Israel's right to exist

[fredgallSOTY]

Expand Quote

Expand Quote

[close]

bump

[close]

[Hmmmm Nice Bike]

I’m currently in the middle of immigrating to Israel from Chicago with my fiancé who already lived here.

As a Mexican American non Jew, as far as I can tell I’m moving to a country that isn’t perfect, but I’ll be leaving behind one that is easily worse when it comes to heinous acts of war and the treatment of it’s minorities despite some of us being indigenous to what was America before it even became “America” and others being unwillingly brought there. The hypocrisy of some Americans just baffles me.

I arrived just a few days ago and already have been going to the shelter daily(or nightly) as  we continue to get hit with rocket fire, it’s a new experience to me but the normal life for your average civilians here.

[EdLawndale]

Stay safe, Concerned_Skater. Wishing you the best.

[AnotherHardDayAtTheOffice]

Expand Quote

Expand Quote

Expand Quote

Expand Quote

[close]

bump

[close]

[close]

?

[close]

every time israel accelerates the genocide of palestine i bump that image - any questions?

You're accusing Israel of "genocide" while calling for its own death? Aware of the irony?

[Hmmmm Nice Bike]

Stay safe, Concerned_Skater. Wishing you the best.

Thanks Ed, I’ll try!

Also at least I knew what I was potentially getting myself into with each visit, but what breaks my heart is sharing the bomb shelter with frightened children from the same apartment building who were just born into this conflict without a choice.

It’s not easy for either side honestly as both experience tragic events and loss of loved ones, and I wish people would see that besides just simply wishing death upon one another like the posters above have shown.

You can believe and support either side or perhaps even support both sides towards reaching peace, but when you push such a barbaric, for the lack of a better word solution, you’re only part of the problem because you’re just spreading more hatred.

Sorry for the rant... Thanks again Ed, hope you’ve been doing well yourself!

[Madam, I'm Adam]

Expand Quote

Expand Quote

Expand Quote

Expand Quote

[close]

bump

[close]

[close]

?

[close]

every time israel accelerates the genocide of palestine i bump that image - any questions?

No questions, I just didn't understand the basis behind it. Thanks for clarifying

[Sleazy]

As a Mexican American non Jew, as far as I can tell I’m moving to a country that isn’t perfect, but I’ll be leaving behind one that is easily worse when it comes to heinous acts of war and the treatment of it’s minorities despite some of us being indigenous to what was America before it even became “America” and others being unwillingly brought there. The hypocrisy of some Americans just baffles me.

it's interesting to see folks trying to defend modern colonialism. i'm guessing you also feel the germans should keep quit about genocide.

[IUTSM]

Expand Quote

As a Mexican American non Jew, as far as I can tell I’m moving to a country that isn’t perfect, but I’ll be leaving behind one that is easily worse when it comes to heinous acts of war and the treatment of it’s minorities despite some of us being indigenous to what was America before it even became “America” and others being unwillingly brought there. The hypocrisy of some Americans just baffles me.

[close]

it's interesting to see folks trying to defend modern colonialism. i'm guessing you also feel the germans should keep quit about genocide.

[butterballs for jerry]

I’m currently in the middle of immigrating to Israel from Chicago with my fiancé who already lived here.

As a Mexican American non Jew, as far as I can tell I’m moving to a country that isn’t perfect, but I’ll be leaving behind one that is easily worse when it comes to heinous acts of war and the treatment of it’s minorities despite some of us being indigenous to what was America before it even became “America” and others being unwillingly brought there. The hypocrisy of some Americans just baffles me.

I arrived just a few days ago and already have been going to the shelter daily(or nightly) as  we continue to get hit with rocket fire, it’s a new experience to me but the normal life for your average civilians here.

I gotta say, immigrating to Israel seems like one of the dumbest things you could do. Why not the India/Pakistan border?

[TheLurper]

I don't get Israel's attempt to overrun the Palestinians... how can the (formerly secular) Jewish state attempt to just destroy another people?

I don't understand how a state with many people who have been mistreated throughout history can celebrate far-right actions that decimate another group of people. Like, after looking at the first Jewish ghettos (thought up by the Italians) to the extreme actions by the Nazis, how does one say, "It is ok to do terrible shit to another group of people based on [insert any excuse]"

I understand it is way more complicated than this, but fucking hell, what assholes post-WWII didn't see this coming? What happened at those meetings that allowed this problem to even come about? Why wasn't everything set in stone right away? Which post-war victor was in charge of this mess?

