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General Discussion => WHATEVER => Topic started by: pool coping on October 09, 2023, 07:59:15 PM
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what are your thoughts on the current situation in the levant?
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(https://i.ibb.co/fGfnDKm/IMG-6098.gif) (https://ibb.co/84qdYRF)
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Terrible all round. There's no justification for Hamas' recent actions but the media's ongoing one-sidedness is disgusting. Where has the outcry and condemnation been for the Palestinians leading up to this? Israel know they have a few weeks of overwhelming support to go really hard before the international community comes around and demands some restraint. Ultimately, flattening Gaza will inspire a new generation of radicals and the cycle will continue, while arms dealers rub their hands.
Civilians on both sides are going to pay the highest price for those in power's games. But Palestinians in Gaza are going to come out of this the worst, no matter who you blame.
Israelis and Palestinians deserve better leadership and the rest of us need to accept how complicit our own leaders are in all of this.
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Israel created Hamas (https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/) to counter the PLO and other left wing organizations, then stuck them for fifteen years in a pressure-cooker situation until the seal burst and now they can justify ever further aggression against Palestine and expansion into Palestinian territories. The Israeli right (and most of the country is pretty far right) has been waiting for this moment for over a decade. They are ecstatic to justify further ethnic cleaning.
Obviously nothing can excuse the massacre at the party, but a stray thought which sticks with me is that there’s something so grimly macabre about gathering outside the border wall of an open-air prison, on land which is “legally Palestinian” (in terms of international law which Israel ignores without consequence) and on which Palestinians lived until the second GW Bush term, in order to conduct a rave.
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(https://www.aljazeera.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/20121126133519761734_20.jpeg)
"miss me yet?"
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Israel created Hamas (https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/) to counter the PLO and other left wing organizations, then stuck them for fifteen years in an pressure-cooker situation until the seal burst and now they can justify ever further aggression against Palestine and expansion into Palestinian territories.
Makes a lot of sense and they probably did that with the backing and guidance of the US/ UK... remember how we funded Islamic militants in Afghanistan to fight the Soviets back in the Cold War?
The cynic in me, does not believe Israel couldn't see this coming. This will all be to their advantage at the cost of thousands of civilians on both sides.
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Israel created Hamas (https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/) to counter the PLO and other left wing organizations, then stuck them for fifteen years in an pressure-cooker situation until the seal burst and now they can justify ever further aggression against Palestine and expansion into Palestinian territories.
Makes a lot of sense and they probably did that with the backing and guidance of the US/ UK... remember how we funded Islamic militants in Afghanistan to fight the Soviets back in the Cold War?
The cynic in me, does not believe Israel couldn't see this coming. This will all be to their advantage at the cost of thousands of civilians on both sides.
Western elites have demonstrated again and again a preference for Islamic fundamentalists over anyone who articulates a vision of redistribution.
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Obviously nothing can excuse the massacre at the party, but
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It's obvious that Israel should except the terms.
Two state solution is the only way to avoid more blood.
Theses fools been fighting over this imaginary shit since the beginning of recorded time.
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I think Biden’s response has been terrible. He seems like a puppet of the Israeli state. He is basically acting like Tony Blair (a lap dog for George Bush) during the Iraq war. Why can’t he say loud and clear that Hamas is not Palestine? The Palestinians are in the middle of a pressure cooker, but instead of expressing this Biden is co-signing Israel’s desire to go in to the Gaza Strip and absorb it into Israel. The Israeli government is going to take advantage of this attack to further displace the Palestinians and the U.S. government is going to let them.
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Aren’t there a few Israeli Pals on here? Eranka? Is everyone alright?
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Last I heard, the homie Concerned_Skater was over in Israel with his wife. Hope he (and everyone) is doing as best as possible, considering the current situation.
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i think it's crazy that israel just gets away with committing undeniable war crimes like bombing civilians and starving/cutting off essential utilities to palestinians and the world still sees them as the victim. like at what point does the world say 'come on now israel, that's enough' or are we just going to let them straight up commit genocide? also ridiculous how many of the horrible claims of babies being beheaded and such are just unfounded.
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i think it's crazy that israel just gets away with committing undeniable war crimes like bombing civilians and starving/cutting off essential utilities to palestinians and the world still sees them as the victim. like at what point does the world say 'come on now israel, that's enough' or are we just going to let them straight up commit genocide? also ridiculous how many of the horrible claims of babies being beheaded and such are just unfounded.
https://www.instagram.com/p/CyOb5wpL7Zl/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
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At this point there are no winners, only losers in the form of innocents on both sides of the border. It's unjustifiable what is happening to the civilians of both Israel and Palestine. Hamas and the Government of Israel do not represent the people that are suffering the most.
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I think Biden’s response has been terrible. He seems like a puppet of the Israeli state. He is basically acting like Tony Blair (a lap dog for George Bush) during the Iraq war. Why can’t he say loud and clear that Hamas is not Palestine? The Palestinians are in the middle of a pressure cooker, but instead of expressing this Biden is co-signing Israel’s desire to go in to the Gaza Strip and absorb it into Israel. The Israeli government is going to take advantage of this attack to further displace the Palestinians and the U.S. government is going to let them.
If you're an ally to the American Government you can get away with as many atrocities as you want. The United States looked the other way when Saudi Arabia was committing atrocities in Yemen.
If you have something America wants or needs like oil, military strategic advantage in a region, lobbying groups that will fund your campaign, etc the US doesn't care what if you're ethnically cleansing some poor undesirables with no political power.
Palestinians don't have anything. They have no money. They have no strong military. They have no political power. They don't even have water or electricity. Shit by 2030 they probably will have no more land either. Because of that in their eyes they don't matter and are not worth speaking up for and defending them.
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Obviously nothing can excuse the massacre at the party, but
This quote with your Tyshawn signature reminds me of the one dude in every barbershop that pops in, drops a real crazy hot take for everyone to argue about, then leaves early never intending to get a haircut.
Oh and from the best of my knowledge what’s going on in that area of the world is Palestinian genocide from decades of post-WW2/ Cold War fuckery. The Hamas atrocities are being used to justify aggression in similar fashion to how 9/11 gave the government a free pass to spy of civilians and bully the Middle East. I think Americans have grown to become particularly offended when the media tries to conflate the safety of the public with the intent of the government, which is why I think there is so many mixed responses.
I want all my Jews in Israel to be safe, and I’m sad about the lives lost but you have to do more to call out the fuckshit your government is on. It should have never gotten to this point.
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The UN should just spay the middle east with LSD and send in a ton of PATRIOTIC sex workers and call it a day.
All those power fools just need lube. It's dry in the desert and sweat and spit will only get you so far
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The UN should just spay the middle east with LSD and send in a ton of PATRIOTIC sex workers and call it a day.
All those power fools just need lube. It's dry in the desert and sweat and spit will only get you so far
That sounds like my theory that legalized, taxed and unstigmatized prostitution would drastically reduce random shootings in the west.
With the Middle East you can’t ignore the resource issues though. As long as they are sitting on an abundance of oil and rare minerals the super powers will be interested. Most of the fuckery is a growth in radical religious sects in response to countries like USA and Russia wanting to influence the political powers of those regions.
That’s why they try to teach American children that the Israel Palestine conflict is some centuries old beef when most of the bullshit started in the 1950’s.
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'48
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I’d highly recommend giving Maen a follow. He’s a skater/photographer in Palestine and he’s posting some really heart wrenching stuff right now about every day Palestinians.
https://instagram.com/maenster?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA== (https://instagram.com/maenster?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==)
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Aren’t there a few Israeli Pals on here? Eranka? Is everyone alright?
currently in reserve service in the north of the country, this whole situation feels almost unreal, it is devastating and it will take a long time to recover from this attack.me and everyone I know know someone who died or got kidnapped. I really don’t feel like debating or explaining anything right now.
The Israeli skate family lost a great kid on Saturday
http://youtu.be/DZIzsL1SRGU?si=4mNPyL0u-KXIrhYQ
Rip Ofek
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I am sorry this happened to the people of your country. Stay safe. There is really nothing to say. I wish you well.
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Aren’t there a few Israeli Pals on here? Eranka? Is everyone alright?
The Israeli skate family lost a great kid on Saturday
http://youtu.be/DZIzsL1SRGU?si=4mNPyL0u-KXIrhYQ
Rip Ofek
Stay save!
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I think Biden’s response has been terrible. He seems like a puppet of the Israeli state. He is basically acting like Tony Blair (a lap dog for George Bush) during the Iraq war. Why can’t he say loud and clear that Hamas is not Palestine? The Palestinians are in the middle of a pressure cooker, but instead of expressing this Biden is co-signing Israel’s desire to go in to the Gaza Strip and absorb it into Israel. The Israeli government is going to take advantage of this attack to further displace the Palestinians and the U.S. government is going to let them.
If you're an ally to the American Government you can get away with as many atrocities as you want. The United States looked the other way when Saudi Arabia was committing atrocities in Yemen.
If you have something America wants or needs like oil, military strategic advantage in a region, lobbying groups that will fund your campaign, etc the US doesn't care what if you're ethnically cleansing some poor undesirables with no political power.
Palestinians don't have anything. They have no money. They have no strong military. They have no political power. They don't even have water or electricity. Shit by 2030 they probably will have no more land either. Because of that in their eyes they don't matter and are not worth speaking up for and defending them.
Ding, ding, ding, We've got a winner!
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Aren’t there a few Israeli Pals on here? Eranka? Is everyone alright?
The Israeli skate family lost a great kid on Saturday
http://youtu.be/DZIzsL1SRGU?si=4mNPyL0u-KXIrhYQ
Rip Ofek
Stay safe, man.
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Aren’t there a few Israeli Pals on here? Eranka? Is everyone alright?
The Israeli skate family lost a great kid on Saturday
http://youtu.be/DZIzsL1SRGU?si=4mNPyL0u-KXIrhYQ
Rip Ofek
Be safe Yo. Im sorry about your friend. I wish no more people would get hurt.
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Fuck Hamas, it’s a religious-fascist government that doesn’t have popular support for its violence against civilians.
Double goes for Nentanyahu and the Zionist government for the exact same reasons
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'48
'97
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I’d highly recommend giving Maen a follow. He’s a skater/photographer in Palestine and he’s posting some really heart wrenching stuff right now about every day Palestinians.
https://instagram.com/maenster?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA== (https://instagram.com/maenster?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==)
Thanks for sharing.
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Aren’t there a few Israeli Pals on here? Eranka? Is everyone alright?
The Israeli skate family lost a great kid on Saturday
http://youtu.be/DZIzsL1SRGU?si=4mNPyL0u-KXIrhYQ
Rip Ofek
Sorry for your loss. I understand not wanting to debate. Hope you and your loved ones get through this safely.
I also hope your leaders come to their senses and ease up on civilians in Gaza.
Peace.
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All I know for sure is that it's the civilians who pay the price on both sides like alwas.
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I’d highly recommend giving Maen a follow. He’s a skater/photographer in Palestine and he’s posting some really heart wrenching stuff right now about every day Palestinians.
https://instagram.com/maenster?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA== (https://instagram.com/maenster?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==)
Im supper gutted, its tragic to see lives unnecessarily cut short on both sides. It breaks my heart to hear about skaters caught up in the conflict when they just trying to live.
I brought up kenny reed in another thread, but he's a part of helping this organization in Palestine.
https://www.instagram.com/SkateQilya/
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Isn't Zionism based on a work of fiction. Similar to Braill.
I know like all religions are and everything is made up anyway.
I was told once the idea comes from a book I can't remember that was written in the 20s
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I was told once the idea comes from a book I can't remember that was written in the 20s
Der Judenstaat - 1897
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I was told once the idea comes from a book I can't remember that was written in the 20s
Der Judenstaat - 1897
The Jewish State. thanks pal
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I don't know enough about the situation to have a real opinion of any value.
All I can say is it seems like a fucking nightmare that won't end. I feel bad for Israelis who get killed dancing at a festival, I feel bad for Palestinians who get their homes stolen by "settlers," I feel bad Jews still get treated like shit and we still have idiots in America chanting, "Jews will not replace us," I feel bad that Israel is being run by a complete asshole and the ultra religious are keeping him in power, I feel bad that Israel is displacing over a million people, I feel bad that there are theocratic nations in the region as no theocratic nation can be sane... the list of things that suck seems like it could go on forever.
Like what a fucking nightmare. I feel bad for everyone but I'm angry at everyone as well, including Truman who played a role in creating this entire mess and the British their bungled colonialism in the region.
https://history.state.gov/milestones/1945-1952/creation-israel
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during the attack by Hamas
(https://media.tenor.com/JyKRQb7aCZcAAAAC/children-think.gif)
after the airstrike that killed 600+ Palestinian children
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/a0/45/fb/a045fbe2db56398a948a6e16f8261a7a.gif)
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Is anyone still pretending that there are two sides to this active genocide?
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/world/at-least-500-killed-in-israeli-airstrike-on-gaza-city-hospital-health-ministry-says
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hello, is anyone in amerikkka concerned that we are going totally nazi
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Def concerned that if this situation does not chill soon we will be facing a far wider reaching conflict. And yes, the USA and UK have a lot to answer to here.
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free Palestine
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There’s so much I could say here.. a ray of hope in all this is that because it’s all being shown in real time on social media. With all that being shown so openly, evidence of Israel’s blatant war crimes are so obvious. So hopefully the world will see all this and actually condemn Israel’s actions. Regardless of how likely this actually is.
I’ve also seen the sentiment that Zionism will never win as long as Palestinians still exist in this world. Their culture and spirit is so strong. I’ve spent a little time in Palestine. I’ve experienced how beautiful and resilient their culture is. Zionism can’t eliminate that no matter what, regardless of how much physical land that is tied to.
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Is anyone still pretending that there are two sides to this active genocide?
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/world/at-least-500-killed-in-israeli-airstrike-on-gaza-city-hospital-health-ministry-says
I wouldn’t be so quick to judge. According to the bbc the case is not as clear as it seemed yesterday.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67141589
i wouldn’t rule out that this may also stem from an airstrike, but there are a couple of things that would at least suggest it might be a stray Islamic Jihad rocket. Including the fact that Israel is probably not interested in losing new found partners in the region.
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Is anyone still pretending that there are two sides to this active genocide?
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/world/at-least-500-killed-in-israeli-airstrike-on-gaza-city-hospital-health-ministry-says
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67141589
i wouldn’t rule out that this may also stem from an airstrike, but there are a couple of things that would at least suggest it might be a stray Islamic Jihad rocket. Including the fact that Israel is probably not interested in losing new found partners in the region.
Be too quick to judge what?
One country completely controls the access of pretty much everything beyond sunlight to the other.
One country lets its citizens illegally colonize the other.
One country grants or restricts rights to the other.
Whenever the oppressed country strikes back, the stronger country responds with 10x the force.
There is not even a whiff of symmetry here.
One country is actively genociding the other.
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Is anyone still pretending that there are two sides to this active genocide?
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/world/at-least-500-killed-in-israeli-airstrike-on-gaza-city-hospital-health-ministry-says
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67141589
i wouldn’t rule out that this may also stem from an airstrike, but there are a couple of things that would at least suggest it might be a stray Islamic Jihad rocket. Including the fact that Israel is probably not interested in losing new found partners in the region.
Be too quick to judge what?
One country completely controls the access of pretty much everything beyond sunlight to the other.
One country lets its citizens illegally colonize the other.
One country grants or restricts rights to the other.
Whenever the oppressed country strikes back, the stronger country responds with 10x the force.
There is not even a whiff of symmetry here.
One country is actively genociding the other.
To judge this particular incident.
The problems of this conflict are far too complex that I’d want to discuss them in an online forum, though.
Nowhere did I talk about symmetry or who is to blame. I just wanted to make the remark that no matter how terrible everything is, we should be hesitant to make quick judgements to events, that are not fully investigated yet.
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The incident comes in the broader context of an ongoing genocide. I’m not sure what kind of nuanced position you want in terms of the outcome of this
Israel initially took responsibility for the attacks on social media before they scrubbed it and blamed Hamas. Experts don’t believe Hamas has enough high-grade munitions to destroy a hospital that size so completely.
Ignoring that, even if Hamas DID blow up its own hospital, how does that significantly change anything about how Israel should respond to its continual
destruction of the Palestinians?
Does this event, on the bizarre chance that Hamas destroyed its own hospital in the despite being in the mist of a massive Israeli air strike, change the fundamental problem that Israel’s completely overarching power and destruction is creating the misery that allows the justification for groups like Hamas to exist?
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The incident comes in the broader context of an ongoing genocide. I’m not sure what kind of nuanced position you want in terms of the outcome of this
Israel initially took responsibility for the attacks on social media before they scrubbed it and blamed Hamas. Experts don’t believe Hamas has enough high-grade munitions to destroy a hospital that size so completely.
Ignoring that, even if Hamas DID blow up its own hospital, how does that significantly change anything about how Israel should respond to its continual
destruction of the Palestinians?
Does this event, on the bizarre chance that Hamas destroyed its own hospital in the despite being in the mist of a massive Israeli air strike, change the fundamental problem that Israel’s completely overarching power and destruction is creating the misery that allows the justification for groups like Hamas to exist?
I don't share your view on this conflict in the same way you do. I understand how you can come to this perspective, but i don't think that it is as easy – but this would go way too deep into discussing the vast history of this conflict. And i'm not interested in a discussion about this.
I think that that a two state solution is the only way to go. I fully support the Palestinian people in this claim (just to give a bit of context, where I'm coming from – maybe this helps to keep this discussion outside of calling names and the usual verbal escalation)
Regarding the rockets – there are numerous reports of Hamas now having access to a certain amount of larger rockets. There was an announcement of Islamic Jihad that there will be a new rocket attack shortly before the event. There's al jazeera footage of a rocket failing and falling short – so it may be possible. And it would be really problematic from my perspective if this has happened and Hamas had shifted the blame to Israel, because the consequences will be devastating – even beyond this conflict.
The thing, why i'm stating all this, is not because i want the Gaza strip and the Westbank be in such a terrible shape they are in now. I'm hoping for them they overcome idiots like Hamas, who would do anything to escalate the conflict and don't care about the civilian people living there. (disclaimer: there are equally idiotic people on the Israel side). This is, why i'm careful with such quick statements. Things like knowing a number of people killed shortly after the incident makes me sceptical.
And to be clear – yes, there is also the chance that this was an airstrike, since the IDF warned people to evacuate that hospital.
Either way. It's totally terrible.
And at the moment everybody is moving further away from finding a solution. And being quick to judge will move everyone even further away.
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thats a lot of words to say nothing my guy
thanks for the input.
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Hey guys I looked and on the news it says that the country carrying out a massive illegal aerial bombardment of their captive population says that they didn't actually blow up the hospital they said they would blow up and then took credit for blowing up. Turns out the bad guys actually did all the killing - what were the odds!?
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Enjoy your circle jerk.
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Enjoy your circle jerk.
Enjoy your "nuance".
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Will do thanks
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sorry i meant this is too nuanced for me
While I agree with your sentiment, this situation is pretty far from nuanced at the stage. I'd characterize it as blatant.
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The discussion over the hospital itself I suppose could be characterized as nuanced. And I think no matter your position on this, we should be open-minded to possibilities...
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67144061 (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67144061)
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The discussion over the hospital itself I suppose could be characterized as nuanced. And I think no matter your position on this, we should be open-minded to possibilities...
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67144061 (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67144061)
I agree. It is possible the terrorist military faction of Hamas bombed a hospital either on purpose or by accident. I can’t imagine Israel would bomb a hospital on purpose as it really makes them look like monsters. However, war is hell and killing innocent people is an unintended consequence, but end of the day they are still dead so it doesn’t really matter what the intentions were.
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The discussion over the hospital itself I suppose could be characterized as nuanced. And I think no matter your position on this, we should be open-minded to possibilities...
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67144061 (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67144061)
(https://i.ibb.co/JsZ0Zk0/IMG-0208.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JsZ0Zk0)
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The discussion over the hospital itself I suppose could be characterized as nuanced. And I think no matter your position on this, we should be open-minded to possibilities...
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67144061 (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67144061)
I agree. It is possible the terrorist military faction of Hamas bombed a hospital either on purpose or by accident. I can’t imagine Israel would bomb a hospital on purpose as it really makes them look like monsters.
An incredible worldview on display here.
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The discussion over the hospital itself I suppose could be characterized as nuanced. And I think no matter your position on this, we should be open-minded to possibilities...
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67144061 (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67144061)
(https://i.ibb.co/JsZ0Zk0/IMG-0208.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JsZ0Zk0)
I'm not counting it out at all. for the record I believe the IDF is completely capable of such an accidental/ intentional atrocity. But I do believe the jury is still out on this one event.
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The discussion over the hospital itself I suppose could be characterized as nuanced. And I think no matter your position on this, we should be open-minded to possibilities...
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67144061 (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67144061)
(https://i.ibb.co/JsZ0Zk0/IMG-0208.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JsZ0Zk0)
I'm not counting it out at all. for the record I believe the IDF is completely capable of such an accidental/ intentional atrocity. But I do believe the jury is still out on this one event.
They ordered an evacuation, bombed the hospital, claimed responsibility, and then changed their story once it was clear from the reaction in the west that they had gone too far. Now a compliant media is helping them cover for their atrocity, as they always do.
This all happened in real time yesterday as people watched. Any other version of events is literally Orwellian.
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I know. I've read the same memes and snippets you have. I have been paying attention and will continue to do so. There is evidence to suggest otherwise per the BBC article. Believe me, I still overwhelmingly think Israel's response is unethical and a blatant violation of international law and human rights. But I'm also open to the truth. Event by event.
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The discussion over the hospital itself I suppose could be characterized as nuanced. And I think no matter your position on this, we should be open-minded to possibilities...
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67144061 (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67144061)
I agree. It is possible the terrorist military faction of Hamas bombed a hospital either on purpose or by accident. I can’t imagine Israel would bomb a hospital on purpose as it really makes them look like monsters.
An incredible worldview on display here.
Why don’t you explain what I said was wrong instead of making it personal.
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I know. I've read the same memes and snippets you have. I have been paying attention and will continue to do so. There is evidence to suggest otherwise per the BBC article. Believe me, I still overwhelmingly think Israel's response is unethical and a blatant violation of international law and human rights. But I'm also open to the truth. Event by event.
So you sincerely believe it’s equally likely that this is an errant Hamas rocket - one more powerful than any other rocket they have ever launched before - as it is that the people currently destroying Gaza with their overwhelming firepower blew up a hospital?
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The discussion over the hospital itself I suppose could be characterized as nuanced. And I think no matter your position on this, we should be open-minded to possibilities...
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67144061 (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67144061)
I agree. It is possible the terrorist military faction of Hamas bombed a hospital either on purpose or by accident. I can’t imagine Israel would bomb a hospital on purpose as it really makes them look like monsters.
An incredible worldview on display here.
Why don’t you explain what I said was wrong instead of making it personal.
Israel has attacked hospitals in 2014, 2021, and earlier this week. They have maintained a blockade against Gaza which has kept most medicine out of the region since 2007. They currently have cut out all water into Gaza and blocked food shipments. Do you think they wouldn’t bomb a hospital this time, because they don’t want to be seen as monsters?
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No, I do not.
I said, I am open to the truth.
My subjective belief is that I think it was very likely an Israeli bomb with a subsequent terrible and barely plausible cover-up story.
However, I also don't put it past a Jihadist group to pull something like this off intentionally or a shitty rocket gone wrong. These both seem less likely for all the reasons you have already stated but not completely implausible.
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The discussion over the hospital itself I suppose could be characterized as nuanced. And I think no matter your position on this, we should be open-minded to possibilities...
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67144061 (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67144061)
I agree. It is possible the terrorist military faction of Hamas bombed a hospital either on purpose or by accident. I can’t imagine Israel would bomb a hospital on purpose as it really makes them look like monsters.
An incredible worldview on display here.
Why don’t you explain what I said was wrong instead of making it personal.
Israel has attacked hospitals in 2014, 2021, and earlier this week. They have maintained a blockade against Gaza which has kept most medicine out of the region since 2007. They currently have cut out all water into Gaza and blocked food shipments. Do you think they wouldn’t bomb a hospital this time, because they don’t want to be seen as monsters?
I don’t follow every move Israel makes against Palestine. My point was that the whole world is watching so bombing a hospital pushes support away from Israel. It makes it harder for the US to back them.
Everything else they have done is indefensible but bombing a hospital is next level ugly. I don’t doubt that governments do monsterous things but strategically it doesn’t make sense.
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The discussion over the hospital itself I suppose could be characterized as nuanced. And I think no matter your position on this, we should be open-minded to possibilities...
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67144061 (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67144061)
I agree. It is possible the terrorist military faction of Hamas bombed a hospital either on purpose or by accident. I can’t imagine Israel would bomb a hospital on purpose as it really makes them look like monsters.
An incredible worldview on display here.
Why don’t you explain what I said was wrong instead of making it personal.
Israel has attacked hospitals in 2014, 2021, and earlier this week. They have maintained a blockade against Gaza which has kept most medicine out of the region since 2007. They currently have cut out all water into Gaza and blocked food shipments. Do you think they wouldn’t bomb a hospital this time, because they don’t want to be seen as monsters?
I don’t follow every move Israel makes against Palestine. My point was that the whole world is watching so bombing a hospital pushes support away from Israel. It makes it harder for the US to back them.
Everything else they have done is indefensible but bombing a hospital is next level ugly. I don’t doubt that governments do monsterous things but strategically it doesn’t make sense.
When the goal is a second nakba and total ethnic cleansing, it makes perfect strategic sense, enough that they have done it multiple times without getting too much negative press coverage. Yes it’s very ugly which is why the media is running cover for them. Yesterday they blew up a hospital killing 500 and today they are welcoming the president of the United States.
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No, I do not.
I said, I am open to the truth.
My subjective belief is that I think it was very likely an Israeli bomb with a subsequent terrible and barely plausible cover-up story.
However, I also don't put it past a Jihadist group to pull something like this off intentionally or a shitty rocket gone wrong. These both seem less likely for all the reasons you have already stated but not completely implausible.
okay im here to tell you that israel blew up the hospital since you're incapable of drawing your own conclusions. its the truth. so g'head and move along
I presume this is flippant sarcasm?
Nevertheless, as someone who deeply cares about the plight of the Palstgeinian people (I spent many years in the Middle East and have Palestinian friends) I will not 'move along.'
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No, I do not.
I said, I am open to the truth.
My subjective belief is that I think it was very likely an Israeli bomb with a subsequent terrible and barely plausible cover-up story.
However, I also don't put it past a Jihadist group to pull something like this off intentionally or a shitty rocket gone wrong. These both seem less likely for all the reasons you have already stated but not completely implausible.
okay im here to tell you that israel blew up the hospital since you're incapable of drawing your own conclusions. its the truth. so g'head and move along
I presume this is flippant sarcasm?
I believe you are confusing sardonicism with sarcasm.
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Yes. B/c i don't confuse them with Hamas or Islamic militants.
I am willing to continue to discuss the situation. But it looks like this is disintegrating into personal insults form people I mostly agree with no less.
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No, I do not.
I said, I am open to the truth.
My subjective belief is that I think it was very likely an Israeli bomb with a subsequent terrible and barely plausible cover-up story.
However, I also don't put it past a Jihadist group to pull something like this off intentionally or a shitty rocket gone wrong. These both seem less likely for all the reasons you have already stated but not completely implausible.
okay im here to tell you that israel blew up the hospital since you're incapable of drawing your own conclusions. its the truth. so g'head and move along
I presume this is flippant sarcasm?
I believe you are confusing sardonicism with sarcasm.
Sure, you got me. Again, happy to continue this discussion without the pettiness.
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Aside from the flip-flop by Israel, why would Hamas rely on paragliders and guns if they had weapons capabilities like what was used on the hospital?
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Apt quote,
A former French ambassador to the US, Gérard Araud, said:
“The truth about who was responsible for the Gaza hospital strike is now irrelevant. Public opinion has decided: Israel is the culprit. All the explanations won’t do anything. This is a major defeat for Israel. It will have political consequences.”
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I'm not on the fence at all. I have been very clear with my support of Palestinian civilians and belief that the IDF is committing genocide.
At the same time, I don't think any of us can definitively say who bombed the hospital.
Also at the same time I have no sympathy for anti-semitism and no sympathy for militant Islam.
I'm pro-peace/ anti-war and firmly belief civilians are suffering because of inept leadership on both sides with Palestinians paying the highest price right now.
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I'm not on the fence at all. I have been very clear with my support of Palestinian civilians and belief that the IDF is committing genocide.
At the same time, I don't think any of us can definitively say who bombed the hospital.
Also at the same time I have no sympathy for anti-semitism and no sympathy for militant Islam.
I'm pro-peace/ anti-war and firmly belief civilians are suffering because of inept leadership on both sides with Palestinians paying the highest price right now.
Respectfully, Frank and Fred, you do sound a bit mixed up.
I'm mixed up too, but I know that I'm mixed up, and -- not being of the Islamic or Jewish faith, and not having any immediate ties to either of the countries in conflict -- am not speaking on it beyond expressing condolences.
I don't believe that this is a topic outsiders should be covering or opining on, aside from journalists, unless said outsider takes a hard, firm stance.
Maybe I'm wrong. And if you're not an outsider, forgive me.
We're all pro-peace/anti-war...
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At the same time, I don't think any of us can definitively say who bombed the hospital.
https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/israels-spin-about-hospital-massacre-quickly-comes-apart
there you go my brother, free feel to investigate to your heart's content, there is a wealth of information in there
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Ed, I think you bring up some good points. Aside from having close connections to the Middle East and several Palestinian fiends, I am an outsider, yes. I do disagree that we should not try to unpack this situation though. Our tax dollars are directly supporting the Israeli war machine and I am vehemently opposed to this.
Again, I don't see how I am mixed up. Do I think the IDF is most likely responsible for bombing that hospital? Yes. Can anyone say for sure at the moment? No. Do I think it plausible that it was a accidental friendly fire? Yes. Do I think Hamas is capable of intentionally blowing its own people to shreds? Unfortunately, yes.
Lord Viper, thanks for the link. Its handy to have it summarized like that. I was already aware of much of the content and again, I also believe it was likely an IDF attack. But this is a belief not a fact at this point. And whatever comes to light down the line, what is happening in Gaza will never be excusable.
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I don’t see the point in debating over who fired the rocket.
Civilians are dying while Israel keeps a chokehold over Gaza.
Western world needs to man up and stop supporting Israel.
I’m not anti-semitic or pro-islam.
Fuck all religions.
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At the same time, I don't think any of us can definitively say who bombed the hospital.
https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/israels-spin-about-hospital-massacre-quickly-comes-apart
there you go my brother, free feel to investigate to your heart's content, there is a wealth of information in there
electronic intifada, seems unbiased
Not denying the multiple statement changes, it just means one thing: We don't know yet.
There is an information war as usual and too many people believe rather than know, drawing conclusions way too fast. Especially with news like "according to Hamas" or "according to IDF". Both are regularly lying.
the most recent news are 10 to 50 deaths on the parking lot, no blast like a missile from Israel would do, almost no building damage / most certainly a rocket failure / remaining fuel fire on the parking lot
until the next version
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At the same time, I don't think any of us can definitively say who bombed the hospital.
https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/israels-spin-about-hospital-massacre-quickly-comes-apart
there you go my brother, free feel to investigate to your heart's content, there is a wealth of information in there
electronic intifada, seems unbiased
Not denying the multiple statement changes, it just means one thing: We don't know yet.
There is an information war as usual and too many people believe rather than know, drawing conclusions way too fast. Especially with news like "according to Hamas" or "according to IDF". Both are regularly lying.
the most recent news are 10 to 50 deaths on the parking lot, no blast like a rocket would do, no building destroyed / most certainly a rocket failure / remaining fuel fire on the parking lot
until the next version
yes, that source is biased, it's coming from Palestinian people who are being genocided
i dont know where you are getting your news from, but MSM does not filter the lies of the fascist state of israel, rather they just barf it back up on the front pages for idiots to spin, i.e. "beheaded babies"
israel has a long history of targeting civilians and lying about it, fuck them
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hello, is anyone in amerikkka concerned that we are going totally nazi
I'm definitely not worried at all about waking up a nazi. I am disturbed that more people aint handing down perpetual problems to their racist neighbors.
You have the power to create change for the betterment of the neighborhood with at least your words.
Drive the racist elements from the area.
You truly have the power to make life hell on a fool
Get a big bucket and fill it to the brim with cat pan mess over some weeks.
Take the bucket and throw it into Cooter's truck.
Go home and wait for the chance to defend yourself.
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Even if the hospital was Hamas, Israel doesn't deny bombing Palestinians who were trying to flee into Egypt.
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Idk what happened at the hospital.
I believe that neither side gives a shit about the people who got hurt.
Everyone out there doesn't like each other.
Idk what to do there.
Because everyone has bombs and rockets and missiles I'd probably just be trying to leave or trying to cool out in jail if possible
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Agreedwith most pf the above comments. The bigger picture is far more important at this point, as many commentators have been suggesting, Who's fault it is almost doesn't matter, in a twisted way.
