israel and palestine

[Frank and Fred]

I know. I've read the same memes and snippets you have.  I have been paying attention and will continue to do so. There is evidence to suggest otherwise per the BBC article. Believe me, I still overwhelmingly think Israel's response is unethical and a blatant violation of international law and human rights. But I'm also open to the truth. Event by event.

[GS77]

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The discussion over the hospital itself I suppose could be characterized as nuanced. And I think no matter your position on this, we should be open-minded to possibilities...

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67144061

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I agree. It is possible the terrorist military faction of Hamas bombed a hospital either on purpose or by accident. I can’t imagine Israel would bomb a hospital on purpose as it really makes them look like monsters.

[close]

An incredible worldview on display here.

Why don’t you explain what I said was wrong instead of making it personal.

[manysnakes]

I know. I've read the same memes and snippets you have.  I have been paying attention and will continue to do so. There is evidence to suggest otherwise per the BBC article. Believe me, I still overwhelmingly think Israel's response is unethical and a blatant violation of international law and human rights. But I'm also open to the truth. Event by event.

So you sincerely believe it’s equally likely that this is an errant Hamas rocket - one more powerful than any other rocket they have ever launched before - as it is that the people currently destroying Gaza with their overwhelming firepower blew up a hospital?

[manysnakes]

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The discussion over the hospital itself I suppose could be characterized as nuanced. And I think no matter your position on this, we should be open-minded to possibilities...

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67144061

[close]

I agree. It is possible the terrorist military faction of Hamas bombed a hospital either on purpose or by accident. I can’t imagine Israel would bomb a hospital on purpose as it really makes them look like monsters.

[close]

An incredible worldview on display here.

[close]

Why don’t you explain what I said was wrong instead of making it personal.

Israel has attacked hospitals in 2014, 2021, and earlier this week. They have maintained a blockade against Gaza which has kept most medicine out of the region since 2007. They currently have cut out all water into Gaza and blocked food shipments. Do you think they wouldn’t bomb a hospital this time, because they don’t want to be seen as monsters?

[Frank and Fred]

No, I do not.

I said, I am open to the truth.

My subjective belief is that I think it was very likely an Israeli bomb with a  subsequent terrible and barely plausible cover-up story.

However, I also don't put it past a Jihadist group to pull something like this off intentionally or a shitty rocket gone wrong. These both seem less likely for all the reasons you have already stated but not completely implausible.

[GS77]

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The discussion over the hospital itself I suppose could be characterized as nuanced. And I think no matter your position on this, we should be open-minded to possibilities...

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67144061

[close]

I agree. It is possible the terrorist military faction of Hamas bombed a hospital either on purpose or by accident. I can’t imagine Israel would bomb a hospital on purpose as it really makes them look like monsters.

[close]

An incredible worldview on display here.

[close]

Why don’t you explain what I said was wrong instead of making it personal.

[close]

Israel has attacked hospitals in 2014, 2021, and earlier this week. They have maintained a blockade against Gaza which has kept most medicine out of the region since 2007. They currently have cut out all water into Gaza and blocked food shipments. Do you think they wouldn’t bomb a hospital this time, because they don’t want to be seen as monsters?

I don’t follow every move Israel makes against Palestine. My point was that the whole world is watching so bombing a hospital pushes support away from Israel. It makes it harder for the US to back them.

Everything else they have done is indefensible but bombing a hospital is next level ugly. I don’t doubt that governments do monsterous things but strategically it doesn’t make sense.

[manysnakes]

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The discussion over the hospital itself I suppose could be characterized as nuanced. And I think no matter your position on this, we should be open-minded to possibilities...

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67144061

[close]

I agree. It is possible the terrorist military faction of Hamas bombed a hospital either on purpose or by accident. I can’t imagine Israel would bomb a hospital on purpose as it really makes them look like monsters.

[close]

An incredible worldview on display here.

[close]

Why don’t you explain what I said was wrong instead of making it personal.

