Author Topic: External Recorder Megathread (Bypass Tape Deck for VX)  (Read 6727 times)

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pj chad

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Re: External Recorder Megathread (Bypass Tape Deck for VX)
« Reply #30 on: February 08, 2021, 09:04:59 PM »
I saw that this morning and thought this might be interesting for some people here.

This man has a cheap alternative to the recorders presented in this thread.
It works through AV output, so the quality will not be as good as footages captured by the FireWire.
Audio is mono too, but this device is 3 to 4 times cheaper than a HVR-MRC1.

http://youtu.be/K5A4vG5UER4

The yellow composite cable is analog which has a max throughput of 200Mb/s VS firewire 400 which is 400Mb/s. Audio is analog as well, but my understanding is that it is stereo rather than mono since it uses the red/white cables to split the audio into separate channels. I'd love to see a side by side comparison, each of which exported without any compression in order to see how drastic of an actual difference the video/audio is.

Thomas

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Re: External Recorder Megathread (Bypass Tape Deck for VX)
« Reply #31 on: February 09, 2021, 12:12:33 AM »
Well, that's a mission for @suckmadeck  ;D
Possibilities are everywhere, search and enjoy.

suckmadeck

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Re: External Recorder Megathread (Bypass Tape Deck for VX)
« Reply #32 on: February 09, 2021, 09:39:07 AM »
I've seen that video! Honestly it's an alright idea, if you're just doing it for fun then sure it'll work no problem. I'm literally in pre-production of the part where I talk about these recorders, the Atomos and some super rare DTE devices. It's gonna take a bit of time, but hopefully it's as helpful as my part 1.

suckmadeck

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Re: External Recorder Megathread (Bypass Tape Deck for VX)
« Reply #33 on: February 09, 2021, 09:44:48 AM »
However I have done some tests, using the analog option AND the firewire option. No skating unfortunately but it should show the difference between the 2 options. 

Pappy Jones

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Re: External Recorder Megathread (Bypass Tape Deck for VX)
« Reply #34 on: February 11, 2021, 12:34:50 PM »
That cheaper option certainly seems great if you're just having fun and don't care about quality loss and not getting that crispy vx1000 audio. But at that point why not have a random/cheaper handycam or something? I'm not trying to shoot it down too hard or anything but I can't imagine going through the trouble of having the vx1000/mk1 setup and not forking over the extra couple hundred to get what the the look and sound you're supposed to get out of that camera. But to each their own. I'm interested to see suckmadeck's video.

Also, I thankfully solved the issues I was having with my hvr mrc1. I had deduced that it couldn't be a FireWire connection issue because when I switched my camera to VTR mode, it always said "DV IN". But alas, I got another cable anyways just to try it and my memory recorder has worked great ever since. I'm so stoked to have this setup going.

doyle

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Re: External Recorder Megathread (Bypass Tape Deck for VX)
« Reply #35 on: February 16, 2021, 04:28:20 PM »
Just got an MRC1 set up:




I was worried about how heavy/annoying/in the way it would be, but it seems to be pretty nice in this set up.

All I had to get was this mount and this firewire cable, and I used an old  1/4" screw to cold shoe adapter (similar to this) that I had from an old light.

Hyped to try it out and see how it feels to actually film with it.

pedro_mayn

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Re: External Recorder Megathread (Bypass Tape Deck for VX)
« Reply #36 on: February 17, 2021, 01:28:16 AM »
Just got an MRC1 set up:




I was worried about how heavy/annoying/in the way it would be, but it seems to be pretty nice in this set up.

All I had to get was this mount and this firewire cable, and I used an old  1/4" screw to cold shoe adapter (similar to this) that I had from an old light.

Hyped to try it out and see how it feels to actually film with it.

That looks pretty cool like that, in fact I might change how my setup is mounted (it doesn't seem to have so much bend at the rear of the cable like mine does).

How do you place it in the bag like that, though? I only struggle a wee bit for room with how mine is at the moment.
i donít think any of you are real, i think slap was invented by my mom to make me think people want to talk to me


doyle

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Re: External Recorder Megathread (Bypass Tape Deck for VX)
« Reply #37 on: February 17, 2021, 10:19:58 AM »
How do you place it in the bag like that, though? I only struggle a wee bit for room with how mine is at the moment.

