Refugee crisis in Europe.

[Tufty]

Well ok there is no point in this. You are clearly unable to communicate, with me at least on these subjects, but others seem to have the same problem too, so I guess its the subjects. I dont bash you because you dont agree with me, it is because you cant even understand to what I am refering to. It is like me talking about skateboarding and you make it about Ice hockey. You can carry on I wont refer to you again.

[Monty Burns]

monty i still know you're capable of reasonable thinking, and calling you a racist may have been harsh. but the emotional responses and examples of how shit could go wrong are as far fetched and fear induced as the horror scenarios the far right currently tries to implement in all our heads.

Its a emotional response cause Im pissed off . Im pissed that a young girl got murder for no real reason by a guy who she was helping .
And Ill be one of the first to say I suck at making examples , they are sometimes really bad , but they can still be used to show whats going on , but in a shitty way

good point with the racist scale tho, i'd like to revise my former statement and say you dont want to be a racist and you probably even have antiracist ideals, but you say the same shit racists say.

I am anti racist , You cant judge a human depending on their skin colour . I brought up the example when Alan called me a PEGIDA member . Im sure we can find points in the PEGIDA manifesto that both me and Alan agree on , yet we are nowhere close to being PEGIDA members


and to sweden as rape capital no2, thats just another chartlist, it might even be fake. even if it is true, that would be no reason to become paranoid about ie my gf if she'd be in sweden because rapes dont just happen all the time in broad daylight in public. sometimes crazy shit like this happens and it happens everywhere in the fucking world obviously with or without refugees so why single them out for that criteria?

Its not the first time sweden comes high on that list , and after another google search I still cant find a good stat on how many % of swedes rape and how many % of forigners rape in Sweden .  How ever if sweden has 100 rapes a day , and with refugees add 100 rapes on that stat bringing the total to 200 rapes a day . I do find it to be a horrible mistake to bring in those people


i'm not afraid that they rape around. but i'm afraid that they have to live in camps for a long time under poor conditions and slowly become a subsociety that is more antagonist to western society in general. i am also afraid of the people with the mob mentality that display open disregard for the refugees and think its rad when a boat sinks. theres suddenly a lot of assholes finding it funny to comment on a sunken boat with jokes like 'thats ok, we got plenty enough'. normal people become cruel fucks over this and this makes me paranoid.

Part of the reason they live in camps long is cause they cant find a home for them . We cant even find homes for swedish people . They need jobs but we cant find jobs for swedish people .

And while they are not making big money in these homes . They get food , medical attention , and a bunch of other things including money benefits  . Many people would look at that and envy them

of course a lot of bad shit comes to light, because refugees now get focused by police and the people, they are under watch. they are poor, no jobs, no home, of course some of them have to become criminals. they should be treated as any criminal if caught by police. right now with things like seizing their stuff when they come in like in denmark, the first signal we give them is that they are untrustworthy and not welcome. we force them to start poorer than they are and a lot of politicians now want them to be punished harder than regular citizens, like we did under hitler with jewish people back before WWII. that's a bigger step backwards on the civilatory scale for europe already imo than the refugees could ever have produced on their own efforts to destroy us culturally or whatever.

If all you need to do is to shine a light on something , then it was there all along . Just cause media was ignoring crimes made by refugees before , doesnt mean those crimes were not happening .

Refugee criminals do get treated differently . The 4 refugees who raped the girl in stockholm all got lower sentances cause they were not adults . Yet we dont have any positiv ID or birth certificate on any of them . Their lawyers claim they are under age . Which lowers their sentences with years

The guy who assulted the mother who had her children with her . Nobody knows really who he is or his age . He had over 4 identitys in 3 countries

The guy who is on trail now for the murder also claims he is 15 , and claims to be somebody . But we have no possitiv ID or birth certificate

Swedish people on trail have positive IDs , Birth certificates and a age


And if I was running for my life , and somebody told me . Hey we will give you a warm house , free food , free healthcare , you will be able to go to school , learn danish , get a job , and while this is going on we will also give you money benefits

But we need to take your jewellery to help pay for it ,   I would accept it in a heart beat


the question is if you give in and get swept away in the populist wave. i know people like you that i can respect for their articulate opinions, even when i disagree with them, but i see some of them lose their shit right now and i am wondering why that is the case. imo a lot of the things you assume are rather worst case scenarios and the problem is if a lot of people think the worst is about to happen, then tension rises and with it violent conflict because people overreact on all sides.


I have no problem with anybody here besides Tufty and Alan . Tufty has called me a Idiot , fascist , Nazi , and Im sure some things worse .
And Alan has called me racist , xenophobe , fascist

Besides calling Tufty some names , I haven't insulted anybody in this thread . I wanted a polite calm discussion .

One of my best friends is Palestinian , He has very Left / feminist views . So when we talk politics we argue about everything and dont
really see eye to eye on 99% of the topics . But we have afew beers about it and talk . And then we talk about other stuff and have
a good time

I dont understand people like Alan and Tufty who have to lash out with wild accusations, insults  and make up things .

[excitableboy]

I don't think you are racist, whatever you take that to mean, but you are pretty far to the right on this subject. You are grossly overplaying that card about Sweden being unable to house and feed their own. It isn't nearly as dire as you present it. This isn't even up for debate, so please don't respond with photo's of Swedes at a soup kitchen.

Sweden is loaded. You're beef might be with the growing income gap in your country, which in relation to other EU countries actually is remarkably low. You say people can't find work but unemployment is on the rise everywhere, though again remarkably low in Sweden by comparison. People are trying to sketch you a bigger picture and you post some photo of a bum in Stockholm as a reply. That's not to say Sweden has no poor people.

