@useless_wooden_knowledge vs Evergreen Skateparks/Bad Park Design

[chipped tail]

my town got a park built last year. at the meeting the builder explained that certain obstacles cost more to build than others. Ledges and boxes cost more to make than transition because of all the form work that hast to be done. more materials and more labor to create ledges stairs and boxes. So that mean the plazas and ledge heavy parks everyone wants cost a lot more than a transition heavy pump track style. an earlier poster mentioned the expectations of city leaders to see dazzling results for their million dollars. a few ledges sprinkled about around a 4 stair vs. a mine field of lumps, the tucked shirts from the city are gonna chose the one that looks like it has more for the money.

If the 'street' guys really only want a ledge and flat bar then why do we need a skate park for that? build that shit in your friends front yard. A skate park should have shit that only exists at skateparks. lumps and launches and weird shit to grind. Shit you cant find by driving around town or to the next town over. if you can build it yourself for $200 or have one shipped to your house from Element skateboards then why would we need a professional build firm to make it on the citys dime. you can skate a 5 stair at a local school. you cant carve into a long 5050 or launch a flyout at the Jr. high school. at my local theres tons of kids skating a 4 stair and flat ground and dodging the bowls. i want them to fuck off. Ledges at parks are sick but they should be cool ones off steps or across pyramids and more than just a fun box on the ground.

Anyway how lame is it call yourself a street skater but only skate ledges at a skatepark. I blame the Xgames for this. they called the contest area a 'street course' and now we have these park kids saying they skate street. but then again now the kids say i skate vert while im on the mini ramp and it makes me feel badass so...yes i wear a mesh hat... a bright fucking orange one.

[backinaction]

I made quite a few comments on the IG post, but the #1 point is : The flow park needs to be skated as one big obstacle and if more than one person is skating at a time there are collisions. These parks are fine when it is you and 3-4 other skaters.  Once it's more than that, go home.  It sucks when 10,000 sq feet of park is shut down when there are 10 people at the session - nevermind when 15 scooter kids show up. That size park should be able to have that many people with wheels on the ground moving at a time, not everyone just waiting for one person to finish their run.


This is my local : https://www.evergreenskateparks.com/rockridge-skatepark-bend-oregon

Watch the video. Yeah - it’s a fun line, but you can’t take that line if other people are skating.  And the park isn’t set up to NOT skate that way. One entire side of the park is just speed bumps to set you up for the launch into the next section. Park needs twice as much coping as it has.

[bigdave]

Anyway how lame is it call yourself a street skater but only skate ledges at a skatepark. I blame the Xgames for this. they called the contest area a 'street course' and now we have these park kids saying they skate street.

This first part is a key point in all this. The amount of "street skaters" youtubing that never leave the park is...baffling.

Also, if these parks were plazas, and offered no flow, no vert, no pool coping, just generally nothing resembling tranny skating (save for a quarter pipe or two), would the same people be complaining?

Nope. This is mostly about people's personal preferences than anything else.

[sharkjumper]

my town got a park built last year. at the meeting the builder explained that certain obstacles cost more to build than others. Ledges and boxes cost more to make than transition because of all the form work that hast to be done. more materials and more labor to create ledges stairs and boxes. So that mean the plazas and ledge heavy parks everyone wants cost a lot more than a transition heavy pump track style. an earlier poster mentioned the expectations of city leaders to see dazzling results for their million dollars. a few ledges sprinkled about around a 4 stair vs. a mine field of lumps, the tucked shirts from the city are gonna chose the one that looks like it has more for the money.

If the 'street' guys really only want a ledge and flat bar then why do we need a skate park for that? build that shit in your friends front yard. A skate park should have shit that only exists at skateparks. lumps and launches and weird shit to grind. Shit you cant find by driving around town or to the next town over. if you can build it yourself for $200 or have one shipped to your house from Element skateboards then why would we need a professional build firm to make it on the citys dime. you can skate a 5 stair at a local school. you cant carve into a long 5050 or launch a flyout at the Jr. high school. at my local theres tons of kids skating a 4 stair and flat ground and dodging the bowls. i want them to fuck off. Ledges at parks are sick but they should be cool ones off steps or across pyramids and more than just a fun box on the ground.

Anyway how lame is it call yourself a street skater but only skate ledges at a skatepark. I blame the Xgames for this. they called the contest area a 'street course' and now we have these park kids saying they skate street. but then again now the kids say i skate vert while im on the mini ramp and it makes me feel badass so...yes i wear a mesh hat... a bright fucking orange one.

First off, I'm calling bullshit on that builder.  Ledges, stairs, etc. don't cost more to build than transition.  That sounds like an excuse to not build those obstacles.