I haven't really thought about that yet. The whole thing fits pretty snug-ly in the bag I've got, but I don't think it's a good idea to keep it there put together. I'm already kind of scared of something coming loose while filming, and shaking around in a bag would probably loosen up the mounts through time.

bataaard

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Re: External Recorder Megathread (Bypass Tape Deck for VX)
« Reply #38 on: February 25, 2021, 01:31:10 AM »
https://www.instagram.com/p/CLsHZwVFggv/

mikecrook:
Quote
"Im extremely happy to say today marks the start of building a fully integrated digital recording into a VX1000, big thanks to a long time friend Bow who has dropped off a grail of vx1ís to mess about with!

Still need some parts, if you are interested in helping out the project please DM. I want to say this is not a money project, this is a pure passion project to help everyone. Im doing the best I can to be transparent on the project and to find a way so you all can do this yourself from home. Lets keep the VX1000 alive!

pedro_mayn

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Re: External Recorder Megathread (Bypass Tape Deck for VX)
« Reply #39 on: February 25, 2021, 02:32:31 AM »
Yeah my homie was talking about this. Crazy stuff.
i donít think any of you are real, i think slap was invented by my mom to make me think people want to talk to me


Allen.

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Re: External Recorder Megathread (Bypass Tape Deck for VX)
« Reply #40 on: February 25, 2021, 06:49:05 AM »
I knew someone would do that. This is so sick.
For someone w.no signature ur awfully hostile, & that is why I do this

pedro_mayn

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Re: External Recorder Megathread (Bypass Tape Deck for VX)
« Reply #41 on: April 10, 2021, 12:37:24 PM »
Anyone who uses the MRC1 had any experience of this?

This is something I have never experienced with the MRC1 until today. It's possibly a CF card related issue more than the device its self. It is probably my error really as I didn't format the card before I came out.

I was filming for a bit and after about 20-25 clips gathered filming so far I needed to change the VX's battery seeing as it was about to go, so I did the usual; powered the MRC down and then the VX in that order. I put it all back on and powered it all up (again in an order;HVR and then VX, as per norm).

However somehow the card showed as if you formatted it; with no clips and the time remaining on the card was reset to the full duration of the card. Luckily nothing lost, but very odd. I begrudgingly put a tape in as a back up for a remainder of the sesh.

I did plug the CF card in via a memory card reader and rendered the clips, but nothing was done differently (no deletion of clips via the computer nor do I ever format through the PC, only the device).

Sorry if it's a slog of a post, but any help is appreciated. Hopefully it's a one off!
i donít think any of you are real, i think slap was invented by my mom to make me think people want to talk to me


pedro_mayn

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Re: External Recorder Megathread (Bypass Tape Deck for VX)
« Reply #42 on: April 10, 2021, 03:11:39 PM »
Ok this gets odder..

I plug it into my PC, the footy is all there! However it's split the footage up in some strange way. It's somehow still got footage from a session that shouldn't be there from last week, that I did format.

The clips didn't overwrite, but instead played on from where each clip left off from on that day on Sunday (the day I had formatted the footage from). So;

it starts with a clip from today, then in the same clip it starts off from something filmed the other day - if that makes sense? It also starts to go into Thursday's footage (where I hadn't formatted it).

I think there could be a firmware issue or something wrong with this exact CF card. I mean, the footy is there but I don't know what type of shit could happen in the future with it, so will run a different card.
i donít think any of you are real, i think slap was invented by my mom to make me think people want to talk to me


Sidewalk Funk.

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Re: External Recorder Megathread (Bypass Tape Deck for VX)
« Reply #43 on: June 29, 2021, 02:04:25 PM »
Came across this recent video from Transworld that I figured should be added to this thread.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWDUfnEiDps

Pappy Jones

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Re: External Recorder Megathread (Bypass Tape Deck for VX)
« Reply #44 on: July 22, 2021, 06:19:44 PM »
I have a question directed towards anyone using the MRC1, or just anyone has more knowledge than myself on interlaced/progressive footage. I use the mrc1 with my vx1000. On my old macbook, everything I filmed looked really crisp. The footage was always automatically deinterlaced. (I know the device only records footage that way). So now, on my new macbook, I've noticed that every clip comes out looking interlaced and weird. Attempting to deinterlace or do anything in Premiere has yielded zero results. I can't seem to get the footage to look different. Any advice or ideas are greatly appreciated as I'm getting pretty desperate. My old computer was 32 bit and my new one is 64 bit. Does this have anything to do with it? How is everyone else with a newer operating system making vx videos that don't look shitty? Help please

Here are some example stills of how it's looking:

« Last Edit: July 22, 2021, 06:29:11 PM by Pappy Jones »

doyle

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Re: External Recorder Megathread (Bypass Tape Deck for VX)
« Reply #45 on: July 22, 2021, 06:35:19 PM »
There are a few things it could be. Try right clicking the clips (on any timeline) - Field Options - Always Deinterlace.

