Philosophical Pals can u help?

[Shtonk]

I'll explain what this is for below. I'm looking for short definitions on a process where capitalism tends to incorporate things that are critical of it or pose a systemic threat and turns them into new areas of "growth" by breaking off the revolutionary bits and commodifying the rest of it. Good examples would be "Pride" going from the decidedly political Stonewall uprising to Google putting a rainbow in their logo during June, or feminism devolving into the "girlboss" thing, or an absolutely non-commercial scene like the dropout-campervan lifestyle becoming a fully 'gram-ified luxury brand dystopia.

I got the expression "acculturation" from Boltanski/Chiapello's 2006 "The New Spirit of Capitalism" (p.20) but they only mention it once, taking the term from Dumond in his originally purely cultural context and applying it to the economical context of capitalism, but they never really provide a great definition for it, so now I'm looking for alternatives that say the same thing and can be used to outline the concept in one or two sentences.

If you're curious, this is for an idea for a short film essay on the "revolutionary potentials" of skateboarding following a book by German scholar Sebastian Schweer. It's applying marxist philosophical and sociological concepts to the act of street skateboarding (Ranciere, Foucault, Boltanski/Chiapello, Harvey, Debord). The idea to put it into a film is more artistical than scientifically rigorous but I want it done well and proper, so using proper citation techniques and not twisting the meaning of concepts. The "acculturation" bit is the last remaining hurdle because all other authors provide really good quotable phrases for their respective points, but Boltanski/Chiapello really don't. It doesn't necessarily have to be from a specifically Marxist philosopher, I just need a good quote for this process. Have thought about Mark Fischer's "Vampire Castle" but his wording there is more critical of progressive scenes (and their lack of class consciousness) than of the capitalist process, which is what I'm looking for. Maybe somebody's read his other writings and knows wether something from there could fit?

Thank you!

[S.]

What comes to mind is Deleuze/Guattari deterritorialization/reterritorialization. "deterritorialization" refers to the loosening of established structures and identities, while "reterritorialization" involves the re-establishment of new, often capitalist-driven, structures and identities.

You can quote me, lol.

I explained their concept in a paper with a Bill Hicks bit.

Page 8

https://www.academia.edu/18641644/Deleuze_and_Miller_s_Machines_A_Reading_of_Desire_in_Tropic_of_Cancer

[fruits, nuts, + seeds:)]

the "spectacle" as initially described by guy debord and expounded on by frankfurt school adherents. requires a knowledge of semiotics so a background in barthes is helpful (and baudrillards "signs and simulacra" is also helpful, altho it was written a lot later).

essentially all culture you see in a capitalist society is an outgrowth of the machinations of capital so it's incredibly easy to subsume any revolutionary ideas into "culture" and leave the actual structures of power intact- it's why you can post about your issue of choice to a billionaire's data farming app that doubles as a dopamine shotta and claim to be "into politics" or why the guys from rage against the machine don't have to punch a timeclock like me       

@#$%^&*

hope this helpz


p.s. jus re-read your post, instead of name checking debord actually read him

[S.]

When I read Bauderullard‘s “Kool Killer“, his book on graffiti I thought that many of his ideas apply to street skating as well.

From google AI:

Jean Baudrillard, a prominent postmodern thinker, famously analyzed graffiti in his work "Kool Killer oder Der Aufstand der Zeichen" (Kool Killer or The Revolt of Signs), viewing it as a symbolic act of reclaiming public space and a form of "empty signs" that challenge the dominant, sign-saturated society.
Here's a more detailed look at Baudrillard's perspective on graffiti:
Graffiti as a "Revolt of Signs":
Baudrillard saw graffiti, particularly the tags and names appearing on walls, subways, and buses, as a form of symbolic rebellion against the overwhelming presence of signs and symbols in modern society.
Empty Signs:
He argued that graffiti, with its seemingly meaningless tags and names (like "SUPER-SEX" or "SUPERKOOL"), are "empty signs" that subvert the meaning-driven nature of communication and advertising.
Symbolic Reappropriation of Space:
Baudrillard believed that graffiti, by marking public spaces with these "empty signs," represents a form of symbolic reappropriation of the urban landscape, which he saw as increasingly controlled and homogenized.
Distinction from "Mural Walls":
Baudrillard distinguished between graffiti and city-sponsored mural projects, which he saw as forms of controlled art and advertising, and the "wild" graffiti that emerges spontaneously in neighborhoods.
Non-Ideological and Non-Artistic:
He argued that graffiti is neither ideological nor artistic in the traditional sense, as it lacks a clear message or a desire to create beauty, but instead, it's a form of "tatooing" the urban landscape with "empty signs".
Hyperreality:
Baudrillard's ideas about simulation and hyperreality also relate to graffiti. He argued that in a world saturated with signs and images, the real becomes increasingly indistinguishable from the simulated, and graffiti, with its lack of a clear message, can be seen as a way to challenge this hyperreal world.