Secondly, I see this argument all the time that parks shouldn't have street obstacles because you can find those and skate them in the streets.  I'll agree that skating a ledge in a skatepark isn't really street skating.  But, this argument ignores the needs of where a park is built.  Sure, adhering to the philosophy of a park should only have things you can't find in the streets works well in a larger urban area.  Street spots exist there.  Part of the point of the UWK post, and what I'm always arguing, is that evergreen builds parks in a lot of small towns.  These towns don't have street spots.  Hays, Montana has a flowy evergreen park.  I'd guess there isn't a parking lot in that town that is smooth enough to skate flatground on.  That park should have a few street obstacles because they don't exist naturally there.  Evergreen is blatantly ignoring the needs of skaters in a town like that and many others where they build.

[Sold Out]

my town got a park built last year. at the meeting the builder explained that certain obstacles cost more to build than others. Ledges and boxes cost more to make than transition because of all the form work that hast to be done. more materials and more labor to create ledges stairs and boxes. So that mean the plazas and ledge heavy parks everyone wants cost a lot more than a transition heavy pump track style. an earlier poster mentioned the expectations of city leaders to see dazzling results for their million dollars. a few ledges sprinkled about around a 4 stair vs. a mine field of lumps, the tucked shirts from the city are gonna chose the one that looks like it has more for the money.

If the 'street' guys really only want a ledge and flat bar then why do we need a skate park for that? build that shit in your friends front yard. A skate park should have shit that only exists at skateparks. lumps and launches and weird shit to grind. Shit you cant find by driving around town or to the next town over. if you can build it yourself for $200 or have one shipped to your house from Element skateboards then why would we need a professional build firm to make it on the citys dime. you can skate a 5 stair at a local school. you cant carve into a long 5050 or launch a flyout at the Jr. high school. at my local theres tons of kids skating a 4 stair and flat ground and dodging the bowls. i want them to fuck off. Ledges at parks are sick but they should be cool ones off steps or across pyramids and more than just a fun box on the ground.

Anyway how lame is it call yourself a street skater but only skate ledges at a skatepark. I blame the Xgames for this. they called the contest area a 'street course' and now we have these park kids saying they skate street. but then again now the kids say i skate vert while im on the mini ramp and it makes me feel badass so...yes i wear a mesh hat... a bright fucking orange one.

There's no way it costs more to make a ledge than transition haha

[sharkjumper]

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Anyway how lame is it call yourself a street skater but only skate ledges at a skatepark. I blame the Xgames for this. they called the contest area a 'street course' and now we have these park kids saying they skate street.

[close]

This first part is a key point in all this. The amount of "street skaters" youtubing that never leave the park is...baffling.

Also, if these parks were plazas, and offered no flow, no vert, no pool coping, just generally nothing resembling tranny skating (save for a quarter pipe or two), would the same people be complaining?

Nope. This is mostly about people's personal preferences than anything else.

No park is going to please everyone who uses it.  Maybe if you could build it big enough it could include all the obstacles.
So yeah, there is a lot of "I prefer to skate this, why isn't it in a skatepark."  There's validity behind it though.  If evergreen (or dreamland, grindline, whoever) is hired to build a park for the community, it should include things to skate that the community wants.  Reference the post a few above this about the park in Bend, Oregon.  It has been brought up over and over by skaters there that that wasn't the kind of park the community asked to get built.

[bigdave]

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Anyway how lame is it call yourself a street skater but only skate ledges at a skatepark. I blame the Xgames for this. they called the contest area a 'street course' and now we have these park kids saying they skate street.

[close]

This first part is a key point in all this. The amount of "street skaters" youtubing that never leave the park is...baffling.

Also, if these parks were plazas, and offered no flow, no vert, no pool coping, just generally nothing resembling tranny skating (save for a quarter pipe or two), would the same people be complaining?

Nope. This is mostly about people's personal preferences than anything else.

[close]

No park is going to please everyone who uses it.  Maybe if you could build it big enough it could include all the obstacles.
So yeah, there is a lot of "I prefer to skate this, why isn't it in a skatepark."  There's validity behind it though.  If evergreen (or dreamland, grindline, whoever) is hired to build a park for the community, it should include things to skate that the community wants.  Reference the post a few above this about the park in Bend, Oregon.  It has been brought up over and over by skaters there that that wasn't the kind of park the community asked to get built.

What you're talking about is the process, which I agree is flawed unyielding hell. I work in public advocacy for a living. This is a story as old as time and is primarily rooted in, well, capitalism.

What I am saying is the people speaking the loudest about these parks (on IG, and specifically the OP) don't live anywhere near these towns, wont likely visit these towns, and have nothing to offer except some visceral reactionary bullshit. They have no real, tangible stake in any of it and whatever this is, it's hardly purposeful or productive.

