country on the planet to adhere to our laws no matter how "right" we think they are.
rules and regulations are set by each individual country as they see fit, not how we see fit.
i.e. drinking and driving is a serious crime in some countries and punishable by death. 
if thats the case, then someone could say, anyone driving while intoxicated in our country should also be put to death because thats the way it is where they live....you see how that doesn't work.

Beneath all the smoke you just blew, is the simple question posed by the Gipper: "do they use that substance in Mexican which is banned for use here because of it's toxicity or watevs?"-I think Jamie answered it with a "no."

[H8R part 4]

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gipper,
you're applying what we consider law, globally.
you can't expect every country on the planet to adhere to our laws no matter how "right" we think they are.
rules and regulations are set by each individual country as they see fit, not how we see fit.
i.e. drinking and driving is a serious crime in some countries and punishable by death. 
if thats the case, then someone could say, anyone driving while intoxicated in our country should also be put to death because thats the way it is where they live....you see how that doesn't work.

[close]

Beneath all the smoke you just blew, is the simple question posed by the Gipper: "do they use that substance in Mexican which is banned for use here because of it's toxicity or watevs?"-I think Jamie answered it with a "no."

its nothing compared all the cocks you blew.

[NickDagger]

dammnnnnnnn pwn3d.


But seriously your argument is regular.

If it's unethical/wrong for people to be forced, because of economic conditions, to work in environments where shitty chemicals get splashed around them all day in America, then it's unethical everywhere. 

I doubt this is how it is at the black box plant, and I think Jamie is a stand up guy, and this could be one example of mexicans actually benefiting from our outsourcing, instead of moving from "homeless" to "poverty-stricken-slave" which is often the case, instead of whatever cakewalk Thomas Freidman thinks that most of the people that get our outsourced jobs get to take part in.

I really feel sorry for Mexicans, they have a notoriously ineffective and corrupt government, and are now becoming infamous for having  a corrupt police force that regularly kidnaps tourists, and all kinds of sketchy shit.

[H8R part 4]

If it's unethical/wrong for people to be forced, because of economic conditions, to work in environments where shitty chemicals get splashed around them all day in America, then it's unethical everywhere. 

that post is exactly why so many foreigners hate americans.   
we shouldn't force our laws/rules/views onto others. 

maybe if america owned the planet your shit would make sense but seeing as each country has to the right to make their own laws as they see fit, you need to suck a dick and choke.

i really didn't mind your posts but the post up there makes me fuckin hate you.
 

     


 

[Ronald Wilson Reagan]

gipper,
you're applying what we consider law, globally.
you can't expect every country on the planet to adhere to our laws no matter how "right" we think they are.
rules and regulations are set by each individual country as they see fit, not how we see fit.
i.e. drinking and driving is a serious crime in some countries and punishable by death. 

if thats the case, then someone could say, anyone driving while intoxicated in our country should also be put to death because thats the way it is where they live....you see how that doesn't work.

i'm not exact sure why you're grilling JT but you're reaching.  why not question the guys at girl, dwindle, or the dozen or so other companies that have been making their stuff in mexico/china long before zero. 
its like you got a personal vendetta against him, yet giving the rest of the industry a free pass. 
   

So according to your theory, a company that opens bank accounts on the caymans or switzerland to avoid U.S. taxation aren't doing anything wrong. If a man goes to Thailand to legally fuck a 9 year old girl, we shouldn't question it. Its fucked up to do that, whether you are in it to fuck little girls, make skateboards or softdrinks. Whether you are Jamie Thomas, Mike Carroll or anybody. I ask Jamie because he is here. After he answered it became clear that the issue was not a case with him, but with other manufacturers in the skateboard industry. We know who makes china wood, now we have another reason not to support it, and nobody from the industry is coming to defend the decision to make decks in China. They know this topic is up, and have the chance to.

Its not an issue of a law, its an issue of doing the right thing.

[NickDagger]

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If it's unethical/wrong for people to be forced, because of economic conditions, to work in environments where shitty chemicals get splashed around them all day in America, then it's unethical everywhere. 

[close]

that post is exactly why so many foreigners hate americans.   
we shouldn't force our laws/rules/views onto others. 

maybe if america owned the planet your shit would make sense but seeing as each country has to the right to make their own laws as they see fit, you need to suck a dick and choke.

Are you high? I'm for the rights of individual countries to make their own laws and rules, and am against America's imperialism/interventionism/colonialism.

But that's not what we're talking about.

What we're talking about is whether or not it's cool to do ship jobs to another country where the laws don't prevent you from doing things like splashing chemicals all over the bodies of poor workers all day.

If you don't see any moral problem with that, or with Gipper's example, of going to another country to take advantage of sweet child prostitution, then argue that.

Because what you're doing here is just spouting off that you don't like Americans, which has nothing to do with the discussion whatsoever. 