[ralf_]

recuperation:
The notion of recuperation, first introduced by the Situationists, refers to the manner in which the repressive system seeks to neutralize or contain the attacks launched against it by absorbing them into the "spectacle" or by pro­ jecting its own meanings and goals onto these oppositional activities.
-Bruce Brown, Marx, Freud and the CritiqueofEverydayLife (1973)

[Marion Stoked]

If you can find a pdf of it, this should also give some insight:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalist_Realism

[TheLurper]

The first thing I think of is Dick Hebdige's book The Meaning of Style. His discussion how subcultures become commodified might have a few good references. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subculture:_The_Meaning_of_Style

Finally, just search google scholar for the pride example. I'm sure you'll find something that builds on this example and/or references who you should be reading.

[ferguu]

I won't pretend that I'm particularly well read in philosophy, but this does remind me of Hegelian disruption / Ancient Greek divide and rule tactics. From Wikipedia:

~~~
According to Richard Morrock, four tactics of divide and rule practiced by Western colonialists are:

    -The manufacture of differences within the targeted population.
    -The amplification of existing differences.
    -The use of these differences for the benefit of the colonial empire. (This one is especially pertinent.)
    -The carry over of these differences into the post-colonial period.
~~~

It is terrifying to think that corporations co-opting movements could be normalized / celebrated in the future, as the final point suggests. A little off topic but reminds me of that KRS-ONE song "Boom Bye Bye":

~~~
Look at the media, they all on some new shit
Black lives matter now, they all want to use it
It's all in the news and the music
What we seeing is the corporate co-opting of another black movement
They whole economy, they now about to lose it
How can a black life matter when you already abused it?
~~~

[Sila]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulacra_and_Simulation

[Too Frank To Fred]

[ralf_]

next up medium threat

[oyolar]

recuperation:
The notion of recuperation, first introduced by the Situationists, refers to the manner in which the repressive system seeks to neutralize or contain the attacks launched against it by absorbing them into the "spectacle" or by pro­ jecting its own meanings and goals onto these oppositional activities.
-Bruce Brown, Marx, Freud and the CritiqueofEverydayLife (1973)

This is the term you’re looking for. It’s essentially giving a name to what Hebdige expounded upon in a specific subcultural and fashion context.

[Unkle Fleak]

Dark gothic maga

Kanye sux on two threads one day. Yes. Life is good

[Shtonk]

Fucking hell, this is what I'm talking about! You guys are awesome! Posted the same to r/askphilosophy and didn't get a goddamn thing there! Gonna try to batch answer to you guys' super valuable input.

I've skimmed over most of Debord's influential texts and, like Fisher, I sympathize with their sentiment entirely but for what I'm trying to do with the film, they're both a little too damning and aggro in their rhethoric. I'm trying to pair relatively formal and descriptive descriptions with image-material that creates the verdict and the meaning. If the text is already passing judgement, the images become mere illustrations, which is why I've relegated Debord to a side-chapter based on the "Dérive" and some imagery of cruising around a city, instead of putting him at the center.

A similar problem is Baudrillard because he's too directly on-topic, plus Borden has pretty much pilfered that more architectural/aesthetic angle entirely and I'm not trying to do a video illustration of Borden (I also don't agree with some of his more romantic takes on street skating)

"Recuperation" by Debord and "Reterritorialization" by Deleuze/Guattari both seem really great but in both cases I'm having a hard time finding a direct quote from the respective authors defining or outlining the concept in a way that would be coherent with images of commodified street-skateboarding. Especially Recuperation by Debord or the Situationists in a broader sense seems to be a concept erected by his readers/fans in hindsight, it doesn't seem like they defined and referenced that terminology very much in their own writing. I'll look further into Deleuze/Guattari but having my doubts I'll find something really useful from them. I've ruled out using secondary sources describing someone else's concepts, althought that would make things much much easier, it just feels lazy.