And you're right, that is appalling, for your country to have poor people. Because again, you are fucking loaded. And it's well known what the poor communities in Sweden are made up of. Immigrants. They are in large part the unemployed and the poorly housed people of your country. Is that because they're fundamentally different in nature, or does it have to do with the surroundings in which they grew up? The answer to this question will determine whether you are indeed a racist.

As for fascist. I don't think so either. You are pretty exclusive and nationalistic, you don't respond to facts and also make downright nonsensical claims which populists use as well. You said for example: 'I am against mass immigration'. This sentence holds little, if any, meaning. It's like protesting the wind. Mass immigration doesn't care what you think about it. It has always happened throughout history and will continue to do so. If you feel Sweden should turn them away, don't claim to be against mass immigration. Call it how it is, a kneejerk reaction to protect your own nation and a failure to deal with a huge humanitarian problem that is happening even if you turn your back to it.
  
Orwell wrote that the word 'fascism' is almost entirely meaningless, and has come to be nearly synonymous with 'bully'. I thought that was amusing, because you stated that you agree with taking refugees' belongings to pay for their imposition, which I called bullying before. Not so, because, you empathized, you would 'gladly do it' if you were a true refugee. But that money will not pay for shit. On average, the allowance they get monthly from our government is twice the amount they have with them. So is then the purpose to prove that they are happy to hand it over, thus cementing their status as a true refugee? Perhaps it will deter some fake refugees from coming over here, but let's not kid ourselves: it's a pointless shakedown bordering on the fascistoid.

I'd say a fascist purposefully manipulates his arguments more, to an entirely self-serving end. You seem genuinely clueless.

But I'm actually not really bothered whether you are a fascist or a racist. I'm bothered to see how quickly the European governments and people are turning on this problem and on these people. We are giving up on this thing before we have even begun to tackle it.

[Alan]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35437873

Five times more attacks were carried out on migrant hostels in Germany last year than in 2014, German police say.

The total for 2015 was 1,005, compared with 199 in 2014, the police report said. Far-right activists are suspected in 90% of the cases.

@Monty

Is this really the situation ? they will die ? If Sweden doesnt take them they die ? .

You are against mass immigration to Europe, not just Sweden, right? Well, what do you think will happen to those people if they are turned back? Are their chances of survival better in Europe or Syria and refugee camps in the ME? You say that you're not doing anything against the refugees, yet you probably wouldn't do anything if they were all sent back. You're one of those people who thinks that they are innocent unless they actually pull the trigger.

Like many others in this thread have noticed, you do spout racist bs (even if some think you're not actually racist, which is illogical).
Why do you think that donating to Doctors Without Borders and living abroad means that your beliefs are automatically non-racist or non-xenophobic?

While living abroad, have you ever been a refugee? No you haven't. As a Nordic chef, I doubt that you have ever experienced anything even remotely similar to what the refugees are experiencing now in Europe. Fuck, I know for a fact that you haven't, judging by your posts elsewhere. The level of ignorance from a worldly traveler like yourself is astounding.

Monash is a top Australian university. I linked that because it gives a more detailed definition of racism, something I though might help you. Dictionary definitions aren't very useful when discussing ideas.

[Monty Burns]

You are against mass immigration to Europe, not just Sweden, right? Well, what do you think will happen to those people if they are turned back? Are their chances of survival better in Europe or Syria and refugee camps in the ME? You say that you're not doing anything against the refugees, yet you probably wouldn't do anything if they were all sent back.

Yes Im against mass immigration . Im for skilled worker / worker immigration .

What will happen to them ? The reason for them being sent back are that they dont meet the requirements of refugee status . For example people who want to come to europe and sweden to get benifits and to move from a country not doing well to a country that is doing well.

If we would allow all the people who live in countries that are not as good as europe , to move to euope . How many billions would come ?
I thought the point of being refugee and benifiting of being refugee is that you are fleeing war and the threat of death . That if you stay in your country you will die , thats why you left

You're one of those people who thinks that they are innocent unless they actually pull the trigger.

Then we are all guilty and it doesnt matter .


Like many others in this thread have noticed, you do spout racist bs (even if some think you're not actually racist, which is illogical).
Why do you think that donating to Doctors Without Borders and living abroad means that your beliefs are automatically non-racist or non-xenophobic?

Donating to Doctors Without Borders and paying tax in sweden is a example of me doing more for the refugees then you alan and tufty .
Tufty has said often that donations to organisations is worthless . I dont know if you donate ?

But Swedens tax is about 30% , Sweden has also taken in most refugees ( besides germany ) . I pay for that . Its kinda funny that
There might be Nazis in Sweden that pay 30% in tax or more if they are rich , That tax money then goes to help the refugees
and Does alot more for refugees then many of the people complaining about the situation and the right wings

While living abroad, have you ever been a refugee? No you haven't. As a Nordic chef, I doubt that you have ever experienced anything even remotely similar to what the refugees are experiencing now in Europe. Fuck, I know for a fact that you haven't, judging by your posts elsewhere. The level of ignorance from a worldly traveler like yourself is astounding.

Me having been a minority , living in many continents and traveling alot was a response to I belive both you and tufty saying Im scared of change , That Im a isolated swede , who knows nothing of the world and hasnt seen anything of the world


Monash is a top Australian university. I linked that because it gives a more detailed definition of racism, something I though might help you. Dictionary definitions aren't very useful when discussing ideas.

Well words mean something , we have dictionary definitions to understand what the word means . Somebodys ideas might be worth to discuss , but that doesnt change the meaning of the word

If you ask somebody what racism means id guess that 99 times out of a 100 people would give the definition from the dictionary .

