2 NYPD Officers Shot Execution Style

[essal]

via and butthole, I agree with you on the accountability thing. I can't however agree with you that every cop who shoots someone should be convicted, since there are tons of justified shoots in world every single day. In my eyes, accountability does not equal a trail. The cops I've worked with in the US had one hell of a process after one of their officers shot a guy with a gun (don't worry, he was white) to figure out if the shoot was justified or not. I imagine that most LEOs work exactly the same way, and it's probably protocol after shots are fired by cops. Video would make it easier, but it bring another set of problems and cost (like data storage).

Tufty, you sound like you're a contestant at Miss USA... I want world peace, end poverty and that everyone should be treated equal. That shit simply doesn't work, not in the US nor anywhere else in the world.

[via]

via and butthole, I agree with you on the accountability thing. I can't however agree with you that every cop who shoots someone should be convicted, since there are tons of justified shoots in world every single day. In my eyes, accountability does not equal a trail. The cops I've worked with in the US had one hell of a process after one of their officers shot a guy with a gun (don't worry, he was white) to figure out if the shoot was justified or not. I imagine that most LEOs work exactly the same way, and it's probably protocol after shots are fired by cops. Video would make it easier, but it bring another set of problems and cost (like data storage).

Tufty, you sound like you're a contestant at Miss USA... I want world peace, end poverty and that everyone should be treated equal. That shit simply doesn't work, not in the US nor anywhere else in the world.

I have no problem with a trial every time a cop uses his gun, except the impracticality of it. I think you should have to justify the use of lethal force every time you use it. If there is any chance of using non lethal force, that should be the first option, and if you chose to skip that option, the penalties should be those of a civilian shooting someone.

I know a cop has to justify using a firearm to his department through paperwork, but that obviously hasn't been any kind of deterrent. Unarmed people are still dying at the hands of police officers. There's no way they could logically justify that, and yet somehow, there is acquittal after acquittal. 

[Tufty]

 Οn the contrary with the Miss USA I back what I say and I am not pretty. That shit can work and even if it cant work we can try. We obviously dont try because some people dont want us to.

[shark tits]

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via and butthole, I agree with you on the accountability thing. I can't however agree with you that every cop who shoots someone should be convicted, since there are tons of justified shoots in world every single day. In my eyes, accountability does not equal a trail. The cops I've worked with in the US had one hell of a process after one of their officers shot a guy with a gun (don't worry, he was white) to figure out if the shoot was justified or not. I imagine that most LEOs work exactly the same way, and it's probably protocol after shots are fired by cops. Video would make it easier, but it bring another set of problems and cost (like data storage).

Tufty, you sound like you're a contestant at Miss USA... I want world peace, end poverty and that everyone should be treated equal. That shit simply doesn't work, not in the US nor anywhere else in the world.

[close]

I have no problem with a trial every time a cop uses his gun, except the impracticality of it. I think you should have to justify the use of lethal force every time you use it. If there is any chance of using non lethal force, that should be the first option, and if you chose to skip that option, the penalties should be those of a civilian shooting someone.

I know a cop has to justify using a firearm to his department through paperwork, but that obviously hasn't been any kind of deterrent. Unarmed people are still dying at the hands of police officers. There's no way they could logically justify that, and yet somehow, there is acquittal after acquittal. 

i think if they were aware there would be real consequences they'd be less inclined [by a huge margin] to open fire, beat or choke to death the citizens. as such it prolly wouldn't be as impractical. as it stands w/ just paperwork, yeah it'd be out of control.
also, if cops would be held personally responsible in civil suits, i think that would help and we wouldn't just be suing ourselves.
all of a sudden being a cop seems like 50% less fun and maybe that's a good thing too. pay for your fast food, fatsos.