[brycickle]

This whole process started long before WW2.

[Freelancevagrant]

This whole process started long before WW2.

I’ve been dreading posting in here but I’ve felt that I should at least chime in here.

Arguably, it goes back to the destruction of the second temple. In the Babylonian Talmud, specifically tractate ketubot (111a I believe, I haven’t studied the bavli Talmud in a few years) it was said that upon our exile there were three oaths were exchanged between us (Jews) and HaShem (god). Two oaths pertained to us, Jews (or nations acting on our behalf) can not take back the land of eretz yisrael by force and in turn massively immigrate to it, or make aliyah(return) or rebel against the other nations of the world. The other oath was to the nations of the world not to subjugate the Jews, but we see how that shit turned out. Up until the Shoah, within the orthodox world, these words were considered law. Now, out of the Jewish world it is only the Haredim that hold these views. The majority of the Orthodox world was opposed to Zionism because they felt that it was a cop out, a circumvention of the three oaths that were exchanged, and a means of destroying the religious portion of being Jewish and exchanging them for use as a political point.


However, in verifiable and legitimate history, it goes back to the Balfour declaration which coincides with the British declaring war in the Ottoman Empire in 1914.

Sources: me, the bavli Talmud, and VaYoel Moshe by the Satmar Rav, Yoel Teitelbaum.

[excitableboy]

I don't get Israel's attempt to overrun the Palestinians... how can the (formerly secular) Jewish state attempt to just destroy another people?

I don't understand how a state with many people who have been mistreated throughout history can celebrate far-right actions that decimate another group of people. Like, after looking at the first Jewish ghettos (thought up by the Italians) to the extreme actions by the Nazis, how does one say, "It is ok to do terrible shit to another group of people based on [insert any excuse]"

I understand it is way more complicated than this, but fucking hell, what assholes post-WWII didn't see this coming? What happened at those meetings that allowed this problem to even come about? Why wasn't everything set in stone right away? Which post-war victor was in charge of this mess?

It's dumbfounding isn't it. I don't think we can really get around the fact that some (integral parts) of Israeli government operate on the idea of being chosen. It's something one is implored to tiptoe around for obvious reasons, but there is entitlement there.

'Even' Hannah Arendt, who was famously critical of Zionism, wrestled with the idea of Israel, writing: "A people can be a minority somewhere only if they are a majority elsewhere". It's difficult to imagine that elsewhere being somewhere else.

[IUTSM]

Expand Quote

This whole process started long before WW2.

[close]

I’ve been dreading posting in here but I’ve felt that I should at least chime in here.

Arguably, it goes back to the destruction of the second temple. In the Babylonian Talmud, specifically tractate ketubot (111a I believe, I haven’t studied the bavli Talmud in a few years) it was said that upon our exile there were three oaths were exchanged between us (Jews) and HaShem (god). Two oaths pertained to us, Jews (or nations acting on our behalf) can not take back the land of eretz yisrael by force and in turn massively immigrate to it, or make aliyah(return) or rebel against the other nations of the world. The other oath was to the nations of the world not to subjugate the Jews, but we see how that shit turned out. Up until the Shoah, within the orthodox world, these words were considered law. Now, out of the Jewish world it is only the Haredim that hold these views. The majority of the Orthodox world was opposed to Zionism because they felt that it was a cop out, a circumvention of the three oaths that were exchanged, and a means of destroying the religious portion of being Jewish and exchanging them for use as a political point.


However, in verifiable and legitimate history, it goes back to the Balfour declaration which coincides with the British declaring war in the Ottoman Empire in 1914.

Sources: me, the bavli Talmud, and VaYoel Moshe by the Satmar Rav, Yoel Teitelbaum.

Is the operative word here "was"? The only orthodox folks I have met, a handful of folks in their early 30s, have been hard-line Zionists.

[fredgallSOTY]

[Eggie Vedder]

Part of the issue is not complicated: Palestine definitely deserves its land back but the answer is definitely complicated: You can’t just ask the Israelis to go somewhere else, or ask them to live under an Arab government that won’t allow them religious freedom, or kill them all.