[close]

Israel has attacked hospitals in 2014, 2021, and earlier this week. They have maintained a blockade against Gaza which has kept most medicine out of the region since 2007. They currently have cut out all water into Gaza and blocked food shipments. Do you think they wouldn’t bomb a hospital this time, because they don’t want to be seen as monsters?

[close]

I don’t follow every move Israel makes against Palestine. My point was that the whole world is watching so bombing a hospital pushes support away from Israel. It makes it harder for the US to back them.

Everything else they have done is indefensible but bombing a hospital is next level ugly. I don’t doubt that governments do monsterous things but strategically it doesn’t make sense.

When the goal is a second nakba and total ethnic cleansing, it makes perfect strategic sense, enough that they have done it multiple times without getting too much negative press coverage. Yes it’s very ugly which is why the media is running cover for them. Yesterday they blew up a hospital killing 500 and today they are welcoming the president of the United States.

[Frank and Fred]

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No, I do not.

I said, I am open to the truth.

My subjective belief is that I think it was very likely an Israeli bomb with a  subsequent terrible and barely plausible cover-up story.

However, I also don't put it past a Jihadist group to pull something like this off intentionally or a shitty rocket gone wrong. These both seem less likely for all the reasons you have already stated but not completely implausible.

[close]

okay im here to tell you that israel blew up the hospital since you're incapable of drawing your own conclusions. its the truth. so g'head and move along

I presume this is flippant sarcasm?


Nevertheless, as someone who deeply cares about the plight of the Palstgeinian people (I spent many years in the Middle East and have Palestinian friends) I will not 'move along.'

[manysnakes]

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No, I do not.

I said, I am open to the truth.

My subjective belief is that I think it was very likely an Israeli bomb with a  subsequent terrible and barely plausible cover-up story.

However, I also don't put it past a Jihadist group to pull something like this off intentionally or a shitty rocket gone wrong. These both seem less likely for all the reasons you have already stated but not completely implausible.

[close]

okay im here to tell you that israel blew up the hospital since you're incapable of drawing your own conclusions. its the truth. so g'head and move along

[close]

I presume this is flippant sarcasm?

I believe you are confusing sardonicism with sarcasm.

[Frank and Fred]

Yes. B/c i don't confuse them with Hamas or Islamic militants.

I am willing to continue to discuss the situation. But it looks like this is disintegrating into personal insults form people I mostly agree with no less.

[Frank and Fred]

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No, I do not.

I said, I am open to the truth.

My subjective belief is that I think it was very likely an Israeli bomb with a  subsequent terrible and barely plausible cover-up story.

However, I also don't put it past a Jihadist group to pull something like this off intentionally or a shitty rocket gone wrong. These both seem less likely for all the reasons you have already stated but not completely implausible.

[close]

okay im here to tell you that israel blew up the hospital since you're incapable of drawing your own conclusions. its the truth. so g'head and move along

[close]

I presume this is flippant sarcasm?

[close]

I believe you are confusing sardonicism with sarcasm.

Sure, you got me. Again, happy to continue this discussion without the pettiness.

[Pasta Monster]

Aside from the flip-flop by Israel, why would Hamas rely on paragliders and guns if they had weapons capabilities like what was used on the hospital?

[Frank and Fred]

Apt quote,

A former French ambassador to the US, Gérard Araud, said:

 “The truth about who was responsible for the Gaza hospital strike is now irrelevant. Public opinion has decided: Israel is the culprit. All the explanations won’t do anything. This is a major defeat for Israel. It will have political consequences.”

[Frank and Fred]

I'm not on the fence at all. I have been very clear with my support of Palestinian civilians and belief that the IDF is committing genocide.

At the same time, I don't think any of us can definitively say who bombed the hospital.

Also at the same time I have no sympathy for anti-semitism and no sympathy for militant Islam.

I'm pro-peace/ anti-war and firmly belief civilians are suffering because of inept leadership on both sides with Palestinians paying the highest price right now.

[EdLawndale]

I'm not on the fence at all. I have been very clear with my support of Palestinian civilians and belief that the IDF is committing genocide.