[Monty Burns]

Today in refugee news

"Refugees"  lying about their age to get special treatment

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3422000/Just-old-think-migrant-children-Alarming-pictures-shed-light-growing-scandal-amid-asylum-crisis.html

Two migrants placed in a German children's home after claiming to be 15 and 17 are arrested for 'sexually assaulting 12-year-old girl and threatening to kill witness aged SIX'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3422509/Two-migrants-places-German-children-s-home-claiming-15-17-arrested-sexually-assaulting-12-year-old-girl-threatening-kill-witness-aged-SIX.html


Some news from sweden

Police Secret Code Hides Thousands of Crimes

R 291 is the police code for crime that is commited at refugee centres / crimes by refugee  . The code which has been
kept a secret has hidden thousands of crimes from Murders , Arson , Bomb threats , Rapes and assults

SvD reports over 5000 crimes in 2015 that went under the Code R 291 . Nationella operativa avdelning is the department of the Swedish police who decided these crimes should be kept away from media and also decided to use the R 291 code for all the refugee related crimes

http://www.expressen.se/nyheter/polisens-hemliga-kod-doljer-tusentals-brott/

[Alan]

What will happen to them ? The reason for them being sent back are that they dont meet the requirements of refugee status . For example people who want to come to europe and sweden to get benifits and to move from a country not doing well to a country that is doing well.

Who says that they don't meet requirements? The vast majority of the refugees in Europe are in fact fleeing war. And you want to send them back because they're not qualified. Hence my question, what will happen to them after they're sent back to Syria or Iraq?

Donating to Doctors Without Borders and paying tax in sweden is a example of me doing more for the refugees then you alan and tufty .

But you've used the example before to prove that you're not racist or xenophobic. So to repeat my question: Why do you think that donating to Doctors Without Borders and living abroad means that your beliefs are automatically non-racist or non-xenophobic?

Well words mean something , we have dictionary definitions to understand what the word means . Somebodys ideas might be worth to discuss , but that doesnt change the meaning of the word

Ok, I know that you're "not the smartest guy", so I will try and give you a good analogy.

This is the dictionary definition of a moussaka: "a Middle Eastern dish of ground meat (as lamb or beef) and sliced eggplant often topped with a seasoned sauce."

Could you make it without further instructions? No. This is even truer when discussing complex ideas such as race.

[Alan]

Today in refugee news:

http://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2016/jan/29/hidden-child-labour-syrian-refugees-turkey-supplying-europe-fast-fashion

"Turkey�s giant textile industry is a major supplier to Europe but remains largely unregulated, an estimated 60% of the total workforce is unregistered, meaning they work informally, usually without a contract or any employment benefits. Syrian refugees make up a particularly vulnerable section of the workforce. Visiting Syrian workers in textile workshops in three Turkish cities � Istanbul, Mersin and Adana � I encountered child labour, poor working conditions and low pay."


It's interesting how one of the biggest Swedish companies, H&M, profits directly from the war in Syria, while at the same time paying a very low corporate tax (way lower than personal tax), thus effectively taking away from the social state, and by extension, the refugees.

[excitableboy]

Hey Monty, am I on your ignore list or something?

Why do you keep dodging the questions people ask you? You are against mass immigration but for helping refugees, you say once again. But left and right people are pointing out to you that this is nonsense. You can send away the economic refugees and all the people from the Balkan who pose as Syrian refugees. Nobody has disagreed with that policy but you keep bringing it up as if it is relevant. Of course our government will send those people back. But then you still have mass immigration. You see? If you are against mass immigration, the practical implication is that you are for sending all the real refugees back as well.

[Monty Burns]

Hey Monty, am I on your ignore list or something?

Nah man , Im trying to answer everybody and every question . But its like 4 people asking questions and Im trying to keep it organized

[excitableboy]

Expand Quote

Hey Monty, am I on your ignore list or something?

[close]

Nah man , Im trying to answer everybody and every question . But its like 4 people asking questions and Im trying to keep it organized

Is that really your best effort? You just dodged the question, again. I have to assume you are trolling at this point.

[Monty Burns]

Right for excitableboy

Is that really your best effort? You just dodged the question, again. I have to assume you are trolling at this point.

Can I have a moment to think about the answer ? or a moment to freakin sit down and answer your questions ?
Its not like I can sit here all day and debate this on slap . You want me to file a scheduled to you so you know when Im online and
can write replys without being accused of dodging questions ?

Why do you keep dodging the questions people ask you

Maybe I missed it ? why is everybody ells allowed to miss questions and dodge questions except me ?

Alan has for example dodge my question on what country he is from 4 times now . And many others just ignore my replies and questions

People take huge parts of my posts and reply to 3 out of my 10 points sometimes

But left and right people are pointing out to you that this is nonsense. You can send away the economic refugees and all the people from the Balkan who pose as Syrian refugees. Nobody has disagreed with that policy

Both Alan and Tufty has dissagreed with this policy . And if I looked closer I can find atleast 1 more . Alan just on this page has said that

Who says that they don't meet requirements? The vast majority of the refugees in Europe are in fact fleeing war

this was into the reply that sweden was sending home 80 k refugees cause they dont meet the requirements of refugee status

heres one more from Alan

You say that you're not doing anything against the refugees, yet you probably wouldn't do anything if they were all sent back. You're one of those people who thinks that they are innocent unless they actually pull the trigger.

Why does Alan get a free pass from you excitableboy ? 

But then you still have mass immigration. You see? If you are against mass immigration, the practical implication is that you are for sending all the real refugees back as well.

What is the number of MASS ?

I wouldnt say Im against all refugees coming here , But theres a difference between 5k 10k  and then 200k we have taken in. Lets say during this crisis Sweden only took in 5k Refugees . Lets say only women and children . Or only family . And make sure these are people at risk of being systematic killed . for their race or religion

Kinda like the jews during WW2 .   I would be ok with that , Europe shares the amount of REAL refugees and we try to integrate them into The countries

example

If there was a genocide against Jewish people in Syria right now and 5k of them wanted to come to Sweden . I would be ok with that

[Monty Burns]

And for alan


Who says that they don't meet requirements? The vast majority of the refugees in Europe are in fact fleeing war. And you want to send them back because they're not qualified. Hence my question, what will happen to them after they're sent back to Syria or Iraq?