Have looked into Hebdige and his concept here seems to be based mostly around Lefebvre, who has a great quote but is also very heavily featured in Borden, which is why I'm hesitant. I'd love to use Reterritorialization, if anyone has a snappy quote at the ready I'd be eternally grateful, otherwise might have to go with Lefebvre.

Thanks again for all your input!

[fruits, nuts, + seeds:)]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychogeography

i guarantee debord/situationistism has already covered whatever you're trying to express w/r/t reintepretation of your surroundings vis a vis marxism

but also your central thesis is that skateboarding has "revolutionary potential" that's being commodified via culture industry and i think we can throw all the relevant marxist/post-marxist thinkers at you and you'll never be able to square that circle.

[S.]

Fucking hell, this is what I'm talking about! You guys are awesome! Posted the same to r/askphilosophy and didn't get a goddamn thing there! Gonna try to batch answer to you guys' super valuable input.

I've skimmed over most of Debord's influential texts and, like Fisher, I sympathize with their sentiment entirely but for what I'm trying to do with the film, they're both a little too damning and aggro in their rhethoric. I'm trying to pair relatively formal and descriptive descriptions with image-material that creates the verdict and the meaning. If the text is already passing judgement, the images become mere illustrations, which is why I've relegated Debord to a side-chapter based on the "Dérive" and some imagery of cruising around a city, instead of putting him at the center.

A similar problem is Baudrillard because he's too directly on-topic, plus Borden has pretty much pilfered that more architectural/aesthetic angle entirely and I'm not trying to do a video illustration of Borden (I also don't agree with some of his more romantic takes on street skating)

"Recuperation" by Debord and "Reterritorialization" by Deleuze/Guattari both seem really great but in both cases I'm having a hard time finding a direct quote from the respective authors defining or outlining the concept in a way that would be coherent with images of commodified street-skateboarding. Especially Recuperation by Debord or the Situationists in a broader sense seems to be a concept erected by his readers/fans in hindsight, it doesn't seem like they defined and referenced that terminology very much in their own writing. I'll look further into Deleuze/Guattari but having my doubts I'll find something really useful from them. I've ruled out using secondary sources describing someone else's concepts, althought that would make things much much easier, it just feels lazy.

Have looked into Hebdige and his concept here seems to be based mostly around Lefebvre, who has a great quote but is also very heavily featured in Borden, which is why I'm hesitant. I'd love to use Reterritorialization, if anyone has a snappy quote at the ready I'd be eternally grateful, otherwise might have to go with Lefebvre.

Thanks again for all your input!

According to Deleuze/Guattari early street skating could be be considered as having revolutionary potential, because it was experimental and creative practice. There was no fixed goal beyond trying shit and finding new things. There were no institutions and fixed definitions of street skating, yet. It had no fixed direction and was in flux (deterritorialization).
Today arguably street skating has become institutionalized (Olympics, street league, skateboarding at high-schools) and commercialized (skate teams, crews are also brands, you can sort of become a skater by simply buying the right products) etc.

For deterritorialization and good quotes that apply to skating check: Deleuze “dialogues II“, chapter “many politics“

[oyolar]

It’s been a while since I read it, but Hebdige does talk about the process of reassimilation of punk style into the mainstream. I don’t remember if there is one specific term given in the book that, but I’m pretty sure he does describe the method of recuperation that would be helpful.

[double fakie ollie grind]

Came here to post about de/reterritorialization but I see someone already has that covered. Gotta say, pleasantly surprised as I was not expecting to see this sort of thing on slap. I will say it’s not exactly 1:1 what you are looking for, and some concepts from deleuze and guattari tend to get oversimplified in the interest of legibility, but the framework definitely works for your project. If you are expecting to get a clear view of their philosophy with only primary sources godspeed, but you’re gonna have a rough time. No shame in consulting secondary sources, especially for something so dense and rife with obscure references (often uncited). The situationist’s recuperation is probably closer to what you are looking for and more accessible, but I think deterritorialization is the more interesting lens to view this through (though d&g would say that their ideas are not meant to be flatly applied as theoretical lenses through which to view existing relations/phenomena, but more like… methods that are to be enacted to create new ones).