If someone wants to start building an advocacy network for skateboarders to link together and build strategies to get the kinds of parks they want, I am all fucking here for it. I've been running Non-Profits for a living for a long time and teach on it at two universities. I'd be stoked to contribute to something like that.

[Painted Baby]

The owner of evergreen has burned so many people in the industry. He’s had entire crews up and quit on him multiple times over the repetitive designs and his horrible attitude. One of his guys recently lost a few fingers in the swing tube of the concrete pump because he told him to “stick his arm in there and clean it out” the companies whole purpose is to stroke this dudes ego while he literally gets rich ripping off one town after another. Sorry billy but this just ain’t it.

Half of this sounds like the plot to The Music Man aka the monorail episode.

[Nosferatu]

There should probably be a minimum obstacle standard that all parks must meet. Would need to be adjusted based on project budget. It may limit the “creativity” of the design but that creativity is usually just some guy with his head up his ass.

[IusedToSkateMore]

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Even in a suburb or a place where the town doesn't want people skating in public, kids learn to make it work.

[close]

This sort of stuck out for me. One thing that's pretty much a constant in interviews with pros or ams who came from small towns or the burbs is that they had nowhere to skate and that it sucked. They don't even try to romanticize that kind of situation.

The burbs and small towns suck, regardless of skateability but for the average kid coming up, its healthy to learn to adapt and make shit happen in an unsupervised situation. While a park is sort of liminal space, its nonetheless contained. Thats never been my jam. I'm not trying to romanticize the situation but am calling it what it is, and that's making something into a spot regardless of what its intended purpose is. With that most recent Westgate NB clip, people were commenting to the effect of, "how does he see that as a spot?" and after having conversations with other people who watched the clip and who also grew up skating in the same area, we felt that at least in part, it comes from having fuck all to skate most of the time.

I don't really know. none of us do. I don't particularly care for skateparks and would rather deal with skating elsewhere most of the time.

[boi-cuzudo]

I assume everyone who's saying "parks don't need ledges or rails, go street skating if you wanna skate a that stuff!" would be just as comfortable hearing "parks don't need tons of ramps, go bail out a pool if you want to skate transition," correct?

Omy fucking god what an Ignatius thing to say lol

[sharkjumper]

What you're talking about is the process, which I agree is flawed unyielding hell. I work in public advocacy for a living. This is a story as old as time and is primarily rooted in, well, capitalism.

What I am saying is the people speaking the loudest about these parks (on IG, and specifically the OP) don't live anywhere near these towns, wont likely visit these towns, and have nothing to offer except some visceral reactionary bullshit. They have no real, tangible stake in any of it and whatever this is, it's hardly purposeful or productive.

If someone wants to start building an advocacy network for skateboarders to link together and build strategies to get the kinds of parks they want, I am all fucking here for it. I've been running Non-Profits for a living for a long time and teach on it at two universities. I'd be stoked to contribute to something like that.

Lots of fair points there.  The process is fucked.  It can be better or worse depending on where someone lives.

And the point about armchair critics.  There is a lot of that on here and tons on that IG post.  For me, I have a personal connection to this.  I've been to many evergreen parks.  They build parks in Montana near where I grew up, and in places where skaters I know well will be the end users of the parks.  The folks at evergreen hold deeply the attitude that street skating is for the streets.  I've talked to them about this numerous times.  They are resistant to including street obstacles, even when that would benefit the skating experience for the skaters in those towns.  So the original IG post brings up a good point - it seems like Evergreen ignores what the community needs or is asking for.  They are not the only park builder that does this.  Dreamland built the park in my hometown and it feels like they built it for a pit stop for the anithero team, not the locals.

So the advocacy network is a great idea.  How is an inexperienced 13 year old skater in a small town supposed articulate what they want out of their new skatepark?  Or what they'll need from their skatepark in 2 years when they get better?  And how do they get a stubborn park builder to even listen to them?

[CossRooper]

I don't even know how there is a debate here. if you build a park and it doesn't have a single straight ledge and a one (1) flatbar, you absolutely fucked up, misallocated the money, and kids in a 20 mile radius are going to be bummed whether they realize it yet or not.

for you tranny dogs commenting in this thread, for the record, i would also say the same if it were the opposite and there was literally no transition. you have to have variety.

but to have these parks with literally only these crazy 4 foot flow bowls is a massive waste and completely out of touch with the culture. especially if its a small town. i agree that in portland or california or whatever you can afford to have the variety but almost everywhere else in smalltown USA those kids cannot afford to have these tranny only parks as their only local.

I don't particularly care for skateparks and would rather deal with skating elsewhere most of the time.