Also try dragging a clip in your Project window directly onto the New Item icon (folded piece of paper in the bottom right of the Project window) to make a new sequence with the same settings as the raw file. Then try exporting that out however you normally would (just with Progressive as the Field Order in the export video settings).

And for the last question, if you export VX footage as a up-resed H.264 file (1440 x 1080 for normal HD) with up to 10 or 12mbps bitrate, it should look good on Youtube. And you can also change the frame rate to 60 if you want that smoother look like the Skate Video Vault videos, as a example.

Pappy Jones

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Re: External Recorder Megathread (Bypass Tape Deck for VX)
« Reply #46 on: July 22, 2021, 07:00:48 PM »
Thanks for the quick response Doyle! Unfortunately, I've already tried these things and haven't had any success. I'm starting to go crazy because it's almost like the video files are just locked this way now and can't be changed.

Even when I tried them in a 60fps timeline, it would just repeat the same shitty looking frame rather than change the playback at all. Iíve been making videos for a long time so I understand video fields, deinterlacing, and all that and how to change them but nothing seems to change the footage I have. It really makes no sense. No luck in Premiere or After Effects.

It's a bummer because I'm not editing or uploading this footage myself for once, it's for a company's video and the deadline is at the end of the month and about half the clips I've filmed have been since I got my new computer.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2021, 10:57:38 PM by Pappy Jones »

doyle

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Re: External Recorder Megathread (Bypass Tape Deck for VX)
« Reply #47 on: July 23, 2021, 01:28:09 PM »
Are you using AVI or Raw DV on the MRC1? I've always used Raw DV and never had this problem. If you want to send me a random clip I can try to take a look, just PM me.

pj chad

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Re: External Recorder Megathread (Bypass Tape Deck for VX)
« Reply #48 on: July 23, 2021, 07:53:44 PM »
Thanks for the quick response Doyle! Unfortunately, I've already tried these things and haven't had any success. I'm starting to go crazy because it's almost like the video files are just locked this way now and can't be changed.

Even when I tried them in a 60fps timeline, it would just repeat the same shitty looking frame rather than change the playback at all. Iíve been making videos for a long time so I understand video fields, deinterlacing, and all that and how to change them but nothing seems to change the footage I have. It really makes no sense. No luck in Premiere or After Effects.

It's a bummer because I'm not editing or uploading this footage myself for once, it's for a company's video and the deadline is at the end of the month and about half the clips I've filmed have been since I got my new computer.

i've never heard/seen of this before. how are you capturing your clips from the HVR? are you just using a card reader and clicking and dragging? if you are, you should give this a shot:



it's a thunderbolt to firewire800 -> firewire800 to firewire400 -> firewire 400 8pin to 8pin. when i plug this into my HVR, it mounts it like a normal card reader. you can also use this to capture directly into FCP/iMovie and i imagine Premiere as well. i'd be interested to see if that makes any difference.

have you tried testing with a different VX? have you tried uploading a clip on your macbook from an old minidv tape? what was your old macbook, and what is your new macbook?


Pappy Jones

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Re: External Recorder Megathread (Bypass Tape Deck for VX)
« Reply #49 on: July 24, 2021, 12:15:08 AM »
So I've somewhat figured it out. But I'm not out of the water yet. From my understanding, Adobe programs no longer support .DV files. I've been shooting everything as raw dv since I got the device in December. Adobe won't import the clips so I've been letting Quicktime convert them to .mov files. For some reason, on my old computer, Quicktime would convert them to progressive. But on my new computer it keeps the new .mov files as interlaced and it's almost like they're locked down that way. I read somewhere that iMovie accepts .DV files so I tried importing the raw DV files into iMovie and Voila! The clips imported and are all de-interlaced and look good. So strange that iMovie can do what I need and Premiere can't. I know I've tried de-interlacing the converted .mov files in Premiere correctly and it just won't do anything.