Israel definitely needs to chill with its response but they are also being bombed (I know not nearly as hard) and they will never agree to live together so I don’t really know how the issue will be solved.

Both sides believe in a religion that tells them they are the rightful owners to Jerusalem. And that is coming from God so no one on earth can tell them otherwise. Really the only way I can see to solve it, is if both sides just gave up their religion. Seriously they just hate each other because one group thinks the messiah will come from Ismail and the other thinks it’s Isaac. Apart from that I’m sure people on both sides probably have similar interests and would get along in a vacuum.

[matty_c]

Nope

[professional]

Part of the issue is not complicated: Palestine definitely deserves its land back but the answer is definitely complicated: You can’t just ask the Israelis to go somewhere else, or ask them to live under an Arab government that won’t allow them religious freedom, or kill them all.

Israel definitely needs to chill with its response but they are also being bombed (I know not nearly as hard) and they will never agree to live together so I don’t really know how the issue will be solved.

Both sides believe in a religion that tells them they are the rightful owners to Jerusalem. And that is coming from God so no one on earth can tell them otherwise. Really the only way I can see to solve it, is if both sides just gave up their religion. Seriously they just hate each other because one group thinks the messiah will come from Ismail and the other thinks it’s Isaac. Apart from that I’m sure people on both sides probably have similar interests and would get along in a vacuum.

Israel quite literally maintains all of the power -economically, politically, militarily- and it is grossly unfair to point at Palestinian people as being opposed to 'peace' or a 'solution'. If the statesmen+women of Israel wanted this 'conflict' to end, they are the only ones that could make that happen, but that would mean granting full human rights, safety and equality to a population of people that has been nothing but dehumanized and demonized since before the inception of Israel.

The conflict pouring into various medias is a culmination of the 73 years of oppression that Palestinians have faced, that originally stemmed from ethnic cleansing and has continued as a slow genocide since. I'll point you towards the Irgun paramilitary group, and you can go from there: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun

The dynamic is a result settler-colonization, and not one rooted in religion. Every struggle the Palestinian peoples have and currently face, is the same struggle of Indigenous populations around the world. It is all connected.

You cannot expect to continually back an animal into a corner and not have it react violently when it has no other options for dignity or survival.

[Eggie Vedder]

Expand Quote

Part of the issue is not complicated: Palestine definitely deserves its land back but the answer is definitely complicated: You can’t just ask the Israelis to go somewhere else, or ask them to live under an Arab government that won’t allow them religious freedom, or kill them all.

Israel definitely needs to chill with its response but they are also being bombed (I know not nearly as hard) and they will never agree to live together so I don’t really know how the issue will be solved.

Both sides believe in a religion that tells them they are the rightful owners to Jerusalem. And that is coming from God so no one on earth can tell them otherwise. Really the only way I can see to solve it, is if both sides just gave up their religion. Seriously they just hate each other because one group thinks the messiah will come from Ismail and the other thinks it’s Isaac. Apart from that I’m sure people on both sides probably have similar interests and would get along in a vacuum.

[close]

Israel quite literally maintains all of the power -economically, politically, militarily- and it is grossly unfair to point at Palestinian people as being opposed to 'peace' or a 'solution'. If the statesmen+women of Israel wanted this 'conflict' to end, they are the only ones that could make that happen, but that would mean granting full human rights, safety and equality to a population of people that has been nothing but dehumanized and demonized since before the inception of Israel.

The conflict pouring into various medias is a culmination of the 73 years of oppression that Palestinians have faced, that originally stemmed from ethnic cleansing and has continued as a slow genocide since. I'll point you towards the Irgun paramilitary group, and you can go from there: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun

The dynamic is a result settler-colonization, and not one rooted in religion. Every struggle the Palestinian peoples have and currently face, is the same struggle of Indigenous populations around the world. It is all connected.

You cannot expect to continually back an animal into a corner and not have it react violently when it has no other options for dignity or survival.

I certainly agree that Israel holds the power and is the aggressor. I am not trying to say Israel has a right to the land. I didn’t mean to imply otherwise. I was just trying to say that it is a complex issue to resolve. It’s not as easy as both sides agreeing to live together because they both hold religious beliefs that would not allow them to live under the other sides government or a secular government or agree to leave their perceived Holy Land. Israel is doing absolutely atrocious things and they are in the wrong. It would be great if Israel could be dissolved peacefully but it just can’t be.