[Shtonk]

you guys are awesome! S. I'm looking into your ref right now, thanks in advance, gonna credit the lot of you if this ever sees the light of day

@S. I've gone throught that chapter - what a read haha. But I didn't really find a good line in there that would suit my angle. He seems to be talking about reterritorialization in much more aggro terms (colonisation, sexism, war-machines), I didn't find a moment where he talks about the more subtle undermining and incorporating of critical phenomena. I very much do appreciate you making me read some of that stuff in the original though. While I find it woefully conjectural and pathologically psychoanalyst, it certainly does fill a void in my education Also, I may be completely wrong in my evaluation here

[yghartsyrt]

Fucking hell, this is what I'm talking about! You guys are awesome! Posted the same to r/askphilosophy and didn't get a goddamn thing there! Gonna try to batch answer to you guys' super valuable input.

I've skimmed over most of Debord's influential texts and, like Fisher, I sympathize with their sentiment entirely but for what I'm trying to do with the film, they're both a little too damning and aggro in their rhethoric. I'm trying to pair relatively formal and descriptive descriptions with image-material that creates the verdict and the meaning. If the text is already passing judgement, the images become mere illustrations, which is why I've relegated Debord to a side-chapter based on the "Dérive" and some imagery of cruising around a city, instead of putting him at the center.

A similar problem is Baudrillard because he's too directly on-topic, plus Borden has pretty much pilfered that more architectural/aesthetic angle entirely and I'm not trying to do a video illustration of Borden (I also don't agree with some of his more romantic takes on street skating)

"Recuperation" by Debord and "Reterritorialization" by Deleuze/Guattari both seem really great but in both cases I'm having a hard time finding a direct quote from the respective authors defining or outlining the concept in a way that would be coherent with images of commodified street-skateboarding. Especially Recuperation by Debord or the Situationists in a broader sense seems to be a concept erected by his readers/fans in hindsight, it doesn't seem like they defined and referenced that terminology very much in their own writing. I'll look further into Deleuze/Guattari but having my doubts I'll find something really useful from them. I've ruled out using secondary sources describing someone else's concepts, althought that would make things much much easier, it just feels lazy.

Have looked into Hebdige and his concept here seems to be based mostly around Lefebvre, who has a great quote but is also very heavily featured in Borden, which is why I'm hesitant. I'd love to use Reterritorialization, if anyone has a snappy quote at the ready I'd be eternally grateful, otherwise might have to go with Lefebvre.

Thanks again for all your input!

It’s kind of ironic to hope to find such a complex concept condensed in one catchy quote especially with deleuze/guattari.


The perspective you are looking for, didn’t start in France though, here’s a passage from Marx - communist manifesto

„The bourgeoisie cannot exist without constantly revolutionising the instruments of production,
and thereby the relations of production, and with them the whole relations of society.
Conservation of the old modes of production in unaltered form, was, on the contrary, the first
condition of existence for all earlier industrial classes. Constant revolutionising of production,
uninterrupted disturbance of all social conditions, everlasting uncertainty and agitation
distinguish the bourgeois epoch from all earlier ones. All fixed, fast-frozen relations, with their
train of ancient and venerable prejudices and opinions, are swept away, all new-formed ones
become antiquated before they can ossify. All that is solid melts into air, all that is holy is
profaned, and man is at last compelled to face with sober senses his real conditions of life, and his
relations with his kind.
The need of a constantly expanding market for its products chases the bourgeoisie over the entire
surface of the globe. It must nestle everywhere, settle everywhere, establish connexions
everywhere.“


The chapter about culture industry in Adorno/Horkheimer - dialects of enlightenment is also recommended. But probably no quick quote to be found

[RoaryMcTwang]

Hunting for quotes with these complex theories is always a challenge I find... @Shtonk  Reading your idea I was also thinking of Gramsci's concept of hegemony,  and how it has been deployed in British cultural studies by Stuart Hall etc. Essentially describes the cycle of rebellion against, followed by incorporation into capitalism as the essence of the development of all popular culture. 
As to a quote from Hebdige, how's this: ‘Youth cultural styles may begin by issuing symbolic challenges, but they must end by establishing new sets of conventions; by creating new commodities, new industries or rejuvenating old ones’ (Hebdige, Dick (1979), Subculture: The Meaning of Style, London: Methuen. 96)."
Good luck with the project!

[S.]

Expand Quote

Fucking hell, this is what I'm talking about! You guys are awesome! Posted the same to r/askphilosophy and didn't get a goddamn thing there! Gonna try to batch answer to you guys' super valuable input.