[essal]

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via and butthole, I agree with you on the accountability thing. I can't however agree with you that every cop who shoots someone should be convicted, since there are tons of justified shoots in world every single day. In my eyes, accountability does not equal a trail. The cops I've worked with in the US had one hell of a process after one of their officers shot a guy with a gun (don't worry, he was white) to figure out if the shoot was justified or not. I imagine that most LEOs work exactly the same way, and it's probably protocol after shots are fired by cops. Video would make it easier, but it bring another set of problems and cost (like data storage).

Tufty, you sound like you're a contestant at Miss USA... I want world peace, end poverty and that everyone should be treated equal. That shit simply doesn't work, not in the US nor anywhere else in the world.

[close]

I have no problem with a trial every time a cop uses his gun, except the impracticality of it. I think you should have to justify the use of lethal force every time you use it. If there is any chance of using non lethal force, that should be the first option, and if you chose to skip that option, the penalties should be those of a civilian shooting someone.

I know a cop has to justify using a firearm to his department through paperwork, but that obviously hasn't been any kind of deterrent. Unarmed people are still dying at the hands of police officers. There's no way they could logically justify that, and yet somehow, there is acquittal after acquittal. 

[close]

i think if they were aware there would be real consequences they'd be less inclined [by a huge margin] to open fire, beat or choke to death the citizens. as such it prolly wouldn't be as impractical. as it stands w/ just paperwork, yeah it'd be out of control.
also, if cops would be held personally responsible in civil suits, i think that would help and we wouldn't just be suing ourselves.
all of a sudden being a cop seems like 50% less fun and maybe that's a good thing too. pay for your fast food, fatsos.

good input guys. I however don't think you'd have a functioning police system with buttholes suggestions. You'd end up sitting on your ass in an office with fear of doing actual police work due to the risk. I wouldn't work with those parameters.

Would all this be needed if every officer had a camera? Would that be clear enough evidence if it's a justified or non-justified action?

Tufty, it's called communism. Ask China or the Soviets how that shit worked...

[Alan]

To believe that a system other than capitalism isn't possible is a really sad indicator of how f'd up this society is. Kudos to Tufty for actually wanting changes that aren't simply cosmetic.

[via]

Reform of the justice system is realistic (kind of). Uprooting our government entirely to enstate a completely new system is not.

[sexualhelon]

Anytime any reform is slated to come about (or has potential to) this country's wealthy insiders and elite slash it down. The police force along with the military is only there to protect them as they see fit - or so it seems. Just the other day I was watching a documentary on community resistance and conditional patriotism in cold war Los Angeles which examined the resistance to displacement of residents of Chavez Ravine. It showed all these old newspaper ads saying to vote against public housing - that you're a communist or a socialist and will bring our country down if you're for it.

Anyway, I've been to plenty of country's where the common police seemingly didn't have guns but military was always nearby and would be there just as fast if need be. Police should be held accountable for their actions. The law makes it particularly hard to prosecute because it says that if the police office "legitimately" felt their life was in danger they had the right to shoot and kill. To me, just because they're a police officer doesn't make that right at all. If you can't stand your ground mentally and physically then you shouldn't be in a position to protect and serve the public. Police should be put  through rigorous training - even have multiple tests for mental and physical capability a year. I don't think it's acceptable for me to ever see a police officer that's noticeably out of shape or not all there in the head. No quotas, no incentives for putting people in jail, but being held accountable and doing the job you signed up for. If there's a call that comes in for a domestic dispute, crack house, or robbery then the cop should run to that and not give a jaywalking ticket instead.

[posguy]

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There is a lot of stupid shit being said in this thread. No, no one wants to live in a policeless, anarchistic society. But the current system is failing miserably as well.

Basically, it all boils down to accountability. Police have been shown time and time again that they will not be held accountable for their actions, regardless of how egregious they are. They are literally getting away wth murder, which ultimately perpetuates the problem, starting a snowball effect.

And the public has tried to put faith in the proper channels of resistance, trusting in court systems to bring justice, but the courts have failed them on every account. Protesting is shown useless, and often broken up, or demonized by authority figures... Lumping protesters and petitioners together with conspiracy/anarchist hooligans, belittling the righteous cries for justice as "America hating liberals."