At the same time, I don't think any of us can definitively say who bombed the hospital.

Also at the same time I have no sympathy for anti-semitism and no sympathy for militant Islam.

I'm pro-peace/ anti-war and firmly belief civilians are suffering because of inept leadership on both sides with Palestinians paying the highest price right now.

Respectfully, Frank and Fred, you do sound a bit mixed up.

I'm mixed up too, but I know that I'm mixed up, and -- not being of the Islamic or Jewish faith, and not having any immediate ties to either of the countries in conflict -- am not speaking on it beyond expressing condolences.

I don't believe that this is a topic outsiders should be covering or opining on, aside from journalists, unless said outsider takes a hard, firm stance.

Maybe I'm wrong. And if you're not an outsider, forgive me.

We're all pro-peace/anti-war...

[Lord Viper Scorpion]

At the same time, I don't think any of us can definitively say who bombed the hospital.

https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/israels-spin-about-hospital-massacre-quickly-comes-apart

there you go my brother, free feel to investigate to your heart's content, there is a wealth of information in there

[Frank and Fred]

Ed, I think you bring up some good points. Aside from having close connections to the Middle East and several Palestinian fiends, I am an outsider, yes. I do disagree that we should not try to unpack this situation though.  Our tax dollars are directly supporting the Israeli war machine and I am vehemently opposed to this.

Again, I don't see how I am mixed up. Do I think the IDF is most likely responsible for bombing that hospital? Yes. Can anyone say for sure at the moment? No. Do I think it plausible that it was a accidental friendly fire? Yes. Do I think Hamas is capable of intentionally blowing its own people to shreds? Unfortunately, yes.

Lord Viper, thanks for the link. Its handy to have it summarized like that. I was already aware of much of the content and again, I also believe it was likely an IDF attack. But this is a belief not a fact at this point. And whatever comes to light down the line, what is happening in Gaza will never be excusable.

[whale]

I don’t see the point in debating over who fired the rocket.
Civilians are dying while Israel keeps a chokehold over Gaza.
Western world needs to man up and stop supporting Israel.


I’m not anti-semitic or pro-islam.


Fuck all religions.

[BALARGUE]

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At the same time, I don't think any of us can definitively say who bombed the hospital.

[close]

https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/israels-spin-about-hospital-massacre-quickly-comes-apart

there you go my brother, free feel to investigate to your heart's content, there is a wealth of information in there

electronic intifada, seems unbiased
Not denying the multiple statement changes, it just means one thing: We don't know yet.
There is an information war as usual and too many people believe rather than know, drawing conclusions way too fast. Especially with news like "according to Hamas" or "according to IDF". Both are regularly lying.

the most recent news are 10 to 50 deaths on the parking lot, no blast like a missile from Israel would do, almost no building damage / most certainly a rocket failure / remaining fuel fire on the parking lot

until the next version

[Lord Viper Scorpion]

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At the same time, I don't think any of us can definitively say who bombed the hospital.

[close]

https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/israels-spin-about-hospital-massacre-quickly-comes-apart

there you go my brother, free feel to investigate to your heart's content, there is a wealth of information in there

[close]

electronic intifada, seems unbiased
Not denying the multiple statement changes, it just means one thing: We don't know yet.
There is an information war as usual and too many people believe rather than know, drawing conclusions way too fast. Especially with news like "according to Hamas" or "according to IDF". Both are regularly lying.

the most recent news are 10 to 50 deaths on the parking lot, no blast like a rocket would do, no building destroyed / most certainly a rocket failure / remaining fuel fire on the parking lot

until the next version

yes, that source is biased, it's coming from Palestinian people who are being genocided

i dont know where you are getting your news from, but MSM does not filter the lies of the fascist state of israel, rather they just barf it back up on the front pages for idiots to spin, i.e. "beheaded babies"

israel has a long history of targeting civilians and lying about it, fuck them

[Uncle Flea]

hello, is anyone in amerikkka concerned that we are going totally nazi

I'm definitely not worried at all about waking up a nazi. I am disturbed that more people aint handing down perpetual problems to their racist neighbors.