I've skimmed over most of Debord's influential texts and, like Fisher, I sympathize with their sentiment entirely but for what I'm trying to do with the film, they're both a little too damning and aggro in their rhethoric. I'm trying to pair relatively formal and descriptive descriptions with image-material that creates the verdict and the meaning. If the text is already passing judgement, the images become mere illustrations, which is why I've relegated Debord to a side-chapter based on the "Dérive" and some imagery of cruising around a city, instead of putting him at the center.

A similar problem is Baudrillard because he's too directly on-topic, plus Borden has pretty much pilfered that more architectural/aesthetic angle entirely and I'm not trying to do a video illustration of Borden (I also don't agree with some of his more romantic takes on street skating)

"Recuperation" by Debord and "Reterritorialization" by Deleuze/Guattari both seem really great but in both cases I'm having a hard time finding a direct quote from the respective authors defining or outlining the concept in a way that would be coherent with images of commodified street-skateboarding. Especially Recuperation by Debord or the Situationists in a broader sense seems to be a concept erected by his readers/fans in hindsight, it doesn't seem like they defined and referenced that terminology very much in their own writing. I'll look further into Deleuze/Guattari but having my doubts I'll find something really useful from them. I've ruled out using secondary sources describing someone else's concepts, althought that would make things much much easier, it just feels lazy.

Have looked into Hebdige and his concept here seems to be based mostly around Lefebvre, who has a great quote but is also very heavily featured in Borden, which is why I'm hesitant. I'd love to use Reterritorialization, if anyone has a snappy quote at the ready I'd be eternally grateful, otherwise might have to go with Lefebvre.

Thanks again for all your input!

[close]

It’s kind of ironic to hope to find such a complex concept condensed in one catchy quote especially with deleuze/guattari.


The perspective you are looking for, didn’t start in France though, here’s a passage from Marx - communist manifesto

„The bourgeoisie cannot exist without constantly revolutionising the instruments of production,
and thereby the relations of production, and with them the whole relations of society.
Conservation of the old modes of production in unaltered form, was, on the contrary, the first
condition of existence for all earlier industrial classes. Constant revolutionising of production,
uninterrupted disturbance of all social conditions, everlasting uncertainty and agitation
distinguish the bourgeois epoch from all earlier ones. All fixed, fast-frozen relations, with their
train of ancient and venerable prejudices and opinions, are swept away, all new-formed ones
become antiquated before they can ossify. All that is solid melts into air, all that is holy is
profaned, and man is at last compelled to face with sober senses his real conditions of life, and his
relations with his kind.
The need of a constantly expanding market for its products chases the bourgeoisie over the entire
surface of the globe. It must nestle everywhere, settle everywhere, establish connexions
everywhere.“


The chapter about culture industry in Adorno/Horkheimer - dialects of enlightenment is also recommended. But probably no quick quote to be found

That's probably my favorite quote of Marx.

I think this is also the part of Marx that Deleuze/Guattari are most faceful to: The idea that capitalism constantly pushes and expands beyond itself and that it does not allow for any fixed identities or static systems. I love that image: "All that is solid melts into air..." For them there was no outside of capitalism, but capitalism contained in itself alot of revolutionary potential, that its also constantly needed to stop and reintegrate. Hence the idea of accelerationsism, they are credited with having come up with: Push capitalist tendencies too an extreme and capitalism itself will collapse. A terrible idea IMO, that is now much more prominent on the right with fascists like Yarvin. 4chan fascism is basically: Push post modern culture "anything goes, truth does not exist" to such an extreme that people will ask for someone to violently enforce a a fixed reality (fascism).

Anyway, I think street skateboarding was made possible by the architecture of post modern cities (Ocean Howell's has aegued this), but also by the consumer culture of the time (anti-conformist, anti-hippy etc).

I like Adorno, but I am certain he would have hated street skateboarding. His cultural tastes were very bourgeois. Basically anything that moved your hips or your body he did not trust. He was a very heady guy.

[TheLurper]

Expand Quote

Expand Quote

Fucking hell, this is what I'm talking about! You guys are awesome! Posted the same to r/askphilosophy and didn't get a goddamn thing there! Gonna try to batch answer to you guys' super valuable input.