So what are people to do? I don't necessarily agree with retaliation killings... But I understand why people are so angry. Some people feel like there isn't anything else to do but fight with violence. The peaceful tactics have made no ground, and the American public is told time and time again that their authority figures are above the law, and that we are just supposed to live with it.

I don't have an answer. The justice system has failed us, over and over.  I don't neccisairly think violence is the right answer, but if you have a better solution, there's an entire country waiting to hear it.

[close]

This.

Also, if a police officer's life has so much more value than that of a civilian, their actions should be under more scrutiny - their mistakes have a much larger impact and they need to be held accountable.

[close]

This point is something that's rarely touched on as well. There should be zero tolerance for an "accidental" death at the hands of a police officer. No one has forced them to be in the line of fire, so to speak. Being an officer is a career chosen and persued, with training for high stress situations. If you have signed up as a person to be trusted with lethal weapons to uphold law, when you make a mistake with one, it should come with a higher consequence than that of someone with no training (or at least the same consequence). If you can't be trusted with calm, split second decision making, you should not be trusted with high stress situations, much less a lethal weapon on top of it.

"Oops" is not an acceptable answer when you're talking about life and death. If a cop feels threatened by an unarmed teenager, and feels he cannot best him physically, in a non lethal way, he should not be a cop.

[close]

which shootings are you guys referring too? i'm assuming the bart shooting because that's the only one i recall being explained as an accident and not as a justified which is an entirely different thing. none of the recent shootings have been explained as accidental unless i've missed something.

Do you remember how many accidental shootings there were during the Christopher Dorner manhunt because the Police failed to identify their target and blind fired. Many of the recent shootings have not been accidental as much as purely unwarranted, maybe attributed to the police's lack of training. Like the kid who was shot and killed in his own home by police after they were called to help calm him down
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2535036/Mentally-ill-18-year-old-Keith-Vidal-shot-dead-Southport-Police-mortified-family-parents-called-help-schizophrenic-episode.html

[L33Tg33k]

Cops: Stupid enough to think they'll make a difference, or a big enough assholes to want power over others.

[Sleazy]

do people really think that someone resisting arrest isn't enough to justify deadly force? for the cop in the video below (super graphic, i regret watching it) to still be alive he'd have had to have used deadly force before the weapon was visible. he would have had to have shot when the guy was resisting. once the assault riffle was out it he was out gunned and it was game over.



what happened to that kid with the bart police was tragic and that cop should have been punished. but in these other cases the person getting shot always seems to be resisting, acting aggressive, carrying a weapon (real or fake). is it really that hard to not resist arrest and to not act aggressive towards cops? is that something that is an unrealistic expectation? is it really that big a deal if you have to get bailed out and then go to trial? i've been arrested several times and i knew full well that punching the cop or acting sketchy could result in getting killed. i mean was chapel that far off in this video?



seems like every recent case involved either resisting arrest or holding a weapon. that's why they are getting dismissed. that's why the laws are the way they are. having camera probably wouldn't help because all they would do is show the cops shooting people who are assaulting them, aggressively resisting, etc... but that's not what's being discussed. it seems that some people think that if a defendant isn't carrying a weapon it's never ok to fire on them. to me, if cops wait till they see a weapon it's going to put them in a lot of danger a lot of the time and it doesn't seem unreasonable to me to expect that people follow the directions given to them when being question by police.

and people actually not sympathizing with these cops getting gunned down sitting in their car are just pathetic. that shit is horrible.

[Tufty]

Tufty, it's called communism. Ask China or the Soviets how that shit worked...

 Of course its called communism, because philosophically people form communities to help each other not to play monopoly and fuck the ones that lose the game. And even if anyone was starting with the same money, that would be as bad.