You have the power to create change for the betterment of the neighborhood with at least your words.

Drive the racist elements from the area.

You truly have the power to make life hell on a fool

Get a big bucket and fill it to the brim with cat pan mess over some weeks.

Take the bucket and throw it into Cooter's truck.

Go home and wait for the chance to defend yourself.

[layzieyez]

Even if the hospital was Hamas, Israel doesn't deny bombing Palestinians who were trying to flee into Egypt.

[Uncle Flea]

Idk what happened at the hospital.

I believe that neither side gives a shit about the people who got hurt.

Everyone out there doesn't like each other.

Idk what to do there.

Because everyone has bombs and rockets and missiles I'd probably just be trying to leave or trying to cool out in jail if possible

[Frank and Fred]

Agreedwith most pf the above comments. The bigger picture is far more important at this point, as many commentators have been suggesting, Who's fault it is almost doesn't matter, in a twisted way.

[Uncle Flea]

I just hope we don't loose any pals to this bronze age bullshit.

-ngnm

[BALARGUE]

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At the same time, I don't think any of us can definitively say who bombed the hospital.

[close]

https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/israels-spin-about-hospital-massacre-quickly-comes-apart

there you go my brother, free feel to investigate to your heart's content, there is a wealth of information in there

[close]

electronic intifada, seems unbiased
Not denying the multiple statement changes, it just means one thing: We don't know yet.
There is an information war as usual and too many people believe rather than know, drawing conclusions way too fast. Especially with news like "according to Hamas" or "according to IDF". Both are regularly lying.

the most recent news are 10 to 50 deaths on the parking lot, no blast like a rocket would do, no building destroyed / most certainly a rocket failure / remaining fuel fire on the parking lot

until the next version

[close]

yes, that source is biased, it's coming from Palestinian people who are being genocided

i dont know where you are getting your news from, but MSM does not filter the lies of the fascist state of israel, rather they just barf it back up on the front pages for idiots to spin, i.e. "beheaded babies"

israel has a long history of targeting civilians and lying about it, fuck them

what is MSM ?
I usually/mainly get my news from France Info which is a rather independent (slightly left leaning) media channel but on heated topics like this one i try to read from multiple sources.

I hope you don't feel like i'm denying the sufferings of Palestinians or justifying war crimes. I'm just looking for truth and understanding of this complex situation.
France and Belgium have been hit by terrorists (a teacher and two swedish people have been killed by islamists following what's happening in middle east). we're on the same boat and there is a ticking bomb.

[GrayCellGreen]

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The discussion over the hospital itself I suppose could be characterized as nuanced. And I think no matter your position on this, we should be open-minded to possibilities...

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67144061

[close]

I'm really surprised no one has posted this:

From 2004

[EdLawndale]

MSM is an acronym for "Main Stream Media" utilized by right wing kooks.

[IUTSM]

MSM is an acronym for "Main Stream Media" utilized by right wing kooks.

it was in use, and still is, by the left well before the contemporary right rose to prominence in the discussion critical of anything mainstream. Phrases such as “sheeple” and “lame stream” were also co-opted by the right.

I feel this important to note as, often on the internet, and has been evidenced on this forum, when ever someone critiques the “mainstream” media, it’s assumed by US liberal or Democratic Party people whose political consciousness (and im not talking about you, Ed) was only recently developed via social media, that they’re in league with Jones, Shapiro, etc. Adbusters was a thing in the 80s. Battle in Seattle 1999. Occupy. Democracy Now! 1996. Redwood Summer. Earth First! And thats all mostly just domestic anti-capitalist, anti-oppression, and anti-mainstream media

Anyways, back to the topic at hand

[Lord Viper Scorpion]

I hope you don't feel like i'm denying the sufferings of Palestinians or justifying war crimes.

i don't, but I also think people haven't investigated palestine/israeli history enough if they aren't a huge cynic of israeli/us propaganda