The Swedish goverment . And any other goverment that is sending these " refugees " home .


But you've used the example before to prove that you're not racist or xenophobic. So to repeat my question: Why do you think that donating to Doctors Without Borders and living abroad means that your beliefs are automatically non-racist or non-xenophobic?

Why would a racist move to a country where he is a minority ? for example   I lived in Asia . Why would I move to Asia and live with asians if I was a racist and hated Asians ?

Why would I support Doctors Without Borders who do alot of work in Syria , Afghanistan , Iraq if I hated these people ?  its not like Doctors without borders are a White people organisation that only helps Swedes


Ok, I know that you're "not the smartest guy", so I will try and give you a good analogy.
This is the dictionary definition of a moussaka: "a Middle Eastern dish of ground meat (as lamb or beef) and sliced eggplant often topped with a seasoned sauce."
Could you make it without further instructions? No. This is even truer when discussing complex ideas such as race.

Yes I could make it . Im tons of other people can make it too .  The meat needs to be cooked , The eggplants too , and a sauce .
Put it all together on a plate and its one type of Moussaka . A middle eastern chef might say its not a Traditional Moussaka but in a way its still the same dish

A guy at a lunch restaurant makes one type of moussaka , And a guy at a fine dining moussaka would make it alot diffrent . But in a way its the same .

Food is more of a art form . If Picasso and Da vinci were told to paint a picture of a girl they would look vastly diffrent . In the end its still a picture of a girl

So we take moussaka under the word Food , and the girl under the word Painting

Food , Racism , Painting . If you look that up in a dictionary you would understand what it is . If some guy wants to break down what Painting can be interpreted as , and smaller details  thats up to him . But Racism is about race

[Alan]

You can't compare economic immigrant from the Balkans to the ones from Somalia or similar countries. I don't oppose the deportation of economic immigrants from the Balkans, but you do oppose mass immigration of refugees from war torn regions.

And people probably ignore you because they don't see a point in repeatedly replying to the posts of a person who only wants to hear what they want to hear and keeps posting only links about the negative sides of the refugee crisis, as if that's the only side there is, without even a gram of critical thought.

And where I'm from isn't important, because unlike you, I'm not arguing from a narrow-minded nationalistic point of view. But I have mentioned where I'm from a few times on this forum, so if it bothers you that much, please feel free to use the search function.

[Monty Burns]

You can't compare economic immigrant from the Balkans to the ones from Somalia or similar countries. I don't oppose the deportation of economic immigrants from the Balkans, but you do oppose mass immigration of refugees from war torn regions.

Why do you assume that the 80k getting deported are from Syria ? how do you know what numbers are from Morocco or Tunisia ? Syria ?
You ask who makes the judgement to send them back ?  well thats the immigration offices on Sweden . They look into the people and decide what their situation is


And people probably ignore you because they don't see a point in repeatedly replying to the posts of a person who only wants to hear what they want to hear and keeps posting only links about the negative sides of the refugee crisis, as if that's the only side there is, without even a gram of critical thought.

What kind of way is that to debate ? ignore the questions of somebody who has a different opinion ? and then accuse that person of not answering your questions ?

And if I only want to hear what I want to hear then I doubt I would be in this thread . Ive been insulted a number of times and I diffidently have the minority of support here


And where I'm from isn't important, because unlike you, I'm not arguing from a narrow-minded nationalistic point of view. But I have mentioned where I'm from a few times on this forum, so if it bothers you that much, please feel free to use the search function.

Thats another great way to debate . Ignore the question and make the person search for the answer

Your country of origin is important . Maybe you are a Syrian currently in a refugee camp in Sweden . That has a huge importance in this discussion as I doubt you would have a objective view on this


It's interesting how one of the biggest Swedish companies, H&M, profits directly from the war in Syria, while at the same time paying a very low corporate tax (way lower than personal tax), thus effectively taking away from the social state, and by extension, the refugees.

Fuck H&M , They are exploiting humans . They should be fined or higher ups fined or Jailed .  On the other hand if Syrians were not working there somebody ells would be , and then syrians would be fucked .  Its Turkeys fult for allowing this so they need to change the laws and the factory should be shut down

But then where are the syrians gonna get money for food or housing ? I dont think Turkey is giving this to them



And for  excitableboy , Tufty on this page just said we should take economical refugees , and he has said so befor . So your argument about nobody saying it is abit not true

And you see alans reply to why people dont answer my questions .  Why give them and him a pass on it ? while calling me out ?

[Tufty]

@Alan

 If you think than an economic immigrant from balkans is less needy than a Syrian refugee just because there are no bombs killing them you are disillusioned. War is just capitalist economy with other means. Which means that not only wars create victims, but economic antagonisms also. I know that the international legislation (that is not followed by EU) covers only refugees, but I dont think that is right.  

 As brecht said:  "There are many ways to kill a man. You can stab him, you can take his bread off the mouth, you can deprive him of health care, you can place him in unsuitable accommodation, you can drive him to suicide, you can send him to war. Only a few of them are illegal"

PS I didnt want to admit it but after so many pages I realised that Monty is a person. I think we should ignore him.

[Alan]

The Swedish goverment . And any other goverment that is sending these " refugees " home .

Yeah, but you want to send the real refugees home too, no? That's been your argument all along.

Why would a racist move to a country where he is a minority ? for example   I lived in Asia . Why would I move to Asia and live with asians if I was a racist and hated Asians ?