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I just hope we don't loose any pals to this bronze age bullshit.
-ngnm
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At the same time, I don't think any of us can definitively say who bombed the hospital.
https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/israels-spin-about-hospital-massacre-quickly-comes-apart
there you go my brother, free feel to investigate to your heart's content, there is a wealth of information in there
electronic intifada, seems unbiased
Not denying the multiple statement changes, it just means one thing: We don't know yet.
There is an information war as usual and too many people believe rather than know, drawing conclusions way too fast. Especially with news like "according to Hamas" or "according to IDF". Both are regularly lying.
the most recent news are 10 to 50 deaths on the parking lot, no blast like a rocket would do, no building destroyed / most certainly a rocket failure / remaining fuel fire on the parking lot
until the next version
yes, that source is biased, it's coming from Palestinian people who are being genocided
i dont know where you are getting your news from, but MSM does not filter the lies of the fascist state of israel, rather they just barf it back up on the front pages for idiots to spin, i.e. "beheaded babies"
israel has a long history of targeting civilians and lying about it, fuck them
what is MSM ?
I usually/mainly get my news from France Info which is a rather independent (slightly left leaning) media channel but on heated topics like this one i try to read from multiple sources.
I hope you don't feel like i'm denying the sufferings of Palestinians or justifying war crimes. I'm just looking for truth and understanding of this complex situation.
France and Belgium have been hit by terrorists (a teacher and two swedish people have been killed by islamists following what's happening in middle east). we're on the same boat and there is a ticking bomb.
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The discussion over the hospital itself I suppose could be characterized as nuanced. And I think no matter your position on this, we should be open-minded to possibilities...
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67144061 (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67144061)
(https://i.ibb.co/JsZ0Zk0/IMG-0208.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JsZ0Zk0)
I'm really surprised no one has posted this:
From 2004
(https://i.redd.it/fmhqncjestub1.jpg)
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MSM is an acronym for "Main Stream Media" utilized by right wing kooks.
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MSM is an acronym for "Main Stream Media" utilized by right wing kooks.
it was in use, and still is, by the left well before the contemporary right rose to prominence in the discussion critical of anything mainstream. Phrases such as “sheeple” and “lame stream” were also co-opted by the right.
I feel this important to note as, often on the internet, and has been evidenced on this forum, when ever someone critiques the “mainstream” media, it’s assumed by US liberal or Democratic Party people whose political consciousness (and im not talking about you, Ed) was only recently developed via social media, that they’re in league with Jones, Shapiro, etc. Adbusters was a thing in the 80s. Battle in Seattle 1999. Occupy. Democracy Now! 1996. Redwood Summer. Earth First! And thats all mostly just domestic anti-capitalist, anti-oppression, and anti-mainstream media
Anyways, back to the topic at hand
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I hope you don't feel like i'm denying the sufferings of Palestinians or justifying war crimes.
i don't, but I also think people haven't investigated palestine/israeli history enough if they aren't a huge cynic of israeli/us propaganda
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hello, is anyone in amerikkka concerned that we are going totally nazi
I'm definitely not worried at all about waking up a nazi. I am disturbed that more people aint handing down perpetual problems to their racist neighbors.
You have the power to create change for the betterment of the neighborhood with at least your words.
Drive the racist elements from the area.
You truly have the power to make life hell on a fool
Get a big bucket and fill it to the brim with cat pan mess over some weeks.
Take the bucket and throw it into Cooter's truck.
Go home and wait for the chance to defend yourself.
being in jail doesn't help anyone - i would rather organize, debate and then come to a consensus if a cat should be adopted for such purposes
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Yeah, IUTSM, I debated writing "usually utilized". Well, clearly LVS isn't a kook of the right wing variety because he is criticizing Israel, but I personally wouldn't use termanology that has been co-opted by the right. As soon as someone in the know hears me using those keywords, they automatically assume I'm a conservative bootlicker. I care about that, but that's me. Kind of like how I wouldn't wear a t-shirt with The Punisher skull on it or scream out "Let's go, Brandon!" from the stands at my little cousin Brandon's soccer game, I'd be like, "C'mon, do this thing, Brandon!"
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i just used it because it's an acronym and didn't want to spell it out - sue me
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Yeah, IUTSM, I debated writing "usually utilized". Well, clearly LVS isn't a kook of the right wing variety because he is criticizing Israel, but I personally wouldn't use termanology that has been co-opted by the right. As soon as someone in the know hears me using those keywords, they automatically assume I'm a conservative bootlicker. I care about that, but that's me. Kind of like how I wouldn't wear a t-shirt with The Punisher skull on it or scream out "Let's go, Brandon!" from the stands at my little cousin Brandon's soccer game, I'd be like, "C'mon, do this thing, Brandon!"
I don’t disagree with you. I do however feel that the level of depth, again not speaking of you or anyone in this thread, concerning social and political awareness and interest in this online space is often akin to a litter box. Scratch the surface to get that which is most visible and easily attained
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also, if it isn't crystal clear: right wingers hate MSM because it isn't fascist enough, lefties hate it because it is fascist
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Well, clearly LVS isn't a kook of the right wing variety because he is criticizing Israel…
I’d say this viewpoint is quite North America/anglo Saxon perspective. In Germany there’s a big pro-palestinian/ anti-Israel right wing faction as well as a large left wing pro Israel faction. Maybe this also explains a different viewpoint on this conflict
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Well, clearly LVS isn't a kook of the right wing variety because he is criticizing Israel…
I’d say this viewpoint is quite North America/anglo Saxon perspective. In Germany there’s a big pro-palestinian/ anti-Israel right wing faction as well as a large left wing pro Israel faction. Maybe this also explains a different viewpoint on this conflict
It's worth considering that in the US, a large portion of the right are involved with some sort of Christian group, particularly the Evangelicals, and believe that the founding of Israel in 1948 was the answer to a biblical prophecy stating that Israel will be the place where Christ returns to earth.
These are the some of the same folks affiliated with literal American Nazi organizations. This is the largest religious voting block in the country, going to bible-believing churches; a group that believe the Bible as a literal document. So I would say that the same folks can be 100% anti-semetic but also 100% in support of Israel.
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Well, clearly LVS isn't a kook of the right wing variety because he is criticizing Israel…
I’d say this viewpoint is quite North America/anglo Saxon perspective. In Germany there’s a big pro-palestinian/ anti-Israel right wing faction as well as a large left wing pro Israel faction. Maybe this also explains a different viewpoint on this conflict
It's worth considering that in the US, a large portion of the right are involved with some sort of Christian group, particularly the Evangelicals, and believe that the founding of Israel in 1948 was the answer to a biblical prophecy stating that Israel will be the place where Christ returns to earth.
These are the some of the same folks affiliated with literal American Nazi organizations. This is the largest religious voting block in the country, going to bible-believing churches; a group that believe the Bible as a literal document. So I would say that the same folks can be 100% anti-semetic but also 100% in support of Israel.
I totally agree here with what you say.
What I am trying to say , is that our cultural surroundings may very much shape us, how we approach this situation. Me having a grandfather, who was literally involved in killing 6 million Jews, might lead to having a different view on things than growing up in a country, who was involved in other atrocities, which may have informed north americans when growing up. We all are so involved in our own perception, that we fail so see the other side’s points.
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Worth a watch,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4idQbwsvtUo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4idQbwsvtUo)
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The guest certainly knows how to play Piers's stupid game. He came in knowing any interview with Piers would be a circus and he made it a complete circus.
The co-founder of the Daily Caller gives off really bad vibes. It was interesting that he was calling for complete destruction right after Piers was asking about "Where is the Nelson Mandela figure?" Yes, where is the Nelson Mandela figure when the Daily Caller guy is calling for outright destruction?
Finally, as a non-religious person, how do religious people look at this whole situation and say, "Yes, God exists and this is his will. This is what God's love brings. Please keep killing to own a piece of land where some guy once put on a magic show."? I know this conflict is more than just religion, but how to do ultra religious people do this kind of shit and say it is their beautiful merciful God's will. Where is that moral compass I hear so much about and how God directs people to do the right thing?
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The guest certainly knows how to play Piers's stupid game. He came in knowing any interview with Piers would be a circus and he made it a complete circus.
The co-founder of the Daily Caller gives off really bad vibes. It was interesting that he was calling for complete destruction right after Piers was asking about "Where is the Nelson Mandela figure?" Yes, where is the Nelson Mandela figure when the Daily Caller guy is calling for outright destruction?
Finally, as a non-religious person, how do religious people look at this whole situation and say, "Yes, God exists and this is his will. This is what God's love brings. Please keep killing to own a piece of land where some guy once put on a magic show."? I know this conflict is more than just religion, but how to do ultra religious people do this kind of shit and say it is their beautiful merciful God's will. Where is that moral compass I hear so much about and how God directs people to do the right thing?
Preach.
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If you want to hold Israel accountable for war crimes, you must be an anti-Semite:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/19/israel-accuses-bbc-of-modern-blood-libel-over-reporting-of-hospital-strike
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The guest certainly knows how to play Piers's stupid game. He came in knowing any interview with Piers would be a circus and he made it a complete circus.
The co-founder of the Daily Caller gives off really bad vibes. It was interesting that he was calling for complete destruction right after Piers was asking about "Where is the Nelson Mandela figure?" Yes, where is the Nelson Mandela figure when the Daily Caller guy is calling for outright destruction?
Finally, as a non-religious person, how do religious people look at this whole situation and say, "Yes, God exists and this is his will. This is what God's love brings. Please keep killing to own a piece of land where some guy once put on a magic show."? I know this conflict is more than just religion, but how to do ultra religious people do this kind of shit and say it is their beautiful merciful God's will. Where is that moral compass I hear so much about and how God directs people to do the right thing?
They’re into the Old Testament. Fire and Brimstone. My FIL is a methodist carpenter, seeks to live like Christ through love and charity. His BIL is a fundamentalist who believes that his god punishes sinners and rewards followers.
Two takes on the faith
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god gave man free will thats why you werent supposed to eat the apple. it's basically the opening hammer in the bible. there's also a bunch of war in the bible too. you should do a basic engagement with the work before critiquing it.
im pretty sure that would apply for this topic as well... why bring religion into this lmao
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god gave man free will thats why you werent supposed to eat the apple. it's basically the opening hammer in the bible. there's also a bunch of war in the bible too. you should do a basic engagement with the work before critiquing it.
im pretty sure that would apply for this topic as well... why bring religion into this lmao
You don’t think religion is a factor in this conflict? Interesting take indeed.
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Reynolds eats fruit
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god gave man free will thats why you werent supposed to eat the apple. it's basically the opening hammer in the bible. there's also a bunch of war in the bible too. you should do a basic engagement with the work before critiquing it.
im pretty sure that would apply for this topic as well... why bring religion into this lmao
You don’t think religion is a factor in this conflict? Interesting take indeed.
Religion is an aggravating factor and Zionism was a result of persecution of Jews around the world. The actual conflict between Israel and Palestine is less about religion than settler-colonialism. Israel has deliberately propped up Islamic groups like Hamas because it is an easier sell to the West that they are the moral party when facing Muslim extremists rather than a secular movement or one that is more religiously moderate. Israel stepped up rhetoric and aggression afterwards but it is not like they were not doing all the same stuff before Hamas controlled the local government in Gaza. Things like Operation Cast Thy Bread, or the future Agricultural Minister Aharon Zisling saying during the Nakba that "Let us say that instances of rape occurred in Ramle. I can forgive instances of rape, but I will not forgive other acts" make it clear that Israel was formed with war crimes. These were the kinds of things Israel denied for decades until Haaretz published articles with documents backing up the information. These are the people that would form the government, members of Irgun and Lehi, and they are celebrated for resisting colonial powers. Until Israel can be honest with how the country was formed it is hard to even have a conversation. Israeli law prohibits people from even talking about the Nakba. They also spend a lot of effort combating any kind of movements to encourage boycotts, divestment, and sanctions. These are some of the only peaceful tools of resistance that have any effect. It is a deliberate tactic to remove peaceful means of protest so that when inevitably violence happens it can be painted as some sort of inherent hate all Arabs have for Jews. Israel's minister of national security Ben-Gvir has even been charged with inciting racism and supporting terrorist groups by Israel but managed to end up in that position of power. It is always escalation and that comes in the same way when responding to attacks, it has never been proportional force. Look at the civilian deaths in the 2014 Gaza war, nearly 1500 Palestinian civilians were killed, less than 10 Israeli civilians were killed. The world has looked away for decades as an apartheid state exists because it is convenient to have a "democracy" in the Middle East. The UN has condemned Israel over 120 times in the last 8 years alone, before this current war, and not once have they ever faced any repercussions.
The idea that this area has always existed in a state where neighbors were at each others throats over religion is not true but gets pushed around a lot in the West. In real life I am tired of arguing with people who have such entrenched views and have very little understanding of any real history of the area and conflict. I have too many friends who's families will be devastated by this and I can not really be objective. I understand the people who are too close to the situation and get overly hyperbolic but I'm having a hard time with accepting how much of that is coming from people with no real connection or understanding. It is a really bad precedent if any criticism of Israel or Zionism automatically makes someone anti-Semitic without any discussion, but it is also true that there is a lot of things that are blatantly anti-Semitic and false that are being thrown around in discussions lately. Jewish people have suffered as much as any group in history, it has been wide spread and brutal over their entire history. They have also been responsible for some of the strongest support for human rights and equality often before public perception caught up with the causes. It is important to also note that not all Israeli Jews support the treatment Palestinians have received. Arabs generally and Muslims specifically have never had fair representation in the West, orientalists laid the foundation for many misunderstanding that are still just said without a second thought. We are in such a bad spot all around right now and I am not hopeful.
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The discussion over the hospital itself I suppose could be characterized as nuanced. And I think no matter your position on this, we should be open-minded to possibilities...
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67144061 (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67144061)
(https://i.ibb.co/JsZ0Zk0/IMG-0208.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JsZ0Zk0)
Factor of 20? How many people were killed and where are you getting that number?
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Is anyone still pretending that there are two sides to this active genocide?
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/world/at-least-500-killed-in-israeli-airstrike-on-gaza-city-hospital-health-ministry-says
This headline did not age well as it looks likely to be a failed rocket from a Palestinian Islamic jihad attack that hit the hospital parking lot. There is video from Al Jazeera live showing the rockets firing and you can see one fizzle out with a ground explosion shortly afterwards. The crater is also not typical of an air strike. Thankfully the hospital was not hit.
I’m not trying to be a dick or stir things up but I don’t see a genocide. Call it a drawn out war/land grab/unjust displacement, etc… but it’s not genocide. I am not an Israeli defender by any means, but realistically, if Israel wanted to, they could wipe out the Palestinians overnight, which they are not doing.
Hopefully the Israeli government can get their heads out of their ass, show more restraint and figure out a way to de-escalate things before more innocent civilians needlessly suffer or die. Sadly, I’m not optimistic about peace in this region :(
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From the UN convention on genocide after WW2
Genocide is the intentional destruction of a people[a] in whole or in part. In 1948, the United Nations Genocide Convention defined genocide as any of five "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group". These five acts were: killing members of the group, causing them serious bodily or mental harm, imposing living conditions intended to destroy the group, preventing births, and forcibly transferring children out of the group. Victims are targeted because of their real or perceived membership of a group, not randomly.
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god gave man free will thats why you werent supposed to eat the apple. it's basically the opening hammer in the bible. there's also a bunch of war in the bible too. you should do a basic engagement with the work before critiquing it.
im pretty sure that would apply for this topic as well... why bring religion into this lmao
You don’t think religion is a factor in this conflict? Interesting take indeed.
Religion is an aggravating factor and Zionism was a result of persecution of Jews around the world. The actual conflict between Israel and Palestine is less about religion than settler-colonialism. Israel has deliberately propped up Islamic groups like Hamas because it is an easier sell to the West that they are the moral party when facing Muslim extremists rather than a secular movement or one that is more religiously moderate. Israel stepped up rhetoric and aggression afterwards but it is not like they were not doing all the same stuff before Hamas controlled the local government in Gaza. Things like Operation Cast Thy Bread, or the future Agricultural Minister Aharon Zisling saying during the Nakba that "Let us say that instances of rape occurred in Ramle. I can forgive instances of rape, but I will not forgive other acts" make it clear that Israel was formed with war crimes. These were the kinds of things Israel denied for decades until Haaretz published articles with documents backing up the information. These are the people that would form the government, members of Irgun and Lehi, and they are celebrated for resisting colonial powers. Until Israel can be honest with how the country was formed it is hard to even have a conversation. Israeli law prohibits people from even talking about the Nakba. They also spend a lot of effort combating any kind of movements to encourage boycotts, divestment, and sanctions. These are some of the only peaceful tools of resistance that have any effect. It is a deliberate tactic to remove peaceful means of protest so that when inevitably violence happens it can be painted as some sort of inherent hate all Arabs have for Jews. Israel's minister of national security Ben-Gvir has even been charged with inciting racism and supporting terrorist groups by Israel but managed to end up in that position of power. It is always escalation and that comes in the same way when responding to attacks, it has never been proportional force. Look at the civilian deaths in the 2014 Gaza war, nearly 1500 Palestinian civilians were killed, less than 10 Israeli civilians were killed. The world has looked away for decades as an apartheid state exists because it is convenient to have a "democracy" in the Middle East. The UN has condemned Israel over 120 times in the last 8 years alone, before this current war, and not once have they ever faced any repercussions.
The idea that this area has always existed in a state where neighbors were at each others throats over religion is not true but gets pushed around a lot in the West. In real life I am tired of arguing with people who have such entrenched views and have very little understanding of any real history of the area and conflict. I have too many friends who's families will be devastated by this and I can not really be objective. I understand the people who are too close to the situation and get overly hyperbolic but I'm having a hard time with accepting how much of that is coming from people with no real connection or understanding. It is a really bad precedent if any criticism of Israel or Zionism automatically makes someone anti-Semitic without any discussion, but it is also true that there is a lot of things that are blatantly anti-Semitic and false that are being thrown around in discussions lately. Jewish people have suffered as much as any group in history, it has been wide spread and brutal over their entire history. They have also been responsible for some of the strongest support for human rights and equality often before public perception caught up with the causes. It is important to also note that not all Israeli Jews support the treatment Palestinians have received. Arabs generally and Muslims specifically have never had fair representation in the West, orientalists laid the foundation for many misunderstanding that are still just said without a second thought. We are in such a bad spot all around right now and I am not hopeful.
thanks for this informative and nuanced post.
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MSM is an acronym for "Main Stream Media" utilized by right wing kooks.
Never go full person
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god gave man free will thats why you werent supposed to eat the apple. it's basically the opening hammer in the bible. there's also a bunch of war in the bible too. you should do a basic engagement with the work before critiquing it.
im pretty sure that would apply for this topic as well... why bring religion into this lmao
You don’t think religion is a factor in this conflict? Interesting take indeed.
Religion is an aggravating factor and Zionism was a result of persecution of Jews around the world. The actual conflict between Israel and Palestine is less about religion than settler-colonialism. Israel has deliberately propped up Islamic groups like Hamas because it is an easier sell to the West that they are the moral party when facing Muslim extremists rather than a secular movement or one that is more religiously moderate. Israel stepped up rhetoric and aggression afterwards but it is not like they were not doing all the same stuff before Hamas controlled the local government in Gaza. Things like Operation Cast Thy Bread, or the future Agricultural Minister Aharon Zisling saying during the Nakba that "Let us say that instances of rape occurred in Ramle. I can forgive instances of rape, but I will not forgive other acts" make it clear that Israel was formed with war crimes. These were the kinds of things Israel denied for decades until Haaretz published articles with documents backing up the information. These are the people that would form the government, members of Irgun and Lehi, and they are celebrated for resisting colonial powers. Until Israel can be honest with how the country was formed it is hard to even have a conversation. Israeli law prohibits people from even talking about the Nakba. They also spend a lot of effort combating any kind of movements to encourage boycotts, divestment, and sanctions. These are some of the only peaceful tools of resistance that have any effect. It is a deliberate tactic to remove peaceful means of protest so that when inevitably violence happens it can be painted as some sort of inherent hate all Arabs have for Jews. Israel's minister of national security Ben-Gvir has even been charged with inciting racism and supporting terrorist groups by Israel but managed to end up in that position of power. It is always escalation and that comes in the same way when responding to attacks, it has never been proportional force. Look at the civilian deaths in the 2014 Gaza war, nearly 1500 Palestinian civilians were killed, less than 10 Israeli civilians were killed. The world has looked away for decades as an apartheid state exists because it is convenient to have a "democracy" in the Middle East. The UN has condemned Israel over 120 times in the last 8 years alone, before this current war, and not once have they ever faced any repercussions.
The idea that this area has always existed in a state where neighbors were at each others throats over religion is not true but gets pushed around a lot in the West. In real life I am tired of arguing with people who have such entrenched views and have very little understanding of any real history of the area and conflict. I have too many friends who's families will be devastated by this and I can not really be objective. I understand the people who are too close to the situation and get overly hyperbolic but I'm having a hard time with accepting how much of that is coming from people with no real connection or understanding. It is a really bad precedent if any criticism of Israel or Zionism automatically makes someone anti-Semitic without any discussion, but it is also true that there is a lot of things that are blatantly anti-Semitic and false that are being thrown around in discussions lately. Jewish people have suffered as much as any group in history, it has been wide spread and brutal over their entire history. They have also been responsible for some of the strongest support for human rights and equality often before public perception caught up with the causes. It is important to also note that not all Israeli Jews support the treatment Palestinians have received. Arabs generally and Muslims specifically have never had fair representation in the West, orientalists laid the foundation for many misunderstanding that are still just said without a second thought. We are in such a bad spot all around right now and I am not hopeful.
Oh, sorry you had to type all that, I obviously know it’s about religion, was just suprised someone legitimately thought otherwise.
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read the second sentence they typed, then smash your head into a wall
“The actual conflict between Israel and Palestine is less about religion than settler-colonialism. a direct byproduct of religion”
Good point. Explain more why the “zionists” and the “jihadi” are fighting over the “promised land”. Amazing neither side has let religion creep in as a cause for their actions for the first time in them doing literally anything.
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read the second sentence they typed, then smash your head into a wall
Read about the history of Zionism, they were being oppressed in other parts of the world and decided the best course of action was a Jewish state somewhere in the world, eventually rallying around the religious holy land. Many of early Zionist leaders of thought were secular Jews. The idea of it needing to be in Israel came from Christian Zionism, which predates Herzl. The early movement had next to nothing to do with particular religious beliefs and was about the preservation of Jews as a people. All of the religious extremism came later and secondary to the issue of taking land. You can try to be snide but you offer no explanation other than the same nonsense that has been pushed for decades that flattens the issue to the most basic empty analysis, religion is bad and makes everyone hate each other. Before Zionist movements gained ground less than 15% of what is now Israel was Jewish. That is the highest percentage for at least a few hundred years. That 15% figure holds up until the early 30's. By 1948 they were 32% of the population, and after the Nakba in 1949 they were 82% of the population because they killed or forced the evacuation of over 700,000 people. That is settler-colonialism, because you fled persecution in other parts of the world you don't get to take over an area with indigenous people on the land then claim it was all because they hate your religion. This argument is used to de-legitimize the valid complaints of Palestinians. You are doing the same thing the West has done forever, you are simplifying the conflict down to elements that come after the actual issue. It is a way to make it about Muslim vs Jewish and ignore the whole stolen land part.
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I think spectral is agreeing with you here salad
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I think spectral is agreeing with you here salad
Thanks for pointing that out, I meant to respond to newphone saying settler-colonialism not being a factor. Apologies Spectral.
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read the second sentence they typed, then smash your head into a wall
Read about the history of Zionism, they were being oppressed in other parts of the world and decided the best course of action was a Jewish state somewhere in the world, eventually rallying around the religious holy land. Many of early Zionist leaders of thought were secular Jews. The idea of it needing to be in Israel came from Christian Zionism, which predates Herzl. The early movement had next to nothing to do with particular religious beliefs and was about the preservation of Jews as a people. All of the religious extremism came later and secondary to the issue of taking land. You can try to be snide but you offer no explanation other than the same nonsense that has been pushed for decades that flattens the issue to the most basic empty analysis, religion is bad and makes everyone hate each other. Before Zionist movements gained ground less than 15% of what is now Israel was Jewish. That is the highest percentage for at least a few hundred years. That 15% figure holds up until the early 30's. By 1948 they were 32% of the population, and after the Nakba in 1949 they were 82% of the population because they killed or forced the evacuation of over 700,000 people. That is settler-colonialism, because you fled persecution in other parts of the world you don't get to take over an area with indigenous people on the land then claim it was all because they hate your religion. This argument is used to de-legitimize the valid complaints of Palestinians. You are doing the same thing the West has done forever, you are simplifying the conflict down to elements that come after the actual issue. It is a way to make it about Muslim vs Jewish and ignore the whole stolen land part.
Yeah, the west and I are making this about Muslim vs Jewish. Do you hear yourself?
You can say that religion is not the only factor, or that it’s an oversimplification but come the fuck on.
Why were the Jews being persecuted other places? Why did the original settlers of the US come? Why were they being persecuted? What did they try to convince the natives of first fucking thing?
It’s all religions and the fact that they are incongruous fairy tales makes it hard for people to cohabitate if they actually believe them with any conviction. Let alone the ones that tell you to actually kill the other.
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read the second sentence they typed, then smash your head into a wall
Read about the history of Zionism, they were being oppressed in other parts of the world and decided the best course of action was a Jewish state somewhere in the world, eventually rallying around the religious holy land. Many of early Zionist leaders of thought were secular Jews. The idea of it needing to be in Israel came from Christian Zionism, which predates Herzl. The early movement had next to nothing to do with particular religious beliefs and was about the preservation of Jews as a people. All of the religious extremism came later and secondary to the issue of taking land. You can try to be snide but you offer no explanation other than the same nonsense that has been pushed for decades that flattens the issue to the most basic empty analysis, religion is bad and makes everyone hate each other. Before Zionist movements gained ground less than 15% of what is now Israel was Jewish. That is the highest percentage for at least a few hundred years. That 15% figure holds up until the early 30's. By 1948 they were 32% of the population, and after the Nakba in 1949 they were 82% of the population because they killed or forced the evacuation of over 700,000 people. That is settler-colonialism, because you fled persecution in other parts of the world you don't get to take over an area with indigenous people on the land then claim it was all because they hate your religion. This argument is used to de-legitimize the valid complaints of Palestinians. You are doing the same thing the West has done forever, you are simplifying the conflict down to elements that come after the actual issue. It is a way to make it about Muslim vs Jewish and ignore the whole stolen land part.
Yeah, the west and I are making this about Muslim vs Jewish. Do you hear yourself?
You can say that religion is not the only factor, or that it’s an oversimplification but come the fuck on.
Why were the Jews being persecuted other places? Why did the original settlers of the US come? Why were they being persecuted? What did they try to convince the natives of first fucking thing?
It’s all religions and the fact that they are incongruous fairy tales makes it hard for people to cohabitate if they actually believe them with any conviction. Let alone the ones that tell you to actually kill the other.
Except that Muslims and Jews did live in relative peace for long periods of time under Ottoman rule. With a Jewish population of less than 15% you would think that the blood thirsty Muslims would have wiped them out if this idea that Muslims and Arabs historically have been hell bent on the destruction of the Jewish people were true.
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read the second sentence they typed, then smash your head into a wall
Read about the history of Zionism, they were being oppressed in other parts of the world and decided the best course of action was a Jewish state somewhere in the world, eventually rallying around the religious holy land. Many of early Zionist leaders of thought were secular Jews. The idea of it needing to be in Israel came from Christian Zionism, which predates Herzl. The early movement had next to nothing to do with particular religious beliefs and was about the preservation of Jews as a people. All of the religious extremism came later and secondary to the issue of taking land. You can try to be snide but you offer no explanation other than the same nonsense that has been pushed for decades that flattens the issue to the most basic empty analysis, religion is bad and makes everyone hate each other. Before Zionist movements gained ground less than 15% of what is now Israel was Jewish. That is the highest percentage for at least a few hundred years. That 15% figure holds up until the early 30's. By 1948 they were 32% of the population, and after the Nakba in 1949 they were 82% of the population because they killed or forced the evacuation of over 700,000 people. That is settler-colonialism, because you fled persecution in other parts of the world you don't get to take over an area with indigenous people on the land then claim it was all because they hate your religion. This argument is used to de-legitimize the valid complaints of Palestinians. You are doing the same thing the West has done forever, you are simplifying the conflict down to elements that come after the actual issue. It is a way to make it about Muslim vs Jewish and ignore the whole stolen land part.
Yeah, the west and I are making this about Muslim vs Jewish. Do you hear yourself?
You can say that religion is not the only factor, or that it’s an oversimplification but come the fuck on.
Why were the Jews being persecuted other places? Why did the original settlers of the US come? Why were they being persecuted? What did they try to convince the natives of first fucking thing?
It’s all religions and the fact that they are incongruous fairy tales makes it hard for people to cohabitate if they actually believe them with any conviction. Let alone the ones that tell you to actually kill the other.
Except that Muslims and Jews did live in relative peace for long periods of time under Ottoman rule. With a Jewish population of less than 15% you would think that the blood thirsty Muslims would have wiped them out if this idea that Muslims and Arabs historically have been hell bent on the destruction of the Jewish people were true.
Yeah and Lincoln represented the republicans, so now we apply that to our understanding of modern republicans and…
The ottomans were massacring Christians at the time for being Christian. The Muslims had at one time earlier annihilated 1/3 of the worlds Jews.
Religious groups do single out and slaughter other religious groups. It’s real, I’m not making it up, and it’s a major factor in what’s going on obviously. Why some of you have such trouble calling out religions role is mystifying.
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read the second sentence they typed, then smash your head into a wall
Read about the history of Zionism, they were being oppressed in other parts of the world and decided the best course of action was a Jewish state somewhere in the world, eventually rallying around the religious holy land. Many of early Zionist leaders of thought were secular Jews. The idea of it needing to be in Israel came from Christian Zionism, which predates Herzl. The early movement had next to nothing to do with particular religious beliefs and was about the preservation of Jews as a people. All of the religious extremism came later and secondary to the issue of taking land. You can try to be snide but you offer no explanation other than the same nonsense that has been pushed for decades that flattens the issue to the most basic empty analysis, religion is bad and makes everyone hate each other. Before Zionist movements gained ground less than 15% of what is now Israel was Jewish. That is the highest percentage for at least a few hundred years. That 15% figure holds up until the early 30's. By 1948 they were 32% of the population, and after the Nakba in 1949 they were 82% of the population because they killed or forced the evacuation of over 700,000 people. That is settler-colonialism, because you fled persecution in other parts of the world you don't get to take over an area with indigenous people on the land then claim it was all because they hate your religion. This argument is used to de-legitimize the valid complaints of Palestinians. You are doing the same thing the West has done forever, you are simplifying the conflict down to elements that come after the actual issue. It is a way to make it about Muslim vs Jewish and ignore the whole stolen land part.
Yeah, the west and I are making this about Muslim vs Jewish. Do you hear yourself?
You can say that religion is not the only factor, or that it’s an oversimplification but come the fuck on.
Why were the Jews being persecuted other places? Why did the original settlers of the US come? Why were they being persecuted? What did they try to convince the natives of first fucking thing?
It’s all religions and the fact that they are incongruous fairy tales makes it hard for people to cohabitate if they actually believe them with any conviction. Let alone the ones that tell you to actually kill the other.
Except that Muslims and Jews did live in relative peace for long periods of time under Ottoman rule. With a Jewish population of less than 15% you would think that the blood thirsty Muslims would have wiped them out if this idea that Muslims and Arabs historically have been hell bent on the destruction of the Jewish people were true.
Yeah and Lincoln represented the republicans, so now we apply that to our understanding of modern republicans and…
The ottomans were massacring Christians at the time for being Christian. The Muslims had at one time earlier annihilated 1/3 of the worlds Jews.
Religious groups do single out and slaughter other religious groups. It’s real, I’m not making it up, and it’s a major factor in what’s going on obviously. Why some of you have such trouble calling out religions role is mystifying.
I would like to see some source for Muslims killing 1/3 of the worlds Jewish population, or which particular time period and place you are talking about this happening. Maybe I have a huge blind spot but those kind of numbers aren't matching up to anything I know of. No one is denying that religion causes conflict and has been responsible for a lot of problems through history. No one is denying that religion is used to justify horrible things, including in the Israel-Palestine conflict but that is not what the original sin is here.