 I dont have to ask them I have read enough to have my own opinion instead of what the capitalistic system reproduces through the numerous mechanisms of ideology such as the sick traditional family, school, media, private funded universities and stupid-sociopath people in high positions.

 Anyway you can discuss whatever about the police reform or the justice system but you will be here or somewhere else discussing the same problems again and again until you realise that the problem is the economical system and the way it forms our relationships.

[abudabi]

in the michael brown thread, someone posted a link that listed a bunch of cases where the police should have had footage of what happened, but their equipment mysteriously failed. so if cameras are gonna have any effect on police, some kind of legal change needs to be made that makes it harder for cops to destroy incriminating footage.
i think the main problem is that smart people arent motivated to become police. it's gotta be one of the most morally demanding jobs, but it's impossible to filter people for a cop's position in the same way you would do so for a judge. cops are expected to make intelligent decisions on the drop of a hat and even the smartest people cant do that every single time.
throw in the fact that most criminals are hella stupid and you have a recipe for disaster.
i guess what im saying here is that we're fucked.

[essal]

is it really that hard to not resist arrest and to not act aggressive towards cops?

It's illegal to resist arrest in all states..
For the rest you wrote, that's the problem with the UOF ladder. It's often hard for people without LEO (or Mil) experience to realize all the fucked up situations you end up in and all the fucked up choices you have to make. Is the guy pulling out a gun or his license? Is that a bb gun or a real gun?
This picture simplifies if, but you have to make the correct choice in a split second;


adudabi, you are spot on about why I don't want to be a cop.

[posguy]

do people really think that someone resisting arrest isn't enough to justify deadly force? for the cop in the video below (super graphic, i regret watching it) to still be alive he'd have had to have used deadly force before the weapon was visible. he would have had to have shot when the guy was resisting. once the assault riffle was out it he was out gunned and it was game over.

A perfect case of them either not being allowed to fire or not being competent/trained to fire. As soon as the old man pulled out a rifle the officers should have and would have been justified in shooting him. I too regret watching it :/ I did hear him say several times before any shots were fired for the weapon to be put down. I think that justifies the use of deadly force. It doesn't matter how big your gun is, it matters how much you train with it and how comfortable you are making the hard choice of putting someone else down before they do you. It is very sad that they were gunned down like that but the boiling point of tensions has been reached many times over particularly in this century. Unfortunately I don't see this getting better, only worse.

[essal]

I just read on another forum that FD and EMS in NYC have received threats from the "cop haters" and they are being told to "not to conduct any outside activities until further notice (Drill, building inspection, etc) and are being told to keep our time outside to the minimum."

If you fuck with firefighters and EMS, then you deserve to fucking die in a hole filled with shit. I can *understand* that someone feels hate against cops, but if you spill that hate onto FD and EMS, then you are a fucking worthless oxygen thief.

[skate_bored]

i just wonder...if we've been working towards equal treatment of people of color for the past 50+ years but then we have an entire culture that simultaneously promotes drugs, weapons and a general "fuck the police" attitude, then how do we get anywhere?

[GoodguyEh]

i just wonder...if we've been working towards equal treatment of people of color for the past 50+ years but then we have an entire culture that simultaneously promotes drugs, weapons and a general "fuck the police" attitude, then how do we get anywhere?

I agree, they're their worst enemy when it comes to racial equality. whenever some white kid dresses all G and sells drugs and packs heat, black people are the first to say "what do you think your black or something? your white!" then they get mad when people associate black people with guns and violence. Thing is I know more white people that act like dumb thugs, and the majority of my sober/successful friends are of colour.

[fulltechnicalskizzy]

I think we're all missing the real issue here.

[nice_guy_2]

I think we're all missing the real issue here.

The trill issue is this

Cops: Stupid enough to think they'll make a difference, or a big enough assholes to want power over others.

leetegee is a philosphers stone

[Ronald Wilson Reagan]

Sleazy, here is the criminal code in NYC for resisting arrest:
LAW § 205.30 : NY Code - Section 205.30: Resisting arrest. A person is guilty of resisting arrest when he intentionally prevents or attempts to prevent a police officer or peace officer from effecting an authorized arrest of himself or another person. Resisting arrest is a class A misdemeanor.