Anyways, I would hate for my only solution to be to import the files into iMovie and re-export them just to get them looking normal. Kind of afraid of some quality loss but not many updated apps seem to accept .DV files anymore. I was still running an older operating system with FCP7 on my old computer and all the old footage looks great.

pj chad, I'm just dragging the clips over. I could give your method a shot.

doyle, I'll pm you

suckmadeck

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Re: External Recorder Megathread (Bypass Tape Deck for VX)
« Reply #50 on: July 24, 2021, 06:02:06 AM »
So I've somewhat figured it out. But I'm not out of the water yet. From my understanding, Adobe programs no longer support .DV files. I've been shooting everything as raw dv since I got the device in December. Adobe won't import the clips so I've been letting Quicktime convert them to .mov files. For some reason, on my old computer, Quicktime would convert them to progressive. But on my new computer it keeps the new .mov files as interlaced and it's almost like they're locked down that way. I read somewhere that iMovie accepts .DV files so I tried importing the raw DV files into iMovie and Voila! The clips imported and are all de-interlaced and look good. So strange that iMovie can do what I need and Premiere can't. I know I've tried de-interlacing the converted .mov files in Premiere correctly and it just won't do anything.

Anyways, I would hate for my only solution to be to import the files into iMovie and re-export them just to get them looking normal. Kind of afraid of some quality loss but not many updated apps seem to accept .DV files anymore. I was still running an older operating system with FCP7 on my old computer and all the old footage looks great.

pj chad, I'm just dragging the clips over. I could give your method a shot.

doyle, I'll pm you

Ere, DV is interlaced, if you're editing them as progressive clips I'd be worried that it's only gonna be 30p/25p instead of 60i or 50i

Pappy Jones

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Re: External Recorder Megathread (Bypass Tape Deck for VX)
« Reply #51 on: July 24, 2021, 08:33:13 PM »
Expand Quote
So I've somewhat figured it out. But I'm not out of the water yet. From my understanding, Adobe programs no longer support .DV files. I've been shooting everything as raw dv since I got the device in December. Adobe won't import the clips so I've been letting Quicktime convert them to .mov files. For some reason, on my old computer, Quicktime would convert them to progressive. But on my new computer it keeps the new .mov files as interlaced and it's almost like they're locked down that way. I read somewhere that iMovie accepts .DV files so I tried importing the raw DV files into iMovie and Voila! The clips imported and are all de-interlaced and look good. So strange that iMovie can do what I need and Premiere can't. I know I've tried de-interlacing the converted .mov files in Premiere correctly and it just won't do anything.

Anyways, I would hate for my only solution to be to import the files into iMovie and re-export them just to get them looking normal. Kind of afraid of some quality loss but not many updated apps seem to accept .DV files anymore. I was still running an older operating system with FCP7 on my old computer and all the old footage looks great.

pj chad, I'm just dragging the clips over. I could give your method a shot.

doyle, I'll pm you
[close]

Ere, DV is interlaced, if you're editing them as progressive clips I'd be worried that it's only gonna be 30p/25p instead of 60i or 50i
Eh, I mean other than the odd person here and there experimenting with vx footage on a 60fps timeline, almost everyone is working with a normal 29.97 timeline for vx footage so that wouldnít bother me.

Iím still just trying to figure out why footage recorded with the MRC1 was crisp and de-interlaced on my old computer, but when shot the exact same way it comes out with combing and interlaced frames on my new computer. And most modern applications donít seem to be able to de-interlace the footage besides iMovie.

If you watch any properly done vx video and pause it, the frames should never look like the ones I posted above. The mrc1 has been awesome as my tape deck is fucked at this point, and I shot in raw DV because thatís what everyone has said to do. But this issue is really messing with me.

It seems as though if Adobe would accept the raw DV files, all my problems would be solved. Why would they stop doing that? Two decades were shot in that format easily.

bataaard

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Re: External Recorder Megathread (Bypass Tape Deck for VX)
« Reply #52 on: July 26, 2021, 12:06:06 AM »
best workflow is to edit with your interlaced files, and only the final export should be progressive.

Pappy Jones

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Re: External Recorder Megathread (Bypass Tape Deck for VX)
« Reply #53 on: July 26, 2021, 12:31:20 AM »
best workflow is to edit with your interlaced files, and only the final export should be progressive.
Thanks Batard, I agree. Adobe just isn't accepting my raw interlaced files. I have to convert them with Quicktime first and then they're locked as is and can't be de-interlaced upon export. I've talked to some people with the latest version of Premiere who have had the same problem. But others have said Premiere will still accept their .DV files. Before I got a new computer and re-downloaded Premiere, everything was working fine for me. I'm still trying to figure out a solution.

bataaard

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Re: External Recorder Megathread (Bypass Tape Deck for VX)
« Reply #54 on: July 27, 2021, 01:17:48 AM »
in your project panel, right click on your footage, go to "modify", "interpret footage" then in field order, conform to lower field first

that should do the trick.