I explained to you why Israel has chosen to frame things as a religious dispute and why the West is happy to buy into that and ignore that the main concern of Palestinians has always been to have a return to their homeland they were forced out of. Nothing about wanting an Islamic state or the destruction of Jews, or even Israel on religious grounds. That is a moral argument that Israel will never win, so they boosted extremist voices and stopped seriously negotiating with more moderate factions. They set the conditions so that inevitably the more extreme groups they propped up say some wild hard line shit and Israel can walk away from the table. Hamas was halfway willing to recognize Israel as a nation but Israel was unwilling to meet halfway and Hamas backtracked. They are religious but they aren't some simple minded group blinded by only religion, they have tried using political and at times have been open to pragmatism over fundamentalism. Never mind that Israel has extremists even by their own standards in government but they get the benefit of doubt as a country because hey we are a "democracy" at least. You are buying exactly what they are selling but I'm not really sure what your beliefs about the situation are except and I'm half joking here, that everyone involved is dumb because they believe in religion.
This idea of all sides are equal and everyone is terrible so I don't need to care sucks and is lazy, I'm not sure if that is the case with you or not but I hear that kind of logic a lot on different issues. I also understand it as a natural feeling when there is an overload of information and conflicting ideas, and just feeling helpless to it all but I would hope we try to understand even if we fail to. I won't go back and forth anymore because I think we will just keep going in circles and ultimately whether or not religion is the main factor or one tool to be cynically used within the larger context, the current situation is what it is and dire. I would still like to hear about when Muslims killed 1/3 of the worlds Jewish population though. If you have friends or family effected by the situation I hope they remain safe.
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read the second sentence they typed, then smash your head into a wall
Read about the history of Zionism, they were being oppressed in other parts of the world and decided the best course of action was a Jewish state somewhere in the world, eventually rallying around the religious holy land. Many of early Zionist leaders of thought were secular Jews. The idea of it needing to be in Israel came from Christian Zionism, which predates Herzl. The early movement had next to nothing to do with particular religious beliefs and was about the preservation of Jews as a people. All of the religious extremism came later and secondary to the issue of taking land. You can try to be snide but you offer no explanation other than the same nonsense that has been pushed for decades that flattens the issue to the most basic empty analysis, religion is bad and makes everyone hate each other. Before Zionist movements gained ground less than 15% of what is now Israel was Jewish. That is the highest percentage for at least a few hundred years. That 15% figure holds up until the early 30's. By 1948 they were 32% of the population, and after the Nakba in 1949 they were 82% of the population because they killed or forced the evacuation of over 700,000 people. That is settler-colonialism, because you fled persecution in other parts of the world you don't get to take over an area with indigenous people on the land then claim it was all because they hate your religion. This argument is used to de-legitimize the valid complaints of Palestinians. You are doing the same thing the West has done forever, you are simplifying the conflict down to elements that come after the actual issue. It is a way to make it about Muslim vs Jewish and ignore the whole stolen land part.
Yeah, the west and I are making this about Muslim vs Jewish. Do you hear yourself?
You can say that religion is not the only factor, or that it’s an oversimplification but come the fuck on.
Why were the Jews being persecuted other places? Why did the original settlers of the US come? Why were they being persecuted? What did they try to convince the natives of first fucking thing?
It’s all religions and the fact that they are incongruous fairy tales makes it hard for people to cohabitate if they actually believe them with any conviction. Let alone the ones that tell you to actually kill the other.
Except that Muslims and Jews did live in relative peace for long periods of time under Ottoman rule. With a Jewish population of less than 15% you would think that the blood thirsty Muslims would have wiped them out if this idea that Muslims and Arabs historically have been hell bent on the destruction of the Jewish people were true.
Yeah and Lincoln represented the republicans, so now we apply that to our understanding of modern republicans and…
The ottomans were massacring Christians at the time for being Christian. The Muslims had at one time earlier annihilated 1/3 of the worlds Jews.
Religious groups do single out and slaughter other religious groups. It’s real, I’m not making it up, and it’s a major factor in what’s going on obviously. Why some of you have such trouble calling out religions role is mystifying.
I would like to see some source for Muslims killing 1/3 of the worlds Jewish population, or which particular time period and place you are talking about this happening. Maybe I have a huge blind spot but those kind of numbers aren't matching up to anything I know of. No one is denying that religion causes conflict and has been responsible for a lot of problems through history. No one is denying that religion is used to justify horrible things, including in the Israel-Palestine conflict but that is not what the original sin is here.
I explained to you why Israel has chosen to frame things as a religious dispute and why the West is happy to buy into that and ignore that the main concern of Palestinians has always been to have a return to their homeland they were forced out of. Nothing about wanting an Islamic state or the destruction of Jews, or even Israel on religious grounds. That is a moral argument that Israel will never win, so they boosted extremist voices and stopped seriously negotiating with more moderate factions. They set the conditions so that inevitably the more extreme groups they propped up say some wild hard line shit and Israel can walk away from the table. Hamas was halfway willing to recognize Israel as a nation but Israel was unwilling to meet halfway and Hamas backtracked. They are religious but they aren't some simple minded group blinded by only religion, they have tried using political and at times have been open to pragmatism over fundamentalism. Never mind that Israel has extremists even by their own standards in government but they get the benefit of doubt as a country because hey we are a "democracy" at least. You are buying exactly what they are selling but I'm not really sure what your beliefs about the situation are except and I'm half joking here, that everyone involved is dumb because they believe in religion.
This idea of all sides are equal and everyone is terrible so I don't need to care sucks and is lazy, I'm not sure if that is the case with you or not but I hear that kind of logic a lot on different issues. I also understand it as a natural feeling when there is an overload of information and conflicting ideas, and just feeling helpless to it all but I would hope we try to understand even if we fail to. I won't go back and forth anymore because I think we will just keep going in circles and ultimately whether or not religion is the main factor or one tool to be cynically used within the larger context, the current situation is what it is and dire. I would still like to hear about when Muslims killed 1/3 of the worlds Jewish population though. If you have friends or family effected by the situation I hope they remain safe.
I thought I read that during the Middle Ages durring the caliphates but I’m probably mistaken (an embarrassing overstatement if so). I’m certainly no expert on the numbers, but what number do you have for people killed in the name of Islam? Is it too many?
I don’t think I said “all sides are equal” Islam is clearly a more dangerous world view or religion if followed dogmatically, than any other religion I am aware of, though all unproveable worldviews or religions can (most have) been used to justify killing of the other.
There are obviously other factors but I personally think speaking up against religion and religious killing is a pretty good place to start. I only starting do so in this thread when someone suggested that it wasn’t a factor at all.
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I hate to agree with Friedman, but the narrative he lays out in his opinion article on why Israel needs to not completely destroy Gaza has a logical flow. There are lots of moral reasons not do so, but the practical reasons might convince those seeking revenge to think twice.
"In the first week of this conflict, the supreme leader of Iran and Hassan Nasrallah, the leader of the Hezbollah militia in Lebanon, appeared to be keeping very tight control of their militiamen on the border with Israel and in Iraq, Syria and Yemen. But as the second week has gone on, U.S. officials have picked up increasing signs that both leaders are letting their forces more aggressively attack Israeli targets and that they might attack American targets if the United States intervenes. They smell the logic of how much an Israeli invasion of Gaza could help their goal of driving America out of the whole region."
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/19/opinion/biden-speech-israel-gaza.html
My understanding is that reaction of Israel's neighbors in the region to the USA's, Canada's, and generally the West's blind support for Israel did not go over well. I'm a bit annoyed that our initial reaction was as strong as it was, but I think Biden's team did the right thing getting him over there to meet with Israel and tell them to think about the dramatic repercussions that could come from destroying the homes of 2 million as an act of revenge for 1200. We already have a significant fracture line between us and the rest of the world with Ukraine (as much of the non-western world doesn't give a shit either way) and we have a bad history exploiting/meddling in Africa, Latin America, the Middle-East and basically everywhere. We've done some good, but we've done a lot of bad and casting the west as racist villains is not hard to do.
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Just wanted to say thank you to all those who support Palestinian rights and freedoms.
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Friendship ended with Ukraine and Russia
Now Israel vs. Palestine is my best friend
Seriously though I am in no way qualified or educated enough to have a deep discussion about this but I know enough that this was bound to happen and am surprised it hasn’t sooner. Palestinians have been basically living in an open air prison for decades, have had food, water, electricity constantly cut off on top of civilians being targeted and killed by IDF snipers, while Israeli citizens watch and cheer on…it sickens me that there’s 24/7 coverage of this all over the news only now that they’re the ones being attacked.
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One of the better run downs I've read on the current situation here..
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1716532694564127072.html
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4idQbwsvtUo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4idQbwsvtUo)
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Claiming it all ends with us boots on the ground and the dismantling of Iran
You heard it here first
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Not going to engage the supremely misinformed views here on history-- but folks do basic research. Salad in particular seems to make and repeat "statements" read on social media with no citations. I would propose going forward in this thread every poster posts a legitimate source for their statements-- or any source even if not legitimate! Aside from theories repeated around the camp fire. All that does is create us versus them sports mentality. Read for yourself history.
Why dont we follow history of one of three main cities jews were allowed by ottomans to live in during ottoman occupation of the middle east and portions of Europe. Feel free to check Wikipedia citations, but in general they are pro-palestinian and muslim point of view, and these articles appear relatively fact checked. Would love any counter citations.
Hebron:
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1517_Hebron_attacks
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Hebron
Tsfat: (aka Safed)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1517_Safed_attacks
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1660_destruction_of_Safed
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1834_looting_of_Safed
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1838_Druze_attack_on_Safed
Bonus: Pre-modern zionist state but modern period attack- with pictures for the folks on here who seem to enjoy such things:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Palestine_riots
Tiberius:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1660_destruction_of_Tiberias
I can post many more examples-- but in particular wanted to focus on the request for evidence of destruction of pre modern zionist but modern Jewish communications in the land of Israel.
For sure, Jews also migrated from places like Portugal, Spain and N. Africa to Ottoman Empire in 1400s, so the situation is of course complex. Here is some well cited work on persecution of Jews in North Africa and destruction of their communities (not attributed to ottomans, and in fact resulting in North African jews relocating to Ottoman territory)
https://books.google.com/books?id=9txi3xuuENcC&pg=PA25#v=onepage&q&f=false
To clarify- not meant as an attack on any specific other community in the middle east. Here is evidence from earlier periods of Crusader destruction of jewish cities. In Jerusalem, Haifa and elsewhere, entire communities were slaughtered.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_and_the_Crusades
Peace and love to all human beings! Just think before you adopt a sports mentality when you may not really fully understand the situation.
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Every day, I think to myself this can't get any worse... History is important. History is what's happening. But this slaughter in Gaza has to fucking stop. There's no victory for anyone here.
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Free Palestine.
Israel is committing a genocide and our shameful government is backing it to the hilt. Disgusting
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One of the better run downs I've read on the current situation here..
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1716532694564127072.html
This was a really great read. Digestible explanation of what’s at stake for who and why certain parties may do or not do certain things.
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Not going to engage the supremely misinformed views here on history-- but folks do basic research. Salad in particular seems to make and repeat "statements" read on social media with no citations. I would propose going forward in this thread every poster posts a legitimate source for their statements-- or any source even if not legitimate! Aside from theories repeated around the camp fire. All that does is create us versus them sports mentality. Read for yourself history.
Why dont we follow history of one of three main cities jews were allowed by ottomans to live in during ottoman occupation of the middle east and portions of Europe. Feel free to check Wikipedia citations, but in general they are pro-palestinian and muslim point of view, and these articles appear relatively fact checked. Would love any counter citations.
Hebron:
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1517_Hebron_attacks
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Hebron
Tsfat: (aka Safed)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1517_Safed_attacks
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1660_destruction_of_Safed
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1834_looting_of_Safed
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1838_Druze_attack_on_Safed
Bonus: Pre-modern zionist state but modern period attack- with pictures for the folks on here who seem to enjoy such things:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Palestine_riots
Tiberius:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1660_destruction_of_Tiberias
I can post many more examples-- but in particular wanted to focus on the request for evidence of destruction of pre modern zionist but modern Jewish communications in the land of Israel.
For sure, Jews also migrated from places like Portugal, Spain and N. Africa to Ottoman Empire in 1400s, so the situation is of course complex. Here is some well cited work on persecution of Jews in North Africa and destruction of their communities (not attributed to ottomans, and in fact resulting in North African jews relocating to Ottoman territory)
https://books.google.com/books?id=9txi3xuuENcC&pg=PA25#v=onepage&q&f=false
To clarify- not meant as an attack on any specific other community in the middle east. Here is evidence from earlier periods of Crusader destruction of jewish cities. In Jerusalem, Haifa and elsewhere, entire communities were slaughtered.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_and_the_Crusades
Peace and love to all human beings! Just think before you adopt a sports mentality when you may not really fully understand the situation.
What did I post that isn't true? Seriously tell me which piece of information you don't believe and I will find a source or tell you how I arrived at that conclusion based on other evidence. You tell me how I've posted stuff I "read on social media" then seriously posted a bunch of wikipedia links, about instances that are mostly within the context of Jewish people being caught between two nations at war, or during occupations either by Ottomans or British. Did you actually read the wiki entries or just made a list of times Jews were killed or displaced in the Levant? No on has said that Jewish people didn't suffer in the Middle East before modern times but we had someone in here claiming Muslims wiped out 1/3 of the world's Jewish population. The stuff you are posting are events where hundreds at a time are killed or forced out of homes and in several cases these incidents are over a hundred years apart. What happens in that time in between? Also what does the Crusaders treatment of Jews have to do with any of this? You link the 1929 riots and massacre but offer no context regarding the Balfour Declaration or Britain making conflicting promises to Arabs and Jews. https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-and-non-jewish-population-of-israel-palestine-1517-present
This shows everything you need to know about the actual issue of Palestine and Israel, it still boils down to settler-colonialism. I understand there is a high level of empathy that must be given to Jews forced out of the countries they lived in for hundreds of years in Europe but it doesn't mean you get to remove an indigenous population somewhere unrelated.
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"I would like to see some source for Muslims killing 1/3 of the worlds Jewish population, or which particular time period and place you are talking about this happening. "
During the time periods I mention, given Jewish settlement was allowed primarily in 3 cities in Israel, indeed there were explosions and murders of 1/3 of certain settlements/cities and at various points fleeing to other places in the Ottoman Empire and/or Europe or Syria/Lebanon. Again, I fully accept that Ottoman Empire did not have full control centralized in the modern sense, and that jews did live for hundreds of years in many countries that ultimately become the British mandate of palestinine
A few specific responses:
- All of those entries describe Ottoman Turk sanctioned pograms (at least in the ones from pre 1900 time period) after ousting of Mamlauks. During some of these, the jewish population of Israel was indeed reduced by 1/3 or more. The Arab population in some of these time periods was very small as well. Jerusalem was a majority christian city for hundred of years. Many of these time periods do not appear tabulated in the numbers you provided. I dont believe there are numbers that are full census from some of these time periods.
- Someone else in this thread mentioned Ottoman agressions in the Middle East. I could also list many atrocities against Christians as the other person noted. That said, I agree overall these were pograms in the context of a larger Ottoman- Turk conquest of the mamlauks, but why is the murder, looting and rape excused if directed at Jews? I am in no way transporting this forward to imply that this is related to a moral justification for the current war, but its a well known fact that both the crusader empire kingdom of Jerusalem and the pre-zionist Ottomans, as well as other arab nations, had persistent issues with pograms against jews - state sponsored at various levels and with tacit or explicit approval of leaders during various periods. At some points Jerusalem and other places were temporarily rid of jews by Crusaders-- agreed.
- The population link that you posted has huge gaps as you can see, and doesn't really cover this period. Covers more of the zionist period. In 1800s and 1900s huge amounts of Jews and Arabs moved to Israel-- this is well documented. But the idea that they all came from Europe is fault. Most were from the Middle East. Happy to provide sources if anyone is curious -- but all of the following countries' Jewish histories during the 1800s to late 1900s and mass expulsions to Israel can easily be researched: (a) Yemen, (b) Morocco, (c) Syria, (d) Egypt, (e) Libya, (f) Iran (relatively large population allowed to remain), (g) Bahrain, (h) Afghanistan, (i) other parts of "British Mandate" (i.e., historic TransJordan, etc.), ...
- I agree that empathy for all people is important
- What do you expect Jews in Israel to do in terms of place to live and survival? More than 50% of Jews in Israel descend from Jews from middle eastern lands expelled in 1800s and 1900s (as noted above), stripped of their property and forced to move to Israel. Yes, some Israelis descend from Ashkanaz jewish refugees in Israel who are from Europe in the modern times, but trace descendant to the Middle East-- again less relevant than the reality that they live in Israel and hopefully we can agree dont deserve to be abducted, raped or executed.
- Assuming you dont plan to expel all Jews from Israel, how do you suggest Israel reacts to the attacks on its citizens including women and children recently? I can accept if you think some sort of negotiated settlement is required now, but long term what is the solution in Gaza specifically? Jews are long gone from Gaza despite what you might believe. What do you suggest Israel does at this point to free its hostages, or is that not relevant? If you are a pacifist, I understand that view. If not, what level of response do you think is appropriate, or are acts of terrorism against civilians justified while Gaza border cut off by both Egypt and Israel in response to threats of violence, instability, rape and looting.
Again- I have family and friends with views on both sides (and indeed, killed and injured in the attacks), just hard for me to understand capture and execution of women and children act as an act of valor or resistance. I certainly accept that I'm not unbiased.
Compassion definately should rule the day. Optimally Hamas can be removed from power in some kind of non-violent way. I dont venture to have an opinion on what the answer is at all, would just urge folks to be compassionate to their neighbors and try to remember there are humans involved on both sides who have valid feelings and claims. Would urge everyone to consider their words to their neighbors and friends that may be impacted amongst jews and muslims and peace to all.
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"I would like to see some source for Muslims killing 1/3 of the worlds Jewish population, or which particular time period and place you are talking about this happening. "
During the time periods I mention, given Jewish settlement was allowed primarily in 3 cities in Israel, indeed there were explosions and murders of 1/3 of certain settlements/cities and at various points fleeing to other places in the Ottoman Empire and/or Europe or Syria/Lebanon. Again, I fully accept that Ottoman Empire did not have full control centralized in the modern sense, and that jews did live for hundreds of years in many countries that ultimately become the British mandate of palestinine
A few specific responses:
- All of those entries describe Ottoman Turk sanctioned pograms (at least in the ones from pre 1900 time period) after ousting of Mamlauks. During some of these, the jewish population of Israel was indeed reduced by 1/3 or more. The Arab population in some of these time periods was very small as well. Jerusalem was a majority christian city for hundred of years. Many of these time periods do not appear tabulated in the numbers you provided. I dont believe there are numbers that are full census from some of these time periods.
- Someone else in this thread mentioned Ottoman agressions in the Middle East. I could also list many atrocities against Christians as the other person noted. That said, I agree overall these were pograms in the context of a larger Ottoman- Turk conquest of the mamlauks, but why is the murder, looting and rape excused if directed at Jews? I am in no way transporting this forward to imply that this is related to a moral justification for the current war, but its a well known fact that both the crusader empire kingdom of Jerusalem and the pre-zionist Ottomans, as well as other arab nations, had persistent issues with pograms against jews - state sponsored at various levels and with tacit or explicit approval of leaders during various periods. At some points Jerusalem and other places were temporarily rid of jews by Crusaders-- agreed.
- The population link that you posted has huge gaps as you can see, and doesn't really cover this period. Covers more of the zionist period. In 1800s and 1900s huge amounts of Jews and Arabs moved to Israel-- this is well documented. But the idea that they all came from Europe is fault. Most were from the Middle East. Happy to provide sources if anyone is curious -- but all of the following countries' Jewish histories during the 1800s to late 1900s and mass expulsions to Israel can easily be researched: (a) Yemen, (b) Morocco, (c) Syria, (d) Egypt, (e) Libya, (f) Iran (relatively large population allowed to remain), (g) Bahrain, (h) Afghanistan, (i) other parts of "British Mandate" (i.e., historic TransJordan, etc.), ...
- I agree that empathy for all people is important
- What do you expect Jews in Israel to do in terms of place to live and survival? More than 50% of Jews in Israel descend from Jews from middle eastern lands expelled in 1800s and 1900s (as noted above), stripped of their property and forced to move to Israel. Yes, some Israelis descend from Ashkanaz jewish refugees in Israel who are from Europe in the modern times, but trace descendant to the middle easy.
- Assuming you dont plan to expel all Jews from Israel, how do you suggest Israel reacts to the attacks on its citizens including women and children recently? I can accept if you think some sort of negotiated settlement is required now, but long term what is the solution in Gaza specifically? Jews are long gone from Gaza despite what you might believe. What do you suggest Israel does at this point to free its hostages, or is that not relevant?
Again- I have family and friends with views on both sides (and indeed, killed and injured in the attacks), just hard for me to understand capture and execution of women and children act as an act of valor or resistance. I certainly accept that I'm not unbiased.
Compassion definately should rule the day. Optimally Hamas can be removed from power in some kind of non-violent way. I dont venture to have an opinion on what the answer is at all, would just urge folks to be compassionate to their neighbors and try to remember there are humans involved on both sides who have valid feelings and claims. Would urge everyone to consider their words to their neighbors and friends that may be impacted amongst jews and muslims and peace to all.
Again, what did I lie about? You accused me of getting all my information from social media but give no examples, just an attack on me. Provide some instances where I'm "supremely misinformed." I have occasionally kept up with Haaretz even before these most recent issues as well as Arab news sources. Growing up I've talked with friend's grandparents who were personally forced out by the Nakba, and have many friends or friends with family still in Palestine and south Lebanon. I've spent quite a lot of time in the Middle East though not over the last 15 years. This is not an issue I jumped into in 2023.
1/3 of the Jews in Israel is much different than the claim of 1/3 of the world's Jewish population and it is misleading to try to re-frame that as just in Israel when the claim was originally made by someone trying to point out how bloodthirsty the Muslims were. I also am not sure that any of those events you linked would actually be anywhere close to 1/3 of the Jewish population of Israel at the times they occurred or are you meaning 1/3 of the Jewish population in Safed and Hebron? No one claimed that the rape, murder, and looting directed at Jews was excusable but it is important to provide all the context not because it makes it alright but because it lets you understand how things unfolded and the dynamics at play. Do I think Lehi were Nazis because they tried to establish contact with them? No, I understand that they made political decisions about who was the biggest threat to their goals and that any enemy of the Brits was worth exploring a relationship with. When there are multiple groups under an occupying power or empire things can be very messy and it is important not to dumb it down and flatten the issues.
Also listing dozens of times Jews where mistreated hundreds of years ago in history and putting in events where a few hundred people died or a few thousand were forced to flee in comparison to the displacement of over 700,000 is a little absurd.
When was the Arab population in the area ever very small? That is a pretty wild statement. I also can't find any evidence of the Jewish population being higher than 20% at any point between 1500 and 1920. If we are talking about demographics before that time period, what is the point in relation to Palestine-Israel today? Whether Jews migrated to Israel from North Africa or Europe in larger numbers makes no difference to the argument that they do not have a rightful claim or are justified in forcing indigenous people off the land but I'm not sure about your belief that North African and Arab Jews were half the population when Israel was founded, or if you mean they were half the Jews in Israel prior to 1930, 1900 or some other point. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliyah
If you do have some citations available that show what the Jewish population was at different times in the Levant between 1500 and 1880 I would like to see them, I'm finding it difficult to find any kind of demographic breakdowns over that time period. We do have a rough idea of what it was in 1517 though and what it was in 1882. Are you saying during this time there was some massive jump in the Jewish population that made them close to 40% that was later eliminated or expelled?
Asking Palestinians to provide the solution to their occupation and subjugation is also absurd. I don't think it is reasonable to end the state of Israel or kick everyone out but it is kind of funny when that is exactly what Israel did to the local population. Realistically there is nothing Palestinians can do at this point that would get Israel on board for a fair two state solution. Israel is too far down the rabbit hole with extremism and now calling for the genocide of Palestinians. The western governments with power to influence the situation have given Israel free reign to do whatever they want at this point. If Hamas should be removed for terrorist attacks, why doesn't that hold true for the government of Israel? Do you see the double standard? As has been the case for decades, Israel holds all the cards. Arab attitudes towards Israel are irreparably damaged at this point with the siege and bombardment of Gaza. At this point Hamas and the Israeli government should both face charges of war crimes.
I am truly sorry that you have people you care about that have died or been hurt in this conflict.
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I intepreted whoever's 1/3 post to mean genocide of jews in Middle East region or jewish settlements, not world.
Separately, during the crusades, Jews and Muslims were killed and Christians became majority in many cities. This is what I meant to refer to re: periods with less Arabs and Jews in Israel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Jerusalem . Additionally, of course the time periods prior to the Arab conquest under Christian Byzantine rule of Israel. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palaestina_Secunda
In 1492, Jews who had settled in Italy/Spain and parts of France during Roman settlement tmes (or been taken there as slaves) along with Muslims, were ethically cleansed from the Iberian Peninsula.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alhambra_Decree
This led to a mass emigration by jews to the middle least, in particular to ottoman Turkish centers of commerce that have been ravaged by the crusades. So yes, a huge amount of Jews moved to that region on the invite of ottoman leaders, leading to a mass increase in jewish population n 1500s leading up to some of the events I mentioned.
My point is simply that this is a complex region with a complex history of displacement in which Jews were at various points forcibly moved around the middle east (and other peoples and cultures), and that as well as Palestinian historical narratives are in play.
No people's claim is based on an ancient historical narrative only.
I dont disagree that in 1800 to mid 1940s Muslims majority likely in British mandate, but I do think there is a reason the statistics aren't so easy to come by in that the 1500 to 1800 time period ( frankly I have trouble understanding the jewish library estimates for the earlier periods like 1200 in the chart you cited, but thats not your issue and Ive certainly seen that source before and am not contesting its accuracy). I encourage you to look up Benjamin of Tudela if you'd like to read first hand accounts of jewish communities in middle east during medieval times.
To your last question: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mizrahi_Jews_in_Israel - middle eastern jews at over 60% as of 2005. I saw roughly 51% or so in a CIA document from the 80s I have printed out. At founding, I'm not sure I have seen that info or if it exists. I do think it is relevant for people to understand that jews are indigenous to the middle east, and that "middle eastern" and "European jews" are in fact one people, with some varying customs but a large degree of relationships. Yes populations moved around Middle East in post-colonial power vacuum, as well as to and from Europe before and since. People whose property were stolen in Egypt for example (and in fact, all of the places in the Middle East I previously mentioned shortly after their independence) and had to go to Israel as refugees have no where to return.
So therefore all sides have to come to a solution without killing civilians if possible. I would think should be everyones' goals.
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I intepreted whoever's 1/3 post to mean genocide of jews in Middle East region or jewish settlements, not world.
Separately, during the crusades, Jews and Muslims were killed and Christians became majority in many cities. This is what I meant to refer to re: periods with less Arabs and Jews in Israel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Jerusalem . Additionally, of course the time periods prior to the Arab conquest under Christian Byzantine rule of Israel. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palaestina_Secunda
In 1492, Jews who had settled in Italy/Spain and parts of France during Roman settlement tmes (or been taken there as slaves) along with Muslims, were ethically cleansed from the Iberian Peninsula.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alhambra_Decree
This led to a mass emigration by jews to the middle least, in particular to ottoman Turkish centers of commerce that have been ravaged by the crusades. So yes, a huge amount of Jews moved to that region on the invite of ottoman leaders, leading to a mass increase in jewish population n 1500s leading up to some of the events I mentioned.
My point is simply that this is a complex region with a complex history of displacement in which Jews were at various points forcibly moved around the middle east (and other peoples and cultures), and that as well as Palestinian historical narratives are in play.
No people's claim is based on an ancient historical narrative only.
I dont disagree that in 1800 to mid 1940s Muslims majority likely in British mandate, but I do think there is a reason the statistics aren't so easy to come by in that the 1500 to 1800 time period ( frankly I have trouble understanding the jewish library estimates for the earlier periods like 1200 in the chart you cited, but thats not your issue and Ive certainly seen that source before and am not contesting its accuracy). I encourage you to look up Benjamin of Tudela if you'd like to read first hand accounts of jewish communities in middle east during medieval times.
To your last question: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mizrahi_Jews_in_Israel - middle eastern jews at over 60% as of 2005. I saw roughly 51% or so in a CIA document from the 80s I have printed out. At founding, I'm not sure I have seen that info or if it exists. I do think it is relevant for people to understand that jews are indigenous to the middle east, and that "middle eastern" and "European jews" are in fact one people, with some varying customs but a large degree of relationships. Yes populations moved around Middle East in post-colonial power vacuum, as well as to and from Europe before and since. People whose property were stolen in Egypt for example and had to go to Israel as refugees have no where to return.
So therefore all sides have to come to a solution without killing civilians if possible. I would think should be everyones' goals.
Okay so you are talking about the demographics around 1200 in the first link and that has nothing to do with the modern issue at all. It also doesn't say that Arabs were a small percentage of the population at that time either it said the population was mainly native Christians and Muslims, the rulers were European Crusaders. That is a bit absurd in the context of this issue anyways. Your second link is about expulsion of Jews from Spain and while it says some fled to the Ottoman empire it doesn't give numbers or imply in the text that these were massive numbers that changed the demographics of Israel/Palestine area. If these numbers were so large how was the Jewish population of the area such a low percentage by 1882? Whether or not the majority of immigrants at some points were Maghrebi or Sephardic ends up mattering little when you see who achieved positions of power and influence early in the Israeli state. Most of that immigration came after Arab countries forced them out as a result of Israel kicking the Palestinians out, it was a rejection of colonialism and Zionism. So they can say well today over 50% of our population is Sephardic, Maghrebi, or Mizrahi but that is working backwards to justify the expulsion of people who lived on the land for generations. It was European Jews who predominately made policy and set up the systems in place. Europeans were the main drivers of Zionism and without Zionism the modern state of Israel would not exist.
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I intepreted whoever's 1/3 post to mean genocide of jews in Middle East region or jewish settlements, not world.
Separately, during the crusades, Jews and Muslims were killed and Christians became majority in many cities. This is what I meant to refer to re: periods with less Arabs and Jews in Israel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Jerusalem . Additionally, of course the time periods prior to the Arab conquest under Christian Byzantine rule of Israel. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palaestina_Secunda
In 1492, Jews who had settled in Italy/Spain and parts of France during Roman settlement tmes (or been taken there as slaves) along with Muslims, were ethically cleansed from the Iberian Peninsula.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alhambra_Decree
This led to a mass emigration by jews to the middle least, in particular to ottoman Turkish centers of commerce that have been ravaged by the crusades. So yes, a huge amount of Jews moved to that region on the invite of ottoman leaders, leading to a mass increase in jewish population n 1500s leading up to some of the events I mentioned.
My point is simply that this is a complex region with a complex history of displacement in which Jews were at various points forcibly moved around the middle east (and other peoples and cultures), and that as well as Palestinian historical narratives are in play.
No people's claim is based on an ancient historical narrative only.
I dont disagree that in 1800 to mid 1940s Muslims majority likely in British mandate, but I do think there is a reason the statistics aren't so easy to come by in that the 1500 to 1800 time period ( frankly I have trouble understanding the jewish library estimates for the earlier periods like 1200 in the chart you cited, but thats not your issue and Ive certainly seen that source before and am not contesting its accuracy). I encourage you to look up Benjamin of Tudela if you'd like to read first hand accounts of jewish communities in middle east during medieval times.
To your last question: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mizrahi_Jews_in_Israel - middle eastern jews at over 60% as of 2005. I saw roughly 51% or so in a CIA document from the 80s I have printed out. At founding, I'm not sure I have seen that info or if it exists. I do think it is relevant for people to understand that jews are indigenous to the middle east, and that "middle eastern" and "European jews" are in fact one people, with some varying customs but a large degree of relationships. Yes populations moved around Middle East in post-colonial power vacuum, as well as to and from Europe before and since. People whose property were stolen in Egypt for example and had to go to Israel as refugees have no where to return.
So therefore all sides have to come to a solution without killing civilians if possible. I would think should be everyones' goals.
Okay so you are talking about the demographics around 1200 in the first link and that has nothing to do with the modern issue at all. It also doesn't say that Arabs were a small percentage of the population at that time either it said the population was mainly native Christians and Muslims, the rulers were European Crusaders. That is a bit absurd in the context of this issue anyways. Your second link is about expulsion of Jews from Spain and while it says some fled to the Ottoman empire it doesn't give numbers or imply in the text that these were massive numbers that changed the demographics of Israel/Palestine area. If these numbers were so large how was the Jewish population of the area such a low percentage by 1882? Whether or not the majority of immigrants at some points were Maghrebi or Sephardic ends up mattering little when you see who achieved positions of power and influence early in the Israeli state. Most of that immigration came after Arab countries forced them out as a result of Israel kicking the Palestinians out, it was a rejection of colonialism and Zionism. So they can say well today over 50% of our population is Sephardic, Maghrebi, or Mizrahi but that is working backwards to justify the expulsion of people who lived on the land for generations. It was European Jews who predominately made policy and set up the systems in place. Europeans were the main drivers of Zionism and without Zionism the modern state of Israel would not exist.
Have you ever spoken with a middle eastern jew? Above is the sort of thing that sounds like you read online talking points. Again to take away agency of middle eastern jews and focus solely on 1940s as the only relevant time period, and therefore Israel as a European project due to the Balfour declaration leading up.