A good starting point would be to discuss whether or not you believe in the idea of "natural rights," or not?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_right

[H8R part 4]

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gipper,
you're applying what we consider law, globally.
you can't expect every country on the planet to adhere to our laws no matter how "right" we think they are.
rules and regulations are set by each individual country as they see fit, not how we see fit.
i.e. drinking and driving is a serious crime in some countries and punishable by death. 

if thats the case, then someone could say, anyone driving while intoxicated in our country should also be put to death because thats the way it is where they live....you see how that doesn't work.

i'm not exact sure why you're grilling JT but you're reaching.  why not question the guys at girl, dwindle, or the dozen or so other companies that have been making their stuff in mexico/china long before zero. 
its like you got a personal vendetta against him, yet giving the rest of the industry a free pass. 
   

[close]

So according to your theory, a company that opens bank accounts on the caymans or switzerland to avoid U.S. taxation aren't doing anything wrong. If a man goes to Thailand to legally fuck a 9 year old girl, we shouldn't question it. Its fucked up to do that, whether you are in it to fuck little girls, make skateboards or softdrinks. Whether you are Jamie Thomas, Mike Carroll or anybody. I ask Jamie because he is here. After he answered it became clear that the issue was not a case with him, but with other manufacturers in the skateboard industry. We know who makes china wood, now we have another reason not to support it, and nobody from the industry is coming to defend the decision to make decks in China. They know this topic is up, and have the chance to.

Its not an issue of a law, its an issue of doing the right thing.

no, theres nothing wrong with opening foreign bank accounts to manipulate the US tax system.
the gov't sets the rules and we have to play their game by their rules. 
so as long as we follow the rules of their game, i see nothing wrong with it.

yes, of course theres totally something wrong with having sex with 9 year olds(quite a extreme example) by our standards, by our upbringing, but if theres no law in thailand against it, then theres not much to do or say about it no matter how fucked up we think it is....its not our place.

i agree that its an issue of doing the right thing but the fact remains what we think is right has nothing to do with whats considered right in another country, thats really my point.  you gotta see things from their perspective no matter how skewed you think their perception is.  they don't eat cows in india, they are considered sacred.  now, could you imagine if india was a super power and told americans it was wrong to eat beef and that something needs to be done?   if that shit went down, i could say with 100% certainty that we'd have biggest BBQ ever and tell them to go to hell! and we'd have every right to do so because we don't live in india. 

       

[H8R part 4]

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If it's unethical/wrong for people to be forced, because of economic conditions, to work in environments where shitty chemicals get splashed around them all day in America, then it's unethical everywhere. 

[close]

that post is exactly why so many foreigners hate americans.   
we shouldn't force our laws/rules/views onto others. 

maybe if america owned the planet your shit would make sense but seeing as each country has to the right to make their own laws as they see fit, you need to suck a dick and choke.

[close]

Are you high? I'm for the rights of individual countries to make their own laws and rules, and am against America's imperialism/interventionism/colonialism.

But that's not what we're talking about.

What we're talking about is whether or not it's cool to do ship jobs to another country where the laws don't prevent you from doing things like splashing chemicals all over the bodies of poor workers all day.

If you don't see any moral problem with that, or with Gipper's example, of going to another country to take advantage of sweet child prostitution, then argue that.

Because what you're doing here is just spouting off that you don't like Americans, which has nothing to do with the discussion whatsoever. 

A good starting point would be to discuss whether or not you believe in the idea of "natural rights," or not?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_right

really? your posts so far would contradict your first sentence.

i don't hate americans, i hate stupid people.
its just unfortunate that a lot of them are jaded americans that think they know whats best for everyone on the planet.

i totally see a problem with working in some factory with dangerous chemicals splashing around all over the place, but i understand its just not my place to judge another countries laws/ethics based on our laws/ethics.  thats the point your missing and its the only point i was trying to make. 

[NickDagger]

really? your posts so far would contradict your first sentence.

i don't hate americans, i hate stupid people.
its just unfortunate that a lot of them are jaded americans that think they know whats best for everyone on the planet.

i totally see a problem with working in some factory with dangerous chemicals splashing around all over the place, but i understand its just not my place to judge another countries laws/ethics based on our laws/ethics.  thats the point your missing and its the only point i was trying to make. 

No, they can make their own laws, for example in very sparsely populated countries, they might not need as strict of gun-laws as somewhere like Japan. Different countries have different needs in this respect and that should be respected.

However what shouldn't be respected is when human rights get shitted on.

You're drowning in some kind of gross moral-relativism, which seems to say that you have no right to judge when a country allows or practices: slavery, child prostitution, jailing political protesters and on and on.

And ironically you say it's not your right to say anything about another countries awful practices, when in fact, if you can't, who will? In China attempt to speak out against the government and see what happens. So I guess that leaves by your standard, no one who can criticize these things?