I've skimmed over most of Debord's influential texts and, like Fisher, I sympathize with their sentiment entirely but for what I'm trying to do with the film, they're both a little too damning and aggro in their rhethoric. I'm trying to pair relatively formal and descriptive descriptions with image-material that creates the verdict and the meaning. If the text is already passing judgement, the images become mere illustrations, which is why I've relegated Debord to a side-chapter based on the "Dérive" and some imagery of cruising around a city, instead of putting him at the center.

A similar problem is Baudrillard because he's too directly on-topic, plus Borden has pretty much pilfered that more architectural/aesthetic angle entirely and I'm not trying to do a video illustration of Borden (I also don't agree with some of his more romantic takes on street skating)

"Recuperation" by Debord and "Reterritorialization" by Deleuze/Guattari both seem really great but in both cases I'm having a hard time finding a direct quote from the respective authors defining or outlining the concept in a way that would be coherent with images of commodified street-skateboarding. Especially Recuperation by Debord or the Situationists in a broader sense seems to be a concept erected by his readers/fans in hindsight, it doesn't seem like they defined and referenced that terminology very much in their own writing. I'll look further into Deleuze/Guattari but having my doubts I'll find something really useful from them. I've ruled out using secondary sources describing someone else's concepts, althought that would make things much much easier, it just feels lazy.

Have looked into Hebdige and his concept here seems to be based mostly around Lefebvre, who has a great quote but is also very heavily featured in Borden, which is why I'm hesitant. I'd love to use Reterritorialization, if anyone has a snappy quote at the ready I'd be eternally grateful, otherwise might have to go with Lefebvre.

Thanks again for all your input!

[close]

It’s kind of ironic to hope to find such a complex concept condensed in one catchy quote especially with deleuze/guattari.


The perspective you are looking for, didn’t start in France though, here’s a passage from Marx - communist manifesto

„The bourgeoisie cannot exist without constantly revolutionising the instruments of production,
and thereby the relations of production, and with them the whole relations of society.
Conservation of the old modes of production in unaltered form, was, on the contrary, the first
condition of existence for all earlier industrial classes. Constant revolutionising of production,
uninterrupted disturbance of all social conditions, everlasting uncertainty and agitation
distinguish the bourgeois epoch from all earlier ones. All fixed, fast-frozen relations, with their
train of ancient and venerable prejudices and opinions, are swept away, all new-formed ones
become antiquated before they can ossify. All that is solid melts into air, all that is holy is
profaned, and man is at last compelled to face with sober senses his real conditions of life, and his
relations with his kind.
The need of a constantly expanding market for its products chases the bourgeoisie over the entire
surface of the globe. It must nestle everywhere, settle everywhere, establish connexions
everywhere.“


The chapter about culture industry in Adorno/Horkheimer - dialects of enlightenment is also recommended. But probably no quick quote to be found

[close]

That's probably my favorite quote of Marx.

I think this is also the part of Marx that Deleuze/Guattari are most faceful to: The idea that capitalism constantly pushes and expands beyond itself and that it does not allow for any fixed identities or static systems. I love that image: "All that is solid melts into air..." For them there was no outside of capitalism, but capitalism contained in itself alot of revolutionary potential, that its also constantly needed to stop and reintegrate. Hence the idea of accelerationsism, they are credited with having come up with: Push capitalist tendencies too an extreme and capitalism itself will collapse. A terrible idea IMO, that is now much more prominent on the right with fascists like Yarvin. 4chan fascism is basically: Push post modern culture "anything goes, truth does not exist" to such an extreme that people will ask for someone to violently enforce a a fixed reality (fascism).

Anyway, I think street skateboarding was made possible by the architecture of post modern cities (Ocean Howell's has aegued this), but also by the consumer culture of the time (anti-conformist, anti-hippy etc).

I like Adorno, but I am certain he would have hated street skateboarding. His cultural tastes were very bourgeois. Basically anything that moved your hips or your body he did not trust. He was a very heady guy.

He certainly would have hated SLS or X-Games, but I could see a small chance of him not hating In Search of the Miraculous. SLS is dumbed down to where anyone can understand what is happening, but understanding some of the more unique forms of street skateboarding takes effort.

However, odds are, he probably would have dismissed all forms of skateboarding. I don't think any skater has enough steez to skate to Schoenberg

[RoaryMcTwang]

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Fucking hell, this is what I'm talking about! You guys are awesome! Posted the same to r/askphilosophy and didn't get a goddamn thing there! Gonna try to batch answer to you guys' super valuable input.