Just to quote you: "Arab countries forced them out" as if thats a slam dunk on the fact that middle eastern jews live in Israel. in response of creation of Israel is what you said above. Just think about what you're saying and the increase in population in increase in the time period in the chart you posted from a cause and effect perspective. Id send you citations showing the explosion of jews from the entire Middle East to Israel, but won't be relevant as I'm sure your already aware, but since others are reading, if anyone curious for further info let me know.
And so therefore its okay to (a) be mad state for indigenous minority created, (b) attack said state, (c) expel all co-religionists to such state from entire Middle East upon independence and (d) say its okay because those folks just got stuck there out of national Palestinian "resistance" to European Jews. I won't push this any further, as we clearly have different views, but appreciate your time.
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Expand Quote
Expand Quote
I intepreted whoever's 1/3 post to mean genocide of jews in Middle East region or jewish settlements, not world.
Separately, during the crusades, Jews and Muslims were killed and Christians became majority in many cities. This is what I meant to refer to re: periods with less Arabs and Jews in Israel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Jerusalem . Additionally, of course the time periods prior to the Arab conquest under Christian Byzantine rule of Israel. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palaestina_Secunda
In 1492, Jews who had settled in Italy/Spain and parts of France during Roman settlement tmes (or been taken there as slaves) along with Muslims, were ethically cleansed from the Iberian Peninsula.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alhambra_Decree
This led to a mass emigration by jews to the middle least, in particular to ottoman Turkish centers of commerce that have been ravaged by the crusades. So yes, a huge amount of Jews moved to that region on the invite of ottoman leaders, leading to a mass increase in jewish population n 1500s leading up to some of the events I mentioned.
My point is simply that this is a complex region with a complex history of displacement in which Jews were at various points forcibly moved around the middle east (and other peoples and cultures), and that as well as Palestinian historical narratives are in play.
No people's claim is based on an ancient historical narrative only.
I dont disagree that in 1800 to mid 1940s Muslims majority likely in British mandate, but I do think there is a reason the statistics aren't so easy to come by in that the 1500 to 1800 time period ( frankly I have trouble understanding the jewish library estimates for the earlier periods like 1200 in the chart you cited, but thats not your issue and Ive certainly seen that source before and am not contesting its accuracy). I encourage you to look up Benjamin of Tudela if you'd like to read first hand accounts of jewish communities in middle east during medieval times.
To your last question: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mizrahi_Jews_in_Israel - middle eastern jews at over 60% as of 2005. I saw roughly 51% or so in a CIA document from the 80s I have printed out. At founding, I'm not sure I have seen that info or if it exists. I do think it is relevant for people to understand that jews are indigenous to the middle east, and that "middle eastern" and "European jews" are in fact one people, with some varying customs but a large degree of relationships. Yes populations moved around Middle East in post-colonial power vacuum, as well as to and from Europe before and since. People whose property were stolen in Egypt for example and had to go to Israel as refugees have no where to return.
So therefore all sides have to come to a solution without killing civilians if possible. I would think should be everyones' goals.
Okay so you are talking about the demographics around 1200 in the first link and that has nothing to do with the modern issue at all. It also doesn't say that Arabs were a small percentage of the population at that time either it said the population was mainly native Christians and Muslims, the rulers were European Crusaders. That is a bit absurd in the context of this issue anyways. Your second link is about expulsion of Jews from Spain and while it says some fled to the Ottoman empire it doesn't give numbers or imply in the text that these were massive numbers that changed the demographics of Israel/Palestine area. If these numbers were so large how was the Jewish population of the area such a low percentage by 1882? Whether or not the majority of immigrants at some points were Maghrebi or Sephardic ends up mattering little when you see who achieved positions of power and influence early in the Israeli state. Most of that immigration came after Arab countries forced them out as a result of Israel kicking the Palestinians out, it was a rejection of colonialism and Zionism. So they can say well today over 50% of our population is Sephardic, Maghrebi, or Mizrahi but that is working backwards to justify the expulsion of people who lived on the land for generations. It was European Jews who predominately made policy and set up the systems in place. Europeans were the main drivers of Zionism and without Zionism the modern state of Israel would not exist.
Have you ever spoken with a middle eastern jew? Above is the sort of thing that sounds like you read online talking points. Again to take away agency of middle eastern jews and focus solely on 1940s as the only relevant time period, and therefore Israel as a European project due to the Balfour declaration leading up.
Just to quote you: "Arab countries forced them out" as if thats a slam dunk on the fact that middle eastern jews live in Israel. in response of creation of Israel is what you said above. Just think about what you're saying and the increase in population in increase in the time period in the chart you posted from a cause and effect perspective. Id send you citations showing the explosion of jews from the entire Middle East to Israel, but won't be relevant as I'm sure your already aware, but since others are reading, if anyone curious for further info let me know.
And so therefore its okay to (a) be mad state for indigenous minority created, (b) attack said state, (c) expel all co-religionists to such state from entire Middle East upon independence and (d) say its okay because those folks just got stuck there out of national Palestinian "resistance" to European Jews. I won't push this any further, as we clearly have different views, but appreciate your time.
I lived in the Middle East for over a decade, of course I have spoken to many Middle Eastern Jews. I've heard a range of stories from being completely accepted in Israeli society to others facing discrimination and being marginalized because they are Middle Eastern Jews. How many prime ministers and presidents of Israel have been Mizrahi or Sephardic? You are again trying to dictate what my experience and knowledge on the subject is without knowing me and making claims about where I get information. You are using the same talking points the Israeli government puts out trying to argue they are not a settler-colonial state but I'm not making claims about your experiences.
Addressing your points,
a. It is okay to be mad that a minority group created a state and forced you out, especially when many of those people have lived in Palestine for less than 100 years.
b. Attacking said state is okay.
c. Expelling Jews from the other Arab countries is not acceptable, I can see arguments made for Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, and Egypt but I would ultimately not agree with those arguments.
d. I'm not sure what you are trying to say here but I'm guessing this might be related, Israel was the logical place for them to end up after expulsion in the late 40's and afterwards and you can't hold that against the Jews who fled Arab nations to Israel.
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As an Israeli I will only say this"
Get your guns ready and protect your family Jihad will not stop with Israel and Jews.
As for the war, if you haven't live there or not knowlagable when it comes to history your view is not applicable no matter which side you side with.
Other than that ✌🏽❤
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As an Israeli I will only say this"
Get your guns ready and protect your family Jihad will not stop with Israel and Jews.
As for the war, if you haven't live there or not knowlagable when it comes to history your view is not applicable no matter which side you side with.
Other than that ✌🏽❤
With all due respect, we will continue to offer our take on it as our tax dollars are funding the Israeli war machine when many of us would prefer that not be the case. Israel simply cannot behave this way without the sanction and support of our elected officials. I wrote to my senator and representative for the first time today asking them both to demand a cease fire. As a new American citizen it was my fist act of civic duty.
In all sincerity though, I wish peace for you and yours also.
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Expand Quote
As an Israeli I will only say this"
Get your guns ready and protect your family Jihad will not stop with Israel and Jews.
As for the war, if you haven't live there or not knowlagable when it comes to history your view is not applicable no matter which side you side with.
Other than that ✌🏽❤
With all due respect, we will continue to offer our take on it as our tax dollars are funding the Israeli war machine when many of us would prefer that not be the case. Israel simply cannot behave this way without the sanction and support of our elected officials. I wrote to my senator and representative for the first time today asking them both to demand a cease fire. As a new American citizen it was my fist act of civic duty.
In all sincerity though, I wish peace for you and yours also.
I am happy that you can use your democracy given rights! And most deffintly should do so as much as you can!
I believe this war is actually making the US money not just spending it, or at least some people in the US are making money of it lots of money!
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Expand Quote
Expand Quote
As an Israeli I will only say this"
Get your guns ready and protect your family Jihad will not stop with Israel and Jews.
As for the war, if you haven't live there or not knowlagable when it comes to history your view is not applicable no matter which side you side with.
Other than that ✌🏽❤
With all due respect, we will continue to offer our take on it as our tax dollars are funding the Israeli war machine when many of us would prefer that not be the case. Israel simply cannot behave this way without the sanction and support of our elected officials. I wrote to my senator and representative for the first time today asking them both to demand a cease fire. As a new American citizen it was my fist act of civic duty.
In all sincerity though, I wish peace for you and yours also.
I am happy that you can use your democracy given rights! And most deffintly should do so as much as you can!
I believe this war is actually making the US money not just spending it, or at least some people in the US are making money of it lots of money!
The military industrial complex is a huge fucking problem in the US. Money is being siphoned from the citizens to pad the wallets of few.
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I won't get into what your "middle eastern jewish friends" have told you. Certainly are left wing people out there amongst middle eastern jews and jews in general. But, vast majority of sefardi and Mizrahi jews are highly traditional and supportive of Israel's right to exist certainly. The Sefardi political party is basically the kingmaker in the Israeli parliament and heavily supports the Likud government. All of this is easily verifiable.
b. Attacking said state is okay.
I find it really interesting that you state "attacking said state" is okay. Do you understand that these are human beings? Unarmed and at a dance party and slaughtered by terrorists at a far higher proportion to general population of country versus any other terrorist attack (i.e., attack against civilians by non-state actor intended to cause fear and be used in propaganda). If you look at the history, this follows a long history of various peoples attacking jewish minority in Israel for hundreds of years.
That is the part that is so bizarre about the anti-Israel rhetoric. Yes, it is totally acceptable to be feel that Israel and the US should never bomb terrorist organizations hiding in midst of civilian targets, even in retaliation for heinous acts. But where the debate ends for me is when I see the "left' so openly support genocide against a minority group. I agree that what is going on right now in Gaza is terrible. I have never met a Jew or Israeli that would prefer to take military action in response to hundreds of civilians being killed. What do you expect vis a vi the hostages? Leave them there, because liberal Europeans and the majority group in the region dont agree that the state should exist 70 years later.
I clearly do not feel that way, and feel that indeed some action has to be taken to protect innocent men, women and children.
On your last point-- my point isn't that it was "logical" for them to move to Israel. In fact many were forced to leave facing genocide or rape, and had their property confiscated. Thats the reason middle eastern jews came to Israel with nothing and faced a very difficult time.
Here is another link for those who may not have devoted as much time to forming a world view I certainly won't change and is extremely alien I hope from the way the vast majority of Americans at least think:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_world
By this source, which again seems fairly "balanced" (i.e., edited by the pro-palestian internet warriors)-650,000 of these people went to Israel. Yes, I am trying to explain that indeed these people then had to move somewhere, and yes, the fact that Palestinians got the short end when the Arab governments were taking all Jewish houses in Syria, etc etc, is not a positive. But it was 70 + years ago, and humans are humans. None of the links I posted are meant to portray others as not having valid claims for right to live and exist-- everyone definitely has a right to live and exist!
Everyone can read the "push and pull" arguments in the above article written from the historiographic viewpoints of both "schools", but remember all of these people are human beings being "swapped" and used as pawns by governments and militaries of various countries.
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As an Israeli I will only say this"
Get your guns ready and protect your family Jihad will not stop with Israel and Jews.
As for the war, if you haven't live there or not knowlagable when it comes to history your view is not applicable no matter which side you side with.
Other than that ✌🏽❤
my view is that israel has murdered 7 thousand people. feel free to correct me...
btw this is making lots of people money. as a matter of fact, the existence of the state of israel makes a lot of people in the USA money. hence us defending it (or right now i guess israel doesn't have a standing army capable of fighting for itself since your soldiers keep plugging each other accidentally so our need to cover our investment is twofold).
bronx river kook who were the lehi and what is the nakba
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Since I've been posting links and more requested:
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(militant_group) : Your asking if I accept that a right wing jewish paramilitary / terrorist organization existed in pre-state Israel? Yes. Do I accept they killed both jews and non-jews and certainly didn't act in accordance with Jewish law? Yes. I'm busy for next few hours, but one fascinating and disturbing episode I can't remember the name of was the assassination of a Jewish poet who worked with arab and orthodox jewish anti-nationalists in early zionist times. He was basically shot in the head leaving synoguge. This is the story I've been told, but can't find it online. Its a famous event as the murdered man was sort of a strange character. More to come.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba#:~:text=The%20Nakba%20(Arabic%3A%20النكبة%2C,majority%20of%20the%20Palestinian%20Arabs
- Nakba. I wont venture to define this. But yes, I accept that there have been displacements and atrocities committed by people's under all "flags' against each other. This is also relevant history in the discussion and has been discussed in the thread. I haven't fact checked the wiki article, but my posts were not intended to "hide" anything.
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I won't get into what your "middle eastern jewish friends" have told you. Certainly are some leftists out there amongst middle eastern jews, but vast majority of sefardi and Mizrahi jews are highly traditional and supportive of Israel's right to exist certainly. The Sefardi political party is basically the kingmaker in the Israeli parliament and heavily supports the Likud government.
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b. Attacking said state is okay.
I find it really interesting that you state "attacking said state" is okay. Do you understand that these are human beings? Unarmed and at a dance party and slaughtered by terrorists at a far higher proportion to general population of country versus any other terrorist attack (i.e., attack against civilians by non-state actor intended to cause fear and be used in propaganda). If you look at the history, this follows a long history of various peoples attacking jewish minority in Israel for hundreds of years.
That is the part that is so bizarre about the anti-Israel rhetoric. Yes, it is totally acceptable to be feel that Israel and the US should never bomb terrorist organizations hiding in midst of civilian targets, even in retaliation for heinous acts. But where the debate ends for me is when I see the "left' so openly support genocide against a minority group. I agree that what is going on right now in Gaza is terrible. I have never met a Jew or Israeli that would prefer to take military action in response to hundreds of civilians being killed. What do you expect vis a vi the hostages? Leave them there, because liberal Europeans and the majority group in the region dont agree that the state should exist 70 years later.
I clearly do not feel that way, and feel that indeed some action has to be taken to protect innocent men, women and children.
On your last point-- my point isn't that it was "logical" for them to move to Israel. In fact many were forced to leave facing genocide or rape, and had their property confiscated. Thats the reason middle eastern jews came to Israel with nothing and faced a very difficult time.
Here is another link for those who may not have devoted as much time to forming a world view I certainly won't change and is extremely alien I hope from the way the vast majority of Americans at least think:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_world
By this source, which again seems fairly "balanced" (i.e., edited by the pro-palestian internet warriors)-650,000 of these people went to Israel. Yes, I am trying to explain that indeed these people then had to move somewhere, and yes, the fact that Palestinians got the short end when the Arab governments were taking all Jewish houses in Syria, etc etc, is not a positive. But it was 70 + years ago, and humans are humans.
You won't get into what they told me? What did I say they told me that seems far fetched? That some felt completely accepted in Israeli society or that others didn't feel as welcome? Were you wanting me to touch on how their parent/grand parents felt about being expelled from where they lived before Israel? Honestly that wasn't something that came up as a focus and if conversations moved towards serious things it was usually about current Israeli events or Iran. I don't get where you think any of them told me they didn't think Israel had a right to exist, that is absurd. Or that it was mostly leftists, they were people I have met in my life traveling, not attending demonstrations or some shit.
I understand that Sefardi and Mizrahi Jews tend to be more traditional and that kind of environment can contribute to someone with differing views not feeling welcome in their own community. Experiences are different for everyone, I'm not going to pretend like the ones I've been told are some great cross sample. Many of those experiences have family situations or economic differences that shade them heavily. I might not have been clear enough in earlier post when I'm talking about European Jews I do not mean anything to do with them being of some different bloodline or any conspiracy thing like that. I mean European in the culture and education they had, carrying European ideas. During the early years of Israel the policy guiding the country was in my understanding not very influenced by Sephardic or Mizrahi Jews. We know Israel changed a lot over time politically and it is more conservative and religious now then in other times so dynamics change.
When I say attacking said state is okay, I do not want anyone killed ever, but in reaction to decades of oppression and the removal of peaceful means of resolution like BDS movement, continued settler expansion and attacks, apartheid, then yes attacking said country is okay. It is horrible but it is the tool available. What Hamas did is beyond what anyone should be comfortable with though, myself included. I don't think any of the people who died in the Hamas attack deserved to die regardless if they were Zionist, secular, Arab Israeli, a foreign worker, or Bedouin. The kidnapping aspect is also horrible, these aren't soldiers or diplomats. It is abhorrent, and for many people it will set back Palestinian legitimacy quiet a bit.
As you said though, these are real peoples lives and Palestinians are killed every day with the normal citizens taking the brunt of it. The condition is insanity and is constant and often violent and disrespectful on level that hurt the core of a human being. I know the scale was massive and that massacre in one day is a unfathomable. In the 2014 Gaza war almost 1500 Palestinian civilians were killed and less than 10 Israeli civilians died, it's not all in one terrible moment but it is a continual terrible series of days one after another. That scale is not unfathomable for the Palestinians, already hundreds had died this year before all of this happened. The idea that Israel can defend itself by indiscriminately bombing apartment buildings and everything else in response is indefensible to me. The death toll is somewhere near 7000 in Gaza now with up to 3000 children. That is twice as many children as people who died in the massacre. They dropped more bombs in a week than some years the US did in Afghanistan. At this point we have people actually ready to try and wipe out the Palestinian people. Things have steadily gotten worse over the years and all signs pointed towards Israel continuing to get worse with the oppression. Pretending Hamas didn't commit this most recent terrorist attack, what kind of action could they have taken to move towards a Palestinian state or bringing Israel to negotiate with them? But we've gone over this in other parts of the thread, Israel wanted Hamas in power so they could justify a blockade, tie the entire Palestinian movement to Hamas and get a reaction to where you can call all Palestinians animals and float genocide to the world.
What should they do or have done about the hostages? I honestly don't know. I would like to think that Hamas would legitimately hold them as bargaining chips and treat them well but I'm not going to pretend like I think that is the case despite what the one released hostage might have experience. I think that if Israel had stopped bombing for a bit to see if negotiation was an option would of been the best choice. I understand the want for revenge and Netanyahu needing to appear strong making that a difficult sell but I wish that it was explored. At this point I just don't know what any of the parties can do from here that will deescalate to anything that looks like a path forward without starting with a ceasefire and lots of medical aid and food coming in.
I didn't mean logical to have any negative connotations or whatever you are reading into it. I meant that Israel was a state they would be welcome in, they faced terrible situations and I'd expect them to end up there after being forced out. They can't be expected to return to these places obviously. I really didn't understand what you had wrote for d. but Arab countries expelling Jews was wrong and brutal. I'll give you that it also occurred with antisemitic tropes and sentiments, I am not an apologist for what happened. Addressing every single thing takes forever and people inevitably leave stuff out. I don't think the legitimacy of Palestinian statehood hinges on if people recognize the full scope of the expulsion of Jews from Arab countries.
I'll agree to disagree with you with and leave it alone. I fully realize I am annoying and that is not intentional but I've tried to be civil and talking to you has been rough I'm going to just assume you need to be given some grace at this time. I truly hope for peace for you and your family and friends.
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Been working and skating today so don't have time to go over the history of Irgun and other paramilitary organizations in Israel. I agree also all part of the story.
This is the type of quote I find troubling:
"But we've gone over this in other parts of the thread, Israel wanted Hamas in power so they could justify a blockade, tie the entire Palestinian movement to Hamas and get a reaction to where you can call all Palestinians animals and float genocide to the world."
This simply isn't true. This is where your otherwise fairly cogent post jumps the shark. Thats the conspiracy theory element that takes your argument from a fairly compassionate post an statement to something else-- its actually Jews/zionist fault that Hamas is in power. This is another statement that begs citations and examination, but I'll have to log in more later, and dont want to monopolize the conversation.
Nothing personal in any of this-- my family's situation there is what it is, I mainly posted because as folks bring up Nakba and other areas of history, the Israeli/Jewish/Christian (and other minority of Middle East) side should be shared as well to give people and understanding of the depth of the situation and humanity. Im not doubting what folks have said to you over the years at all-- just in my experience knowing many many middle eastern jews well, ive certainly heard the view that Ashkenazi are snobs, weirdo europeans, etc., but they tend to be the most "extreme" people I know in the sense of pro - Israeli expansion. I just think your bringing up Israeli class/cultural practice differences is not really relevant to the current violence, so thats why I didn't want to get into that element of it further. It also really doesn't matter to your point aside from the perspective of framing the history of the region and how we ended up in this situation.
None of my posts are intended to minimize the suffering of any civilian population and hopefully there is (has to be) a peaceful outcome available.
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oh i dont have time to go over relevant historical factors, im just reminding people that the jewish people have had a rough go of it historically. i dont know why Fatah isn't a relevant political factor in palestine anymore, have you heard of the 1521 judeo-samaic war
Palestinian authority is Fatah. Most Israelis would like PA in control of Gaza. I'd be curious for any Israelis' or Palestinians on here's view on this specific point though. I thought essentially they were the same org or the predecessor. Yes Yitzak Rabin was assassinated by arguably a "jewish terrorist" as well as Palestinians and British in particular during the mandate period. Edit-- I realized you maybe referring to the theories that Yasser Arafat was poisoned in his old age somehow by Mossad, despite no evidence being found by outside European and Russian investigators-- I honestly dont know much about this. Certainly his "peace partner" Rabin was assassinated so I understand the paranoia. Though honestly I thought he was fairly old and out of power by the time he passed (Yasser Arafat)-- I'm certainly not an expert on how the PA was founded.
If your point is that you'd like me to recognize that Zionists had illegal paramilitary (ie., arguably terrorist type organizations) I would agree with that. Nakba I just dont feel comfortable defining as a non-Palestinian or Arab-Israeli on a skateboard message board. I think I have an idea of the displacements that occurred, but its really not my place to define it. If your asking if during the war of independence civilians were displaced by paramilitary groups, and in pre-state there was "terroristic" type activity against British etc I dont disagree with that. Again, all part of a sad and violent history.
Bringing back to present- someone else reference their representative. I would encourage folks to google my liberal democratic congressman Ritchie Torres' statements on the situation. They are pretty balanced for folks who are curious to hear a more nuanced opinion than far left or right.
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Been working and skating today so don't have time to go over the history of Irgun and other paramilitary organizations in Israel. I agree also all part of the story.
This is the type of quote I find troubling:
"But we've gone over this in other parts of the thread, Israel wanted Hamas in power so they could justify a blockade, tie the entire Palestinian movement to Hamas and get a reaction to where you can call all Palestinians animals and float genocide to the world."
This simply isn't true. This is where your otherwise fairly cogent post jumps the shark. Thats the conspiracy theory element that takes your argument from a fairly compassionate post an statement to something else-- its actually Jews/zionist fault that Hamas is in power. This is another statement that begs citations and examination, but I'll have to log in more later, and dont want to monopolize the conversation.
Nothing personal in any of this-- my family's situation there is what it is, I mainly posted because as folks bring up Nakba and other areas of history, the Israeli/Jewish/Christian (and other minority of Middle East) side should be shared as well to give people and understanding of the depth of the situation and humanity. Im not doubting what folks have said to you over the years at all-- just in my experience knowing many many middle eastern jews well, ive certainly heard the view that Ashkenazi are snobs, weirdo europeans, etc., but they tend to be the most "extreme" people I know in the sense of pro - Israeli expansion. I just think your bringing up Israeli class/cultural practice differences is not really relevant to the current violence, so thats why I didn't want to get into that element of it further. It also really doesn't matter to your point aside from the perspective of framing the history of the region and how we ended up in this situation.
None of my posts are intended to minimize the suffering of any civilian population and hopefully there is (has to be) a peaceful outcome available.
Admittedly the jump to use it as justification for war crimes is my own and based on the direction Netanyahu and like minded people in government were taking things before October 7 and how they have reacted after. The idea that Israel propped up Hamas is not some conspiracy at all though, many people have shared this idea for years. https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
There is also WaPo and WSJ articles. You can argue that Israel's motives are not that sinister but the facts on the ground end up being what they are, atrocities are piled upon atrocities with Israel ignoring international law yet again while the politicians call for a second Nakba and using clearly genocidal language.
You saying Irgun was maybe a terrorist organization is so wild, they were clearly one and members found their way into Israeli government from the very start. They are celebrated by Israel for resisting colonial occupation. That is why it is so ironic and Israel's stance is inconsistent. Playing around this issue and pretending not to see the inconsistency along with some of your other arguments show me that you really don't care to actually be open.
Also Ritchie Torres? https://www.jpost.com/opinion/article-754380
https://www.columnblog.com/p/ritchie-torres-represents-the-poorest
His statements are laughable, the idea that you hold that up as the standard to which American politicians should strive to on this issue is ridiculous. Your reasoning for not discussing the Nakba is also insane. I really thought you were just caught up too close to things but you really are just trying to derail shit and put out justifications unrelated to the current situation.
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Ritchie Torres is a good dude and does alot to help the poorer folks in this district-- he definitely has haters though thats for sure :). I'm not sure about the argument that he isn't an advocate for the poorer or minority folks in his district- that doesn't match what I know or have seen from him in the local news.
If you think most Jews or Israelis have some sort of obsession with the Irgun, I dont agree. I don't think any religious or orthodox jew ever thought the Irgun or Hagganah was morally justifiable. They were indeed secular nationalist paramilitary groups as others have noted that arose up during the collapse of British colonial power. I am aware they had a lot to do with the founding of the state. They did also operate as a security force for jews during wars and pograms in addition to "terrorist" activity. Ill also recognize that Hamas performs similar functions in Gaza (poorly). Hezbelloh is certainly not very different from the Lehi in some very weird mirror, but real sense.
Here is the assassination I referenced earlier of a poet who worked with the pre-zionist Ashkenazi jewish authorities (some of them).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Israël_de_Haan
I've heard about this and other stories many times. There is a reason Israeli media originally called them the "Stern Gang". These people are not considered heroes amongst the average Israeli jew or religious jew. Do I think there is a nationalist element there like everywhere else? Sure..
The point is that those organizations no longer exist. You have every right to be upset about military bombings in Gaza-- my point is if folks break up under flags, sides, etc., thats not the way forward, and part of how we understand other people's views is being exposed to the historiographic view they have of their own history and the history of the region.
Recognizing each others' humanities, cultures and histories and being able to understand different viewpoints seems to be the goal of discussion: to hopefully lead to less war.
If a reader reading this thread thinks Israelis are all white people who popped up to invade Israel with the Irgun and that is the starting point, seems like some context missing and that won't help understanding on either side.
Not trying to obfuscate anything-if folks have actual evidence of Israel funding Hamas or supporting it would love to see it. Certainly been a common left wing attack (or anti Bibi really) attack against Netanyahu in Israel (i.e., that his actions have ultimately led to Hamas taking over Gaza). I think that is different than implying that Jews or Israelis are actually trying to support Hamas or have a plan to allow incidents like this or use them for political purposes.
Re: the Nakba and founding of the State of Israel, what do you want me to say about that. Clearly we have different views about what happened there in terms of the cause and effect, though likely recognize the same actual "facts"
Shouldn't the goal be getting a stable situation in Gaza rid of Hamas? Terrorist attacks aren't going to help advance the goals of humanity. It is just not possible to create peace with terrorist activity, even if you are angry regarding the terrible economic and other circumstances in Gaza historically and Israelis military actions. There will be brutal retaliations for terrorist attacks.
I'm of course biased and giving the history as I understand it of the conflict: appreciate everyone posting their thoughts.
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Ritchie Torres is a good dude and does alot to help the poorer folks in this district-- he definitely has haters though thats for sure :). I'm not sure about the argument that he isn't an advocate for the poorer or minority folks in his district- that doesn't match what I know or have seen from him in the local news.
If you think most Jews or Israeli have some sort of obsession with the Irgun, I dont agree. I dont think any religious or orthodox jew ever thought the Irgun or Hagganah was morally justifiable. They were indeed secular nationalist paramilitary groups as others have noted that arose up during the collapse of British colonial power. I am aware they had a lot to do with the founding of the state. They did also operate as a security force for jews during wars and pograms in addition to "terrorist" activity.
Here is the assassination I referenced earlier of a poet who worked with the pre-zionist Ashkenazi jewish authorities (some of them).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Israël_de_Haan
I've heard about this and other stories many times. There is a reason Israel's originally called them the "Stern Gang". These people are not considered heroes amongst the average Israeli jew or religious jew. Do I think there is a nationalist element there like everywhere else? Sure..
The point is that those organizations no longer exist. You have every right to be upset about military bombings in Gaza-- my point is if folks break up under flags, sides, etc., thats not the way forward, and part of how we understand other people's views is being exposed to the historiographic view they have of their own history and the history of the region.
My whole point people recognizing each others' humanities, cultures and histories and being able to understand different viewpoints-- to hopefully lead to less war. If someone believes Israelis are all white people who popped up to invade Israel with the Irgun and that is the starting point, seems like some context missing.
Not trying to obfuscate anything-if folks have actual evidence of Israel funding Hamas or supporting it would love to see it. Certainly been a common left wing attack (or anti Bibi really) attack against Netanyahu in Israel (i.e., that his actions have ultimately led to Hamas taking over Gaza). I think that is different than implying that Jews or Israelis are actually trying to support Hamas or have a plan to allow incidents like this or use them for political purposes.
Re: Nakba, what do you want me to say about that? Shouldn't the goal be getting a stable situation in Gaza rid of Hamas? Terrorist attacks aren't going to help advance the goals of humanity. Its just not possible even if you are angry regarding the terrible economic and other circumstances in Gaza historically and Israelis military actions. I'm of course biased and giving the history as I understand it of the conflict-- appreciate everyone posting their thoughts.
In the links you can see that Torres gets the 7th highest donations from Pro-Israel pacs among 435 members of congress. He is also spewing the same charged language that Israel does, he is a paid mouthpiece. Irgun became Herut which became Likud. As you have pointed out before in this thread Likud is still very powerful. As for if Israel propped up Hamas just google it seriously, I'm out of free article views for most of the sites. I posted one already, here is another but seriously just google it or Brig. Gen. Yitzhak Segev to go back much further than 2019.
https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/netanyahu-money-to-hamas-part-of-strategy-to-keep-palestinians-divided-583082
https://www.timesofisrael.com/abbas-netanyahu-responsible-for-west-bank-terror-due-to-payments-to-hamas/
You didn't want to discuss the Nakba but were keen to get to include Jews from Arab countries which came as a reaction to the Nakba, as a defense for why Israel actually is not a result of European immigration. It was terrible as we established but ignoring it in relation to the expulsion of Jews from the Arab world is insanity especially if you won't address the Nakba, because you are a good guy who doesn't want to speak for others and not because you refuse to condemn atrocities by Israel or its founders. "Do I think there is a nationalist element there like elsewhere?" Seriously dude?
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A few more inaccurate statements to correct:
- Jewish immigration from the other Middle Eastern states to Israel (aka expulsion of jews from the Middle East) due to Arab nationalism and the collapse of the colonial states in the Middle East did not happen as a "reaction" to the independence of Israel and/or Nakba. It was already happening. Certainly arab states started speeding up the expulsions of jews to Israel and stealing of all their property after Israeli independence was declared. I agree that doing this and forcing a mass migration of middle eastern jews into tent camps with no property, leaving their houses, etc., behind, some on foot, etc., did not help Palestinians maintain their territorial holdings after the arab states invaded Israel.
- For the most part, the links you posted vis a vi Likud and Hamas are written from a more right wing point of view. I.e., these are articles written by people that wanted the Likud to stop Qatari money from flowing into Gaza, which is effectively its main humanitarian aid. Is that was the Israeli government should have done? That is the clear goal of at least one of the articles, I haven't read the other (aside from the click-bait title). I support the Likud allowing Qatari aid to go to Gaza, even though much of it ends up pilfered by Hamas from the civilians. If this support is removed, Gaza would be solely reliant on Iran and Russia and in even worse shape arguably. I have many friends who dont believe Qatari money should be allowed to go to Hamas though, and certainly that is a fair view. I do understand from that perspective how one could say Bibi allowed Hamas to survive, but the alternative would have been effectively trying to declare war on Qatar which is a huge U.S. ally. Certainly the Cold War struggle of power between Russia/USA and their respective allies continues to loom large over all this unfortunately for the actual people.
- What is the difference between Jews having a flag and state and nationalistic elements in their culture and others? Do you believe Israeli society is more reactionary in the traditional sense than other middle eastern states. Why was my statement accepting that Israeli society has a nationalistic element absurd? Do you feel Israelis are more nationalistic than others in the Middle East?
- I haven't researched Ritchie Torres' (my districts representative discussed above) source of donations. Ive never donated money to him and or voted for him. All I know about him is what I've seen him do in my district and what I've seen him say. Yes he is a representative in a large segment of the Bronx and jews who live in his district give him money (as well as many others). Shocking, shocking I tell you! The idea that he is a shill for Israel or big money lobby is really patently absurd. 2023 is strange-- never thought I'd be defending Ritchie Torres on a message board ha.
I do want to thank all of you for a civil discussion and a thread that I also learned from. This might be the most civil Israeli Palestine discussion on an anonymous message board ever ha
Hopefully healthy for everyone to have a place to try to exchange their feelings skater style and be well/have a great weekend everyone..