(i think your newly compressed file with quicktime doesn't have the field info embedded, and premiere by default thinks it has no field)

ImmanuelCunt

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Re: External Recorder Megathread (Bypass Tape Deck for VX)
« Reply #55 on: July 27, 2021, 02:58:11 AM »
I am thinking about "building" my own external recorder. I have an extra firewire card on hand and i think about buying an raspberry pi 4 compute module and io board which has an pcie socket. Unfortunately nobody has tested an IEEE 1394 card on the pi. At least the card works without any problems on linux. The initial costs to test it would be:

Compute Module 4GB with WIFI ~50 Eur (maybe 2GB would be enough)
IO Board ~38 Eur
(PCI-E Firewire Card ~15-20 Eur)

If that works one could think about designing a case for 3D printing but one would need to get the card in a good position by using a pci-e riser ribbon cable (9 Eur) and figure out how to mount it properly. Maybe one could simply remove the slot bracket for the pc case and hot glue it somewhere or use the mounting holes for the slot bracket to mount it to a self designed case. The whole case and mounting situation is what I am the most unsure about.
In case one figures out all of the above a sufficient power bank(12V, 2.1A is needed for the board when using the pci slot) would add 60 - 80 Eur, at least that was the first one I discovered. I think my pcie firewire card is pcie x1 so it should be limited to 12V and 0.5 A. PCI-E x4 is limited 2.1A and 12V so that might not work.

IMO the steps would be:
1.) Try to get the card working on the pi
2.) Setup a hot spot on the pi or connect it to a hot spot from mobile phone
3.) a) Setup web server which emits dvgrab commands
     b) Setup video preview in web server
     c) Optional: Simple hardware buttons via GPIO to start/stop recording and a simple led
4.) Design case.

If 1 works, then 2 and 3 would be really straight forward. 4. would be a pain in the ass. At least for me as I am completely unfamiliar with 3D printing and designing for it. And I don't know the cost for such a print (and highly likely failures). There are some models for printing cases for the pi + io module on which one could base a design.

In the end my guess is that the price would be approximately the same like a lot of these recorders (250-300), at least in material cost for developement, but one would have some advantages:
1.) Possible to directly record to usb stick
2.) Preview on mobile via web server
3.) No mechanical hdd like in some of those recorders
4.) Maintainable. One should be able to swap all of the components.

Disadvantages:
Basically the biggest problem would be to get it compact and robust. Figuring out the whole mounting of the card, the power bank and the pi and then mount it to the camera. And I have absolutely no idea about modelling for 3D printing. Even the cooling of the pi might be a problem. The power bank is also comparable heavy and large (20.9 x 19.6 x 5.2 cm; 450 Grams). For reference the fire wire card is 1cm x 6.5 cm x 9.5 (hxwxl) without the slot bracket.

It is very likely that I think way too much ahead, after all nobody has even tried to get this kind of card working on a pi let alone with success. One might need to compile the kernel to have the necessary modules for firewire.  Unfortunately I won't have time for any of this before mid October as well and I am still not sure if this is even a good idea. I just saw the pi 4 compute module has a pcie port and this immediately came to my mind. This post somehow completely lost structure..

Edit: If it does not work on the pi an alternative one could use an Odroid H2+ (that is x86) or something similar with a m2 slot. But the power supply would be a lot more difficult. One would need an extra source of power for the m2 to pcie adapter. And I don't know anything about that stuff. But apparently people even got GPUs working on it (with computer power adapters).
« Last Edit: July 27, 2021, 03:23:10 AM by ImmanuelCunt »

suckmadeck

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Re: External Recorder Megathread (Bypass Tape Deck for VX)
« Reply #56 on: July 27, 2021, 08:10:57 AM »
I am thinking about "building" my own external recorder. I have an extra firewire card on hand and i think about buying an raspberry pi 4 compute module and io board which has an pcie socket. Unfortunately nobody has tested an IEEE 1394 card on the pi. At least the card works without any problems on linux. The initial costs to test it would be:

Compute Module 4GB with WIFI ~50 Eur (maybe 2GB would be enough)
IO Board ~38 Eur
(PCI-E Firewire Card ~15-20 Eur)

If that works one could think about designing a case for 3D printing but one would need to get the card in a good position by using a pci-e riser ribbon cable (9 Eur) and figure out how to mount it properly. Maybe one could simply remove the slot bracket for the pc case and hot glue it somewhere or use the mounting holes for the slot bracket to mount it to a self designed case. The whole case and mounting situation is what I am the most unsure about.
In case one figures out all of the above a sufficient power bank(12V, 2.1A is needed for the board when using the pci slot) would add 60 - 80 Eur, at least that was the first one I discovered. I think my pcie firewire card is pcie x1 so it should be limited to 12V and 0.5 A. PCI-E x4 is limited 2.1A and 12V so that might not work.