I've skimmed over most of Debord's influential texts and, like Fisher, I sympathize with their sentiment entirely but for what I'm trying to do with the film, they're both a little too damning and aggro in their rhethoric. I'm trying to pair relatively formal and descriptive descriptions with image-material that creates the verdict and the meaning. If the text is already passing judgement, the images become mere illustrations, which is why I've relegated Debord to a side-chapter based on the "Dérive" and some imagery of cruising around a city, instead of putting him at the center.

A similar problem is Baudrillard because he's too directly on-topic, plus Borden has pretty much pilfered that more architectural/aesthetic angle entirely and I'm not trying to do a video illustration of Borden (I also don't agree with some of his more romantic takes on street skating)

"Recuperation" by Debord and "Reterritorialization" by Deleuze/Guattari both seem really great but in both cases I'm having a hard time finding a direct quote from the respective authors defining or outlining the concept in a way that would be coherent with images of commodified street-skateboarding. Especially Recuperation by Debord or the Situationists in a broader sense seems to be a concept erected by his readers/fans in hindsight, it doesn't seem like they defined and referenced that terminology very much in their own writing. I'll look further into Deleuze/Guattari but having my doubts I'll find something really useful from them. I've ruled out using secondary sources describing someone else's concepts, althought that would make things much much easier, it just feels lazy.

Have looked into Hebdige and his concept here seems to be based mostly around Lefebvre, who has a great quote but is also very heavily featured in Borden, which is why I'm hesitant. I'd love to use Reterritorialization, if anyone has a snappy quote at the ready I'd be eternally grateful, otherwise might have to go with Lefebvre.

Thanks again for all your input!

[close]

It’s kind of ironic to hope to find such a complex concept condensed in one catchy quote especially with deleuze/guattari.


The perspective you are looking for, didn’t start in France though, here’s a passage from Marx - communist manifesto

„The bourgeoisie cannot exist without constantly revolutionising the instruments of production,
and thereby the relations of production, and with them the whole relations of society.
Conservation of the old modes of production in unaltered form, was, on the contrary, the first
condition of existence for all earlier industrial classes. Constant revolutionising of production,
uninterrupted disturbance of all social conditions, everlasting uncertainty and agitation
distinguish the bourgeois epoch from all earlier ones. All fixed, fast-frozen relations, with their
train of ancient and venerable prejudices and opinions, are swept away, all new-formed ones
become antiquated before they can ossify. All that is solid melts into air, all that is holy is
profaned, and man is at last compelled to face with sober senses his real conditions of life, and his
relations with his kind.
The need of a constantly expanding market for its products chases the bourgeoisie over the entire
surface of the globe. It must nestle everywhere, settle everywhere, establish connexions
everywhere.“


The chapter about culture industry in Adorno/Horkheimer - dialects of enlightenment is also recommended. But probably no quick quote to be found

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That's probably my favorite quote of Marx.

I think this is also the part of Marx that Deleuze/Guattari are most faceful to: The idea that capitalism constantly pushes and expands beyond itself and that it does not allow for any fixed identities or static systems. I love that image: "All that is solid melts into air..." For them there was no outside of capitalism, but capitalism contained in itself alot of revolutionary potential, that its also constantly needed to stop and reintegrate. Hence the idea of accelerationsism, they are credited with having come up with: Push capitalist tendencies too an extreme and capitalism itself will collapse. A terrible idea IMO, that is now much more prominent on the right with fascists like Yarvin. 4chan fascism is basically: Push post modern culture "anything goes, truth does not exist" to such an extreme that people will ask for someone to violently enforce a a fixed reality (fascism).

Anyway, I think street skateboarding was made possible by the architecture of post modern cities (Ocean Howell's has aegued this), but also by the consumer culture of the time (anti-conformist, anti-hippy etc).

I like Adorno, but I am certain he would have hated street skateboarding. His cultural tastes were very bourgeois. Basically anything that moved your hips or your body he did not trust. He was a very heady guy.

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He certainly would have hated SLS or X-Games, but I could see a small chance of him not hating In Search of the Miraculous. SLS is dumbed down to where anyone can understand what is happening, but understanding some of the more unique forms of street skateboarding takes effort.

However, odds are, he probably would have dismissed all forms of skateboarding. I don't think any skater has enough steez to skate to Schoenberg

If you want to break your brain, try to imagine Adorno as a skater.

[yghartsyrt]

That's probably my favorite quote of Marx.