Why would I support Doctors Without Borders who do alot of work in Syria , Afghanistan , Iraq if I hated these people ?  its not like Doctors without borders are a White people organisation that only helps Swedes

You can be racist towards some groups and not towards the other. But that's beside the point. Plenty of racists travel for work or pleasure to other countries, yet they wouldn't want those people living in their country.

I don't know why you support DWB. To clear your conscience?

Yes I could make it . Im tons of other people can make it too .  The meat needs to be cooked , The eggplants too , and a sauce .
Put it all together on a plate and its one type of Moussaka . A middle eastern chef might say its not a Traditional Moussaka but in a way its still the same dish

Going from that definition, how do you know if you need to cook it or bake it? For how long? What type of sauce would you use? Which spices? You seriously don't understand the parallel I am drawing?

[excitableboy]

gibberish

You are missing the point. Even if you send the fake refugees back, there still will be mass imigration. Mass means a lot, difficult to deal with, in this context. You are essentially saying you are against difficulty. You have this problem unless you deport them all, refugee or not. And even then, this will only be a solution for Sweden. Which, I feel i should repeat, is one of the richest places in the world.

Why would I go after Alan when he isn't replying to your questions? I have nothing to do with that. And I did give you time to reply, but you have ignored my posts consistently. This time you did reply, but you didn't answer. I get the impression you do want real refugees to be helped, but you aren't ready to accept the costs and risks of it. You can't have it both ways. If you need more time to think about it, believe me, I wholeheartedly encourage you to do so.

[Alan]

@Alan

 If you think than an economic immigrant from balkans is less needy than a Syrian refugee just because there are no bombs killing them you are disillusioned. War is just capitalist economy with other means. Which means that not only wars create victims, but economic antagonisms also. I know that the international legislation (that is not followed by EU) covers only refugees, but I dont think that is right. �

 As brecht said: �"There are many ways to kill a man. You can stab him, you can take his bread off the mouth, you can deprive him of health care, you can place him in unsuitable accommodation, you can drive him to suicide, you can send him to war. Only a few of them are illegal"

PS I didnt want to admit it but after so many pages I realised that Monty is a person. I think we should ignore him.

I know that people fleeing the Balkans are needy, but I can't see how they are in the same position as the economic migrants from the global south.

Monty is, by his own admission, a high school drop out and not very bright, and he can't seem to get punctuation right, but I wouldn't go as far as to call him a person.

[Alan]

And if I only want to hear what I want to hear then I doubt I would be in this thread . Ive been insulted a number of times and I diffidently have the minority of support here

You're the only person who knows the answer to that question...

Thats another great way to debate . Ignore the question and make the person search for the answer
 

I didn't ignore it. I addressed it. I told you what you can do if you're not happy with the answer.

Your country of origin is important . Maybe you are a Syrian currently in a refugee camp in Sweden . That has a huge importance in this discussion as I doubt you would have a objective view on this

How likely is that? And why is objectivity a concern for you? Do you consider yourself objective, being Swedish and posting only negative links about the refugees in Sweden? Is that objective?

But then where are the syrians gonna get money for food or housing ? I dont think Turkey is giving this to them

Well, H&M could force the Turks to improve the working conditions and increase pay, but then the Swedes probably wouldn't use their services, would they? Ah, capitalism...

[Monty Burns]

So for alan

Yeah, but you want to send the real refugees home too, no? That's been your argument all along.

Was it ? maybe I wrote wrong , or maybe you guys changed my mind . I would say we should take people facing genocide , like the jews during WW2 . Women and children prioritized . Far less then we are taking now , and more spread out all over europe . With extensive background checks

Theres a huge diffrence between taking in 200k people and then having to send home 100k cause they are not real refugees . And taking in maybe 5k that are real refugees . You just wasted a shit load of money that could have helped the real people

Also Im more for aid programs and military intervention in these countries . Helping the people with food , medical aid , and help them stay in the country .

I don't know why you support DWB. To clear your conscience ?

Maybe Im a nice guy who belives in helping the good guys ?


Going from that definition, how do you know if you need to cook it or bake it? For how long? What type of sauce would you use? Which spices? You seriously don't understand the parallel I am drawing?

If you exchange the beef for pork , it will still be a moussaka , just a pork moussaka . If you take away the meat you can make it a veggo moussaka . Make the sauce with red wine , Red wine sauce moussaka

At many restaurants when they cook beef / steaks they do it on a pan or in a oven . At a fine dining place I worked we used to take the meat raw , seal it in a vaccum bag and cook it low temp in water , then cook it in a pan .

Both are cooking it yes ?  if you ask people if the meat is cooked or not . Would they say no ?


he can't seem to get punctuation right,

Im not too concerned with my punctuation on SLAP , I sometimes dont bother fixing spelling mistakes either

Well, H&M could force the Turks to improve the working conditions and increase pay, but then the Swedes probably wouldn't use their services, would they? Ah, capitalism...

You are right , or move the factories to Sweden . Or they could just make sure they get correct wages and health care . Or syrians can go on strike until they get it

You are correct . Im doing my part , Im not buyin anything from H&M  and if there was a vote I would vote to fix this and punish H& M



For  excitableboy

gibberish

Cmon dude , wtf  you make the point nobody is saying we should take economical refugees , and on the same page somebody does it . And people have done it before

And when I call you on it you say gibberish ?  wtf man

You are missing the point. Even if you send the fake refugees back, there still will be mass imigration. Mass means a lot, difficult to deal with, in this context. You are essentially saying you are against difficulty. You have this problem unless you deport them all, refugee or not. And even then, this will only be a solution for Sweden. Which, I feel i should repeat, is one of the richest places in the world.

Im not against deportation of all . But I dont want to accept them all either

The girl who got murderd from that somali guy was named Alexandra Mezher her parents were from Libanon . She was swedish . She was born in sweden , had a swedish passport . went to swedish school and spoke swedish . She was Swedish .