IMO the steps would be:
1.) Try to get the card working on the pi
2.) Setup a hot spot on the pi or connect it to a hot spot from mobile phone
3.) a) Setup web server which emits dvgrab commands
     b) Setup video preview in web server
     c) Optional: Simple hardware buttons via GPIO to start/stop recording and a simple led
4.) Design case.

If 1 works, then 2 and 3 would be really straight forward. 4. would be a pain in the ass. At least for me as I am completely unfamiliar with 3D printing and designing for it. And I don't know the cost for such a print (and highly likely failures). There are some models for printing cases for the pi + io module on which one could base a design.

In the end my guess is that the price would be approximately the same like a lot of these recorders (250-300), at least in material cost for developement, but one would have some advantages:
1.) Possible to directly record to usb stick
2.) Preview on mobile via web server
3.) No mechanical hdd like in some of those recorders
4.) Maintainable. One should be able to swap all of the components.

Disadvantages:
Basically the biggest problem would be to get it compact and robust. Figuring out the whole mounting of the card, the power bank and the pi and then mount it to the camera. And I have absolutely no idea about modelling for 3D printing. Even the cooling of the pi might be a problem. The power bank is also comparable heavy and large (20.9 x 19.6 x 5.2 cm; 450 Grams). For reference the fire wire card is 1cm x 6.5 cm x 9.5 (hxwxl) without the slot bracket.

It is very likely that I think way too much ahead, after all nobody has even tried to get this kind of card working on a pi let alone with success. One might need to compile the kernel to have the necessary modules for firewire.  Unfortunately I won't have time for any of this before mid October as well and I am still not sure if this is even a good idea. I just saw the pi 4 compute module has a pcie port and this immediately came to my mind. This post somehow completely lost structure..

Edit: If it does not work on the pi an alternative one could use an Odroid H2+ (that is x86) or something similar with a m2 slot. But the power supply would be a lot more difficult. One would need an extra source of power for the m2 to pcie adapter. And I don't know anything about that stuff. But apparently people even got GPUs working on it (with computer power adapters).

If you go through with this I'd buy one straight away. This would be way better than any of those AV options or even some of the firewire options. If it works that is.

pj chad

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Re: External Recorder Megathread (Bypass Tape Deck for VX)
« Reply #57 on: July 27, 2021, 01:39:32 PM »
I am thinking about "building" my own external recorder. I have an extra firewire card on hand and i think about buying an raspberry pi 4 compute module and io board which has an pcie socket. Unfortunately nobody has tested an IEEE 1394 card on the pi. At least the card works without any problems on linux. The initial costs to test it would be:

Compute Module 4GB with WIFI ~50 Eur (maybe 2GB would be enough)
IO Board ~38 Eur
(PCI-E Firewire Card ~15-20 Eur)

If that works one could think about designing a case for 3D printing but one would need to get the card in a good position by using a pci-e riser ribbon cable (9 Eur) and figure out how to mount it properly. Maybe one could simply remove the slot bracket for the pc case and hot glue it somewhere or use the mounting holes for the slot bracket to mount it to a self designed case. The whole case and mounting situation is what I am the most unsure about.
In case one figures out all of the above a sufficient power bank(12V, 2.1A is needed for the board when using the pci slot) would add 60 - 80 Eur, at least that was the first one I discovered. I think my pcie firewire card is pcie x1 so it should be limited to 12V and 0.5 A. PCI-E x4 is limited 2.1A and 12V so that might not work.

IMO the steps would be:
1.) Try to get the card working on the pi
2.) Setup a hot spot on the pi or connect it to a hot spot from mobile phone
3.) a) Setup web server which emits dvgrab commands
     b) Setup video preview in web server
     c) Optional: Simple hardware buttons via GPIO to start/stop recording and a simple led
4.) Design case.

If 1 works, then 2 and 3 would be really straight forward. 4. would be a pain in the ass. At least for me as I am completely unfamiliar with 3D printing and designing for it. And I don't know the cost for such a print (and highly likely failures). There are some models for printing cases for the pi + io module on which one could base a design.