[…]

I like Adorno, but I am certain he would have hated street skateboarding. His cultural tastes were very bourgeois. Basically anything that moved your hips or your body he did not trust. He was a very heady guy.

That is also my favorite Marx quote. I really like how this small passage has so much to offer. The dialects of progress, the way that capitalism has the potential to swallow everything but also carries the potential of ending it in itself. It such a helpful and frightening image at the same time.

 Adorno and skating - not sure. He wasn’t always a heady guy in his private life. He was a fan of celebrating carnival for example. He disliked sport, but more because of its competitive character and the identification that come with it, so skateboarding wouldn’t fall under it. But not sure. Probably wouldn’t  care about it much.

[S.]

I don't think I would ever have an argument about this, but let's argue if Adorno would have liked street skateboarding.

I am no Adorno expert, but yesterday I did skate the High-School he attended...


It is highly unlikely Adorno would have liked street skating for the following reasons:

I had a disdain for "low culture" (popular culture).

You have to understand this in the context of his time and place. In Germany there is a long tradition of drawing a line between "high" (Hochkultur) and "low culture" (Popkultur). Something that is very foreign to most Americans. High culture is something like literature, art for arts sake and classical music.
Like many intellectuals of his generation the only real culture for Adorno was Hochkultur. Another reason was his experience with the mass movement of fascism, which relied on appropriating popular culture to mobilize minds and bodies for fascist causes. While early street skating certainly wasn't popular culture, it definitely wasn't Hochkultur. Despite this German philosopher Diedrich Diedrichsen used Adorno's philosophy for a monumental theory of Pop culture and music. I recommend it! 


Street skateboarding is related to Jazz and he hated jazz

Hell, he even wrote a pretty racist article on Jazz. You can explain this disdain with his personal experience (he was a failed musician and a composer and the "Neue Musik" he championed was never commercially successful). He also thought jazz was regressive: "The aim of jazz is the mechanical reproduction of a regressive moment, a castration symbolism. 'Give up your masculinity, let yourself be castrated,' the eunuchlike sound of the jazz band both mocks and proclaims, 'and you will be rewarded, accepted into a fraternity which shares the mystery of impotence with you, a mystery revealed at the moment of the initiation rite." He probably would have seen street skateboarding as regressive as well.


He mistrusted passion (strong affects) and "losing yourself" in something.

Again this goes back to his experience of fascism as a mass-movement. He might have seen paralells between groups of aggressive young men skating street spots and backyard pools to early SA groups training JiuJitsu, getting drunk and beating up communists. He would have been wrong, but not entirely.

[yghartsyrt]

Just did some research about sports and Adorno and now I’m still not sure where he would stand. He disliked sport in general, because of its masochist character to endure pain / to make yourself hard, which only trains the body to operate the machinery more efficiently. Organized leisure time is also something, he wasn’t fond of. For him - especially under the impression of anti Germany and their organized leisure time - this always reeked of making the bond between the individual and the system stronger.

On the other hand, the absence of competition, doing. Something that serves no purpose and that is a hermeneutical action, was something he strongly supported. His small essay „sur l‘eau“
Is especially interesting in this regards.


Interesting topic.

[fruits, nuts, + seeds:)]

so funny that jazz was simultaneously ultra-rhythmic sexualized jungle music and a castrating soul-less instrument of collective impotence to the white intellectual

[yghartsyrt]

so funny that jazz was simultaneously ultra-rhythmic sexualized jungle music and a castrating soul-less instrument of collective impotence to the white intellectual

Don’t mix those two statements. Because that would do Adorno no fair justice. His statement regarding Jazz might sound weird from todays perspective, but the main point here is, that 40s jazz music was one of the first pop-cultural available musics (besides chansons in the 20s. It has less to do with jazz in general and more with pop-culture and pop music. It just happened to be jazz.

[S.]

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so funny that jazz was simultaneously ultra-rhythmic sexualized jungle music and a castrating soul-less instrument of collective impotence to the white intellectual

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Don’t mix those two statements. Because that would do Adorno no fair justice. His statement regarding Jazz might sound weird from todays perspective, but the main point here is, that 40s jazz music was one of the first pop-cultural available musics (besides chansons in the 20s. It has less to do with jazz in general and more with pop-culture and pop music. It just happened to be jazz.

I don’t know, Duke Ellington and Louis Armstrong may have been popular music, but they were pretty good!