Class A misdemeanor means up to one year and jail and/or a fine, not instant execution on the street. Deadly force is not justified in unarmed resisting arrest. The footage you used is for shock factor, but do those cops that got gunned down mean police should always have their guns drawn any time they are in public? Of course not.  Being an armed law enforcement officer means power, but it also means risk.

Essal- your bb gun image is disgusting. Is that a response to Tamir Rice? Because that 12 year old didn't point the gun at the cop at all, and its not illegal to have a bb gun- especially when the person who called it in said they thought it was a fake gun.
Now, in terms of reforms? Here are a few starting points:
-Don't let local DA's bring indictments to grand juries- there are already too many close ties. And those two cops weren't found innocent or not guilty, they were not charged after local DA's brought weak cases against them.
-Create more community-based policing programs, and eliminate programs like broken windows, which treated every member of the community as a hostile person
-The justice department needs to bring civil rights law suits against the NYPD, the City of New York, and the individual officer, Dan Pantaleo, with exceptionally harsh penalties, including federal oversight by a civil rights commission designated to review all existing policies and any future policies, as well as review any citizen complaint
-A separate (not internal affairs) department where citizens can create complaints that investigates and prosecutes police wrong-doing
-Mandated regular psychological exams for all active officers.
-No more paid time off during investigations, just suspensions, with back pay IF the officer is found innocent

That's just a start. The current situation with police accountability is untenable, and many steps need to be taken and continued until this epidemic ends. It destroys community trust in police, and makes them ineffective.

[nice_guy_2]

why dont you study law ^^^

[Tracer]

"resisting arrest" "domestic dispute" all charges with grey areas awarded to police almost always. I've been "resisting arrest" while getting elbowed in the head on my back 2 officers

these days everyone should have dashcam running at all times, its not illegal to record police. they hate it so much but stand your ground it scares the shit out of them. thousands are in prison right now because they didn't have audio or video, usually one will do

[essal]

Essal- your bb gun image is disgusting. Is that a response to Tamir Rice? Because that 12 year old didn't point the gun at the cop at all, and its not illegal to have a bb gun- especially when the person who called it in said they thought it was a fake gun.

No. I posted it as an example on how it's easy to make a fucked up decision, and why the UOF ladder isn't a magical place where you can evaluate every single step before you take action.

Community based policing? Like if you live in the 79th pct you police in the 79th pct? I think it's like that in NYC for the most part.. Or are you talking about something like a neighborhood watch deal? Cause that doesn't work when you see the police as your enemy and grow up learning that snitching is wrong. I don't disagree with you here, I just want to know what it would involve.
The only ones I cannot support, is the JD suing the NYPD as there was no charges in the Garner case, and the no more pay on suspension. Suspended without pay means that you won't do police work, since the risk of getting suspended is insanely high. Cops get suspended all the fucking time, it can be tons of reasons and not only when you've fired your weapon.

Let's turn this around;
What can the communities that hate police do to have a more trustworthy police?

[Sleazy]

Sleazy, here is the criminal code in NYC for resisting arrest:
LAW � 205.30 : NY Code - Section 205.30: Resisting arrest. A person is guilty of resisting arrest when he intentionally prevents or attempts to prevent a police officer or peace officer from effecting an authorized arrest of himself or another person. Resisting arrest is a class A misdemeanor.