Edit: I also don’t mean to imply that they shouldn't attempt to resolve the issue. The only point I wanted to make is both sides believe so strongly in their side that resolving it will be difficult. That doesn’t mean I think their way of thinking is justified.

[excitableboy]

Expand Quote

Expand Quote

Part of the issue is not complicated: Palestine definitely deserves its land back but the answer is definitely complicated: You can’t just ask the Israelis to go somewhere else, or ask them to live under an Arab government that won’t allow them religious freedom, or kill them all.

Israel definitely needs to chill with its response but they are also being bombed (I know not nearly as hard) and they will never agree to live together so I don’t really know how the issue will be solved.

Both sides believe in a religion that tells them they are the rightful owners to Jerusalem. And that is coming from God so no one on earth can tell them otherwise. Really the only way I can see to solve it, is if both sides just gave up their religion. Seriously they just hate each other because one group thinks the messiah will come from Ismail and the other thinks it’s Isaac. Apart from that I’m sure people on both sides probably have similar interests and would get along in a vacuum.

[close]

Israel quite literally maintains all of the power -economically, politically, militarily- and it is grossly unfair to point at Palestinian people as being opposed to 'peace' or a 'solution'. If the statesmen+women of Israel wanted this 'conflict' to end, they are the only ones that could make that happen, but that would mean granting full human rights, safety and equality to a population of people that has been nothing but dehumanized and demonized since before the inception of Israel.

The conflict pouring into various medias is a culmination of the 73 years of oppression that Palestinians have faced, that originally stemmed from ethnic cleansing and has continued as a slow genocide since. I'll point you towards the Irgun paramilitary group, and you can go from there: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun

The dynamic is a result settler-colonization, and not one rooted in religion. Every struggle the Palestinian peoples have and currently face, is the same struggle of Indigenous populations around the world. It is all connected.

You cannot expect to continually back an animal into a corner and not have it react violently when it has no other options for dignity or survival.

[close]

I certainly agree that Israel holds the power and is the aggressor. I am not trying to say Israel has a right to the land. I didn’t mean to imply otherwise. I was just trying to say that it is a complex issue to resolve. It’s not as easy as both sides agreeing to live together because they both hold religious beliefs that would not allow them to live under the other sides government or a secular government or agree to leave their perceived Holy Land. Israel is doing absolutely atrocious things and they are in the wrong. It would be great if Israel could be dissolved peacefully but it just can’t be.

It's also difficult to conceive of a resolution without a drastic shift in American politics. Even if Israel's electorate makes a sudden and lasting shift to the left, so long as the billions keep pouring in from across the Atlantic the power imbalance will remain.

[Sleazy]

the part that isn't complex is that we shouldn't get involved or have to become experts on all this religious non-sense. it's modern colonialism, plain and simple. you could take religion out of it and they'd still be fighting because there not enough land to go around. we are getting drug into this because the evangelicals are fucking weirdos who want the end of the world to come about. every time this issue comes up i feel like al jourgenson had the right idea @6:42 in this song

[cky enthusiast]

Part of the issue is not complicated: Palestine definitely deserves its land back but the answer is definitely complicated: You can’t just ask the Israelis to go somewhere else, or ask them to live under an Arab government that won’t allow them religious freedom, or kill them all.

Israel definitely needs to chill with its response but they are also being bombed (I know not nearly as hard) and they will never agree to live together so I don’t really know how the issue will be solved.

Both sides believe in a religion that tells them they are the rightful owners to Jerusalem. And that is coming from God so no one on earth can tell them otherwise. Really the only way I can see to solve it, is if both sides just gave up their religion. Seriously they just hate each other because one group thinks the messiah will come from Ismail and the other thinks it’s Isaac. Apart from that I’m sure people on both sides probably have similar interests and would get along in a vacuum.

out of the litany of economic and social factors you can use to actually explain the conflict you decide to blame religion- something i’m sure both sides are utilizing to cope in an incredibly stressful time (regardless of who you think is right). idk what else to say besides i hope your CTE symptoms are manageable

[Eggie Vedder]

Expand Quote

Part of the issue is not complicated: Palestine definitely deserves its land back but the answer is definitely complicated: You can’t just ask the Israelis to go somewhere else, or ask them to live under an Arab government that won’t allow them religious freedom, or kill them all.