Instead of taking in all these refugees I support military aid from NATO , USA , Russia . and anybody ells that wants to help out . Humanitary programs to help send food and medical aid to Syria

I think this would be a cheaper (yet expensive ) solution to this

Why would I go after Alan when he isn't replying to your questions? I have nothing to do with that

Ok you have a point , I still think its abit bullshit to call me out on it when others who you agree on do it all the time

and I did give you time to reply, but you have ignored my posts consistently.

I guess I missed it , I do apologize .  If I do it in the future just let me know in a friendly way and address it again

[excitableboy]

For  excitableboy

gibberish

Cmon dude , wtf  you make the point nobody is saying we should take economical refugees , and on the same page somebody does it . And people have done it before

And when I call you on it you say gibberish ?  wtf man

I edited that in there just to get your attention. Glad it worked. If I really thought you are a person I wouldn't go on debating with you. And I think only Tufty is saying that about economic victims, for which he has good reasons. I assume Tufty considers almost anybody in the world, from the Balkan down at least, to be economic victims. But to put them on a par with bombed people is too far for me as well, and in this thread will only confuse the matter in my opinion.

You are missing the point. Even if you send the fake refugees back, there still will be mass imigration. Mass means a lot, difficult to deal with, in this context. You are essentially saying you are against difficulty. You have this problem unless you deport them all, refugee or not. And even then, this will only be a solution for Sweden. Which, I feel i should repeat, is one of the richest places in the world.

Im not against deportation of all . But I dont want to accept them all either

The girl who got murderd from that somali guy was named Alexandra Mezher her parents were from Libanon . She was swedish . She was born in sweden , had a swedish passport . went to swedish school and spoke swedish . She was Swedish .

Instead of taking in all these refugees I support military aid from NATO , USA , Russia . and anybody ells that wants to help out . Humanitary programs to help send food and medical aid to Syria

Well there is the crucial point. You want some, because you feel it's the right thing to do, but not all, because it might not be fair to Swedes. This is a valid opinion, if you are willing to ignore the vast wealth of Swedes that is. You asked before how many refugees is too many. It's up to you to answer that because for me, that number is so much higher than what is coming in, it isn't even relevant. Whereas you feel we/Sweden are approaching that tipping point very quickly. So you are right to ask yourself this question, but then hesitate to answer, I guess because it forces you to choose between the real refugees and ourselves/Sweden.

I've said this before, bombing Syria will not, in the short term at least, change the refugee crisis that we are discussing in this thread. You continue to ignore this reality.

Ok you have a point , I still think its abit bullshit to call me out on it when others who you agree on do it all the time

When others do that I also let it slide, like I did with you. After the third time I might say something about it, because I will feel ignored or trolled. I understand you feel like a minority in this thread, perhaps a bit like you're being bullied. (Glad you're not muslim or we would've had to dress the emoji's in niqabs, am I right.) But seriously I'm really not singling you out here. I've only really talked directly to you in the last pages of this thread.

and I did give you time to reply, but you have ignored my posts consistently.

I guess I missed it , I do apologize .  If I do it in the future just let me know in a friendly way and address it again

Ok, I will take into account your precious soul from now on 

[Monty Burns]

For  excitableboy

Well there is the crucial point. You want some, because you feel it's the right thing to do, but not all, because it might not be fair to Swedes. This is a valid opinion, if you are willing to ignore the vast wealth of Swedes that is. You asked before how many refugees is too many. It's up to you to answer that because for me, that number is so much higher than what is coming in, it isn't even relevant. Whereas you feel we/Sweden are approaching that tipping point very quickly. So you are right to ask yourself this question, but then hesitate to answer, I guess because it forces you to choose between the real refugees and ourselves/Sweden.

I cant place a exact number on how many we should take . I would have to look at the numbers super close and talk to people more knowledgeable. For my view point what I see now is 200k coming in , 80k something are gonna get kicked out cause they shouldnt have been there to start with

Its costing alot of money , there huge integration problems with people who have been weeks / months in the country and they are already committing crimes . People claiming they are running for their lives , yet complaining about their housing and food

I grew up in a city called Malmo , not looking at any stats but I think its the city in Sweden with most foreigners / foreign born swedes and refugees , immigrants . Growing up we always had mixed classes , lots of people from different countries , Lots of Chileans , lots of Balkans and Iranians / Iraq . Its natural in Malmo


I've said this before, bombing Syria will not, in the short term at least, change the refugee crisis that we are discussing in this thread. You continue to ignore this reality.

Back in 93 I think , US Special Forces and Nato went into Somalia to try to feed and clean it up abit . As far as I know Somalia has no oil or any other real thing the west needs ?

Anyways there were afew incidents and the US pulled out . Today Somalia is not a good country , but when was somalia a good country ? and for how long has somalia been shitty country ? 30 years ? more ? war lords rule that country

Why should Sweden take Somali people into Sweden ? cause Somalia cant fix itself ? why should the EU ?

Syria has oil and I guess some other things . USA and Russia are playing games and ISIS is going crazy . A far better solution would be to go in and kill ISIS . USA , Russia , Nato and anybody ells who wants to join in . Tanks , boats , Troops on ground everything .

Tell everybody in Syria put down your guns or you will get killed ,  put up a election and when its done leave and send back all the refugees

end the war , set up rebuilding projects with companies from all over the world . If people want oil , let them buy it from the new government


because I will feel ignored or trolled. I understand you feel like a minority in this thread, perhaps a bit like you're being bullied.