Sorry but things like this, are always wrong, regardless of country, time, boarder and location.

[Ronald Wilson Reagan]

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gipper,
you're applying what we consider law, globally.
you can't expect every country on the planet to adhere to our laws no matter how "right" we think they are.
rules and regulations are set by each individual country as they see fit, not how we see fit.
i.e. drinking and driving is a serious crime in some countries and punishable by death. 

if thats the case, then someone could say, anyone driving while intoxicated in our country should also be put to death because thats the way it is where they live....you see how that doesn't work.

i'm not exact sure why you're grilling JT but you're reaching.  why not question the guys at girl, dwindle, or the dozen or so other companies that have been making their stuff in mexico/china long before zero. 
its like you got a personal vendetta against him, yet giving the rest of the industry a free pass. 
   

[close]

So according to your theory, a company that opens bank accounts on the caymans or switzerland to avoid U.S. taxation aren't doing anything wrong. If a man goes to Thailand to legally fuck a 9 year old girl, we shouldn't question it. Its fucked up to do that, whether you are in it to fuck little girls, make skateboards or softdrinks. Whether you are Jamie Thomas, Mike Carroll or anybody. I ask Jamie because he is here. After he answered it became clear that the issue was not a case with him, but with other manufacturers in the skateboard industry. We know who makes china wood, now we have another reason not to support it, and nobody from the industry is coming to defend the decision to make decks in China. They know this topic is up, and have the chance to.

Its not an issue of a law, its an issue of doing the right thing.

[close]

no, theres nothing wrong with opening foreign bank accounts to manipulate the US tax system.
the gov't sets the rules and we have to play their game by their rules. 
so as long as we follow the rules of their game, i see nothing wrong with it.

yes, of course theres totally something wrong with having sex with 9 year olds(quite a extreme example) by our standards, by our upbringing, but if theres no law in thailand against it, then theres not much to do or say about it no matter how fucked up we think it is....its not our place.

i agree that its an issue of doing the right thing but the fact remains what we think is right has nothing to do with whats considered right in another country, thats really my point.  you gotta see things from their perspective no matter how skewed you think their perception is.  they don't eat cows in india, they are considered sacred.  now, could you imagine if india was a super power and told americans it was wrong to eat beef and that something needs to be done?   if that shit went down, i could say with 100% certainty that we'd have biggest BBQ ever and tell them to go to hell! and we'd have every right to do so because we don't live in india. 

       

I'm not talking about businesses from other countries, I'm talking about companies who are based in the United States, breaking United States laws in other countries, which, in some cases, such as tax evasion and child prostitution IS a crime still.

But it still doesn't cover what dagger was saying about natural rights. So what if something is legal? There are many things that are illegal that I feel are not immoral, and there are also a lot of things that are legal, that I find immoral.

The best example from history is Slavery in the United States. At one point it was legal to beat, torture, rape, murder, and split the families of black people up for the purpose of slave labor. At the point it was legal was it the right thing to do? No, obviously it wasn't. Today, if people use slave labor or make people work in unsafe conditions, no matter what country it is in, it is wrong, and if a company from the U.S. is perpetuating that system I have every right, and some might say duty, to call them out on that.

Also, given that I am from America my perspective is kind of skewed on this, but I was under the impression that a good deal of the world hated us because we are a tiny part of the world who are exploiting and abusing a vast majority of it for our own selfish gain. The idea of exposing poor workers to potentially deadly chemicals just so we can have our toys (skateboards are great, but they are just that, toys) a little cheaper probably pisses people off a lot.
I have also heard that a lot of people around the world hate America because we never think about what is going on outside of our own borders. A good example would be the fact that every American tourist in France thinks that they should speak English and then gets pissed when they don't. Its like your opinion, where you don't care about whether or not people are getting exploited outside of America and get angry if people question a person who is doing it, just because he is good at skateboarding.
But I'm from the U.S.- I'd be curious what some of our non-American friends think.
P.S. the revolution that recently occurred in Venezuela was the result of the hatred of American and other western nations exploiting South America. Also, its the reason the U.S. government hates Venezuela- they stopped taking our shit.

[SLAPTASTIC]

So what we make boards in China?

[chordsincords]

Permission to drink Chief, or does Christ not approve?

[I SUCK!]

stoops, the rest of you guys are gnarly.

[faux cough]

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i'm back and forth because i try to keep an open mind and not take sides.
when you pick one side over another, you're saying one side is right and the other side is wrong, when in life i know theres no such thing as absolute right or an absolute wrong.

i see your point of view but in the end, people only care about the bottom line, money....and this has always been the case.           
trying to convince a bunch of businessmen to make less money, is like me trying to convince a jew to marry a nazi...its just not happening.
 

[close]

OHNOYOUDINNIUT!