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I hope Israel stops the wholesale murder of innocent civilians and children.
That would really make my fucking weekend
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I hope Israel stops the wholesale murder of innocent civilians and children.
That would really make my fucking weekend
agreed, would make my fucking week/month
pretty fucking crazy for people to say "Hamas is the problem"....I must have missed the part where Hamas dropped 6 tons of bombs on refugee neighborhoods? I'm also disgusted by the increasing number of Jewish celebrities/comedians/actors/musicians just proudly espousing racism. (looking at you Amy Schumer, Chelsea Handler, Regina Spektor, etc etc)
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As an Israeli I will only say this"
Get your guns ready and protect your family Jihad will not stop with Israel and Jews.
As for the war, if you haven't live there or not knowlagable when it comes to history your view is not applicable no matter which side you side with.
Other than that ✌🏽❤
Anyone who was conscious during 9/11 remembers this line and of course the main thing which happened was that the US and its allies projected unspeakable violence on under developed countries in the Middle East. Same shit, different day.
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Ive been a bit busier lately and obviously the news has taken a pretty dark turn in terms of both military violence, crisis in Gaza, hostages being found killed, etc.
Especially given folks' understandable desire to keep "politics" off here as posted in other threads, I'm going to pull back from posting in this thread (not sure I would consider our discussion of history/current events to be "politics" and that wasn't my intent, but I get it after my heavy downvoting).
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I hope Israel stops the wholesale murder of innocent civilians and children.
That would really make my fucking weekend
pretty fucking crazy for people to say "Hamas is the problem"....I must have missed the part where Hamas dropped 6 tons of bombs on refugee neighborhoods? I'm also disgusted by the increasing number of Jewish celebrities/comedians/actors/musicians just proudly espousing racism. (looking at you Amy Schumer, Chelsea Handler, Regina Spektor, etc etc)
In fairness, what exactly do you think Hamas would do if it had said “six ton bombs”?
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I hope Israel stops the wholesale murder of innocent civilians and children.
That would really make my fucking weekend
pretty fucking crazy for people to say "Hamas is the problem"....I must have missed the part where Hamas dropped 6 tons of bombs on refugee neighborhoods? I'm also disgusted by the increasing number of Jewish celebrities/comedians/actors/musicians just proudly espousing racism. (looking at you Amy Schumer, Chelsea Handler, Regina Spektor, etc etc)
In fairness, what exactly do you think Hamas would do if it had said “six ton bombs”?
whatever the answer to this hypothetical question is it does not justify the genocide that is currently occurring.
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Ive been a bit busier lately and obviously the news has taken a pretty dark turn in terms of both military violence, crisis in Gaza, hostages being found killed, etc.
Especially given folks' understandable desire to keep "politics" off here as posted in other threads, I'm going to pull back from posting in this thread (not sure I would consider our discussion of history/current events to be "politics" and that wasn't my intent, but I get it after my heavy downvoting).
The belief that Jews were favored by colonial powers like the British and Anti-Zionism as well as antisemitism helped lead to the expulsion of Jews from Arab countries. The confirmation of this favor came in stages with the Balfour Declaration and eventually the creation of Israel which led to the Nakba. You can't separate the anti-colonial aspect of the expulsion of Jews from Arab countries. You can find several Israelis who counter this reverse Nakba argument, Ran Cohen, Shlomo Hilleland and more. Tunisia, Morocco, and Algeria had a large number of Jews emigrate to Israel but but were not expelled. Libya had Zionist elements, as did Iraq and those bombed Jewish housing in order to encourage Jews to leave Iraq. 1950-1951 Baghdad bombings. I won't get hung up on this point though.
Don't let down votes stop you from posting, people should hear multiple views. I have many Arab friends who would not agree with some of my views, and many of them have views that conflict with each other on multiple issues. More than anything I hope anyone reading this thread understands is that Palestine and the Arab world is made up of so many different people with unique viewpoints. Islam is not some inherently dangerous religion that gives us permission to dehumanize its followers. The kinds of things I hear being said by some news outlets just doesn't match my experience in knowing Arabs or Muslims. The bombs don't differentiate between Christian Palestinian, moderate Muslim or Hamas terrorist and in order to sell the kind of civilian casualties involved in this campaign the Israeli government have to dehumanize them. The vast majority of Palestinian people are normal people you can not justify killing by the thousands with bombs and wiping out over 45% of homes or something crazy like that.
The same holds true for Israelis, I do not want to discount the work that Israeli advocacy groups do for Palestine. These groups have a strong chance of influencing situations by engaging the Israeli public. I do feel for Israelis having an existential dread of worrying about terror attacks. Most Israelis haven't been extremists settlers or talked about wiping out Palestinians. Those voices are there though and amplified by government. While I can not accept the way Israel was formed, the original need for a Jewish state still exists. Antisemitism created the need for Israel, the creation of Israel fueled a legitimate land dispute that turned into an occupation but also created more antisemitism. The continued worldwide existence and growth of antisemitism maintains the existential need for Israel to exist. I understand that any solution needs to retain some form of an Israeli state. I know some people think, or thought, a one state solution is the way to make things right but I can't see Israel every agreeing to a chance that Jewish people would ever become a minority of the population after allowing Palestinians the right to return.
Outside of the one dude who said something about Jihad spreading to the entire world I don't think things have been gotten too crazy. Me and you will never see eye to eye on the history of Israel and Palestine but we can agree that things can not continue as they are and there needs to be a path forward where civilians don't pay the toll on either side. I feel for all the Jewish and Arab people around the world who will suffer hate as a result of what is going on in Israel and Palestine.
Added later: The Israeli campaign is indefensible. Even with a right to retaliate this is insanity. The situation in the West Bank with settlers killing Palestinians. There are videos of IDF soldiers stepping on prisoners heads and spitting on them, it's possible that isn't from anytime in the last month but I highly doubt it is fake. Detaining 1800 Palestinians in the West Bank since October 7th. There are holocaust survivors calling it genocide, officials are using genocidal language. Once again the death rate is approaching a 10:1 civilian death toll where Palestinian civilians take the worst of it as they have in every single conflict with Israel. If you are in the US please call or email your representatives to demand a ceasefire. Things are continuing to escalate without journalists and cameras around to document much of what is happening in Gaza.
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I hope Israel stops the wholesale murder of innocent civilians and children.
That would really make my fucking weekend
pretty fucking crazy for people to say "Hamas is the problem"....I must have missed the part where Hamas dropped 6 tons of bombs on refugee neighborhoods? I'm also disgusted by the increasing number of Jewish celebrities/comedians/actors/musicians just proudly espousing racism. (looking at you Amy Schumer, Chelsea Handler, Regina Spektor, etc etc)
In fairness, what exactly do you think Hamas would do if it had said “six ton bombs”?
There is absolutely nothing ‘fair’ about comparing a hypothetical to a fucking real life genocide, you asshat.
That’s like saying “what would the Jews in Germany do if they had access to Gas Chambers?”
Jews did try to fight back during WW2, and just like now, it brought massive repercussions and slaughter.
So like, blame the victims, right?
*edit
I’m pissed. But that doesn’t excuse what I wrote. Attacking innocent people, while to them might be seen as fighting back and giving Israelis a taste of what the Palestinians constantly go through as justified to Hanas, but not to me.
I shouldn’t have written that.
Many Palestinians fight back against checkpoints, police, the army, snipers, watchtowers and the like. And they get gunned down for it as well.
But this Israeli response is so utterly over the top that it’s laughable to justify it as trying to destroy Hamas. It’s just straight-up execution and mass expulsion of an entire people. Hamas is just the excuse to finally do what they’ve been planning for years.
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Jews weren’t trying to massacre Germans. Hamas said they will do 10/7 over and over again as soon as they get the chance.
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I hope Israel stops the wholesale murder of innocent civilians and children.
That would really make my fucking weekend
pretty fucking crazy for people to say "Hamas is the problem"....I must have missed the part where Hamas dropped 6 tons of bombs on refugee neighborhoods? I'm also disgusted by the increasing number of Jewish celebrities/comedians/actors/musicians just proudly espousing racism. (looking at you Amy Schumer, Chelsea Handler, Regina Spektor, etc etc)
In fairness, what exactly do you think Hamas would do if it had said “six ton bombs”?
That’s like saying “what would the Jews in Germany do if they had access to Gas Chambers?”
this is flipping my whole perspective on the holocaust fr
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israel is currently doing it's 20th 10/7 in a row
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israel is currently doing it's 20th 10/7 in a row
The death toll in Gaza is tragic. I just wanted to be sure that holocaust victims weren’t being compared to Hamas.
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I hope Israel stops the wholesale murder of innocent civilians and children.
That would really make my fucking weekend
pretty fucking crazy for people to say "Hamas is the problem"....I must have missed the part where Hamas dropped 6 tons of bombs on refugee neighborhoods? I'm also disgusted by the increasing number of Jewish celebrities/comedians/actors/musicians just proudly espousing racism. (looking at you Amy Schumer, Chelsea Handler, Regina Spektor, etc etc)
In fairness, what exactly do you think Hamas would do if it had said “six ton bombs”?
If Hamas had a "six ton bomb", Israel wouldn't be committing genocide in Palestine.
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israel is currently doing it's 20th 10/7 in a row
The death toll in Gaza is tragic. I just wanted to be sure that holocaust victims weren’t being compared to Hamas.
No one is. Just civilian Palestinians
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I hope Israel stops the wholesale murder of innocent civilians and children.
That would really make my fucking weekend
pretty fucking crazy for people to say "Hamas is the problem"....I must have missed the part where Hamas dropped 6 tons of bombs on refugee neighborhoods? I'm also disgusted by the increasing number of Jewish celebrities/comedians/actors/musicians just proudly espousing racism. (looking at you Amy Schumer, Chelsea Handler, Regina Spektor, etc etc)
In fairness, what exactly do you think Hamas would do if it had said “six ton bombs”?
If Hamas had a "six ton bomb", Israel wouldn't be committing genocide in Palestine.
Uhh what?
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As a Frenchman I
Let me write my feelings here..
This war is a terrible tragedy, on both sides. No innocent person deserves to die. These Hamas bastards have unleashed the extreme heat of a long-running war.
I'm afraid, yes, afraid when I get too interested in it, and I realize that what creates false information and extreme movements is social networks..
The problem, I have the impression in France, that racism has increased and that people judge all Arab people as terrorists.. And the problem is that in this war, the extreme movements simply forget the consequences of a terrible war on innocent children.. Some only see Palestine, others no longer want foreigners in France.. The conflict is in our country, and all of this fueled and pushed by these fucking social networks and information..
Final message, I hope that this war will end and that above all, we will be able to sort things out and no longer make prejudices.. I met survivors of the Second World War, and they all said one thing "Hate brings hate ".. :-\
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As a Frenchman I
Let me write my feelings here..
username checks out
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxCRbgkBui0
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJ9PKQbkJv8
For those that don't partake.
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I hope Israel stops the wholesale murder of innocent civilians and children.
That would really make my fucking weekend
pretty fucking crazy for people to say "Hamas is the problem"....I must have missed the part where Hamas dropped 6 tons of bombs on refugee neighborhoods? I'm also disgusted by the increasing number of Jewish celebrities/comedians/actors/musicians just proudly espousing racism. (looking at you Amy Schumer, Chelsea Handler, Regina Spektor, etc etc)
In fairness, what exactly do you think Hamas would do if it had said “six ton bombs”?
If Hamas had a "six ton bomb", Israel wouldn't be committing genocide in Palestine.
Uhh what?
If al-Qassam had regular access to guided munitions they’d primarily hit IDF targets.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJ9PKQbkJv8
For those that don't partake.
thank you for sharing
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Me and you will never see eye to eye on the history of Israel and Palestine but we can agree that things can not continue as they are and there needs to be a path forward where civilians don't pay the toll on either side. I feel for all the Jewish and Arab people around the world who will suffer hate as a result of what is going on in Israel and Palestine.
Catching up here, but this is definitely key (and all people affected). I also post so people know in real life in many places in NYC religious jews and muslims interact regularly (yes, even now), probably moreso than the average american interacts with each group.
This of course does not change the facts on the ground over there and everyone is free to speak their mind, but for those reading this in places that live in places that are not as diverse that dont get the opportunity to meet the "other" in real life, offline, if they are watching the news about the protests in DC and NYC they may get the wrong impression about how the average NYer is attempting to continue to interact with each other civilly. Certainly the frank conversations here present me with views maybe people I know dont tell me as strongly in person (though some of course do), which is also important to hear.
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storming hospitals is uncool
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storming hospitals is uncool
In real life, yes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SP9iKK1FgS4
When John Woo does it though...
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Hi guys,
Just a friendly update that There are now over 6000 children dead, with 7000 more women and children missing.
So you know, it’s probably more like 9000+ murdered children, with 10s of thousands more maimed while the world lets it happen.
So yeah. Bump.
Fuck this world.
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Hi guys,
Just a friendly update that There are now over 6000 children dead, with 7000 more women and children missing.
Do you know, probably more like 9000+ murdered children, with 10s of thousands more maimed while the world lets it happen.
So yeah. Bump.
Fuck this world.
Thinking back fondly to the "Israel wouldn't bomb a hospital/Hamas blew up their own hospital" discussion.
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So Israel knew a year ago about the planned attack…
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/30/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-attack-intelligence.html
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So Israel knew a year ago about the planned attack…
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/30/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-attack-intelligence.html
They also funded Hamas so they wouldn’t have to negotiate with PLO.
The plan is to push the Palestinian people to Rafah and eventually into Egypt. They want to drill for oil and expand settlements after getting rid of the civilians. Some Israeli politicians on the right are happily calling this the, “Gaza Nakba.”
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who cares what israel knew or funded - does that somehow take away from the righteousness of the Palestinian cause? no? then it's just more neoliberal hand-wringing while civilians are being bombed.
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who cares what israel knew or funded - does that somehow take away from the righteousness of the Palestinian cause? no? then it's just more neoliberal hand-wringing while civilians are being bombed.
Yeah, my cynical read on this story, especially coming out of the Times, was that it was able to provide cover for the American Liberal Zionist NYT reader who wants to blame the evil elected government of Israel for the problems, and not the structure of Zionism itself. This was a very prominent position from around the beginning of the Likud era until the slaughter in Gaza became undeniable, but it's the Times so they're always trying to wag the dog. And to their credit, the Venn diagram of "Likud-hating liberal Zionists" and "New York Times readers" is a circle.
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And to their credit, the Venn diagram of "Likud-hating liberal Zionists" and "New York Times readers" is a circle.
lol
also to their credit, they don't have anyone on the ground in Gaza so how could we expect them to report anything other than garbage
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It’s harder and harder for IDF to control the narrative even while they actively refuse access to Gaza / murder Palestinian journalists and their families.
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i know it's a skateboarding forum but silence equals death
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16c9ZWER6RM
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Hospitals bombed
Schools bombed
UN workers killed
Journalists murdered
And drumroll please……
OVER 10,000 CHILDREN MURDERED BY ISRAEL.
And the world sits (shits?) on its hands and allows it to continue.
I mean fuck, at least we fought the Nazis when their crimes were too horrific. We Americans just pay these fuckers to murder children and get what in return?
Fuck it all to hell.
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You forgot about the high percentage of Israel’s troops dying by friendly fire. They’re their own biggest danger.
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Can’t support either of these religions as they both force genital mutilation which is objectively wrong. The poor people who subscribe to them are absolutely brainwashed. Can’t believe circumcision is still happening in such huge numbers worldwide, around 1/3. That is a very large number of people who are easily fooled and could be utilized in horrible ways for powerful people’s evil bidding
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I mean it's also a beef between Russia and America.
It's in the interest of Russia to have the conflict unresolved by the time they can reopen the black sea.
They can pipeline all trade through Iran to India.
The US is interested in Israel taking control of the whole region so it will go back business as usual for western powers.
They wanna hold on to India. But the routes are totally fucked up too.
So the us and Israel will focus attention on ending the attacks on trade in the Red Sea and Southern Saudi Arabia.
After Israel has all the high ground between them and the west bank
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Can’t support either of these religions as they both force genital mutilation which is objectively wrong. The poor people who subscribe to them are absolutely brainwashed. Can’t believe circumcision is still happening in such huge numbers worldwide, around 1/3. That is a very large number of people who are easily fooled and could be utilized in horrible ways for powerful people’s evil bidding
Cool. So in a situation where all parties wielded uncut cocks, you theoretically might concern yourself with an ongoing genocide. Got it. Glad you chimed in.
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Can’t support either of these religions as they both force genital mutilation which is objectively wrong. The poor people who subscribe to them are absolutely brainwashed. Can’t believe circumcision is still happening in such huge numbers worldwide, around 1/3. That is a very large number of people who are easily fooled and could be utilized in horrible ways for powerful people’s evil bidding
http://reddit.com
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Sir this is a Wendy’s.
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guess it has nothing to do with the war but anyway circumcision on infants is still very very wrong and i have yet to hear any logical reason this has not been banned.
I also think a lot of Muslims are still way behind in how they are treating women and definitely not accepting towards gay etc. I am not trying to paint them as all bad people because I think Israeli are also fucked as I said in the beginning. The way they took the land in the first place was super fucked. The whole installation is fucked. I have a couple Muslim friends and I understand their side of it. But they even told me themselves they see a lot of the see people protesting the genocide and straight up some of these people they are defending would murder them if they had the chance for their beliefs.
The point I was making was the brainwashing runs so so generationally deep that is why we have these fucked up extremist. If you are willing to cut an infants fick what else you willing to do..
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guess it has nothing to do with the war but anyway circumcision on infants is still very very wrong and i have yet to hear any logical reason this has not been banned.
I also think a lot of Muslims are still way behind in how they are treating women and definitely not accepting towards gay etc. I am not trying to paint them as all bad people because I think Israeli are also fucked as I said in the beginning. The way they took the land in the first place was super fucked. The whole installation is fucked. I have a couple Muslim friends and I understand their side of it. But they even told me themselves they see a lot of the see people protesting the genocide and straight up some of these people they are defending would murder them if they had the chance for their beliefs.
The point I was making was the brainwashing runs so so generationally deep that is why we have these fucked up extremist. If you are willing to cut an infants fick what else you willing to do..
Framing the massacre in Gaza as some kind of new-atheist style "battle of extremists" is incredibly lamebrained and demonstrates a childish understanding of the world.
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I just don’t want to bum anyone out sorry I brought this up it’s not really relevant to this genocide that is going on. I just want world peace for everyone in the end and I am sorry if my words were construed for you to think otherwise because that was never my intention.
I didn’t mean to say one group worse than another I just thought both of these religions are doing something that I personally find very wrong right out the gate but I shouldn’t have connected that to what is going on right now.
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Regardless of whether or not you like this podcast, would highly recommend listening to this conversation with Maen.
https://open.spotify.com/episode/4iSRkxKZoDimVxXM7e3hjO?si=PR-P2VWMQ067dA9Cw6UFIg (https://open.spotify.com/episode/4iSRkxKZoDimVxXM7e3hjO?si=PR-P2VWMQ067dA9Cw6UFIg)
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Hello SLAP,
Your genocide update for today.
The Israeli government has now not only murdered over 10,000 children, but left
-over 18000 children injured
-24000 to 25000 children without one parent or orphaned completely
-640000 with homes destroyed
And that’s not even counting innocent adults.
Israel also cannot find any beheaded babies, nor any victims of rape in the Oct 7th attacks, both stories were essential in propagandizing the population and creating support towards the Gazan ethnic cleansing.
Governments that kill like this should not be allowed to exist.
I have no problem with the elimination of Hamas. I have no problems with the elimination of the Israeli government.
PS - to the person steadily kooking me for posting this, you do you I guess. I kind of feel sorry for you.
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Hello SLAP,
Your genocide update for today.
The Israeli government has now not only murdered over 10,000 children, but left
-over 18000 children injured
-24000 to 25000 children without one parent or orphaned completely
-640000 with homes destroyed
And that’s not even counting innocent adults.
Israel also cannot find any beheaded babies, nor any victims of rape in the Oct 7th attacks, both stories were essential in propagandizing the population and creating support towards the Gazan ethnic cleansing.
Governments that kill like this should not be allowed to exist.
I have no problem with the elimination of Hamas. I have no problems with the elimination of the Israeli government.
PS - to the person steadily kooking me for posting this, you do you I guess. I kind of feel sorry for you.
thanks for posting this
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https://theintercept.com/2024/01/10/israel-disinformation-social-media-iron-truth/
Pro-Israel tech workers brag about how they use the, “Iron Truth,” bot to take down pro-Palestine information.
Fuck Israel.
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Do you guys actually believe the Israelis made up that women and children were raped, sexually tortured and killed? There is a huge amount of evidence that this occurred.
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Do you guys actually believe the Israelis made up that women and children were raped, sexually tortured and killed? There is a huge amount of evidence that this occurred.
Even if it was true, that would be on Hamas, not the palestinians.
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why couldnt they just let the palestinians just stay there? i dont see how this is better... seems like they ruined any sort of holy land vibe if you ask me. now its just gonna be all bombed and desert and shit.
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why couldnt they just let the palestinians just stay there? i dont see how this is better... seems like they ruined any sort of holy land vibe if you ask me. now its just gonna be all bombed and desert and shit.
https://www.aljazeera.com/program/newsfeed/2023/12/19/israeli-real-estate-firm-pushes-settlement-building-in-gaza
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Do you guys actually believe the Israelis made up that women and children were raped, sexually tortured and killed? There is a huge amount of evidence that this occurred.
The case against Israel is damning.
https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2024/1/11/icj-hears-south-africas-genocide-case-against-israel-over-gaza-war
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Do you guys actually believe the Israelis made up that women and children were raped, sexually tortured and killed? There is a huge amount of evidence that this occurred.
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/war-gaza-israeli-police-having-difficulty-finding-sexual-assault-victims-7-october-attack-says
And zero evidence for beheaded babies.
You are goddamn right I don’t believe Israel. Or any other government that claims this. Neither should you. Because there are the same stories that float around and become propaganda to justify all sorts of illegal military incursions. The US used it in Iraq.
And I expect same as there, it will be proved false.
It doesn’t matter though, because the usefulness of the lie did the trick, and the genocide was allowed to go forward.
But sure, let’s see the “huge amount of evidence”
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AFAIK the primary "evidence" in the US for these particular claims is an article from the front page of the New York Times in which not a single primary source is quoted or even spoken to.
As for these sorts of claims, it's exactly the sort of thing which western intelligence and their lackeys in the media have cooked up for decades. I'm old enough to remember when the Iraqi army threw babies out of incubators (https://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0906/p25s02-cogn.html).
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Really seems like Israel is going to get their wish - dragging the US into their genocidal regional conflict. Sleepy Joe is powerless against the charms of Philly’s local hero Bibi.
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him and famous white rapper lil dickey are from the same town (cheltenham. total dump)
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spectral image-- zersetzung zersetzung zersetzung? I would love for one of our German historians to comment on the usage of this phrase by you here. I wonder if we know each other in real life. You seem to know a lot about the Philly suburbs-- can you guess which one I am from? ha. Honestly, there are so many more compelling ways to argue against Israeli's current military actions without going there. Though, as with you, I feel sorry for those spending their time downvoting me (and both of us). I dont think there is any harm in us continuing this conversation as we have in a civil manner. For all I know "many snakes" and I are related (8th cousins once removed)? as he seems to know alot about the Philly area and leftist politics. Edit; Just to be clear-- I dont think I actually know any of you, but we all seem to be from the same area and maybe more demographically similar than not, so I just had to make the joke!
That said- Although history doesn't start at October 7-- yes, this war in fact started with terrorists attacking a Simchat Torah holiday party, killing women and children, and taking hostages, some of whom are still hostage.
I feel horribly for everyone effected by military action, both in Gaza and Israel (and everyone else in the world were there are ongoing conflicts). I hope for peace for all. Sorry for all those affected. We are all humans!
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I don’t necessarily understand Israel’s long game here.
If it’s truly to eliminate Hamas, they’re doing a real shit job of making sure this doesn’t create a new generation of organizations who want them dead.
If it’s poorly veiled ethnic cleansing like most Americans under 40 believe, then how does Israel expect to be supported by America once the current generation of leaders pass away?
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https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/01/un-experts-demand-accountability-victims-sexual-torture-and-unlawful
(In reference to Many Snake's post above)
There is much more I could share, but everyone can feel free to google.
To the poster's above, I know y'all dont believe this, but the end game of the AVERAGE ISRAELI is to free the hostages and exact punishment on Hamas for the October 7 attacks.
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I don’t necessarily understand Israel’s long game here.
1. If it’s truly to eliminate Hamas, they’re doing a real shit job of making sure this doesn’t create a new generation of organizations who want them dead.
If it’s poorly veiled ethnic cleansing like most Americans under 40 believe, then how does 2. Israel expect to be supported by America once the current generation of leaders pass away?
1. I don't think that they do truly want to eliminate Hamas. Hamas attacks on Israel continue to drive the U.S. and other nations giving them money.
2. They probably see the political weather over here, and they we seem to be electing an alarming amount of christian fundamentalists into government. Those people will never stop giving money to the state of Israel, because if Israel goes away, then they don't get to have their little armageddon.
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"the hague will not stop us"
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"the hague will not stop us"
The OG genociders, Germany, says we’re not genociding hard enough.
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I tuned into a webinar this morning:
(https://i.imgur.com/3Ru8kVI.png)
Many people introduced themselves at the beginning in the text chat and I saw a handful of familiar names from the skate world.
The speakers dropped a ton of knowledge. It was pretty emotional at times, especially when hearing from the skater located in Ramallah.
Supposedly the webinar recording will be made available at some point down the road. The speakers mentioned there were about 120 in attendance.
https://www.instagram.com/skateboarderspalestinealliance/
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https://apple.news/ADjtYUd3uR_eaMkZ3bhCZjw
Israel is being more vocal about pushing Palestinians out of Gaza and West Bank for more settlements.
It’s so hard for Israelis to treat Palestinians as people that the only viable solution is to get rid of them. But, Israelis are the real victims, and if you say otherwise, you’re an anti-Semite.
Silas posts pro-Palestine content in his IG stories. Next board I get will have his name on it.
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While I still don't feel comfortable opining on the actual underlying conflict between these two countries -- as an outsider with friends who support both sides, it still seems not my place -- I am curious about ppl here's thoughts on Aaron Bushnell and his recent self-immolation protest.
Did his actions serve its purpose (it did get me to pay attn to the conflict again)?
Was he acting in his right mind? Does it matter?
Does it matter who utilizes self-immolation as a form of protest? Does a relative outsider taking the action give the act any more or less (or equal) validity as someone who has a concrete connection to the underlying conflict? Not sure of Bushnell's religious beliefs, if any, but does his being in the military affect how folks perceive the weight of the actions he took?
Really just curious. It's sad -- sad situation all around -- but this young man apparently wanted to add to the discussion, so I feel it's a topic not off-limits.
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he will be welcomed at the gates of heaven as a truly compassionate and merciful soul, forever lol at the cops who drew guns down on a charred corpse. fuck da USA
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not surprised to hear you're a fencewalking bitch tho Eddie
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My shit got removed cause I called him a idiot?
Seriously explain to me how thats not the stupidest move you can pull
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https://plumvillage.org/about/thich-nhat-hanh/letters/in-search-of-the-enemy-of-man
In Search of the Enemy of Man
A letter to the Rev. Martin Luther King from Thich Nhat Hanh, sent on June 1, 1965. It was their first contact and they met for the first time in Chicago, a year later, on 31 May 1966.
The self-burning of Vietnamese Buddhist monks in 1963 is somehow difficult for the Western Christian conscience to understand. The Press spoke then of suicide, but in the essence, it is not. It is not even a protest.
What the monks said in the letters they left before burning themselves aimed only at alarming, at moving the hearts of the oppressors and at calling the attention of the world to the suffering endured then by the Vietnamese. To burn oneself by fire is to prove that what one is saying is of the utmost importance. There is nothing more painful than burning oneself. To say something while experiencing this kind of pain is to say it with the utmost of courage, frankness, determination and sincerity.
During the ceremony of ordination, as practiced in the Mahayana tradition, the monk-candidate is required to burn one, or more, small spots on his body in taking the vow to observe the 250 rules of a bhikshu, to live the life of a monk, to attain enlightenment and to devote his life to the salvation of all beings. One can, of course, say these things while sitting in a comfortable armchair; but when the words are uttered while kneeling before the community of sangha and experiencing this kind of pain, they will express all the seriousness of one’s heart and mind, and carry much greater weight.
The Vietnamese monk, by burning himself, say with all his strengh [sic] and determination that he can endure the greatest of sufferings to protect his people. But why does he have to burn himself to death? The difference between burning oneself and burning oneself to death is only a difference in degree, not in nature. A man who burns himself too much must die. The importance is not to take one’s life, but to burn. What he really aims at is the expression of his will and determination, not death.
In the Buddhist belief, life is not confined to a period of 60 or 80 or 100 years: life is eternal. Life is not confined to this body: life is universal. To express will by burning oneself, therefore, is not to commit an act of destruction but to perform an act of construction, i.e., to suffer and to die for the sake of one’s people. This is not suicide. Suicide is an act of self-destruction, having as causes the following:
lack of courage to live and to cope with difficulties
defeat by life and loss of all hope
desire for non-existence (abhava)
This self-destruction is considered by Buddhism as one of the most serious crimes. The monk who burns himself has lost neither courage nor hope; nor does he desire non-existence. On the contrary, he is very courageous and hopeful and aspires for something good in the future. He does not think that he is destroying himself; he believes in the good fruition of his act of self-sacrifice for the sake of others. Like the Buddha in one of his former lives — as told in a story of Jataka — who gave himself to a hungry lion which was about to devour her own cubs, the monk believes he is practicing the doctrine of highest compassion by sacrificing himself in order to call the attention of, and to seek help from, the people of the world.
I am sure that since you have been engaged in one of the hardest struggles for equality and human rights, you are among those who understand fully, and who share with all their hearts, the indescribable suffering of the Vietnamese people. The world’s greatest humanists would not remain silent. You yourself can not remain silent.
I believe with all my heart that the monks who burned themselves did not aim at the death of the oppressors but only at a change in their policy. Their enemies are not man. They are intolerance, fanaticism, dictatorship, cupidity, hatred and discrimination which lie within the heart of man. I also believe with all my being that the struggle for equality and freedom you lead in Birmingham, Alabama… is not aimed at the whites but only at intolerance, hatred and discrimination. These are real enemies of man — not man himself. In our unfortunate father land we are trying to yield desperately: do not kill man, even in man’s name. Please kill the real enemies of man which are present everywhere, in our very hearts and minds.
Now in the confrontation of the big powers occurring in our country, hundreds and perhaps thousands of Vietnamese peasants and children lose their lives every day, and our land is unmercifully and tragically torn by a war which is already twenty years old. I am sure that since you have been engaged in one of the hardest struggles for equality and human rights, you are among those who understand fully, and who share with all their hearts, the indescribable suffering of the Vietnamese people. The world’s greatest humanists would not remain silent. You yourself can not remain silent.
America is said to have a strong religious foundation and spiritual leaders would not allow American political and economic doctrines to be deprived of the spiritual element. You cannot be silent since you have already been in action and you are in action because, in you, God is in action, too — to use Karl Barth’s expression. And Albert Schweitzer, with his stress on the reverence for life and Paul Tillich with his courage to be, and thus, to love. And Niebuhr. And Mackay. And Fletcher. And Donald Harrington.
All these religious humanists, and many more, are not going to favour the existence of a shame such as the one mankind has to endure in Vietnam. Recently a young Buddhist monk named Thich Giac Thanh burned himself to call the attention of the world to the suffering endured by the Vietnamese, the suffering caused by this unnecessary war — and you know that war is never necessary. Another young Buddhist, a nun named Hue Thien was about to sacrifice herself in the same way and with the same intent, but her will was not fulfilled because she did not have the time to strike a match before people saw and interfered. Nobody here wants the war. What is the war for, then? And whose is the war?
Yesterday in a class meeting, a student of mine prayed: “Lord Buddha, help us to be alert to realize that we are not victims of each other. We are victims of our own ignorance and the ignorance of others. Help us to avoid engaging ourselves more in mutual slaughter because of the will of others to power and to predominance.” In writing to you, as a Buddhist, I profess my faith in Love, in Communion and in the World’s Humanists whose thoughts and attitude should be the guide for all human kind in finding who is the real enemy of Man.
June 1, 1965
NHAT HANH
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Thats what your gonna go for, you really think that shits cool huh
This site is fuckin cooked
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https://www.instagram.com/p/C31jGfosyKJ/?igsh=eWZqaGRvd2FkZnFx
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Lol
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https://www.instagram.com/p/C32vxGdOQTy/?igsh=MXB2cWJ2NWRxemJjeg==
This child starved to death in North Gaza because aid trucks have been attacked continuously.
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^
In addition to attacking aid trucks, Israeli citizens are blocking roads to prevent aid from going into Gaza. They're supported by Israeli army and police. How the fuck is starving children to death fighting Hamas? Fuck Israel and anyone who supports that country.