Class A misdemeanor means up to one year and jail and/or a fine, not instant execution on the street. Deadly force is not justified in unarmed resisting arrest. The footage you used is for shock factor, but do those cops that got gunned down mean police should always have their guns drawn any time they are in public? Of course not.  Being an armed law enforcement officer means power, but it also means risk.

not trying to shock and not trying to suggest that resisting arrest should become a capital offense. the point was to try and put things in a better context. the conversations here are completely devoid to the fact that most cops who do these kinds of things are like the cop above and extremely scared. you could tell that cop was scared well before the fire arm came out and it's because they have seen footage like what i posted above and probably know people that this has happened too.

also, it seems ridiculous to me to expect cops to evaluate situations in through pc tinted glasses. a really odd example to make this point is that i used to wait tables for a living as i'm sure lots of people here have worked in service industry jobs. there were certain tables that you knew were going to leave bad tips. that just how it was. and that was based on socioeconomic factors, race, sexual orientation, etc... so for example, if you got a white trash table that asked for sweet tea and crackers, bad tip. never fails. if you get butch style lesbians that drink bottle beer out the bottle, bad tip. if you got a table of gay men, great tip. if you got a table of only women, separate checks, small bills and bad tip. good old boys, average tips but huge bills. there was very little variation in this and after 6 years of waiting tables all the seasoned waiters i knew would profile their tables according to these common sense of the trade ideas. when you see the that one mayor saying that in his city 80% of murders are committed by blacks, against blacks, you've got to believe that this has some impact on the police that work that. you can try and reason all you want but i guarantee you that when these cops are "being racist" by profiling what they are really doing is the same thing that waiters do when it comes to predicting their tips and i'd guess they probably find some accuracy in that profiling and they are doing this a lot of times with a mind set that you would have after seeing a video like the one above. if you worked in some white trash crystal meth mecca, then some crusty, white trash guy is probably going to put you on your guard and i'd imagine that if you worked an inner city ghetto, that thugged out looking guys would probably make you nervous too.

i'm not arguing that there aren't larger problems here that we should work on as a society or that profiling should be accepted but at the same time if your talking about cops who react out of fear then it seems unfair to dismiss the kinds of things they find scary as always being a case of the cops being racist assholes who are out to kill unarmed minorities. do you really not think that people were scared of Michael brown? look how he was acting right before he got shot and then when a cop rolls up on him he starts attacking them through the window. how scary would it be to have someone attack you when you are wearing a gun? that seems crazy as hell to me and i'm sure it's super scary for cops when it happens.



cops get paid shit and if you've ever been a victim of violent crime and rescued by cops (i was shot at in a car jacking and really glad to see the cops after) you really appreciate how amazing it is to have them there when you need them. especially if you don't carry a gun and live in the us. the fools get paid like shit, treated like shit and it seems like the least we could do is pay some respect when some maniac murders them while they are sitting in their car. i seriously can't believe the kind of attitude that you are showing in this thread. you are so against generalizing and against violence but then you are in here generalizing and using it as justification to dismiss murder.

[Sleazy]

actually what i was trying to describe above is called criminal profiling as described by a black police chief at 3:15 in the video below. i think sometimes people confuse that for racism.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/what-police-chiefs-think-after-deaths-of-mike-brown-eric-garner/

[via]

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Sleazy, here is the criminal code in NYC for resisting arrest:
LAW � 205.30 : NY Code - Section 205.30: Resisting arrest. A person is guilty of resisting arrest when he intentionally prevents or attempts to prevent a police officer or peace officer from effecting an authorized arrest of himself or another person. Resisting arrest is a class A misdemeanor.

Class A misdemeanor means up to one year and jail and/or a fine, not instant execution on the street. Deadly force is not justified in unarmed resisting arrest. The footage you used is for shock factor, but do those cops that got gunned down mean police should always have their guns drawn any time they are in public? Of course not.  Being an armed law enforcement officer means power, but it also means risk.

