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I don't have answers for those questions, man. I won't pretend I do. But if, as you say, you hold France accountable for what happens in Algeria today, then should we hold Turkey responsable for what happens in Greece? After 500 years of Ottoman rule? If there is no "statute of limitations", there's just no end to the blame game. I know a lot of people who think Spain's conquistadors were plain evil, but then should we blame the 700 years of arab occupation for turning Spain into an agressive and militarized society?
What I've been saying from the beginning is that the idea of colonialism being a western concept is just false. It's a human concept.
Half paying attention to this thread but...
Algeria's independence was less than 60 years ago compared to the First Hellenic Republic coming about 200 years ago. The timing here is all the more important when we consider global growth in wealth prior to the 1800s was minimal and it exploded after that (thanks industrial revolution).
Second, its not like the French left Algeria in a great financial situation. Having to fight for independence wrecked the economy and the settlers sabotaged quite a bit of the machinery on their way out. And that the Evian Agreement was never going to hold as it gave the French far too much (especially in relation to oil). The Evian Agreement was no Marshall Plan.
Third, it ignores the political vacuum that existed after the war.
This isn't to put all the blame on the French (obv. the French can't be blamed for drops in oil prices, which the economy relies on heavily), but I sometimes feel it is hard to bark at a country, "So what if we screwed you over. You should have done better picking up the pieces of your shattered economy and fractured political landscape."
Also, it would be interesting to compare which former French colonies boomed in their independence and which ones struggled and what the differences were in terms of gaining independence, natural resources, education at the time of independence, percent of country owned by local bus/gov rather than foreign bus/gov, political leadership, and so on.
all solid points Lurper. as i said in the comment that Frenchie was responding to, if one is to have any kind of realistic talk about accountability and consequences in this conversation, then the scale/scope of the damage caused by a colonialist power throughout the process of it entering, occupying, AND leaving another country all need to be considered--you basically put some meat on the bones of my comment...
edit: if there's a logic and/or value system governing how "reps" work in here, i'm sure it escapes me--i don't see any discernible correlation between my comments/participation in here, and the seemingly independent life of my "rep." it seems to go up and go down based on some force/process that might as well be cosmic, if it's a matter of how much i understand it. that being said, Frenchie old sport, even if i could, i would never kook you for this thread or for your comments in it. out of all of the issues in our day and age, this one needs to be discussed. as i said earlier, i'm always happy to see when my freshman students have the sand to tussle with this topic when we do our big researched argument paper in the ENG 1020 classes i teach.
considering how civil this thread has seemed to remain--and regardless if any opinions have actually been changed--it doesn't seem that anyone has espoused any toxic or extreme sentiments for any one position in the argument, and it doesn't seem that any feelings have been hurt, so as far as i'm concerned, a positive and important conversation and thread...
well if we're going to talk about invasions and occupation, one might point out that France was invaded, occupied and pretty much half destroyed just a little before the Algerian war, in that little regional conflict called WWII. Now I'm being ironic here, but whole French cities like Rouen, Le Havre and Toulon were almost totally razed. And a lot of the shady shit French politicians did after the war actually has its roots in the resistance: these guys were used to underground and/or violent operations. Watch Army of shadows by Melville, on this topic.
And this is what I mean by "the blame game having no end". France obviously handled decolonization very badly (cough cough Vietnam war....) but WWII has to be considered as well if judging that period.
In any case, my point is not to defend France or French politics/history, which has stains like any other country's, it wasn't my original intention. My point is rather that war and invasion are the normal state of affairs in world history.
Anyways to those of you that gave me solid arguments instead of insults, I think we would agree generally on my original point: there should be room for a Jewish state in the Middle East, and saying "death to Israel" (or death to any country) should not be tolerated on this forum IMHO.
->Deputy Wendell: I'm reading this right now, if you mention your own country's colonialist past. It's an awesome book!
Oh btw about rep: it's still kind of a mystery to me too man! and basically I dont care. I knew this thread was going to attract me a lot of flak, but why should I care about my "rep" on a skateboarding forum really? A little too old to try and be "popular".