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Maybe it would be smartest for the palestinian people to not do terror attacks on the stronger nation knowing their gonna get their shit fucked up afterwards over and over again
I dont give a fuck about israel either, they can both kill eachother over there for all I care
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Maybe it would be smartest for the palestinian people to not do terror attacks on the stronger nation knowing their gonna get their shit fucked up afterwards over and over again
I dont give a fuck about israel either, they can both kill eachother over there for all I care
You smoke bong longs with cigarette butt tobacco dont you? Sprayed CBD, spice, and dirty water
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Not going to tolerate that nonsense. User posted Ben Shapiro gif in another thread so I know what it really believes. They can argue their perspective on facebook. Slap cares about the kids.
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(https://i.ibb.co/g6kwgNN/Screenshot-20240227-153208.png)
The false nation of israel and it's supporters can suck the biggest fart from my asshole. After speaking to multiple IDF soldiers who gleefully boasted about murdering civilians like it was a badge of honor, they're nothing more in my mind than a modern day Third Reich.
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he will be welcomed at the gates of heaven as a truly compassionate and merciful soul, forever lol at the cops who drew guns down on a charred corpse. fuck da USA
this. RIP Aaron. Those of us who stand with Palestinians recognize him as a hero in this revolution. His words and actions were powerful. I wish the genocide was over months ago so he didn't feel compelled to carry out this form of protest. Reprehensible that the US has vetoed a ceasefire three times now, just disgusting.
Was with my extended family this weekend and we got into it about Palestine. My grandmother who has a PhD in molecular genetics from Yale tried telling me Palestinians were caucasian like us. LMFAO. I had to tell her three times that Palestinians are largely black and brown ethnic arabs. This is the kind of stupidity we're up against. Just mind-blowing.
FREE PALESTINE
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Seeing people who are still in the middle on this are giving me a stomach ache.
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I can’t fathom how the rest of the world can keep turning a blind eye to all this.
It’s not even about picking a side, but recognizing the horrible war crimes israel is committing and saying something.
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I've hesitated to wade back into this and may get me banned, but has to be said- for those of us whose family was killed on October 7 or remain hostage, we obviously have a different view then you overall despite what we may think about specific Israeli military actions. Regardless, hoping and praying for peace for all. World needs less states and flags and more compassion.
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I've hesitated to wade back into this and may get me banned, but has to be said- for those of us whose family was killed on October 7 or remain hostage, we obviously have a different view then you overall despite what we may think about specific Israeli military actions. Regardless, hoping and praying for peace for all. World needs less states and flags and more compassion.
You're not going to be banned unless you say something bigoted. Congrats on victimizing yourself, though.
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I've hesitated to wade back into this and may get me banned, but has to be said- for those of us whose family was killed on October 7 or remain hostage, we obviously have a different view then you overall despite what we may think about specific Israeli military actions. Regardless, hoping and praying for peace for all. World needs less states and flags and more compassion.
Not my intent -- further "kooked" I should have said maybe. Clearly I'm not a victim as an American in NYC. Not going to edit as I dont want to gaslight you.
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nice name change @bronxriverkook
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At least 104 people have been killed and hundreds injured in Gaza after Israeli forces opened fire as they were waiting for food, according to the Palestinian Ministry of Health in Gaza. The Israel Defense Forces said "the incident is under review."
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https://www.instagram.com/p/C38GA5ZxjgQ/?igsh=bGlhbnFzcWxkeXls
Is there anyone willing to tread into Telegram where there are apparently Israel accounts celebrating their cruelty and carnage? I can barely stomach this much.
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I'm not on Telegram and have heard alot of it is propaganda and fake posts. I sincerely hope that isn't an Israeli posting like that. I've never heard and Israeli or jew talk like that-- it is disgusting if true. That said, I could search the internet for nasty posts about killing people attributed to posters of other religions and groups, but would not do that as I know a lot of comments and posts on the internet are propaganda meant to turn human beings against each other for the clicks, to he benefit of foreign powers, etc.
I know many people from "the other" religion in real life, and know they really aren't talking like that (at least not to me) when they criticize Israel/Jews (versus what people say online), so I assume alot of it is bullshit, posted by Nazis, bots etc..
There is enough slanted/negative allegations against Israel on legit, if biased, news sites like Al Jazeera. Why try to use Telegram as evidence or use Telegram at all?
I hope you are able to think about the folks you know from this group if any and try to consider what is real and what is propaganda.
To the person pointing out my name change-- so what? Clearly I'm not pretending to be a different person.. Even called out my name change in the thread that inspired it. I'm open about what religion/ethnicity I'm from. Peace and love, all!
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I think I have seen enough photos and videos of IDF troops being completely inappropriate and unprofessional. They are definitely not being called out by their fellow soldiers as they make their videos and take photos of themselves looting. It’s disgusting and not faked.
This is how their officials regard starving Palestinian people and the massacre.
https://www.instagram.com/reel/C387U3bpxQL/?igsh=MXVlMzZwc3BhZTRxMw==
The doctors that attempted to save the victims didn’t find any injuries from trampling or bruising. It was all bullets, artillery and shrapnel along with vehicle related injuries.
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Don't worry guys. Apparently we're going to airdrop supplies into Gaza for the Palestinians. We definitely won't be discontinuing our military aid which helps create the need for us to drop supplies in the first place though.
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Not even going to bother reading this thread, the ukraine war threads were a disaster, so i’m assuming these 9 pages of discussion are a disaster too. Anyway, if you still try to defend isn’trael, genocide joe and zionists, at this point, when we’re all witnessing the first genocide of this century, please, enroll in the IDF and go catch a .50 cal sniper round to the face. You deserve nothing less, nothing more. Rot in piss motherfuckers.
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Not even going to bother reading this thread, the ukraine war threads were a disaster, so i’m assuming these 9 pages of discussion are a disaster too. Anyway, if you still try to defend isn’trael, genocide joe and zionists, at this point, when we’re all witnessing the first genocide of this century, please, enroll in the IDF and go catch a .50 cal sniper round to the face. You deserve nothing less, nothing more. Rot in piss motherfuckers.
What does it feel like to be an annoying (I assume European?) spending your time spouting nonsense and propaganda and bashing America on an American skateboarding message board? Anti- American post, and posting a book by a European noble who enjoyed cos-playing as an arab and got some propaganda published after he ran away from his mommy and daddy and got upset Britain pulled back from Israel to the books thread in one fell swoop. You must be a real pleasure in real life. Feel free to keep telling me I deserve to be shot in the face on the interwebs dude. Very persuasive and you really scared me.
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Not even going to bother reading this thread, the ukraine war threads were a disaster, so i’m assuming these 9 pages of discussion are a disaster too. Anyway, if you still try to defend isn’trael, genocide joe and zionists, at this point, when we’re all witnessing the first genocide of this century, please, enroll in the IDF and go catch a .50 cal sniper round to the face. You deserve nothing less, nothing more. Rot in piss motherfuckers.
What does it feel like to be an annoying (I assume European?) spending your time spouting nonsense and propaganda and bashing America on an American skateboarding message board? Anti- American post, and posting a book by a European noble who enjoyed cos-playing as an arab and got some propaganda published after he ran away from his mommy and daddy and got upset Britain pulled back from Israel to the books thread in one fell swoop. You must be a real pleasure in real life. Feel free to keep telling me I deserve to be shot in the face on the interwebs dude. Very persuasive and you really scared me.
In regard to trying to defend Isntreal at this point I agree with him it is absurd with how much we have seen via Instagram alone to believe otherwise.
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Not even going to bother reading this thread, the ukraine war threads were a disaster, so i’m assuming these 9 pages of discussion are a disaster too. Anyway, if you still try to defend isn’trael, genocide joe and zionists, at this point, when we’re all witnessing the first genocide of this century, please, enroll in the IDF and go catch a .50 cal sniper round to the face. You deserve nothing less, nothing more. Rot in piss motherfuckers.
Anti- American post, and posting a book by a European noble who enjoyed cos-playing as an arab and got some propaganda published after he ran away from his mommy and daddy and got upset Britain pulled back from Israel to the books thread in one fell swoop.
The most eloquent Zionist.
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SPA webinar 1 : why should the global skateboarding industry take a position on Palestine and how?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQLU1QvzQSw
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Not even going to bother reading this thread, the ukraine war threads were a disaster, so i’m assuming these 9 pages of discussion are a disaster too. Anyway, if you still try to defend isn’trael, genocide joe and zionists, at this point, when we’re all witnessing the first genocide of this century, please, enroll in the IDF and go catch a .50 cal sniper round to the face. You deserve nothing less, nothing more. Rot in piss motherfuckers.
Anti- American post, and posting a book by a European noble who enjoyed cos-playing as an arab and got some propaganda published after he ran away from his mommy and daddy and got upset Britain pulled back from Israel to the books thread in one fell swoop.
The most eloquent Zionist.
If I can't make run on sentences here, then where? If not now, when?
My job in this thread is to try to encourage kids to get off Instagram and Telegram and consult legitimate news sources, and to hopefully humanize Jews for them.
Obviously the "Israel is a fake colonialist project' crowd in France or wherever is not going to be swayed. Feel free to keep downvoting me everyone and wishing death on me :) Happy Monday ! Hopefully y'all spend some time doing something productive this week.
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Eat my shorts.
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Eat my shorts.
Why not just threaten to kill me directly? That would be more persuasive then a bart Simpson quote. You got close enough :)
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Why not just threaten to kill me directly? That would be more persuasive then a bart Simpson quote. You got close enough :)
Cute
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It's gross that you think reporting on social media is illegitimate because the TV news doesn't want to report what's actually happening. We saw enough of that with BLM protests being reported as violent riots by news outlets.
I'm a former military photojournalist with a background in public affairs so that is the lens I view military reporting.
The people trying to legitimize a genocide are doing a piss poor job in front of the press by the way.
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It's gross that you think reporting on social media is illegitimate because the TV news doesn't want to report what's actually happening. We saw enough of that with BLM protests being reported as violent riots by news outlets.
I'm a former military photojournalist with a background in public affairs so that is the lens I view military reporting.
The people trying to legitimize a genocide are doing a piss poor job in front of the press by the way.
Yes, I tend to think alot of stuff on social media is bullshit. Appreciate your qualifications and dont doubt that alot of military reporting (all) is propaganda. That said, do you think Al Jazeera is pro Isreal? Or the BBC? Just trying to understand your view. I view them as extremely biased in the other direction, but at least we know its not Russian bot gibberish propaganda.
That said- I know the person you posted is a real IDF representative (dont know the context or whether that clip was cut). I dont think everything on instagram is false. I do think Telegram in particular is a hotbed for mininformation, and to a lesser extent Instagram. I do think its absurd that this generation is attempting to get all their news in 10 second instagram clips and erase my people's existence from history (the good old Israel fake type comments).
I do think Newguy's post was particularly nasty, and without knowing anything else about him aside from what he posted yesterday in various threads on this board, would guess he is probably a upper class European under 25 who spends alot of time on social media and believes it all, and has a lot of guilt for various things and enjoys being condescending.
I would be shocked if I'm wrong, but maybe hes really a working class guy from LA in his 40s and is a man of the people or someone I coexist with in NYC. I won't ask him to share some skate clips, but I'm so tempted. I got no clips to share, though :)
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do you believe israel's campaign in gaza is justified y/n
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@SpuytenDuvyilEphemera
Sounds like your lens is dirty or cracked and everyone knows it but you.
I don't label entire actual news outlets as extremely biased to justify whatever view I hold. I take each story individually at face value and decipher it. Who is trying to make me think what and how much actual news reporting does it contain? Who benefits?
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The entire “mass rape” narrative of October 7 is a demonstrated falsehood being pushed by the New York Times and agents of Israeli intelligence.
https://theintercept.com/2024/02/28/new-york-times-anat-schwartz-october-7/
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The entire “mass rape” narrative of October 7 is a demonstrated falsehood being pushed by the New York Times and agents of Israeli intelligence.
https://theintercept.com/2024/02/28/new-york-times-anat-schwartz-october-7/
Fun fact, the NYT is trying to catch the mole that leaked the story to the Intercept and is interrogating people based on their ethnicity, you can’t make this shit up.
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The entire “mass rape” narrative of October 7 is a demonstrated falsehood being pushed by the New York Times and agents of Israeli intelligence.
https://theintercept.com/2024/02/28/new-york-times-anat-schwartz-october-7/
Fun fact, the NYT is trying to catch the mole that leaked the story to the Intercept and is interrogating people based on their ethnicity, you can’t make this shit up.
Reading about that now. What a den of vipers that place is.
https://www.npr.org/2024/03/03/1235606433/an-investigation-into-a-new-york-times-story-is-causing-internal-chaos-at-the-co
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Same shit different assholes. Read up on the Samson option
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samson_Option
Ps. Keep the kooks coming you zionist pigs!
(https://forum.politics.be/attachment.php?attachmentid=43147&d=1229556278)
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do you believe israel's campaign in gaza is justified y/n
I do, absolutely, hamas needs to go
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do you believe israel's campaign in gaza is justified y/n
(https://i.imgflip.com/8giymj.jpg)
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do you believe israel's campaign in gaza is justified y/n
this is not the view espoused in the green book colonel, i think we have an imposter in our midst
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do you believe israel's campaign in gaza is justified y/n
You’re just going to get banned again. I already know who you are.
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https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/3/4/reasonable-grounds-to-believe-hamas-committed-sexual-violence-un
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/04/un-envoy-reports-on-accounts-of-hamas-raping-and-torturing-israeli-hostages
https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/05/middleeast/gaza-hamas-ceasefire-israel-intl/index.html
Yes, I believe Hamas should be taken out of power. I do feel for those in Gaza and wish for an end to the conflict. Hamas needs to step down from power and release the hostages they've taken, especially women and children. I hope that was a clear enough answer- I can't say that anything any military does in war is "justified", but do know there is a difference between war and terrorism.
Just for those keeping score at home as to the rules on Slap: say Hamas should be taken out of power? threatened banned. Say folks on this board who have a different political view then you should be shot: totally cool.
Ultimately, for those that have been brainwashed to view the Israelis as colonizing nazis, I understand that you dont care if these hostages are returned or that women at a rave were raped and killed for their ethnicity. I'm sorry for the innocent people being affected on both sides and dont pretend to have a solution.
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That user has been banned before for other transgressions. Trying to evade a ban is a ban worthy offense.
You should tie your knees to your chair since they’re just jerking all over the place.
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That user has been banned before for other transgressions. Trying to evade a ban is a ban worthy offense.
You should tie your knees to your chair since they’re just jerking all over the place.
You seem really paranoid
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https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/3/4/reasonable-grounds-to-believe-hamas-committed-sexual-violence-un
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/04/un-envoy-reports-on-accounts-of-hamas-raping-and-torturing-israeli-hostages
https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/05/middleeast/gaza-hamas-ceasefire-israel-intl/index.html
Yes, I believe Hamas should be taken out of power. I do feel for those in Gaza and wish for an end to the conflict. Hamas needs to step down from power and release the hostages they've taken, especially women and children. I hope that was a clear enough answer- I can't say that anything any military does in war is "justified", but do know there is a difference between war and terrorism.
Just for those keeping score at home as to the rules on Slap: say Hamas should be taken out of power? threatened banned. Say folks on this board who have a different political view then you should be shot: totally cool.
Ultimately, for those that have been brainwashed to view the Israelis as colonizing nazis, I understand that you dont care if these hostages are returned or that women at a rave were raped and killed for their ethnicity. I'm sorry for the innocent people being affected on both sides and dont pretend to have a solution.
If Hamas cease to exist hypothetically and Gaza and the Palestinians were just left to the Israelis what do you believe would be their future realistically?
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how do we "solve" the palestinian "problem"
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https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/3/4/reasonable-grounds-to-believe-hamas-committed-sexual-violence-un
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/04/un-envoy-reports-on-accounts-of-hamas-raping-and-torturing-israeli-hostages
https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/05/middleeast/gaza-hamas-ceasefire-israel-intl/index.html
Yes, I believe Hamas should be taken out of power. I do feel for those in Gaza and wish for an end to the conflict. Hamas needs to step down from power and release the hostages they've taken, especially women and children. I hope that was a clear enough answer- I can't say that anything any military does in war is "justified", but do know there is a difference between war and terrorism.
Just for those keeping score at home as to the rules on Slap: say Hamas should be taken out of power? threatened banned. Say folks on this board who have a different political view then you should be shot: totally cool.
Ultimately, for those that have been brainwashed to view the Israelis as colonizing nazis, I understand that you dont care if these hostages are returned or that women at a rave were raped and killed for their ethnicity. I'm sorry for the innocent people being affected on both sides and dont pretend to have a solution.
Israhell just want to take over Gaza and all Palestine.
October 7th was the perfect excuse for them to totally annihilate Palestinian people and their land like they have making for the last 75 years with total support from western world and specially USA because of economic interests.
This whole conflict has not started on October 7th, and if I was in a country where a made up country founded by rich Zionists who were occupying, killing, stealing, incarceration, humiliating my people and my country I would too become a fighter.
Some people call Hamas terrorists, well I just think they are a natural reaction of Palestinian people against Israhell.
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https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/3/4/reasonable-grounds-to-believe-hamas-committed-sexual-violence-un
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/04/un-envoy-reports-on-accounts-of-hamas-raping-and-torturing-israeli-hostages
https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/05/middleeast/gaza-hamas-ceasefire-israel-intl/index.html
Yes, I believe Hamas should be taken out of power. I do feel for those in Gaza and wish for an end to the conflict. Hamas needs to step down from power and release the hostages they've taken, especially women and children. I hope that was a clear enough answer- I can't say that anything any military does in war is "justified", but do know there is a difference between war and terrorism.
Just for those keeping score at home as to the rules on Slap: say Hamas should be taken out of power? threatened banned. Say folks on this board who have a different political view then you should be shot: totally cool.
Ultimately, for those that have been brainwashed to view the Israelis as colonizing nazis, I understand that you dont care if these hostages are returned or that women at a rave were raped and killed for their ethnicity. I'm sorry for the innocent people being affected on both sides and dont pretend to have a solution.
Israhell just want to take over Gaza and all Palestine.
October 7th was the perfect excuse to them to totally annihilate Palestinian people and their land like they have making for the last 75 years with total support from western world and specially USA because of economic interests.
This whole conflict has not started on October 7th, if I were in a country where there was a invented country by rich zionists were invading, killing, stealing, incarceration, humiliating my people and my country I would to would become a fighter.
Some people call Hamas terrorists, well I just thing they are a natural reaction of Palestinian people against Israhell.
History certainly didnt start October 7: I would love for you to review the many links and references I've posted in this very thread regarding the historical fact of large amounts of Jews living in Israel prior to the advent of modern day nationalist zionism, and the many attacks against them for hundreds of years. Let me know if I should pull the citations back to the front page. In addition, post-zionism, jews were kicked out of the vast majority of the Middle East following those countries failed attacks on Israel, all the jews' properties and wealth across the Middle East confiscated, and sent to Israel with nothing, many on foot. "Rich", indeed. Yes, I know people who were refugees from Syria, Morocco, Egypt, Yemen and ended up in tent refugee camps in Israel.
Do these events give Israelis the carte blanche to kill Palestinians or mistreat anyone? Of course not.
Question: why doesn't this same logic apply when the violence goes the other way in an attack aimed at civilians at a dance party on a holiday?
If you think the folks who killed and raped a bunch of unarmed civilians (yes, triggering this war) are heroes, or that Israel allowed October 7 to happen and kids to be kidnapped so they could start a war, we likely dont have much to discuss.
In any event, I dont believe you'd be a freedom fighter regardless of the circumstances. You are a keyboard warrior on the interwebs!
To the other poster above asking me about a future without Hamas: I dont pretend to know what would happen if Hamas didn't exist, but I can guess that the Palestinian people wouldn't be spending all their international aid on a vast network of tunnels and weapons and enriching the leaders of Hamas who are billionaires and live in Qatar, executing "spies" and LGBTQ people, etc. Portraying Hamas as liberal freedom fighters really isn't the way to shower yourself in glory here.
Again, as I end most of these posts, peace to everyone and hopefully this conflict ends soon.
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https://www.reddit.com/r/InternationalNews/s/gsfS1FbTh7
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https://www.reddit.com/r/InternationalNews/s/gsfS1FbTh7
Definitely doesn't represent me or any form of Judaism I've ever encountered. Moreover, the first translation is not what he actually said in Hebrew, which leads me to question the other translations, but my Hebrew isn't good enough to translate all the quotes in real time this morning. The last quote is also definitely taken out of context.
Either way, this place certainly seems crazy. That said, I could scour the internet for Imams saying crazy racist, homophobic, anti-Semitic things. But I KNOW this doesn't represent the majority of Islamic or Arab people. Do you understand that about Israelis/jews?
Moreover- why all the telegram, reddit posts though from the anti-Israel crowd? Why dont you guys ever come up with real news articles? Check Al Jazeera - they have alot of anti-Israel articles but at least have folks who can fact check and translate for y'all, and maybe you could get some actual context. Why get your news from reddit? Al Jazeera (or pick your other biased, but legitimate, news source) is literally funded by the same country hosting the Hamas leaders. Your arguments would be more persuasive if not a chopped up video on reddit maybe catching some fringe religious leaders saying nasty things. For example, you could post arguments about how the IDF is using disproportionate force right now-- that would be more persuasive to all the people reading this than some "look what the crazy jew" said post.
Here is a video from another "Settler rabbi" with some local Imams included:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9PDN6hwWXc&t=1s
Edit: Big shoutout to "Newguy" for I guess "focusing" his own account? Interesting. I thought you were coming for me bro ;)
Double edit: Did "Petty" who agreed with my post already get banned? This is fascinating.
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(1) Haifa Massacre 1937.
(2) Jerusalem Massacre 1937.
(3) Haifa Massacre 1938.
(4) Balad Al Sheikh Massacre 1939.
(5) Haifa Massacre 1939.
(6) Haifa Massacre 1947.
(7) Abbaysia Massacre 1947.
(8 ) Al-khisas Massacre 1947.
(9) Bab- Al- Amud Massacre 1947.
(10) Jerusalem Massacre 1947.
(11) Sheikh Bureik Massacre 1947.
(12) Jaffa Massacre 1948.
(13) Dair Yassin Massacre 1948.
(14) Khan Younas Massacre 1956.
(15) Kafr Qasim Massacre 1956.
(16) Jerusalem Massacre 1967.
(17) Sabra And Shatila Massacre 1982.
(18) Al-Aqsa Massacre 1990.
(19) Ibrahim Mosque Massacre 1994.
(20) Jenin Refugee camp April 2002.
(21) Ghaza Massacre 2008-09.
(22) Ghaza Massacre 2012.
(23) Ghaza Massacre 2014.
(24) Ghaza Massacre 2018-19.
(25) Ghaza Massacre 2021.
(26) Ghaza Genocide 2023 still ongoing.
Anyone that investigates a little bit about history easily understands it did not started on October 7th 2023 and Israel is just occupying Palestine just like English occupied South Africa.
Only fools and people with financial interests believe in Israel lies.
Zionists are offended by everything and ashamed of nothing.
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Why not just threaten to kill me directly? That would be more persuasive then a bart Simpson quote. You got close enough :)
Victim much? Just go join the IDF and get your settlement already.
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Why not just threaten to kill me directly? That would be more persuasive then a bart Simpson quote. You got close enough :)
Victim much? Just go join the IDF and get your settlement already.
Someone posted I deserved to get shot in the face so I responded. My family member that was killed on October 7 was a victim, as well as the one that was paralyzed. Have a great day!
Edit: I also find very fascinating the correlation between the more rabid anti-israel posters targeting me and posting questions about pant fits. If I had more time I'd run a study-- correlation between extreme views on Israel and frequency of posting regarding the cut and fit of various pant brands and inseams.
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Oh look, they’re attacking a hospital again. The same one with no proof. Remember when they denied even attacking any hospitals. I do.
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Oh look, they’re attacking a hospital again. The same one with no proof. Remember when they denied even attacking any hospitals. I do.
Not trying to engage in an argument, but isn’t it true that Hamas operates its “military” near and in hospitals and schools on purpose? I’ve read this several times but I don’t know what’s real anymore.
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Oh look, they’re attacking a hospital again. The same one with no proof. Remember when they denied even attacking any hospitals. I do.
How dare you question those who are fighting for the Palestinians to be free (to either follow their interpretation of the word of GOd, or to fear the wrath of a vengeful god they are eager to execute). After all being martyred is a good thing. Thus, in any case, they are doing the best they can offer to the Palestinian people. And you should support their cause. (Ambiguity fully intended.)
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but Tsahal claimed they arrested/killed hundreds of Hamas members and leaders in Al Shifa complex.
I won't take the words of each clan at face value (both sides are lying extensively) but it seems these guys were hiding in a hospital.
Conventions say hospitals are protected during conflicts under the condition they aren't a military goal (CPI Romestatute Article 8 ). Hamas seems to be using this hospital for military operations (which is not allowed by international laws). Hamas, by hiding and operating in this hospital, is making this hospital lose its protection according to these conventions.
Sidenote, Sinwar himself stated that civil casualties were welcome.
He specified that high civilian casualties would only add to the terror group’s war goal, to put international pressure on Israel and for Hamas to survive the conflict.
https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel-at-war/1709197528-we-have-the-israelis-exactly-where-we-want-them-sinwar-tells-leaders-abroad-report (https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel-at-war/1709197528-we-have-the-israelis-exactly-where-we-want-them-sinwar-tells-leaders-abroad-report)
Must be nice for palestinians to be ruled by such people...
War crimes left and right.
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Why not just threaten to kill me directly? That would be more persuasive then a bart Simpson quote. You got close enough :)
Victim much? Just go join the IDF and get your settlement already.
Someone posted I deserved to get shot in the face so I responded. My family member that was killed on October 7 was a victim, as well as the one that was paralyzed. Have a great day!
Edit: I also find very fascinating the correlation between the more rabid anti-israel posters targeting me and posting questions about pant fits. If I had more time I'd run a study-- correlation between extreme views on Israel and frequency of posting regarding the cut and fit of various pant brands and inseams.
I’m sorry you had to go through that. I hope the survivor is doing okay.
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Zionists trying to claim Palestine is the land God promised them so no one else deserves to live there\Hamas is hiding in hospitals\schools\everywhere :
https://www.instagram.com/p/C4zIwebqpch
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but Tsahal claimed they arrested/killed hundreds of Hamas members and leaders in Al Shifa complex.
I won't take the words of each clan at face value (both sides are lying extensively) but it seems these guys were hiding in a hospital.
Conventions say hospitals are protected during conflicts under the condition they aren't a military goal (CPI Romestatute Article 8 ). Hamas seems to be using this hospital for military operations (which is not allowed by international laws). Hamas, by hiding and operating in this hospital, is making this hospital lose its protection according to these conventions.
Sidenote, Sinwar himself stated that civil casualties were welcome.
Expand Quote
He specified that high civilian casualties would only add to the terror group’s war goal, to put international pressure on Israel and for Hamas to survive the conflict.
Must be nice for palestinians to be ruled by such people...
War crimes left and right.
The folks here who are hardcore pro-Hamas don't care about war crimes or international conventions. They care about "colonist" versus "colonizer" as they've been taught on instagram/X/Telegram, and anything that is "punching up" is justified "resistance". Effectively, terrorism (i.e., targeting civilians on purpose with rape or murder to cause fear) is okay under this view as long as its the "good guys" doing it as per the interwebs mob. Its a far cry from the classical liberal OR classical progressive view, and Hamas is with the "good guys" in this weltanschaung, regardless of their actual practices and the torture they've inflicted on Israelis and Palestinians. The only sources used by this crowd are seemingly non-sourced, contextless instagram posts and similar, so you are getting a view even more extreme than Al Jazeera effectively.
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Expand Quote
but Tsahal claimed they arrested/killed hundreds of Hamas members and leaders in Al Shifa complex.
I won't take the words of each clan at face value (both sides are lying extensively) but it seems these guys were hiding in a hospital.
Conventions say hospitals are protected during conflicts under the condition they aren't a military goal (CPI Romestatute Article 8 ). Hamas seems to be using this hospital for military operations (which is not allowed by international laws). Hamas, by hiding and operating in this hospital, is making this hospital lose its protection according to these conventions.
Sidenote, Sinwar himself stated that civil casualties were welcome.
Expand Quote
He specified that high civilian casualties would only add to the terror group’s war goal, to put international pressure on Israel and for Hamas to survive the conflict.
Must be nice for palestinians to be ruled by such people...
War crimes left and right.
The folks here who are hardcore pro-Hamas don't care about war crimes or international conventions. They care about "colonist" versus "colonizer" as they've been taught on instagram/X/Telegram, and anything that is "punching up" is "justified". Effectively, terrorism is okay under this view as long as its the "good guys". Its a far cry from the classical liberal OR classical progressive view.
Hamas is an idea and nobody can kill an idea, why can try to kill Hamas, but if you lived in a country that is occupied by some european Zionists and they stole\kill\arrest without trial\humiliate\and much more your people ( which this all to me seems like true terrorism to me ) I bet you would also have ultimate hate to that people.
You can change Hamas name but Palestinian people will always legitimate hate Israel.
You can change Hamas name but the ideia will always be there.
Yes, they maybe be martyrs in the name of God, but thats because these people are really desperate and God is the only thing they can relly on.
On the other hand Zionist claim this land because is the promised land by their God...
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Expand Quote
Expand Quote
but Tsahal claimed they arrested/killed hundreds of Hamas members and leaders in Al Shifa complex.
I won't take the words of each clan at face value (both sides are lying extensively) but it seems these guys were hiding in a hospital.
Conventions say hospitals are protected during conflicts under the condition they aren't a military goal (CPI Romestatute Article 8 ). Hamas seems to be using this hospital for military operations (which is not allowed by international laws). Hamas, by hiding and operating in this hospital, is making this hospital lose its protection according to these conventions.
Sidenote, Sinwar himself stated that civil casualties were welcome.
Expand Quote
He specified that high civilian casualties would only add to the terror group’s war goal, to put international pressure on Israel and for Hamas to survive the conflict.
Must be nice for palestinians to be ruled by such people...
War crimes left and right.
The folks here who are hardcore pro-Hamas don't care about war crimes or international conventions. They care about "colonist" versus "colonizer" as they've been taught on instagram/X/Telegram, and anything that is "punching up" is "justified". Effectively, terrorism is okay under this view as long as its the "good guys". Its a far cry from the classical liberal OR classical progressive view.
Hamas is an idea and nobody can kill an idea, why can try to kill Hamas, but if you lived in a country that is occupied by some european Zionists and they stole\kill\arrest without trial\humiliate\and much more ( which this all to me seems like true terrorism to me ) your people I bet you would have ultimate hate to that people.
You can change Hamas name but Palestinian people will always legitimate hate Israel.
You can change Hamas name but the ideia will always be there.
Yes, they maybe be martyrs in the name of God, but thats because these people are really desperate and God is the only thing they can relly on.
On the other hand Zionist claim this land because is the promised land by their God...
Thank you for the post-- you've now concluded with the classic-- Jews are actually Europeans or something else and not the Israelites described in the Torah, Bible and Quran, and a tool of European colonialism argument. It flies in the face of all historic fact and easily verifiable information (much more than 50% of Jews in Israel dont have even recent ancestors from Europe-- and Ashkenazi jews trace their genetics to the same middle eastern group as the rest back during Roman times). Fundamentally, Jews can't be allowed to have a state under this world view because they are fake jews and deserve to be killed by "martyrs" (and in fact must be killed). Why not just complete your argument so everyone can see for themselves? Israel pulled out of Gaza and Hamas took over-- Israel hasn't been governing Gaza since the disengagement. No matter what the Israelis do, the "martyr" crowd will always want to conclude the battle of Khayber, and have many useful followers who aren't actually familiar with the core of this ideology.
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Expand Quote
Expand Quote
Expand Quote
but Tsahal claimed they arrested/killed hundreds of Hamas members and leaders in Al Shifa complex.
I won't take the words of each clan at face value (both sides are lying extensively) but it seems these guys were hiding in a hospital.
Conventions say hospitals are protected during conflicts under the condition they aren't a military goal (CPI Romestatute Article 8 ). Hamas seems to be using this hospital for military operations (which is not allowed by international laws). Hamas, by hiding and operating in this hospital, is making this hospital lose its protection according to these conventions.
Sidenote, Sinwar himself stated that civil casualties were welcome.
Expand Quote
He specified that high civilian casualties would only add to the terror group’s war goal, to put international pressure on Israel and for Hamas to survive the conflict.
Must be nice for palestinians to be ruled by such people...
War crimes left and right.
The folks here who are hardcore pro-Hamas don't care about war crimes or international conventions. They care about "colonist" versus "colonizer" as they've been taught on instagram/X/Telegram, and anything that is "punching up" is "justified". Effectively, terrorism is okay under this view as long as its the "good guys". Its a far cry from the classical liberal OR classical progressive view.