[close]

not trying to shock and not trying to suggest that resisting arrest should become a capital offense. the point was to try and put things in a better context. the conversations here are completely devoid to the fact that most cops who do these kinds of things are like the cop above and extremely scared. you could tell that cop was scared well before the fire arm came out and it's because they have seen footage like what i posted above and probably know people that this has happened too.

also, it seems ridiculous to me to expect cops to evaluate situations in through pc tinted glasses. a really odd example to make this point is that i used to wait tables for a living as i'm sure lots of people here have worked in service industry jobs. there were certain tables that you knew were going to leave bad tips. that just how it was. and that was based on socioeconomic factors, race, sexual orientation, etc... so for example, if you got a white trash table that asked for sweet tea and crackers, bad tip. never fails. if you get butch style lesbians that drink bottle beer out the bottle, bad tip. if you got a table of gay men, great tip. if you got a table of only women, separate checks, small bills and bad tip. good old boys, average tips but huge bills. there was very little variation in this and after 6 years of waiting tables all the seasoned waiters i knew would profile their tables according to these common sense of the trade ideas. when you see the that one mayor saying that in his city 80% of murders are committed by blacks, against blacks, you've got to believe that this has some impact on the police that work that. you can try and reason all you want but i guarantee you that when these cops are "being racist" by profiling what they are really doing is the same thing that waiters do when it comes to predicting their tips and i'd guess they probably find some accuracy in that profiling and they are doing this a lot of times with a mind set that you would have after seeing a video like the one above. if you worked in some white trash crystal meth mecca, then some crusty, white trash guy is probably going to put you on your guard and i'd imagine that if you worked an inner city ghetto, that thugged out looking guys would probably make you nervous too.

i'm not arguing that there aren't larger problems here that we should work on as a society or that profiling should be accepted but at the same time if your talking about cops who react out of fear then it seems unfair to dismiss the kinds of things they find scary as always being a case of the cops being racist assholes who are out to kill unarmed minorities. do you really not think that people were scared of Michael brown? look how he was acting right before he got shot and then when a cop rolls up on him he starts attacking them through the window. how scary would it be to have someone attack you when you are wearing a gun? that seems crazy as hell to me and i'm sure it's super scary for cops when it happens.



cops get paid shit and if you've ever been a victim of violent crime and rescued by cops (i was shot at in a car jacking and really glad to see the cops after) you really appreciate how amazing it is to have them there when you need them. especially if you don't carry a gun and live in the us. the fools get paid like shit, treated like shit and it seems like the least we could do is pay some respect when some maniac murders them while they are sitting in their car. i seriously can't believe the kind of attitude that you are showing in this thread. you are so against generalizing and against violence but then you are in here generalizing and using it as justification to dismiss murder.

A lot of these points are irrelevant to, or even help argue the point that every one else is trying to make. Cops didn't accidentally end up in these high stress, split second decision making situations... they specifically signed up for them. Since you wanted to use a restaurant metaphor, we can also use "if you can't handle the heat, get out of the kitchen".

By choosing the career path of a police officer, you are essentially claiming that you are of sound mind to use the right judgement, even in the harshest of situations. You are asking to be dubbed worthy or carrying a lethal weapon, and knowing at what point (not before) when is the appropriate time to use it. Thats the entire point of the job. If it were a simple and easy thing, there wouldn't be a need for police. Every civilian would be issued a gun and handcuffs to use when appropriate.

And there is non lethal force. Using a firearm should be the absolute last measure. Killing a person isn't something to take lightly. Yes, the decision to use lethal and non-lethal force might be a split second one. Tough shit, you signed up specifically to make that decision, and took an oath you were of sound mind to make the correct one. Again, if you have trouble with that, there are plenty of other professions in the world. If I'm under the knife, I don't want my surgeon to be bad at making stressful decisions, just because he wants to low level celebrity that is being a surgeon.

Michael Browns killer said he didn't have his taser on him because it was bulky in his utility belt, and he didn't like to carry one. So Michael Brown was shot dead instead of subdued because carrying a non lethal weapon was too uncomfortable? That is completely unaaceptable. Resisting arrest is not a crime punishable by death. But according to our court systems recently, with all of the unarmed men being killed, apparently it is.