Its fine , I am the minority in this thread , there are people who agree with me but most of them think its better to keep quiet , They are afraid of being labelled racist , fascist and Nazi . Its a popular tactic from the left / liberals

Kinda like when Ricky gerveis made a joke about catlyn Jenner killing somebody in a car crash . People attacked him for being transphobic
the joke has nothing to do with transsexuals

If you are negative vs any cause they will label you


Ok, I will take into account your precious soul from now on 

Im a tiny butterfly , treat me gently




I got to ask all you guys . If war broke out in your country . Would you stay and fight or would you become a refugee ? . Would you leave behind your mother , wife , kids and go to some other country and hope that IF you get to stay , IF you get a job , IF you get a house and IF you get money you will send for them ?

Heres another of Montys horrible examples

Sweden is a pretty stable country , But I guess if the Swedish king made a grasp for power and decided that all jews in sweden must be killed , or a genocide against blue eyed people . Splitting the police and military in 2 factions . A civil war in Sweden

I would rather stay and fight

[excitableboy]

For  excitableboy

Well there is the crucial point. You want some, because you feel it's the right thing to do, but not all, because it might not be fair to Swedes. This is a valid opinion, if you are willing to ignore the vast wealth of Swedes that is. You asked before how many refugees is too many. It's up to you to answer that because for me, that number is so much higher than what is coming in, it isn't even relevant. Whereas you feel we/Sweden are approaching that tipping point very quickly. So you are right to ask yourself this question, but then hesitate to answer, I guess because it forces you to choose between the real refugees and ourselves/Sweden.

I cant place a exact number on how many we should take . I would have to look at the numbers super close and talk to people more knowledgeable. For my view point what I see now is 200k coming in , 80k something are gonna get kicked out cause they shouldnt have been there to start with

Its costing alot of money , there huge integration problems with people who have been weeks / months in the country and they are already committing crimes . People claiming they are running for their lives , yet complaining about their housing and food

I grew up in a city called Malmo , not looking at any stats but I think its the city in Sweden with most foreigners / foreign born swedes and refugees , immigrants . Growing up we always had mixed classes , lots of people from different countries , Lots of Chileans , lots of Balkans and Iranians / Iraq . Its natural in Malmo


I've said this before, bombing Syria will not, in the short term at least, change the refugee crisis that we are discussing in this thread. You continue to ignore this reality.

Back in 93 I think , US Special Forces and Nato went into Somalia to try to feed and clean it up abit . As far as I know Somalia has no oil or any other real thing the west needs ?

Anyways there were afew incidents and the US pulled out . Today Somalia is not a good country , but when was somalia a good country ? and for how long has somalia been shitty country ? 30 years ? more ? war lords rule that country

Why should Sweden take Somali people into Sweden ? cause Somalia cant fix itself ? why should the EU ?

Syria has oil and I guess some other things . USA and Russia are playing games and ISIS is going crazy . A far better solution would be to go in and kill ISIS . USA , Russia , Nato and anybody ells who wants to join in . Tanks , boats , Troops on ground everything .

Tell everybody in Syria put down your guns or you will get killed ,  put up a election and when its done leave and send back all the refugees

end the war , set up rebuilding projects with companies from all over the world . If people want oil , let them buy it from the new government


because I will feel ignored or trolled. I understand you feel like a minority in this thread, perhaps a bit like you're being bullied.

Its fine , I am the minority in this thread , there are people who agree with me but most of them think its better to keep quiet , They are afraid of being labelled racist , fascist and Nazi . Its a popular tactic from the left / liberals

Kinda like when Ricky gerveis made a joke about catlyn Jenner killing somebody in a car crash . People attacked him for being transphobic
the joke has nothing to do with transsexuals

If you are negative vs any cause they will label you


Ok, I will take into account your precious soul from now on 

Im a tiny butterfly , treat me gently




I got to ask all you guys . If war broke out in your country . Would you stay and fight or would you become a refugee ? . Would you leave behind your mother , wife , kids and go to some other country and hope that IF you get to stay , IF you get a job , IF you get a house and IF you get money you will send for them ?

Heres another of Montys horrible examples

Sweden is a pretty stable country , But I guess if the Swedish king made a grasp for power and decided that all jews in sweden must be killed , or a genocide against blue eyed people . Splitting the police and military in 2 factions . A civil war in Sweden

I would rather stay and fight

I wouldn't put any number on it I think. That's a pretty radical view I suppose and if Europe were actually overrun with refugees, economic or terrified, who knows what I'd do. Sounds pretty apocalyptic to me, and about as outlandish as your imaginary civil war. While you understand that this is something you imagined, you are fully buying into this refugee meltdown bullshit. We make sure our pennies are safe by preventing those with poor people passports to fly here. The millions that have managed to make it here these past years have only just started to make a little dent in our budgets. I say spend more, being cheap with immigrants hasn't worked too well in the past. It's also a chance to do those good things the West always brags about to the Third World.

I agree with you when you sketch the scenario of our combined armies going over there and making things better, really better this time. But those missions somehow always go awry don't they. I don't pretend to have any idea about going over there to fix things, but we had success with that close to never.

Remember when the world put together over ten billion dollars to help Haiti? The general response to this problem couldn't be more different. The perception seems to be that refugees aren't really victims in the way that Haitians were. I guess with the Haitians you could be sure they had no part in any of that bad weather. Although they are into voodoo a bunch, we must have overlooked that. At least the rapists were easily spotted due to their houses having collapsed. And in any case they had the sense not to swim over here. If they won't run our already rebuilt sweatshop in Haiti, who will?

[Monty Burns]

I wouldn't put any number on it I think. That's a pretty radical view I suppose and if Europe were actually overrun with refugees, economic or terrified, who knows what I'd do. Sounds pretty apocalyptic to me, and about as outlandish as your imaginary civil war. While you understand that this is something you imagined, you are fully buying into this refugee meltdown bullshit

Well the police cheif said they need about 3000-4000 new police officers to deal with this refugee situations , patroling centres , handling deportations , keeping people safe . How long does it to become a police officer ? 2 or 4 years ?  and they are needed now .