Hamas is an idea and nobody can kill an idea, why can try to kill Hamas, but if you lived in a country that is occupied by some european Zionists and they stole\kill\arrest without trial\humiliate\and much more ( which this all to me seems like true terrorism to me ) your people I bet you would have ultimate hate to that people.
You can change Hamas name but Palestinian people will always legitimate hate Israel.
You can change Hamas name but the ideia will always be there.
Yes, they maybe be martyrs in the name of God, but thats because these people are really desperate and God is the only thing they can relly on.
On the other hand Zionist claim this land because is the promised land by their God...
Thank you for the post-- you've now concluded with the classic-- Jews are actually Europeans or something else and not the Israelites described in the Torah, Bible and Quran, and a tool of European colonialism argument. It flies in the face of all historic fact and easily verifiable information (much more than 50% of Jews in Israel dont have even recent ancestors from Europe-- and Ashkenazi jews trace their genetics to the same middle eastern group as the rest back during Roman times). Fundamentally, Jews can't be allowed to have a state under this world view because they are fake jews and deserve to be killed by "martyrs" (and in fact must be killed). Why not just complete your argument so everyone can see for themselves?
you can try to act informed and intelligent but you aint fooling no one with a brain or without any financial interests.
Have a good life, but please be a good person, have some sympathy for others and practice good karma.
Bye!
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For the record- i sincerely hope for the end of the war and peace for both "sides" (hate to use that word). I live in a multicultural area and interact with Palestinians regularly and have nothing but love for all people (and recognize that they have legitimate issues with the current situation). Killing civilians isn't the path to peace. Appreciate the condescending "Be a good person" and "karma" nonsense though.
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(and recognize that they have legitimate issues with the current situation)
wow, cool. that's really big of you
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Israel is creating a generation of:
'Wounded Child, No Surviving Family' kids through their indiscriminate slaughter of civilians. Hamas isn’t going anywhere anytime soon.
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Expand Quote
but Tsahal claimed they arrested/killed hundreds of Hamas members and leaders in Al Shifa complex.
I won't take the words of each clan at face value (both sides are lying extensively) but it seems these guys were hiding in a hospital.
Conventions say hospitals are protected during conflicts under the condition they aren't a military goal (CPI Romestatute Article 8 ). Hamas seems to be using this hospital for military operations (which is not allowed by international laws). Hamas, by hiding and operating in this hospital, is making this hospital lose its protection according to these conventions.
Sidenote, Sinwar himself stated that civil casualties were welcome.
Expand Quote
He specified that high civilian casualties would only add to the terror group’s war goal, to put international pressure on Israel and for Hamas to survive the conflict.
Must be nice for palestinians to be ruled by such people...
War crimes left and right.
The folks here who are hardcore pro-Hamas don't care about war crimes or international conventions. They care about "colonist" versus "colonizer" as they've been taught on instagram/X/Telegram, and anything that is "punching up" is justified "resistance". Effectively, terrorism (i.e., targeting civilians on purpose with rape or murder to cause fear) is okay under this view as long as its the "good guys" doing it as per the interwebs mob. Its a far cry from the classical liberal OR classical progressive view, and Hamas is with the "good guys" in this weltanschaung, regardless of their actual practices and the torture they've inflicted on Israelis and Palestinians. The only sources used by this crowd are seemingly non-sourced, contextless instagram posts and similar, so you are getting a view even more extreme than Al Jazeera effectively.
The only 2 weapons you and most other apologists have is to consciously conflate
1-“Hating Palestinian babies being killed” with being “hardcore pro-Hamas”
And 2- “Criticizing the Israeli State for genocide” with “anti-semitism”.
As long as you keep it us, you sound ridiculous, and as its been repeated many times before, believing in absurdities allows you to commit atrocities.
I also feel that every “Israel is just defending itself” quisling should have to repeatedly condemn the murder 13,000 Gazan children before saying anything, in the same way anyone criticizing Israel had to condemn Hamas.
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Not sure how anyone could defend Isreal. Seems fairly straightforward to anyone with open eyes.
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Not sure how anyone could defend Isreal. Seems fairly straightforward to anyone with open eyes.
This.
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I'm German and have always been outspoken about German insanity being ultimately responsible for this entire tragedy (no Israel without the Holocaust). Therefore I've always chosen to err on the side of solidarity with Israel and highlighted the acts of cruelty comitted against it.
This insane genocidal war of revenge on a civilian population has changed my views permanently. All around me I see this change reflected in friends and family. What's more, the indiscriminate accusations of antisemitism against even the most constrained and nuanced forms of criticism have reduced the willingness to interrogate opinions for actual antisemitism.
Netanyahu's Israel has become an indefensible fascist nightmare. I've never defended Hamas or the CIA, why would I defend this?
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https://www.timesofisrael.com/released-hostage-amit-soussana-reveals-she-was-sexually-assaulted-by-hamas-captor/
https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/04/middleeast/sexual-assault-october-7-israel-witness-int/index.html
Where have I accused anyone here of being anti-Semitic due to being against Israeli military action? I do think the arguments that jews are actually khazar European converts and not descended from the ancient Israelites is an anti-Semitic trope (as well as not true). I do not want to see any innocent civilians killed in Gaza and have no control over Israeli military action. I did not intend to imply everyone in this thread criticizing military action by Israel was "pro-Hamas"-- my apologies if it came across that way. I do think some here are pro-Hamas based on their posts-- certainly a small minority.
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https://www.timesofisrael.com/released-hostage-amit-soussana-reveals-she-was-sexually-assaulted-by-hamas-captor/
https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/04/middleeast/sexual-assault-october-7-israel-witness-int/index.html
Where have I accused anyone here of being anti-Semitic due to being against Israeli military action? I do think the arguments that jews are actually khazar European converts and not descended from the ancient Israelites is an anti-Semitic trope (as well as not true). I do not want to see any innocent civilians killed in Gaza and have no control over Israeli military action. I did not intend to imply everyone in this thread criticizing military action by Israel was "pro-Hamas"-- my apologies if it came across that way. I do think some here are pro-Hamas based on their posts-- certainly a small minority.
Why are you here and what is your point? Why do you feel the need to defend/justify the actions of a murderous, criminal and apartheid government that operates on stolen land? Nothing you can pull from the internet and repost at this point can answer for anything Israel has done to Gazans.
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They should play each other in a game of SKATE for the territory
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🤷
https://www.instagram.com/reel/C3YJWH_I9QQ/?igsh=bzh6eHRnYXV1aHY5
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-airstrike-gaza-kills-foreign-aid-workers-hamas-run-media-office-says-2024-04-01/
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They should play each other in a game of SKATE for the territory
Let's play skate. One of you has a skateboard and some Dunks, the other has a 2x4 with no wheels and bricks tied to your ankles.
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Expand Quote
They should play each other in a game of SKATE for the territory
Let's play skate. One of you has a skateboard and some Dunks, the other has a 2x4 with no wheels and bricks tied to your ankles.
If I had the 2x4 with bricks I would just forfeit so we dont have to play skate
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Expand Quote
They should play each other in a game of SKATE for the territory
Let's play skate. One of you has a skateboard and some Dunks, the other has a 2x4 with no wheels and bricks tied to your ankles.
Team 2x4 is skating a diy they have been building for years, doing their thing. team dunks comes in, takes the 2x4, hits them with it, focuses it, calls a contracting company to level the diy, and declares themselves the winner of a game of skate that team 2x4 didn’t know about.
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"Team 2x4 is skating a diy they have been building for years, doing their thing. team dunks comes in, takes the 2x4, hits them with it, focuses it, calls a contracting company to level the diy, and declares themselves the winner of a game of skate that team 2x4 didn’t know about."
"Team 2x4" decides to break into team Dunks skatepark and kill and rape old folks and children, and take women and children hostage before the game, continuing to hold them hostage for 180 days and counting, yet claims they aren't playing the game...
See how strange it is to do this?
Shalom!
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Meanwhile Team Dunk has been committing equally abhorrent atrocities but they have Nike telling their story, so the rest of the world see them as the true victim. And, apparently one Team Dunk member is worth a Thousand Team 2z4 members.
However, all that is about to change b/c Team 2x4 has been documenting the rigged-game with a makeshift selfie-stand and the truth is getting out. People are tired of Phil Knight's bullshit and are now demanding he stop supplying Team Dunk with an extreme advantage.
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Palestine denied every peace deal they've been offered for a two state solution. Israel isn't going anywhere, some in Palestine think they can get that land back, delusional. In the meantime time they fight over this shit and innocent people die.
I'm not on either side but to me it seems to me this falls on Palestine to accept a deal, accept you got cucked and move on for the sake of the citizens.
Yes I've seen what the idf has doing on social media, I've also seen what videos of what Hamas has done, it's actually really hard to find the videos of Hamas there not on social media, I have to say Hamas is way more brutal than the idf. This social media feedback loop has caused one person to commit suicide by fire by getting so into stuff he saw on social media, he died yelling the phrase he learned on social media.
So basically my view is what are we dealing with today and how can we fix it? We can fix it, it's just Palestine refuses to.
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You are clearly on one side, @meg And it is not the side of civilians causalities.
The first step is to just fucking stop this obliteration. Israel is now doing harm to itself and its future. The tide is turning against it. For the sake of its people, it has to reconsider its direction, and Israeli citizens know this.
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Im against Hamas, if that and pointing out the obvious puts me on some side then so be it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4eh8tcEpFY
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Sounds like you're more than just against Hamas, based on your original post.
I think most of us are anti-Hamas but the big questions is at what cost?
Thankfully the world is waking up and the cost civilians, aid workers and journalists are paying in Gaza is far too much for most to stomach.
Its over... Israel is about to isolate itself unless it tuns course.
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I think most of us are anti-Hamas but the big questions is at what cost?
I think this is a good question for everyone, what would have did after the 7th attack?
Personally I would do the same shit and bomb the shit out of their shit
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Then you are a complete kook. I hate to insult a stranger on the internet like this but there is no room for this type of war mongering nonsense. none.
Seriously, all you'd be doing (Israel is doing) is making things worse for everyone, including your own people.
It's all unfolding now. Read the headlines. The cost is far too high. Israel has gone way too far. If you care about the future stability of Israel, you'd see this.
Please consider history.
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So what would you have done? Nothing?
How do we get rid of hamas without violence?
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Step 1) Don't make things worse.
Step 2) Avoid 'Collective Punishment.'
Step 3) Be better than your enemy, hold the moral high ground.
Step 4) Learn from history and consider the future.
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So nothing... Got it
Nice talking to ya
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No it wasn't. You had nothing to offer this discussion at all. Come back when you've caught up.
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Gotta love people who try to restrict the whole conversation to what happened on October 7th and beyond, reminds me of my countrymen who restricted the conversation about our bullshit “war on terror” to what happened on 9/11, as if history conveniently started on those dates and ignoring the decades of oppression, violence and exploitation that led up to them…
I pray that this whole blasphemous, racist colonial-settler project comes to an end without destroying the world in a nuclear inferno and that the children of Abraham will somehow learn to live in peace with each other (again)…shalom/salaam to you all and Ramadan Kareem!
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Gotta love people who try to restrict the whole conversation to what happened on October 7th and beyond, reminds me of my countrymen who restricted the conversation about our bullshit “war on terror” to what happened on 9/11, as if history conveniently started on those dates and ignoring the decades of oppression, violence and exploitation that led up to them…
I pray that this whole blasphemous, racist colonial-settler project comes to an end without destroying the world in a nuclear inferno and that the children of Abraham will somehow learn to live in peace with each other (again)…shalom/salaam to you all and Ramadan Kareem!
Check the thread- we've gone back to 680 in previous posts, 1700s, 1800s, 1900s. Let me know if you'd like me to repost. Why not post with your real username?
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Gotta love people who try to restrict the whole conversation to what happened on October 7th and beyond, reminds me of my countrymen who restricted the conversation about our bullshit “war on terror” to what happened on 9/11, as if history conveniently started on those dates and ignoring the decades of oppression, violence and exploitation that led up to them…
I pray that this whole blasphemous, racist colonial-settler project comes to an end without destroying the world in a nuclear inferno and that the children of Abraham will somehow learn to live in peace with each other (again)…shalom/salaam to you all and Ramadan Kareem!
Check the thread- we've gone back to 680 in previous posts, 1700s, 1800s, 1900s. Let me know if you'd like me to repost. Why not post with your real username?
Not sure what you’re trying to imply, I always post under my “real” username…paranoid much? Or are you just trying to intimidate/threaten me? How about come up with something more substantive than holding up past communal trauma to justify the horrendous evil shit your people are doing now? Don’t like what I have to say? Tough shit!
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I know, I know: but what about Khamas/October 7th/some 19th century Cossack pogrom etc. etc.
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I know, I know: but what about Khamas/October 7th/some 19th century Cossack pogrom etc. etc.
Definitely not trying to intimidate you-- you only have 20ish posts in years, so thought this might be a troll account. Maybe you just aren't sitting at a computer all day (good for you!- not sarcastic). Also, would you consider my family members being killed and maimed on October 7 "past communal trauma"?
You have simultaneously argued in this thread history didn't start October 7th and also that we can't look at history. None of this has to do with Kossacks in Europe. Here you go-- a tibit of Jewish history in the Middle East.
Pre "zionism":
Hebron:
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1517_Hebron_attacks
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Hebron
Tsfat: (aka Safed)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1517_Safed_attacks
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1660_destruction_of_Safed
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1834_looting_of_Safed
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1838_Druze_attack_on_Safed
Bonus: Pre-modern zionist state but modern period attack- with pictures for the folks on here who seem to enjoy such things:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Palestine_riots
Tiberius:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1660_destruction_of_Tiberias
Outside of Israel:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_world
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_Arab_world
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Khaybar
Obviously no justification for killing aid workers and civilians. I hope Israel did not do this on purpose and it is a disgrace. I have little faith in any government and am not arguing any army has clean hands. But, the reality is, there are still hostages in Gaza (including women and children) and the war isn't going to end until they are released. Nevertheless, agreed with what others have posted in this thread that many Israelis are fed up with Netanyahu's handling of the situation and believe he should be working harder to free the hostages. Someone else posted in this thread alleged massacres by zionists of Palestinians, but with no citations: I haven't researched this as much, but believe they were posted in good faith, and am not denying both "sides' have things to be angry about. Clearly, there has been an unfortunate back and forth for a long time.
As always, I hope for peace and welcome this discussion. Us versus them is not going to help solve conflict. Hopefully we can view each other as humans and the killing can stop.
Shalom!
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Shalom/Salaam,
I made a huge mistake replying to this thread, this is obviously a highly charged emotional issue (and rightly so), I’m about 3 1/2 weeks into a doozy of a fast (been a rough one this year with everything going on), my posts definitely come off as unhinged, believe it or not your people aren’t the only ones who’ve been victimized in modern (and not so modern) history, that we absolutely must learn to see each others as human beings and learn to live in peace and equality with one another is a common ground for both of us.
For the sake of my mental health and spiritual well-being I must step away from this conversation, I’m truly sorry for your family’s loss, shalom/salaam
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@231st Street and @meg are the same person.
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Shalom/Salaam,
I made a huge mistake replying to this thread, this is obviously a highly charged emotional issue (and rightly so), I’m about 3 1/2 weeks into a doozy of a fast (been a rough one this year with everything going on), my posts definitely come off as unhinged, believe it or not your people aren’t the only ones who’ve been victimized in modern (and not so modern) history, that we absolutely must learn to see each others as human beings and learn to live in peace and equality with one another is a common ground for both of us.
For the sake of my mental health and spiritual well-being I must step away from this conversation, I’m truly sorry for your family’s loss, shalom/salaam
Thank you and shalom and salaam to you as well. For the record, your posts were fine-- this is a forum for open debate (or is supposed to be). I absolutely understand and feel what you're saying/agree: there were some pretty nasty posts directed at me a few pages back, so I also likely came in too intensely in the context of the most recent back and forth in the thread amongst others. I have tried to pull myself away from this conversation as well, but difficult. Sorry that the convo had a negative impact on you- don't sweat it please. Have a good rest of your fasting. Ramadan kareem to those fasting! Hopefully we can have peace soon!
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@231st Street and @meg are the same person.
Nope...I obviously have had other usernames, but only 1 account and no "troll accounts". No clue who meg is. I only know a few people from here in real life and none are active posters/in this thread. Shalom/salaam all!
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@231st Street seems worthy of debate @meg does not.
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Hoes mad that palestine is the one who needs to get their shit together
Accept a peace deal you fuckheads
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Hoes also mad there's 2 people not circle jerking with them
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But only one that is capable of intelligent discourse and forming a coherent sentence. I'm sure the Zionsists are stoked to have you @meg
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"I do not know with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones"
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But only one that is capable of intelligent discourse and forming a coherent sentence. I'm sure the Zionsists are stoked to have you @meg
The only thing your capable of is losing a debate and still being salty about it.
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Incorrect on both fronts. This “discourse” is about as useful as Israeli foreign policy, which is really becoming self-defeating at this point. As I’ve said, many times, if you truly cared about Israel’s future, you’d attempt to imagine a more humane way out of this.
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I really cant imagine a more humane way out of this, what would it be? (Peace deal maybe???) even if I could that's not what were dealing with.
Here's the catch though,I don't even care for Israels future, or Palestine. My posts are not about caring I'm just stating the obvious stuff we are dealing with here and how to fix it. I have no skin in the game.
I dunno maybe they could hire some ninjas from Japan to stealthfully and humanely take out hamas
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If you are an American tax-payer or voter you certainly do have 'skin in the game,' like it or not.
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Stop feeling the troll Frank. This fuckface posted eyerolling memes under trans content. Funny how these dudes always line up on all the topics. Go practice your dolphin flips if you even skate at all, meg. Piece of shit
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If you are an American tax-payer or voter you certainly do have 'skin in the game,' like it or not.
Yes we very much do.
No matter how much everyone wishes otherwise.
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If you frame it that way that makes every American a israel supporter.
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(https://i.imgur.com/KAWfSRp.png)
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I guess we’re sleep walking into a new war since Iran is retaliating after Israel killed their commanders in Syria.
https://apnews.com/article/israel-syria-airstrike-iranian-embassy-edca34c52d38c8bc57281e4ebf33b240
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/iran-strikes-israel-attack-live-updates-b2527920.html
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Remember Tramp said the CIA wanted to attack Iran. I assumed it bullshit misdirection till now. This is all part of the elites mechanism set into motion in the late 70s early 80s. America has always been against Iran. Until just before desert storm after Kuwait. My heart goes out to all the regular people just being held a hostage by these horrendous war bastards. Anyone who choses blood over peace should never lead nations.
I have a question. Does Hezbollah consider all citizens of Israel military personnel? On account of the training for the service? Because the attacks seems indiscriminate. Attacking civilians invites Israel to invade Lebanon. Syrian militants will escalate and it continues.
Im still wondering why Republicans love Russia. Arnt they down with Iran? Thats confusing. Cuz it seems to me they just want to make get back the oil rights BP? lost. I assume arout the time of the 7 sisters.
We heading towards some Mad Max if we dont stop regardless
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https://youtu.be/-mxfnya3ZRc?si=33xqGor1-TGNC32S
Bastard systems beefing.
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I wanna make sure that fools know I ain't got a side. I want two state solution. I understand the strategic value of the heights.
If these two systems didn't exist then there's no more fight.
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Originally posted this in the lame insta thread, but removed it to avoid corrupting that thread more
Re:Biden not strong enough on Israel.
I disagree with the narrative about Biden and Israel. I disagree for the following reasons:
1. Bibi tells Biden/the State Department he'll do one thing and then does something else because he is just biding time until the election. He knows if Trump gets back into office he can torture children on the street and/or start a war with Iran and Trump will support him.
2. A key part of the democratic coalition are Jewish voters. Liberal / non-ultra orthodox Jewish people are reacting to this situation in a very complicated manner. Ezra Klein has discussed this many times and the recent special election in Long Island required the democratic candidate to support Israel.
3. Biden has imposed sanctions on some Israelis for their settlements, Trump supported settlers.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/us-expected-impose-new-sanctions-against-occupied-west-bank-outposts-axios-2024-03-14/
https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN27D23W/
4. Generation matters, for younger people we often view Israel as a very powerful rich country bullying (to put it very gently) its weaker neighbor, but older people view it from the lens of a nation that is surrounded by much larger and more powerful oil rich enemies. Getting an entire generation to shift its view of Israel from victim to victimizer isn't going to be easy. I mean look at the older people reacting to facebook nonsense about last night's attacks, "Why should Israel be able to 'defend' itself against Iran?" These responses ignore Israel's attack on the consulate that spurred Iran's reaction, but everything is viewed as Israel as the victim and the narrative can go on forever Iran attack Israel < Israel attacked the consulate < Iranian backed militias have been attacking Israel < and so on.
5. Bibi is a fucking dildo. He is a hard right asshole who is trying to avoid being persecuted for his crimes. He campaigned for McCain in our fucking congress as a fuck you to Obama. I wouldn't be surprised if every single Republican is encouraging Bibi to ignore the current administration and tell them they will do everything and anything to demonize Biden or anyone blue if they quickly shift course. The slow shift is already being framed as traitorous and other such nonsense.
We seem to often pretend America has a parliament system where big shifts can be pushed through against the opposition's will. By design our country does shit slowly and gives power to the opposition party, which--on top of all sorts of other political considerations--makes it hard for big/fast changes. Republicans will do everything possible make sure Democrats don't get their way or even get a win. Look at the border deal, Democrats gave Republicans their wet dream border legislation and they backed out cause it would have given Biden a win, not because they disagreed with the legislation. Oppositions have power and this seems to be ignored when discussing this issue.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zK6V0ZxWJI&list=PLdMrbgYfVl-szepgVpArP0obwYgbKdfvx&index=26
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https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-working-to-block-feared-icc-arrest-warrants-against-pm-others-over-gaza-war/amp/
Issue their arrest warrants already. Hopefully it’ll stop the funding of the collective punishment machine.
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"They" are really using anti-Semitism as a reason to shut-down the college campus protests but I really can't find many examples of this. I am fully in support of the anti-war students and wondering how much anti-Semitic rhetoric is really being spewed?
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I just saw there's a ceasefire on the table. Hostages could be released.
Hopefully more aid will get in.
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"They" are really using anti-Semitism as a reason to shut-down the college campus protests but I really can't find many examples of this. I am fully in support of the anti-war students and wondering how much anti-Semitic rhetoric is really being spewed?
I stopped by the UPenn one. No anti semitism detected, many obviously Jewish people participating in the protest
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2024/04/28/jewish-students-campus-protests-israel-gaza/
https://time.com/6969552/white-house-condemns-antisemitism-college-campuses-protests/
Totally non-violent. Draw your own conclusions, folks.
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2024/04/28/jewish-students-campus-protests-israel-gaza/
https://time.com/6969552/white-house-condemns-antisemitism-college-campuses-protests/
Totally non-violent. Draw your own conclusions, folks.
the washing post article is spitting straight bullshit:
"It’s been that way since Oct. 7, she said, when the war began with an attack on Israel by Hamas"
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I’ve drawn my own conclusions and all the violence is from the police as usual. They’re trying to instigate violence and the kids aren’t reciprocating. Same as it ever was.
If there was violence from these non-violent protesters, where are the assault charges?
The press would quickly publish them to support their narrative, but there isn’t any documented charges.
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Pretty typical watching LE roll up with batons and zip ties. Shields and tear gas.
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Pretty typical watching LE roll up with batons and zip ties. Shields and tear gas.
Yes, "to protect and serve"
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2024/04/28/jewish-students-campus-protests-israel-gaza/
https://time.com/6969552/white-house-condemns-antisemitism-college-campuses-protests/
Totally non-violent. Draw your own conclusions, folks.
What about the Anti-war Jewish students who have been attacked and arrested?
Anti-war and Anti-zionism is not anti-semitism say it again. The so called anti-semitic nature of these protests seems absurdly over-inflated.
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The only reason they can say the protests are antisemitic is the oft repeated premise that being against Israel is inherently antisemitic.
I sincerely doubt the Jewish people, staff, and faculty that have sided with the students behind the barricades would stick up for them if they were truly expressing actual antisemitism.
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Anti Semitic acts would include:
- Burning American or Israeli flags held by jews at counteprotests
- Posters with swastikas, Hezbella and Hamas flags
- Screaming fuck you zionist pigs at people walking by in traditional jewish garb
- Throwing rocks at jews
All of these things have been well documented. Are these things anti-Semitic? Is this free speech?
https://nypost.com/2024/04/26/us-news/nypd-hunts-for-hateful-suspects-in-attacks-on-victims-holding-israeli-flags-including-one-outside-columbia/
https://nypost.com/2024/04/21/us-news/anti-israel-protester-screams-at-demonstrators-with-israeli-flag-outside-columbia-u-go-back-to-poland/
https://nypost.com/2024/04/22/us-news/jewish-columbia-student-says-protesters-burned-his-israeli-flag-hit-him-in-face-with-rocks/
https://nypost.com/2024/04/21/us-news/jewish-yale-student-stabbed-in-the-eye-with-palestinian-flag-during-protest/
https://nypost.com/2024/04/16/us-news/anti-israel-protesters-wave-hezbollah-flag-in-nyc/
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The protests aren't antisemitic on their own. Its some of these fools aint vetting who there organizing with so of course theres assholes in the mix. Folx who are new should look out. Problems that used to be more a right issue are over here too as our numbers grow.
Dont wind up walking in on a tiki torch party by following people you dont know away from the protest or counter protest.
Cuz they out there. They just left the colours at home.
They dont like no one. Not even themselves. Just Grandpa and his backwards bullshit. No one can live up to grandpa! What a man. Beat up his drunken dad and become the man of the house at age 11. How could he be wrong? Everything he ever said is backed up by in a 50000 year old book from before the written word.... AND has been the mottos of 700k failed nations
Gotta follow that guy. He was the only person who was ever nice to me...
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Of course it’s the ny post. Yeah, I’m sorry you’re basically reposting the equivalent of Fox News Tucker Carlson fake news in print form. I can’t believe bullshit that easy. The onion is more factual.
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Of course it’s the ny post. Yeah, I’m sorry you’re basically reposting the equivalent of Fox News Tucker Carlson fake news in print form. I can’t believe bullshit that easy. The onion is more factual.
Its what i tell some of the homies. They scared af too. Im like dont worry dog. Ill hide you. Then we giggle. Till next week when i hear. YOOOOOOO did you hear about the new body of water ( an ocean ;) ) its cutting its way right through Africa?
Lets google it dooooder. Really quickly. I love that mother fucker.
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Anti Semitic acts would include:
- Burning American or Israeli flags held by jews at counteprotests
- Posters with swastikas, Hezbella and Hamas flags
- Screaming fuck you zionist pigs at people walking by in traditional jewish garb
- Throwing rocks at jews
All of these things have been well documented. Are these things anti-Semitic? Is this free speech?
https://nypost.com/2024/04/26/us-news/nypd-hunts-for-hateful-suspects-in-attacks-on-victims-holding-israeli-flags-including-one-outside-columbia/
https://nypost.com/2024/04/21/us-news/anti-israel-protester-screams-at-demonstrators-with-israeli-flag-outside-columbia-u-go-back-to-poland/
https://nypost.com/2024/04/22/us-news/jewish-columbia-student-says-protesters-burned-his-israeli-flag-hit-him-in-face-with-rocks/
https://nypost.com/2024/04/21/us-news/jewish-yale-student-stabbed-in-the-eye-with-palestinian-flag-during-protest/
https://nypost.com/2024/04/16/us-news/anti-israel-protesters-wave-hezbollah-flag-in-nyc/
Yeah, you're going to have some fringe and isolated incidents just as some pro-Israeli demonstrators have resorted to violence the last few days but by and large the campus movement is not anti-semitic as much as the media and politicians are desperately trying to paint it that way. NY post will not convince me otherwise.
Burning the Israeli flag? Not anti-semitic either. Those that really value Jewish lives would also have a meaningful critique of Israel right now... as many Jews do. B?C the war on Palestine is going to hurt Israel and the Jewish diaspora for generations.
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I agree- by and large I'm sure most are not anti-Semitic. Burning an Israeli flag that you brought to the protest? Great, that's free speech. Burning an Israeli flag that an Israeli is carrying while he is carrying it as in the article (and on video), resulting in that person being burned, not free speech. I wouldn't advocate the burning of a Palestinian flag that a Palestinian was holding, either. Yelling zionist pig at jewish college students isn't going to end this conflict folks.
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Is Van Morrison’s 2021 song “They Own The Media” anti-Semitic? Or was that just old Sir George Ivan letting his freak flag fly?
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Is Van Morrison’s 2021 song “They Own The Media” anti-Semitic? Or was that just old Sir George Ivan letting his freak flag fly?
You don't see the difference between that and literally lighting a flag on fire that someone is holding that isn't your property? No, I would not interpret that song as anti-semitic (and regardless, it is protected speech). When speech becomes threats of violence or actual violence, it is no longer protected speech. I'm probably not nearly as uptight as y'all imagine lol. Feel free to live in tents and do whatever you all feel is right.
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you are the dumbest poster
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https://nypost.com/2024/04/21/us-news/jewish-yale-student-stabbed-in-the-eye-with-palestinian-flag-during-protest/
Not only are you posting articles from a rag like the NY Post, but you're posting stuff that has already been debunked.
Video of the alleged "stabbing" incident...
https://www.reddit.com/r/Connecticut/comments/1cahkop/video_of_the_eye_stabbing_incident_at_yale_sfw/?rdt=49820
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Is Van Morrison’s 2021 song “They Own The Media” anti-Semitic? Or was that just old Sir George Ivan letting his freak flag fly?
https://pitchfork.com/reviews/albums/van-morrison-latest-record-project-vol-1/
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2024/04/28/jewish-students-campus-protests-israel-gaza/
https://time.com/6969552/white-house-condemns-antisemitism-college-campuses-protests/
Totally non-violent. Draw your own conclusions, folks.
Stop equating criticism of Israel with anti-semitism. Anyone, Jewish or not that can defend Israel at this point is delusional.
https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2024-05-01/four-student-journalists-attacked-by-counterprotesters-at-ucla
We can all dig up news stories that support our agenda.
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Is Van Morrison’s 2021 song “They Own The Media” anti-Semitic? Or was that just old Sir George Ivan letting his freak flag fly?
You don't see the difference between that and literally lighting a flag on fire that someone is holding that isn't your property? No, I would not interpret that song as anti-semitic (and regardless, it is protected speech). When speech becomes threats of violence or actual violence, it is no longer protected speech. I'm probably not nearly as uptight as y'all imagine lol. Feel free to live in tents and do whatever you all feel is right.
Oh, I’m glad you are concerned about violence and property damage. I heard there’s a lot of it going on in Gaza right now. Some poked eyes, some burned flags. Maybe even some bumps and bruises. I heard there might have been a broken window or two.
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2024/04/28/jewish-students-campus-protests-israel-gaza/
https://time.com/6969552/white-house-condemns-antisemitism-college-campuses-protests/
Totally non-violent. Draw your own conclusions, folks.
Stop equating criticism of Israel with anti-semitism. Anyone, Jewish or not that can defend Israel at this point is delusional.
https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2024-05-01/four-student-journalists-attacked-by-counterprotesters-at-ucla
We can all dig up news stories that support our agenda.
That is awful. Do you see how I can acknowledge that? I honestly hadn't seen that story-- I live in NYC and dont regularly look at the LA Times. We need deescalation on "both sides". That is what I'm trying to get at.
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Is Van Morrison’s 2021 song “They Own The Media” anti-Semitic? Or was that just old Sir George Ivan letting his freak flag fly?
You don't see the difference between that and literally lighting a flag on fire that someone is holding that isn't your property? No, I would not interpret that song as anti-semitic (and regardless, it is protected speech). When speech becomes threats of violence or actual violence, it is no longer protected speech. I'm probably not nearly as uptight as y'all imagine lol. Feel free to live in tents and do whatever you all feel is right.
Oh, I’m glad you are concerned about violence and property damage. I heard there’s a lot of it going on in Gaza right now. Some poked eyes, some burned flags. Maybe even some bumps and bruises. I heard there might have been a broken window or two.
Do you think bringing middle eastern war level violence too U.S. college campuses is a good idea? Not that I'm equating the levels of violence. Or would it be better for people to get to know each other as humans to try to prevent future violence? Do you think yelling at and attempting to intimidate American jews on college campuses is going to result in a change in U.S. or Israeli policy to end the war? Or is it just a way to "let off some steam". What are your goals?
Goals should be-- free remaining hostages, end war, create a living situation in Gaza that is humane, coexistence between human beings, not tit for tat violent protests.
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Is Van Morrison’s 2021 song “They Own The Media” anti-Semitic? Or was that just old Sir George Ivan letting his freak flag fly?
You don't see the difference between that and literally lighting a flag on fire that someone is holding that isn't your property? No, I would not interpret that song as anti-semitic (and regardless, it is protected speech). When speech becomes threats of violence or actual violence, it is no longer protected speech. I'm probably not nearly as uptight as y'all imagine lol. Feel free to live in tents and do whatever you all feel is right.