In the end my guess is that the price would be approximately the same like a lot of these recorders (250-300), at least in material cost for developement, but one would have some advantages:
1.) Possible to directly record to usb stick
2.) Preview on mobile via web server
3.) No mechanical hdd like in some of those recorders
4.) Maintainable. One should be able to swap all of the components.

Disadvantages:
Basically the biggest problem would be to get it compact and robust. Figuring out the whole mounting of the card, the power bank and the pi and then mount it to the camera. And I have absolutely no idea about modelling for 3D printing. Even the cooling of the pi might be a problem. The power bank is also comparable heavy and large (20.9 x 19.6 x 5.2 cm; 450 Grams). For reference the fire wire card is 1cm x 6.5 cm x 9.5 (hxwxl) without the slot bracket.

It is very likely that I think way too much ahead, after all nobody has even tried to get this kind of card working on a pi let alone with success. One might need to compile the kernel to have the necessary modules for firewire.  Unfortunately I won't have time for any of this before mid October as well and I am still not sure if this is even a good idea. I just saw the pi 4 compute module has a pcie port and this immediately came to my mind. This post somehow completely lost structure..

Edit: If it does not work on the pi an alternative one could use an Odroid H2+ (that is x86) or something similar with a m2 slot. But the power supply would be a lot more difficult. One would need an extra source of power for the m2 to pcie adapter. And I don't know anything about that stuff. But apparently people even got GPUs working on it (with computer power adapters).

I think we can all agree that this would be an ideal solution and would likely replace any and all current recorders that are being used. I don't mean to discourage you, but the coding needed to implement all of these into one functional unit is going to be absolutey laborious and painstakingly difficult. If you were able to find source code for one of the existing external recorders, it would be easier to reverse engineer that in an effort to help assist you, but I doubt that any Sony/Datavideo/Focus/Immersion are just going to have code sitting in a public github repository for you to just find with a simple Google search.

The power bank alone (~450g) is heavier than the entire HVR-MRC1 with a battery. Filming in the summer here on the East Coast, you're subject temperatures around 90-100F which would likely cause the Pi to overheat. Imagine taking this solution out to film, and you find that it suddenly isn't working as expected. Are you going to carry around a monitor/HDMI cable/keyboard/mouse with you at all times to troubleshoot?

Again, I don't mean to discourage you, because this would be so awesome to see. But I just wanted to bring to light some of the potential caveats I initially see. Like suckmadeck said, I would immediately buy one if this was available.

ImmanuelCunt

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Re: External Recorder Megathread (Bypass Tape Deck for VX)
« Reply #58 on: July 27, 2021, 02:25:40 PM »
I agree with some points. Like the overheating and the hardware side (getting it compact robust finding a good powerbank/battery) in general as I pointed out before.
In general the goal would be getting a somewhat working version which people could build on there own, not a polished consumer solution.
A somewhat cheap and dirty alternative for people to build it themselves, too get raw dv files without tapes. The main pitfall is, IF the firewire pcie cards work on the pi. If it works, THEN the software side for a diy type of setup is not too hard. I am not talking about a perfectly polished solution with the perfect UX. As I said if the card is detected and the necessary kernel modules are there and loaded, then dvgrab(https://sourceforge.net/p/kino/code/HEAD/tree/trunk/dvgrab/) should be working, which can be installed via packet manager in almost every distro. Therefore the complex part, like implementing the driver and codecs is already there. I captured all my tapes via dvscan, because the windows 10 driver for firewire simply does not work. Maybe one could even get the functionality as a library, they seem to use it for "kino"(which it is actually a part of) from glancing over it.
A simple python web servers is no magic and is setup pretty quickly. Running dvgrab via subprocess isn't as well (with fixed parameters and fixed pathes and  timestamped filenames to start with). Again it is dirty but should be working.  Video streams of previous records should be possible on the limited hardware as well, considering the low resolution of the cameras targeted. Safety is not a concern either. It has it's own local network and is not reachable from the outside.