Israel definitely needs to chill with its response but they are also being bombed (I know not nearly as hard) and they will never agree to live together so I don’t really know how the issue will be solved.

Both sides believe in a religion that tells them they are the rightful owners to Jerusalem. And that is coming from God so no one on earth can tell them otherwise. Really the only way I can see to solve it, is if both sides just gave up their religion. Seriously they just hate each other because one group thinks the messiah will come from Ismail and the other thinks it’s Isaac. Apart from that I’m sure people on both sides probably have similar interests and would get along in a vacuum.

[close]

out of the litany of economic and social factors you can use to actually explain the conflict you decide to blame religion- something i’m sure both sides are utilizing to cope in an incredibly stressful time (regardless of who you think is right). idk what else to say besides i hope your CTE symptoms are manageable

Definitely economic influences and US financial/military aid are also complicating the issue. I agree Israel is wrong and the reason they are in power is because of western aid that would never be extended to the Palestinians which makes this a massively unfair fight but both parties have religious ties to the land and Americans religious beliefs are being used boost right wing support for Israel. Whether the root problem is economic interest or not, religion is a massive part of the argument that can’t be pushed aside. It’s the whole reason they chose that spot even though it was already occupied. Even if religion was just being used as a farce to get a democratic foothold in the region, it is still the medium being used to hype everyone up. Some Jewish people believe that Israel is unjust because they shouldn’t live on the land until the messiah comes but others are willing to fight to the death in order to keep control. Zionist ideology mixed with state of the art military equipment plus being in the wrong is what makes it complicated. Religion gives people hope of an afterlife and often a reason to be nice to others but in this case, it is giving Israel a reason to justify its actions to kill innocent people.

The only point I wanted to make is that the issue is indeed complicated however you look at it. If I could push a button to go back to pre-1947 Palestine, I would but even if the west pulls out, it’s still going to be a bloody, terrible, long lasting battle. Yes it is simple that Israel is attacking with massively unfair artillery and should be held accountable but the issue itself has a ton of different players and interests that will make solving the issue and holding Israel accountable extremely complex.

[Abyss1]

Lets not forget about the stuxnet virus the IDF released into the wild to hack Irans energy infrastructure ...all because of self defense.  Now guess what hackers are going after now globally

[DaleSr]

I'm glad that we're finally getting some firm opposition to the numerous crimes the idf commits in this thread after pages of war crimes apologia by frenchie. Israel is not a chosen master race thanks to the Bible, they are people committing blatant genocide against the Palestinians

[fs1/2cab]

I am definitely an outsider in that situation and I can only speak, how that conflict takes over to the rest of the world. Of course I have no idea how it is to live in Israel or Palestine and no one is in the position to decide, who should live where.

I live in Berlin, Germany and we have a big arab/turkish population in most big cities. Tomorrow will be another anti-semitic demonstrations everywhere. Some Israel flags already were set on fire in the last few days and police here now protects jewish buildings.
I have one jewish friend, a really cute, shy and scared girl. It is terrible for her in Germany. Arabs seem to hate her and Nazis hate her too.

I couldn't contribute anything useful here, but I think it is horrible how people living here, far away from the middle east, also try to spread the hatred.

[bigdave]

I cant even with this fucking thread.

Some of the kookery here is just replicated from the bullshit from the vaccine thread.

Get fucked Frenchie.

Free Palestine. Get vaccinated.

[excitableboy]

If only Bokononism would take hold of this godforsaken speck of ours.

[PERILL]

I know I’m gonna look dumb as fuck for asking this, but someone give me a general rundown of what the core of the conflict is between Israel and Palestine is? From what I gather, it’s rooted in religion, but you guys started talking about economics, World War 2, Karl Marx, France, and U.S. involvement (per usual) and I was completely out of the loop the whole time.

[white guy in a durag]

I cant even with this fucking thread.

Some of the kookery here is just replicated from the bullshit from the vaccine thread.

Get fucked Frenchie.

Free Palestine. Get vaccinated.

Don't worry, it's all bobby puleo sock puppet accounts. We're the only two real users.