Oh, I’m glad you are concerned about violence and property damage. I heard there’s a lot of it going on in Gaza right now. Some poked eyes, some burned flags. Maybe even some bumps and bruises. I heard there might have been a broken window or two.
Do you think bringing middle eastern war level violence too U.S. college campuses is a good idea? Not that I'm equating the levels of violence. Or would it be better for people to get to know each other as humans to try to prevent future violence? Do you think yelling at and attempting to intimidate American jews on college campuses is going to result in a change in U.S. or Israeli policy to end the war? Or is it just a way to "let off some steam". What are your goals?
Goals should be-- free remaining hostages, end war, create a living situation in Gaza that is humane,coexistence between human beings, not tit for tat violent protests.
I do appreciate your passion in this discussion, and understand the intertwined aspect of the Jewish identity and existence of Israel in its current state for many people, but the bolded text just isn’t going to happen magically until the subjugation and control of one group of people ceases. This is what’s driving the protests.
The only humane living situation in Gaza is one in which they have true freedom for self governance, can participate in trade and procure food and other goods, and have the same rights afforded to them as any other person.
To date, Israel has shown no interest in those outcomes, and every Israeli response to Palestinian retaliation has been magnitudes higher and resulted in huge death tolls. This shows a blatant disregard for Palestinian life and an elevation of the importance of one people over another, which in itself will never allow for a peaceful outcome for both sides, only one.
No group of people is a monolith, just as no group of protesters or counterprotesters are - sometimes emotions run high and things get ugly. But pointing out isolated incidents of “rule-breaking” in otherwise largely peaceful protests is falling back on the same tactics of the right wing during any civil rights protest from MLK to George Floyd.
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I’m disgusted by people who have made women’s rights or children’s lives and well being their identity while completely turning their back on all the innocent women and children that died in the name of a desperate land grab and natural resources to exploit. There’s still hordes of starving kids and women you can start caring about, but I guess they don’t matter if they aren’t the right color or worship a different religion.
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I’m disgusted by people who have made women’s rights or children’s lives and well being their identity while completely turning their back on all the innocent women and children that died in the name of a desperate land grab and natural resources to exploit. There’s still hordes of starving kids and women you can start caring about, but I guess they don’t matter if they aren’t the right color or worship a different religion.
Nailed it.
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https://thehill.com/homenews/house/4636945-antisemitism-bill-campus-protests/amp/
Oh look, they’re quickly moving to remove your ability to criticize them and turn the phrase “From the river to the sea” into something antisemitic. Our constitutionally protected free speech and assemble to protest is worthless when it comes to a foreign country.
I sure wish they moved that fast on all the pertinent issues causing unneeded suffering in our country.
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Is Van Morrison’s 2021 song “They Own The Media” anti-Semitic? Or was that just old Sir George Ivan letting his freak flag fly?
You don't see the difference between that and literally lighting a flag on fire that someone is holding that isn't your property? No, I would not interpret that song as anti-semitic (and regardless, it is protected speech). When speech becomes threats of violence or actual violence, it is no longer protected speech. I'm probably not nearly as uptight as y'all imagine lol. Feel free to live in tents and do whatever you all feel is right.
Oh, I’m glad you are concerned about violence and property damage. I heard there’s a lot of it going on in Gaza right now. Some poked eyes, some burned flags. Maybe even some bumps and bruises. I heard there might have been a broken window or two.
Do you think bringing middle eastern war level violence too U.S. college campuses is a good idea? Not that I'm equating the levels of violence. Or would it be better for people to get to know each other as humans to try to prevent future violence? Do you think yelling at and attempting to intimidate American jews on college campuses is going to result in a change in U.S. or Israeli policy to end the war? Or is it just a way to "let off some steam". What are your goals?
Goals should be-- free remaining hostages, end war, create a living situation in Gaza that is humane,coexistence between human beings, not tit for tat violent protests.
I do appreciate your passion in this discussion, and understand the intertwined aspect of the Jewish identity and existence of Israel in its current state for many people, but the bolded text just isn’t going to happen magically until the subjugation and control of one group of people ceases. This is what’s driving the protests.
The only humane living situation in Gaza is one in which they have true freedom for self governance, can participate in trade and procure food and other goods, and have the same rights afforded to them as any other person.
To date, Israel has shown no interest in those outcomes, and every Israeli response to Palestinian retaliation has been magnitudes higher and resulted in huge death tolls. This shows a blatant disregard for Palestinian life and an elevation of the importance of one people over another, which in itself will never allow for a peaceful outcome for both sides, only one.
No group of people is a monolith, just as no group of protesters or counterprotesters are - sometimes emotions run high and things get ugly. But pointing out isolated incidents of “rule-breaking” in otherwise largely peaceful protests is falling back on the same tactics of the right wing during any civil rights protest from MLK to George Floyd.
Curious about why you’re saying people in Gaza can’t trade or procure food or other goods (pre 10/7).
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Is Van Morrison’s 2021 song “They Own The Media” anti-Semitic? Or was that just old Sir George Ivan letting his freak flag fly?
You don't see the difference between that and literally lighting a flag on fire that someone is holding that isn't your property? No, I would not interpret that song as anti-semitic (and regardless, it is protected speech). When speech becomes threats of violence or actual violence, it is no longer protected speech. I'm probably not nearly as uptight as y'all imagine lol. Feel free to live in tents and do whatever you all feel is right.
Oh, I’m glad you are concerned about violence and property damage. I heard there’s a lot of it going on in Gaza right now. Some poked eyes, some burned flags. Maybe even some bumps and bruises. I heard there might have been a broken window or two.
Do you think bringing middle eastern war level violence too U.S. college campuses is a good idea? Not that I'm equating the levels of violence. Or would it be better for people to get to know each other as humans to try to prevent future violence? Do you think yelling at and attempting to intimidate American jews on college campuses is going to result in a change in U.S. or Israeli policy to end the war? Or is it just a way to "let off some steam". What are your goals?
Goals should be-- free remaining hostages, end war, create a living situation in Gaza that is humane,coexistence between human beings, not tit for tat violent protests.
I do appreciate your passion in this discussion, and understand the intertwined aspect of the Jewish identity and existence of Israel in its current state for many people, but the bolded text just isn’t going to happen magically until the subjugation and control of one group of people ceases. This is what’s driving the protests.
The only humane living situation in Gaza is one in which they have true freedom for self governance, can participate in trade and procure food and other goods, and have the same rights afforded to them as any other person.
To date, Israel has shown no interest in those outcomes, and every Israeli response to Palestinian retaliation has been magnitudes higher and resulted in huge death tolls. This shows a blatant disregard for Palestinian life and an elevation of the importance of one people over another, which in itself will never allow for a peaceful outcome for both sides, only one.
No group of people is a monolith, just as no group of protesters or counterprotesters are - sometimes emotions run high and things get ugly. But pointing out isolated incidents of “rule-breaking” in otherwise largely peaceful protests is falling back on the same tactics of the right wing during any civil rights protest from MLK to George Floyd.
This definition can definitely differ between parties, but from my assessment there was no way I could look at the way resources and goods including but not limited to water, internet, and healthcare were completely controlled by the Israeli state prior to Palestinian access and still consider that to be free access for the people of Palestine.
I’m sure there was trading of food and other goods among the people themselves, but when one state controls the access and can turn off the tap (as seen post 10/7), and has a specific group living in a surveillance state, I can’t consider that free and open trade.
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Is Van Morrison’s 2021 song “They Own The Media” anti-Semitic? Or was that just old Sir George Ivan letting his freak flag fly?
You don't see the difference between that and literally lighting a flag on fire that someone is holding that isn't your property? No, I would not interpret that song as anti-semitic (and regardless, it is protected speech). When speech becomes threats of violence or actual violence, it is no longer protected speech. I'm probably not nearly as uptight as y'all imagine lol. Feel free to live in tents and do whatever you all feel is right.
Oh, I’m glad you are concerned about violence and property damage. I heard there’s a lot of it going on in Gaza right now. Some poked eyes, some burned flags. Maybe even some bumps and bruises. I heard there might have been a broken window or two.
Do you think bringing middle eastern war level violence too U.S. college campuses is a good idea? Not that I'm equating the levels of violence. Or would it be better for people to get to know each other as humans to try to prevent future violence? Do you think yelling at and attempting to intimidate American jews on college campuses is going to result in a change in U.S. or Israeli policy to end the war? Or is it just a way to "let off some steam". What are your goals?
Goals should be-- free remaining hostages, end war, create a living situation in Gaza that is humane,coexistence between human beings, not tit for tat violent protests.
I do appreciate your passion in this discussion, and understand the intertwined aspect of the Jewish identity and existence of Israel in its current state for many people, but the bolded text just isn’t going to happen magically until the subjugation and control of one group of people ceases. This is what’s driving the protests.
The only humane living situation in Gaza is one in which they have true freedom for self governance, can participate in trade and procure food and other goods, and have the same rights afforded to them as any other person.
To date, Israel has shown no interest in those outcomes, and every Israeli response to Palestinian retaliation has been magnitudes higher and resulted in huge death tolls. This shows a blatant disregard for Palestinian life and an elevation of the importance of one people over another, which in itself will never allow for a peaceful outcome for both sides, only one.
No group of people is a monolith, just as no group of protesters or counterprotesters are - sometimes emotions run high and things get ugly. But pointing out isolated incidents of “rule-breaking” in otherwise largely peaceful protests is falling back on the same tactics of the right wing during any civil rights protest from MLK to George Floyd.
This definition can definitely differ between parties, but from my assessment there was no way I could look at the way resources and goods including but not limited to water, internet, and healthcare were completely controlled by the Israeli state prior to Palestinian access and still consider that to be free access for the people of Palestine.
I’m sure there was trading of food and other goods among the people themselves, but when one state controls the access and can turn off the tap (as seen post 10/7), and has a specific group living in a surveillance state, I can’t consider that free and open trade.
Wasn't UNRWA mostly in control of healthcare? It's hard to argue against the other points you made. Everything was heavily surveiled.
I think the big issue here is that Hamas acts ideologically, not pragmatically. They put their resources into military infrastructure instead of building GDP. The military infrastructure helps them carry out their ideology, but does nothing in terms of helping their people.
Regarding surveillance, it could be said that Israel failed in its goal (protecting Israel) because Hamas was still able to build tunnel infrastructure and import/create however many weapons. And when they've had relative peace, they've done things that could help sustain it like giving workers' permits.
So the issue is that for Gaza to have a truly free state, Hamas couldn't actually be in power bc the West would assume that they'd continue attacks on Israel as the leaders of Hamas state publicly. And they haven't ceded it yet.
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Is Van Morrison’s 2021 song “They Own The Media” anti-Semitic? Or was that just old Sir George Ivan letting his freak flag fly?
You don't see the difference between that and literally lighting a flag on fire that someone is holding that isn't your property? No, I would not interpret that song as anti-semitic (and regardless, it is protected speech). When speech becomes threats of violence or actual violence, it is no longer protected speech. I'm probably not nearly as uptight as y'all imagine lol. Feel free to live in tents and do whatever you all feel is right.
Oh, I’m glad you are concerned about violence and property damage. I heard there’s a lot of it going on in Gaza right now. Some poked eyes, some burned flags. Maybe even some bumps and bruises. I heard there might have been a broken window or two.
Do you think bringing middle eastern war level violence too U.S. college campuses is a good idea? Not that I'm equating the levels of violence. Or would it be better for people to get to know each other as humans to try to prevent future violence? Do you think yelling at and attempting to intimidate American jews on college campuses is going to result in a change in U.S. or Israeli policy to end the war? Or is it just a way to "let off some steam". What are your goals?
Goals should be-- free remaining hostages, end war, create a living situation in Gaza that is humane,coexistence between human beings, not tit for tat violent protests.
I do appreciate your passion in this discussion, and understand the intertwined aspect of the Jewish identity and existence of Israel in its current state for many people, but the bolded text just isn’t going to happen magically until the subjugation and control of one group of people ceases. This is what’s driving the protests.
The only humane living situation in Gaza is one in which they have true freedom for self governance, can participate in trade and procure food and other goods, and have the same rights afforded to them as any other person.
To date, Israel has shown no interest in those outcomes, and every Israeli response to Palestinian retaliation has been magnitudes higher and resulted in huge death tolls. This shows a blatant disregard for Palestinian life and an elevation of the importance of one people over another, which in itself will never allow for a peaceful outcome for both sides, only one.
No group of people is a monolith, just as no group of protesters or counterprotesters are - sometimes emotions run high and things get ugly. But pointing out isolated incidents of “rule-breaking” in otherwise largely peaceful protests is falling back on the same tactics of the right wing during any civil rights protest from MLK to George Floyd.
This definition can definitely differ between parties, but from my assessment there was no way I could look at the way resources and goods including but not limited to water, internet, and healthcare were completely controlled by the Israeli state prior to Palestinian access and still consider that to be free access for the people of Palestine.
I’m sure there was trading of food and other goods among the people themselves, but when one state controls the access and can turn off the tap (as seen post 10/7), and has a specific group living in a surveillance state, I can’t consider that free and open trade.
I think the big issue here is that Hamas acts ideologically, not pragmatically. They put their resources into military infrastructure instead of building GDP. The military infrastructure helps them carry out their ideology, but does nothing in terms of helping their people.
Regarding surveillance, it could be said that Israel failed in its goal (protecting Israel) because Hamas was still able to build tunnel infrastructure and import/create however many weapons. And when they've had relative peace, they've done things that could help sustain it like giving workers' permits.
So the issue is that for Gaza to have a truly free state, Hamas couldn't actually be in power bc the West would assume that they'd continue attacks on Israel as the leaders of Hamas state publicly. And they haven't ceded it yet.
UNRWA was heavily relied on, technically healthcare was/is administered by Gaza Health Ministry, but my readings of on the ground accounts pointed to Israeli control of medicine and medical specialists in particular, essentially anything that would require leaving Gaza or importing items.
You’ll find no argument from me that Hamas did not act in the interest of Palestinians and has been a detriment for Palestine as a whole. Where we might disagree is what led to the election of Hamas and eventually to 10/7. I can’t see the past 40 years of Palestinian history as anything but a pressure cooker waiting to blow. A subjugated people will eventually lash out in one form or another, and what may appear as a period of “peace” for the oppressor has been anything but for the oppressed.
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(https://i.ibb.co/9Vwm7hR/IMG-20240503-191425-979.webp) (https://ibb.co/7RgxqQ7)
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https://www.democracynow.org/2024/5/3/state_dept (https://www.democracynow.org/2024/5/3/state_dept)
she looks like an ally
why would someone call her a stick in the spokes ?
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https://time.com/6325957/josh-paul-state-department-israel-arms/
This guy quit at the beginning. There have been a bunch of them that have or are going to quit according to testimony from their colleagues.
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I'm against war and genocide we've all seen what happens when protests happen peaceful or retaliatory ie.. BLM, maybe a few changes here and there but ultimately it's business as usual.
I've got my ass kicked in Seattle, DC, NYC and at Nazi rallies. I'd gladly stand for something if it felt like it would work. Sadly nothing changes.
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There are some schools that have already voted to divest from Israel and some voting in the future. It’s working to some degree.
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Is Van Morrison’s 2021 song “They Own The Media” anti-Semitic? Or was that just old Sir George Ivan letting his freak flag fly?
You don't see the difference between that and literally lighting a flag on fire that someone is holding that isn't your property? No, I would not interpret that song as anti-semitic (and regardless, it is protected speech). When speech becomes threats of violence or actual violence, it is no longer protected speech. I'm probably not nearly as uptight as y'all imagine lol. Feel free to live in tents and do whatever you all feel is right.
Oh, I’m glad you are concerned about violence and property damage. I heard there’s a lot of it going on in Gaza right now. Some poked eyes, some burned flags. Maybe even some bumps and bruises. I heard there might have been a broken window or two.
Do you think bringing middle eastern war level violence too U.S. college campuses is a good idea? Not that I'm equating the levels of violence. Or would it be better for people to get to know each other as humans to try to prevent future violence? Do you think yelling at and attempting to intimidate American jews on college campuses is going to result in a change in U.S. or Israeli policy to end the war? Or is it just a way to "let off some steam". What are your goals?
Goals should be-- free remaining hostages, end war, create a living situation in Gaza that is humane,coexistence between human beings, not tit for tat violent protests.
I do appreciate your passion in this discussion, and understand the intertwined aspect of the Jewish identity and existence of Israel in its current state for many people, but the bolded text just isn’t going to happen magically until the subjugation and control of one group of people ceases. This is what’s driving the protests.
The only humane living situation in Gaza is one in which they have true freedom for self governance, can participate in trade and procure food and other goods, and have the same rights afforded to them as any other person.
To date, Israel has shown no interest in those outcomes, and every Israeli response to Palestinian retaliation has been magnitudes higher and resulted in huge death tolls. This shows a blatant disregard for Palestinian life and an elevation of the importance of one people over another, which in itself will never allow for a peaceful outcome for both sides, only one.
No group of people is a monolith, just as no group of protesters or counterprotesters are - sometimes emotions run high and things get ugly. But pointing out isolated incidents of “rule-breaking” in otherwise largely peaceful protests is falling back on the same tactics of the right wing during any civil rights protest from MLK to George Floyd.
This definition can definitely differ between parties, but from my assessment there was no way I could look at the way resources and goods including but not limited to water, internet, and healthcare were completely controlled by the Israeli state prior to Palestinian access and still consider that to be free access for the people of Palestine.
I’m sure there was trading of food and other goods among the people themselves, but when one state controls the access and can turn off the tap (as seen post 10/7), and has a specific group living in a surveillance state, I can’t consider that free and open trade.
I think the big issue here is that Hamas acts ideologically, not pragmatically. They put their resources into military infrastructure instead of building GDP. The military infrastructure helps them carry out their ideology, but does nothing in terms of helping their people.
Regarding surveillance, it could be said that Israel failed in its goal (protecting Israel) because Hamas was still able to build tunnel infrastructure and import/create however many weapons. And when they've had relative peace, they've done things that could help sustain it like giving workers' permits.
So the issue is that for Gaza to have a truly free state, Hamas couldn't actually be in power bc the West would assume that they'd continue attacks on Israel as the leaders of Hamas state publicly. And they haven't ceded it yet.
UNRWA was heavily relied on, technically healthcare was/is administered by Gaza Health Ministry, but my readings of on the ground accounts pointed to Israeli control of medicine and medical specialists in particular, essentially anything that would require leaving Gaza or importing items.
You’ll find no argument from me that Hamas did not act in the interest of Palestinians and has been a detriment for Palestine as a whole. Where we might disagree is what led to the election of Hamas and eventually to 10/7. I can’t see the past 40 years of Palestinian history as anything but a pressure cooker waiting to blow. A subjugated people will eventually lash out in one form or another, and what may appear as a period of “peace” for the oppressor has been anything but for the oppressed.
The goal of a Hamas led Gaza is not a seaport, a power plant, etc. Their purpose is basically to militarily right the perceived wrongs of the Ls taken in 1948, the Six Day War, etc. It's fairly analogous to Hezbollah, a group which is not heavily restricted by Israel. Regardless of views on the ladt 40 years, that's where they are. We'll see where this goes next with them apparently on the verge of their second ceasefire agreement since 10/7.
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I'm against war and genocide we've all seen what happens when protests happen peaceful or retaliatory ie.. BLM, maybe a few changes here and there but ultimately it's business as usual.
I've got my ass kicked in Seattle, DC, NYC and at Nazi rallies. I'd gladly stand for something if it felt like it would work. Sadly nothing changes.
I hear you. But I'd argue Seattle (WTO?) and BLM both inspired shifts. Yes, things are still terrible but a lot of people were educated, a lot of eyes opened and dialogue created by these movements. Same with the anti-war campus movement right now. It might not get the results many want immediately but things will shift. This movement will be impossible to ignore. Already Israelis are beginning to ask why in the US so many are now against their govt's actions and Palestinians are seeing these protests and finding strength in them...both of which are moving things in the right direction.
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https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68961753
The invasion of Rafah began soon after. Israel doesn’t want the rest of the world watch as they bomb unarmed women and children.
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I wish both sides would just bury the hatchet and unite, same with Russia and Ukraine
war is dumb.
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War is indeed the dumbest thing but its not just Ukraine Vs Russia, Israel Vs Palestine...
The US and its allies have played and continue to play a huge role in creating the power dynamics that make sure there will be global conflict for generations to come.
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I wish both sides would just bury the hatchet and unite, same with Russia and Ukraine
war is dumb.
Hamas has agreed to a ceasefire and Israel has decided to sabotage it. The only peace they want involves killing all the civilians taking refuge in Rafah.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/07/israel-attack-rafah-gaza-details-latest-updated-idf-reject-hamas-ceasefire
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How about those hostages... Netanyahu couldn't care less about them, he never did. Stop calling this a "war" or "conflict". This is ethnic cleansing with the end game being a land grab of some resource rich beach front property. Always has been.
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the hostage thing was a cheap excuse for slaughtering 10s of thousands of people, mostly women and children. Anyone who used hostages as a justification for that kind of massacre already decided to feed the fascist wolf inside their heart rather than their humane one.
But this latest dismissal of a return of the hostages and Hamas agreeing to a permanent ceasefire (meaning they agree to no longer attack Israel) shows just how much justification was a lie to just ethnically cleanse Gaza.
Anyone supporting Israel still needs to wake up that the government slaughtered innocently people for racist and political reasons, not moral ones (and used the hostages as emotional leverage on them), or just accept they don’t actually have any morals are and just are cheerleaders for power and fascism.
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There is no 'hostage thing'. The hostages are not 'things'. They are humans. Always have, always will be. You are dehumanizing them. And you dare to argue invoking morals? The same for your talk about fascism. As if the hamas are not a theocratic-totalitarian -in essence fascist- organization that seeks to impose a totalitarian society with 'morals' only for those that fit in and submit themselves to their fascist views. Anyone in Gaza who does not fit in or does not comply with hamas has been a hostage and an enemy to them since hamas killed their way to power. You talk about fascism while turning a blind eye to fascism.
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There is no 'hostage thing'. The hostages are not 'things'. They are humans. Always have, always will be. You are dehumanizing them.
By thing, I mean ‘situation’. I used it in the singular, not as a simile for ‘people’.
And if anyone has dehumanized them, it’s the Israeli government who had multiple chances to negotiate release, but instead decided to murder a population of innocent people, and drop bombs all over without consideration for the safety of said hostages.
Your faux moral outrage in the wrong direction. You want to get worked up about me when the Israeli government ignored warnings about the attack and left the area minimally guarded?
Or even before that, when the Israeli government propped up Hamas as a way to create a divisive alternative to the Palestinian Authority?
And you dare to argue invoking morals? The same for your talk about fascism. As if the hamas are not a theocratic-totalitarian -in essence fascist- organization that seeks to impose a totalitarian society with 'morals' only for those that fit in and submit themselves to their fascist views. Anyone in Gaza who does not fit in or does not comply with hamas has been a hostage and an enemy to them since hamas killed their way to power. You talk about fascism while turning a blind eye to fascism.
Again, idiotic Zionists can’t comprehend that being angry at the slaughter of tens of thousands of innocent people is not the same thing as cheerleading for Hamas.
I won’t bother trying to talk to you if you are going to keep intentionally misrepresenting my position. At this point you should know that people are angry at the genocide, not happy about the actions of Hamas.
If you still keep insisting otherwise, you are a dipshit with nothing to learn or reflect on.
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There is no 'hostage thing'. The hostages are not 'things'. They are humans. Always have, always will be. You are dehumanizing them. And you dare to argue invoking morals? The same for your talk about fascism. As if the hamas are not a theocratic-totalitarian -in essence fascist- organization that seeks to impose a totalitarian society with 'morals' only for those that fit in and submit themselves to their fascist views. Anyone in Gaza who does not fit in or does not comply with hamas has been a hostage and an enemy to them since hamas killed their way to power. You talk about fascism while turning a blind eye to fascism.
Israel and IDF have been at “expansion” and “removal” since well before Hamas. Hamas is not the Palestinian people, hamas is not the 30,000+ slaughtered since last Autumn nor the millions more continually displaced. But I think you know this and feel there are fine reasons for such things as have been occurring since well before oct 7.
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Fuck Zionism and fuck all Zionists.
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There is no 'hostage thing'. The hostages are not 'things'. They are humans. Always have, always will be. You are dehumanizing them. And you dare to argue invoking morals? The same for your talk about fascism. As if the hamas are not a theocratic-totalitarian -in essence fascist- organization that seeks to impose a totalitarian society with 'morals' only for those that fit in and submit themselves to their fascist views. Anyone in Gaza who does not fit in or does not comply with hamas has been a hostage and an enemy to them since hamas killed their way to power. You talk about fascism while turning a blind eye to fascism.
The folks on this board are not aware that Israel disengaged from the gaza strip and sought to leave it alone, and the hostage taking was the result. They won't be happy until there is no state of Israel and the middle east is judenrein (or jews are dhimmis). I've realized there is no point trying to point out anything that doesn't fit their narrative or what they saw on Instagram/Telegram or heard at a protest.
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I’m not sure how to approach someone like you at this point.
You’ve been shown destruction raining down on a million innocent people, with tens of thousands murdered, and many more tens of thousands injured, widowed, and orphaned.
Yet you still reach back to these reasons that sound insane to and non-Zionist (and many, many other Jewish people) that all this needs to happen because they would do the same to us.
So I am left wondering if
A- You are just dishonest and don’t really give a shit (otherwise you would use way more convincing evidence) and are just a sociopath who doesn’t mind the destruction of human life
Or B- You have been so one-sidedly exposed to Zionist propaganda and so completely swallowed it that you cannot accept any other truth, no matter how forcefully it is shown to you again and again.
But the truth is no life is worth more or less than another. Jewish life is not worth more or less than a Palestinian.
Believing differently is what brought about the Holocaust, the genocide and the intense racism that permeates Israeli society, that allows them to think that keeping Palestinians in a jail for decades is somehow fair and ‘disengaged’ and not worthy of any kind of response.
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Fuck Zionism and fuck all Zionists.
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Not sure how much more clearly I can say that I wish Israel wasn't killing civilians then I have already. That is the difference between me and (some of) you. Some of you are happy about hostage taking and killing as long as its Israelis because... ZIONISTS. I am definitely a huge zionist and an observant jew as you all know based on my posts. Love you all.
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Not sure how much more clearly I can say that I wish Israel wasn't killing civilians then I have already. That is the difference between me and (some of) you. Some of you are happy about hostage taking and killing as long as its Israelis because... ZIONISTS. I am definitely a huge zionist and an observant jew as you all know based on my posts. Love you all.
who is happy about hostage taking?
also there are palestinian hostages.
The thing is, when you murder 30,000 people, it becomes bigger than the initial hostage situation.
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You can claim to be Zionist as much as you want. We’re not going to keep you from being what you want to be. We sure as fuck are free to express our disapproval.
It’s obvious there’s something wrong with that ideology when you automatically think we’re okay with any violence on innocent people because of whatever their identity or ideology.
You may think that way, we don’t.
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You can claim to be Zionist as much as you want. We’re not going to keep you from being what you want to be. We sure as fuck are free to express our disapproval.
It’s obvious there’s something wrong with that ideology when you automatically think we’re okay with any violence on innocent people because of whatever their identity or ideology.
You may think that way, we don’t.
Do you think Hamas is justified in armed resistance against Israel? your posts seem to imply that you do. Do you think anyone who has served in the IDF or is in the IDF is a valid target for execution?
Y'all can def. keep expressing your dissaproval-- all good!
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Resistance against Israel is justified, yes. But targeting civilians is never justifiable in my opinion. Whether it's the IRA or Hamas.
While this is a necessary discussion we can't loose sight of the power dynamic, the ratio of casualties and the current reality on the ground.
Furthermore, the 'powers that be' in Israel are ensuring their own people won't be safe for generations to come. This is absolute madness and more and more people are going to be sick of funding this atrocity.
If you care about the welfare of Israeli civilians and the Jewish diaspora you also should be calling for a ceasefire with some urgency.
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As long as the system continues to treat them with inequality and refuse them basic human rights, then they will fight for their dignity.
Having served in the military, noncombatants are off limits. When one military chooses to disregard that and treat the entire populace as if they are all viable targets, then it is hard to argue that the ones trying to retaliate should follow a rule of combat that has been completely ignored.
Are they terrorists when terrorism has been deployed on them as a strategy for decades?
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Not sure how much more clearly I can say that I wish Israel wasn't killing civilians then I have already. That is the difference between me and (some of) you. Some of you are happy about hostage taking and killing as long as its Israelis because... ZIONISTS. I am definitely a huge zionist and an observant jew as you all know based on my posts. Love you all.
No, I don’t think I’ve heard you condemn the slaughter at all.
When you actually say something (which is rare), the closest you get is some mild “I wish it wasn’t happening”, which makes it sound like you are disappointed with getting the wrong pizza toppings, not that you are horrified at the massacre of thousands and thousands of children.
What you consistently do is justify Israeli actions, which makes you sound like you support the genocide.
So yeah, you can say that shit much more clearly. Because I don’t think you believe it.
I think you believe Jewish life is worth more than Palestinian life.
And NOONE is ‘happy’ about Hamas’ actions!
You are so stuck in your black/white worldview that you can’t separate ‘supporting Hamas enthusiastically’ with ‘understanding why Palestinians would support resistance against Israel and hate Israelis when Israelis do this like this’
(https://i.ibb.co/CWLPdpJ/IMG-2238.jpg)
So fuck anyone that supports Israeli military action or that piece of shit Bibi.
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https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/10/middleeast/israel-sde-teiman-detention-whistleblowers-intl-cmd/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/10/middleeast/israel-sde-teiman-detention-whistleblowers-intl-cmd/index.html)
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Not sure how much more clearly I can say that I wish Israel wasn't killing civilians then I have already. That is the difference between me and (some of) you. Some of you are happy about hostage taking and killing as long as its Israelis because... ZIONISTS. I am definitely a huge zionist and an observant jew as you all know based on my posts. Love you all.
Fuck Zionism and fuck all Zionists.
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https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-demonstrators-torch-part-un-compound-jerusalem-2024-05-10/
https://www.npr.org/2024/05/01/1248545159/israeli-settlers-try-to-block-aid-to-gaza-as-blinken-touts-progress-on-trip-to-i#:~:text=MICHELE%20KELEMEN%2C%20BYLINE%3A%20A%20day,trucks%2C%20according%20to%20Jordanian%20officials.
Even the actions of Israeli citizens are becoming more egregious. Is this public sentiment?
Settlers blocking aid trucks to Gaza? Torching the UN and clapping while police stand idle?
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https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-demonstrators-torch-part-un-compound-jerusalem-2024-05-10/
https://www.npr.org/2024/05/01/1248545159/israeli-settlers-try-to-block-aid-to-gaza-as-blinken-touts-progress-on-trip-to-i#:~:text=MICHELE%20KELEMEN%2C%20BYLINE%3A%20A%20day,trucks%2C%20according%20to%20Jordanian%20officials.
Even the actions of Israeli citizens are becoming more egregious. Is this public sentiment?
Settlers blocking aid trucks to Gaza? Torching the UN and clapping while police stand idle?
Sorry, I misspoke. Settlers aren’t citizens.
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https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/10/middleeast/israel-sde-teiman-detention-whistleblowers-intl-cmd/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/10/middleeast/israel-sde-teiman-detention-whistleblowers-intl-cmd/index.html)
Oh look, a concentration camp where the unlicensed doctors are conducting medical experiments on inmates.
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Not sure how much more clearly I can say that I wish Israel wasn't killing civilians then I have already. That is the difference between me and (some of) you. Some of you are happy about hostage taking and killing as long as its Israelis because... ZIONISTS. I am definitely a huge zionist and an observant jew as you all know based on my posts. Love you all.
Well, judging by the response, it seems like it would be in your own interest to figure out a clearer way no? I would suggest placing the focus of your comments on ending the murder of tens of thousands of civilians, rather than defending your partisan affiliation in a way that can be interpreted as tacit approval of the current military actions of the israeli political regime. I think that would be a good start.
If you posted something like "I am a zionist and I condemn the ongoing murder of palestinian civilians" it seems unlikely anyone would go out of their way to tell you to go fuck yourself. Your current attitude is drawing acrimony and bitterness toward the group you say you want to champion, so how productive is that.
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https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/10/middleeast/israel-sde-teiman-detention-whistleblowers-intl-cmd/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/10/middleeast/israel-sde-teiman-detention-whistleblowers-intl-cmd/index.html)
Man, this has me low key crying right now
It’s almost like the Israeli government and IDF are taking pages out of the US govt and military via the Indian Removal Act of 1830, Dawes Act, and Gitmo.
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It’s almost like the Israeli government and IDF are taking pages out of the US govt and military via the Indian Removal Act of 1830, Dawes Act, and Gitmo.
There was another group of folks that did that too.
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It’s almost like the Israeli government and IDF are taking pages out of the US govt and military via the Indian Removal Act of 1830, Dawes Act, and Gitmo.
You don’t say…