I'm sure everyone in here is on the same page of the retaliation killings. No, unrelated cops should not be killed, and their families left broken,  because of horrendeous mistakes made by other police officers, and the court systems. But then, what is the answer? Like I said in my very first post, The Justice system has failed over and over again, police have no accountability, and civilians are being told they have to live with the fact that sometimes cops can just kill people. Retaliation violence may not be the answer, but then what is? Nothing else has worked.

[Sleazy]

i don't think that cops should't be held to a high standard, i think that the rules should be fair to them so that they don't get gunned down.

i guess this is the part where we agree to disagree. no one that i know will ever be killed by a cop because no one i know will feel that it is ok to attack someone with a gun and have the expectation that they wont get shot. it would be helpful in these kinds of conversation to at least meet in the middle that attacking an armed person is something that comes with a certain amount of danger, regardless of if they are a cop. especially if you feel that the cops are all loose cannons. michael browns blood was found inside the police car because he was shot while puching a cop sitting in a car, the cop was beat up and he had guy just walked into a store, grab some cigars and then man handled the clerk. he wasn't some guy minding his own business who was gunned down simply for being black. he was doing shit that 99% of the population would agree is the kind of shit that would get you shot by the police. at some point someone has to be held accountable for their own egregious lack of common sense and respect for other people and the law. how was the cop to know that he didn't have a gun when he's walking around with that kind of confidence and attacking someone who clearly has a gun? you are assuming that while he was getting punched through the window he would have reached for his taser and not his gun if he had it. i doubt he would have and i'm pretty sure he would have been justified in reaching for his gun. if he was wearing a camera this case would be no different because all the protesters care about is the fact that he was unarmed and black.

[via]

You seem to be missing most of what I'm getting at. Of course if the cops life is being threatened, lethal force is justified. If the attacker had a gun. That's the point. In none of these recent examples have any of the "criminals" had guns. Or a weapon of any kind. Why not non lethal force, then? How is resisting arrest a just cause for execution?

And Michael Brown was stopped for jaywalking. Not robbery. Somehow that turned into him being shot to death.

Imagine you and your friends were skatng a spot, cops show up, and you run. Is that cop justified in shooting you? Running is resisting arrest.

And you really don't think a person who asks to have aurhority over other human beings, shouldn't be held to a higher standard? That's makes no sense. What is your reasoning behind that?

[via]

It's pretty easy to figure out what happened in the Michael Brown case, but no one will talk about it honesty because it makes both sides look bad, and takes away from eithers argument of innocence.

Michael Brown and his friends were walking down the street like assholes, in the middle of the road. The cop told them to get out of the street, probably in a dickhead aggressive cop way (which is legal, but a dick move). Michael Brown talked shit to the cop (which is legal, but a dick move). The cop lost his temper and tried to aprrehend Michael Brown. Michael Brown resisted, because the cop had no just right to arrest him (jaywalking isn't an arrestable crime, and talking shit to cops is legal, albeit stupid). In the scuffle the cop was bested, and he shot Michael Brown, instead of using non lethal force (to apprehended a subject that hadn't done anything to be arrested for). If you think about it, there's no reason for Micahel Brown to just start assaulting a cop. Even harderded ex cons know better than to just punch a cop unprovoked. So there was obviously a war of words beforehand, where both people were acting like assholes. But the cop has "authority", and a gun. So he used it. Things escalated, and Michael Brown died.

While he could be condemned for beig an asshole, Michael Brown technically hadn't broken any (major) laws. So the cop was unjust in trying to arrest him. Which equates his actions to murder. If two dickheads get in a bar fight, and one of them kills the other... That's murder. Being a cop doesn't grant extra rights. That's not an opinion, that's a fact.

And yet, the extra rights were given, and that cop was aqquitted of murder, and is free to walk.

(I'm also assuming you know that the theft in the store had not been reported at the time the cop tried to stop Michael Brown, so the cop had no idea that had happened. He was stopping Michael Brown and his friends because they were walking in the middle of the street)