Police say they are over worked , they dont want to pull over time , people are calling in sick and so on . And who really wants to be a police officer ? where are we going to get 4000 new police officers ?

Sweden took in about 3x as much refugees then it can handle . There was a article written today about how Syrians at refugee centres are happy the boarder is closed cause they dont think Sweden can handle it .

http://www.expressen.se/kronikorer/britta-svensson/att-polisen-maste-rycka-ut-ar-inte-konstigt/

Ill post some translations later of it . But the woman interview made the same examples as I usualy do but instead of a boat she said

If your house only rooms 10 people , and you can only take  care of 10 people . Then you cant take in more then 10 people

The issue is not that sweden is a poor country , The issue is we are not equipped to take care of this amount of refugees . We dont have homes for these people , we dont even have refugee information centres to file the people that came in . or comes in

It takes time to hire the right people , build the homes , build the centres

Sweden prob could have handled this , if you told us 5 or 10 years ago 200k was gonna come here , be ready

I say spend more, being cheap with immigrants hasn't worked too well in the past. It's also a chance to do those good things the West always brags about to the Third World.

Ill agree with this , everybody that comes here should be treated amazing . Help with getting a home , help with a job , help with swedish , medical care and so on . But thats not reality

But this works both ways , do these people want to integrate ? and why are they here ?

I agree with you when you sketch the scenario of our combined armies going over there and making things better, really better this time. But those missions somehow always go awry don't they. I don't pretend to have any idea about going over there to fix things, but we had success with that close to never.

I dont think we tried it enough . Peace doesnt work . Telling Hitler to not attack other countries didnt really work . It worked when people got together and made him stop .  Telling the guy in north korea to not treat his people like shit is not working

But sending in USA , CHina , Russia , Nato  would have him gone in maybe a week ? heck you could find out where he is and drone him

Remember when the world put together over ten billion dollars to help Haiti? The general response to this problem couldn't be more different. The perception seems to be that refugees aren't really victims in the way that Haitians were

Yeah but thats the point , 200 k hatians were not coming to sweden or denmark . We could send money and send humitarian help .
And that was a fucking failur Didnt the red cross fuck up the money and nothing got done ?

https://www.propublica.org/article/how-the-red-cross-raised-half-a-billion-dollars-for-haiti-and-built-6-homes

[jonnysheen]

Isn't the refugee crisis to do with Birth rates?    Germany has one of the lowest birth rates in the world, so one way to solve the problem is to take refugees.  In time they will work and pay taxes etc.  The trouble is because its the leading EU country so others have to follow suit.

Basically it's down to growth vs change of lifestyle.   Its where capitalism is at odds with the right of politics, an unusual event in its self.

great debate btw

 

[iKobrakai]

great debate btw

No, not a great debate. This is about as bad as a typical pro-life/pro-choce or cannabis/liberal/conservatist debate. You have one extremist yelling at another. Both parties are grinding their political axe, just like always.

The pro-migration party refuses to admit that some immigrants are fucking animals and should get the fuck out of Europe. You know how we can deduct that some of them are pigs? By their fucking behaviour! If you are a legit refugee, you wont be raping, killing and whining about camps, because the simple fact that you dont have to fear for your life should be enough. Also, this party will be very unhappy when you point out the fact that the last thing the arabs in Europe want to see is more fucking arabs. Ask your hairdresser if you dont believe me.

Then we have the typical closet rasist coward. You know, "I have black friends" kind of guy, who will hold his wallet tight every time an unknown, slightly darker guy walks behind him. He will rarely state his political opinion to his Turkish co-worker. Prepare for endless "refugees should not be here to begin with", "helping on site" and "Im not rasist but..."  rants.

As I previously pointed out, Im an immigrant myself, so I know a thing or two about both sides to this story. Cant help to suspect that both parties consist of white, male Europeans with little insight. But hey, Ive been wrong before.

My hope is that there will be a solution-oriented debate, pointing out the obvious and calling each other names does not take a genius.

[Alan]

The pro-migration party refuses to admit that some immigrants are fucking animals and should get the fuck out of Europe. You know how we can deduct that some of them are pigs? By their fucking behaviour! If you are a legit refugee, you wont be raping, killing and whining about camps, because the simple fact that you dont have to fear for your life should be enough.

1. There are all sorts of people among the refugees, being a criminal doesn't make them less "legit," a criminal can still fear for his life. They're not cartoon villains. Having said that, I do believe that those who do commit crimes should be prosecuted, and the point has been made by others in this thread too, iirc.

2. Quality of life in camps is a real concern, as many reports testify. You as an immigrant (I assume a white European male) probably don't have experience in being in a refugee camp for years, or even half a year. So what makes your "insight" count?

3. The solution for the crisis needs to be systemic, otherwise it will only perpetuate the antagonism. Solutions have been proposed, but they're all very bitter pills for the European establishment.

[Monty Burns]

Ill post this up again . Im interested in hearing what Alan , Tufty , excitableboy and the rest of you guys

IIf war broke out in your country . Would you stay and fight ? or would you become a refugee ? .

Would you leave behind your mother , wife , kids and go to some other country and hope that IF you get to stay , IF you get a job , IF you get a house and IF you get money you will send for them ?

Or stay and fight for your side , and help your family and friends in your home country ?

Heres another of Montys horrible examples

Sweden is a pretty stable country , But I guess if the Swedish king made a grasp for power and decided that all jews in sweden must be killed , or a genocide against blue eyed people . Splitting the police and military in 2 factions . A civil war in Sweden

Or for any reason a civil war starts in your country and there is a side to pick

I would rather stay and fight

[Alan]

I don't know. It depends.


Is this important to the discussion at hand?

I hope that your example of a civil war wasn't an analogy to the war in Syria. Btw, if you know that your example and comparisons are useless and don't help your argument at all, why keep making them?