All of this is purely hypothetical without knowing if these cards work properly on that type of arm computers, that is what I meant with "thinking too much ahead". If it does not the journey is over.
After all this would be just something "neat" to do and more or less just something to tinker.
Edit:
The "goal" in some unknown future would be some kind of resource like:
Buy this board, one of these powerbanks and one of these pci-e firewire cards. Here is the model for the  case, print it or let somebody print it for you. Install this software. And feel free to modify it to your needs. So some sort of diy guide.
Edit 2:
Again take it with a grain of salt: Everything is easily in theory for devs until they actually have to do it.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2021, 03:17:26 PM by ImmanuelCunt »

rezendes

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Re: External Recorder Megathread (Bypass Tape Deck for VX)
« Reply #59 on: August 05, 2021, 05:33:20 PM »
I am thinking about "building" my own external recorder. I have an extra firewire card on hand and i think about buying an raspberry pi 4 compute module and io board which has an pcie socket. Unfortunately nobody has tested an IEEE 1394 card on the pi. At least the card works without any problems on linux. The initial costs to test it would be:

Compute Module 4GB with WIFI ~50 Eur (maybe 2GB would be enough)
IO Board ~38 Eur
(PCI-E Firewire Card ~15-20 Eur)

If that works one could think about designing a case for 3D printing but one would need to get the card in a good position by using a pci-e riser ribbon cable (9 Eur) and figure out how to mount it properly. Maybe one could simply remove the slot bracket for the pc case and hot glue it somewhere or use the mounting holes for the slot bracket to mount it to a self designed case. The whole case and mounting situation is what I am the most unsure about.
In case one figures out all of the above a sufficient power bank(12V, 2.1A is needed for the board when using the pci slot) would add 60 - 80 Eur, at least that was the first one I discovered. I think my pcie firewire card is pcie x1 so it should be limited to 12V and 0.5 A. PCI-E x4 is limited 2.1A and 12V so that might not work.

IMO the steps would be:
1.) Try to get the card working on the pi
2.) Setup a hot spot on the pi or connect it to a hot spot from mobile phone
3.) a) Setup web server which emits dvgrab commands
     b) Setup video preview in web server
     c) Optional: Simple hardware buttons via GPIO to start/stop recording and a simple led
4.) Design case.

If 1 works, then 2 and 3 would be really straight forward. 4. would be a pain in the ass. At least for me as I am completely unfamiliar with 3D printing and designing for it. And I don't know the cost for such a print (and highly likely failures). There are some models for printing cases for the pi + io module on which one could base a design.

In the end my guess is that the price would be approximately the same like a lot of these recorders (250-300), at least in material cost for developement, but one would have some advantages:
1.) Possible to directly record to usb stick
2.) Preview on mobile via web server
3.) No mechanical hdd like in some of those recorders
4.) Maintainable. One should be able to swap all of the components.

Disadvantages:
Basically the biggest problem would be to get it compact and robust. Figuring out the whole mounting of the card, the power bank and the pi and then mount it to the camera. And I have absolutely no idea about modelling for 3D printing. Even the cooling of the pi might be a problem. The power bank is also comparable heavy and large (20.9 x 19.6 x 5.2 cm; 450 Grams). For reference the fire wire card is 1cm x 6.5 cm x 9.5 (hxwxl) without the slot bracket.

It is very likely that I think way too much ahead, after all nobody has even tried to get this kind of card working on a pi let alone with success. One might need to compile the kernel to have the necessary modules for firewire.  Unfortunately I won't have time for any of this before mid October as well and I am still not sure if this is even a good idea. I just saw the pi 4 compute module has a pcie port and this immediately came to my mind. This post somehow completely lost structure..

Edit: If it does not work on the pi an alternative one could use an Odroid H2+ (that is x86) or something similar with a m2 slot. But the power supply would be a lot more difficult. One would need an extra source of power for the m2 to pcie adapter. And I don't know anything about that stuff. But apparently people even got GPUs working on it (with computer power adapters).

I have actually had this exact project idea and purchased the cm4 module and io board along with 2 different pcie firewire cards utilizing different chipsets and had no luck getting drivers to work with arm linux firewire.  I am by no means a linux expert, I'm 100% linux newbie, but I did recompile the kernel a few times including all possible firewire related items I could identify through my research and the best I got was the card was recognized and listed with the linux lspci command but dvgrab could not utilize the card at all.  I then moved on to the other option you mentioned and searched around for affordable x86 based single board computer options like the Odroid.  I can't remember exactly why I wrote that option off, maybe because of price or something the manufacturer responded to me via email about it's m.2 capabilites, who knows, you mentioned people got video cards working so I imagine any card should work.  I ended up settling on the Zimaboard which is $99 and uses passive cooling which would be great for this project, as well as a full size pcie slot which you could attach an extension to then plug the firewire card in and build it all into some nice neat 3d printable box of some sort.  Then all you need is to add a battery and setup linux to boot and start up dvgrab I guess.  A small cheap screen of some sort would be awesome as well assuming you could keep the costs down. Zimaboard was a kickstarter project that I wasn't early enough to get in on but they did just start allowing preorders from their website and mentioned shipping shouldn't be too far off.