You must be a Thomas Friedman reader! Or some other NYT shit. Saying "well, I have an open mind and this is just really complicated" is just a lame cop-out. If you know there are no absolutes, isn't that..an absolute? I'm pretty sure facts do exist, and wether or not you agree or deny that, either way you're supporting that they do, get it? But lets not get sidetracked.

I wasn't talking about trying to convince buisnessmen of anything, I was saying the public COULD get off their asses and vote with their dollars, and force their congress to pass legislation to force the kind of regulations I'm talking about. This would FORCE change in many of the practices we are talking about today. It's really not all that far-fetched, look at the reforms that have been brought upon since the industrial revolution. Don't take it for granted that the factories in America today are much nicer places to be then they were even a hundred  years ago.

Societal changes come about when they are forced upon the people who control the country. Look at the civil rights movement. (we're you on the fence about this one? Open minded about slavery?) while racism still exists and much more is still to be done, the improvements that have been made in the rights of blacks took place because people demanded it.

First of all, theres not "2 sides" on any issue. There are infinite sides and possibilities to resolve any issue, it's weird how many people buy into this idea that the republican's and democrats make up for all the ideas possible. Most of the time they just echo each other in policies and are basically right-centrists in most of their policies. They use social issues to effectively separate themselves in the eyes of the American public, but it's bullshit.

"Look I stay fair and balanced, I listen to Hannity AND Colmes!"

nickdagger, thanks for the enlightening logical reasoning tutorial.  let's not get sidetracked, but i'm trying to resolve the issue of how many sides there are to every issue (2? 3? infinity?).  is it true or false that there are infinite sides and possibilities to resolve any issue?  get it?

[grimcity]

Based on some things said a  bit earlier: Member countries of the WTO could agree to human rights standards that must be met before they can engage in commerce with anyone else. The US could be very influential in breaking up some child and slave labor economies. We could instigate and negotiate that at the WTO, but it'll never happen because we lack a spine.

[Ronald Wilson Reagan]

Grim, exactly! Have trade agreements, but make them agree to certain human rights issues before we give them our huge, incredibly profitable contracts. The U.S. has more than enough pull as an economic powerhouse to make other nations do certain things, like not dumping poisons into the environment, or treating workers with a certain minimum level of respect if they want to make products for us.  They don't do that, we don't let U.S. businesses have that sort of free trade with them. Its not enforcing our culture on them either, if they want to have shady business practices, we just won't buy their goods. But all this has happened during a period where presidents have essentially turned their backs on assuring human rights in trade. But yep, we're either spineless or just classic arrogant Americans who don't give a shit what happens in other countries as long as our Dunks are cheap.

[j....soy.....]

no....i want my dunks  to be expensive and have clever colourways....

[NickDagger]

nickdagger, thanks for the enlightening logical reasoning tutorial.  let's not get sidetracked, but i'm trying to resolve the issue of how many sides there are to every issue (2? 3? infinity?).  is it true or false that there are infinite sides and possibilities to resolve any issue?  get it?

Well, for instance, when I'm having intercourse with your mother, there are presumably infinite positions we can use. Or at the least, we've yet to stop finding new ones.

But on a serious note, faster! was just taking a lame "well it's just really complicated, and all you americans are just trying to push your ways on us!" When a few of us suggested the effects of globalization have benefited only a few at the top, while destroying the middle class here and converting previously respectable jobs here to slave-labor jobs around the world. So faster!'s assertion was about the most ironic thing I can think of, when that's exactly what we're suggesting, keep American jobs here, or at least if we sent them elsewhere have standards and adequate working conditions. If he want's american's to stay out of the world's business, or cares in the slightest about human rights, then he should be with us.

[clarkie]

Based on some things said a  bit earlier: Member countries of the WTO could agree to human rights standards that must be met before they can engage in commerce with anyone else. The US could be very influential in breaking up some child and slave labor economies. We could instigate and negotiate that at the WTO, but it'll never happen because we lack a spine.

Grim, you'll be happy about this. There are 3 bills on the floor right now, in both house and senate. Here is the one in committee hearings now in the Senate. Both Hillary and Obama are cosigners:

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d110:SN00367:@@@D&summ2=m&

The republican administration over the last 8 years of course encouraged outsourcing, anything to make the rich richer preying off the middle and poor class.. The minute the democrats took control of both house and senate, they began introducing bills concerning sweatshops, importing and exporting, and the loss of jobs in the US. Keep the hope!

[The Mess]

damn. just found this. rad thread. i'm backing the gipper.
i do have to agree with the dagger: fuck tom friedman.
dude backed the war in the run-up, now he acts like it
was the dumbest dice roll in american history.
oh yeah. it was.

[sweatloaf]

Mr. Thomas, are you concerned that rising oil prices can affect the vialabitly of your future business in drive up burger restaurants?

[I SUCK!]

hell yeah!