I feel like you may be saying "skateparks are bad and I'd rather do something organic", which is okay and i generally agree. But what we're saying in this thread is "if you're going to spend $300,000-$500,000 of local taxpayer money to build something, don't build a steaming pile of shit that looks cool in their portfolio but doesn't meet the needs of modern skateboarding"

edit: i did just have a browse on evergreen's site, and to be fair to them, most parks do have a flatbar and ledge somewhere in the park.

[boi-cuzudo]

I'm browsing the Evergreen website, quoting from the Company's vision:

..Our designs incorporate transition and street inspired sculptural obstacles...


...Another important aspect of our design is an appreciation for aesthetics as our skateparks are an entirely turnkey product. Although the most importance lies in skateable functionality, we also want our parks to be pleasing to the eye and incorporate the natural elements and surroundings.

Ok. So you are not happy Evergreen isn't building what you want? Start your company, call it Stairs&Ledges...hire a crew of concrete people and make it happen. Or maybe keep crying on IG.

[bigdave]

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What you're talking about is the process, which I agree is flawed unyielding hell. I work in public advocacy for a living. This is a story as old as time and is primarily rooted in, well, capitalism.

What I am saying is the people speaking the loudest about these parks (on IG, and specifically the OP) don't live anywhere near these towns, wont likely visit these towns, and have nothing to offer except some visceral reactionary bullshit. They have no real, tangible stake in any of it and whatever this is, it's hardly purposeful or productive.

If someone wants to start building an advocacy network for skateboarders to link together and build strategies to get the kinds of parks they want, I am all fucking here for it. I've been running Non-Profits for a living for a long time and teach on it at two universities. I'd be stoked to contribute to something like that.

[close]

Lots of fair points there.  The process is fucked.  It can be better or worse depending on where someone lives.

And the point about armchair critics.  There is a lot of that on here and tons on that IG post.  For me, I have a personal connection to this.  I've been to many evergreen parks.  They build parks in Montana near where I grew up, and in places where skaters I know well will be the end users of the parks.  The folks at evergreen hold deeply the attitude that street skating is for the streets.  I've talked to them about this numerous times.  They are resistant to including street obstacles, even when that would benefit the skating experience for the skaters in those towns.  So the original IG post brings up a good point - it seems like Evergreen ignores what the community needs or is asking for.  They are not the only park builder that does this.  Dreamland built the park in my hometown and it feels like they built it for a pit stop for the anithero team, not the locals.

So the advocacy network is a great idea.  How is an inexperienced 13 year old skater in a small town supposed articulate what they want out of their new skatepark?  Or what they'll need from their skatepark in 2 years when they get better?  And how do they get a stubborn park builder to even listen to them?

I appreciate that you have real-life experience with this and are expressing that. I agree, this inability to have diverse parks, (I mean make a fucking adjacent 5 obstacle plaza, am I right) is dumb and bad.

the singular kid wont have a voice, but an advocacy group would be charged with two things; organizing on the ground level and also education for the decision makers.

An organizing/advocacy group could have tool kits and official packages with shiny graphics and solid justification for ensuring that council people (and honestly, its mostly city staff. They present the projects) have the information they need to make solid, inclusionary choices. If you did this right, you would change and influence the process that ALLOWS voices to be heard - not just asking ragtag kids to show up at meetings.

How do we get something like this going? (I have some ideas on this)

[boi-cuzudo]

I don't even know how there is a debate here. if you build a park and it doesn't have a single straight ledge and a one (1) flatbar, you absolutely fucked up, misallocated the money, and kids in a 20 mile radius are going to be bummed whether they realize it yet or not.

for you tranny dogs commenting in this thread, for the record, i would also say the same if it were the opposite and there was literally no transition. you have to have variety.

but to have these parks with literally only these crazy 4 foot flow bowls is a massive waste and completely out of touch with the culture. especially if its a small town. i agree that in portland or california or whatever you can afford to have the variety but almost everywhere else in smalltown USA those kids cannot afford to have these tranny only parks as their only local.

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I don't particularly care for skateparks and would rather deal with skating elsewhere most of the time.

[close]

I feel like you may be saying "skateparks are bad and I'd rather do something organic", which is okay and i generally agree. But what we're saying in this thread is "if you're going to spend $300,000-$500,000 of local taxpayer money to build something, don't build a steaming pile of shit that looks cool in their portfolio but doesn't meet the needs of modern skateboarding"

edit: i did just have a browse on evergreen's site, and to be fair to them, most parks do have a flatbar and ledge somewhere in the park.

As a matter of facts I actually see people bringing their own homemade handrails, kickers and grind boxes to the moonscape Evergreen parks, it's more common than yall think lol

[Willie]

Now people know how I felt when our city wasted $3million on a fucking skate plaza.

[Painted Baby]

I gotta say the phrase turnkey in that Evergreen statement really stuck out to me. On the one hand, I can see why local city councils and the like that don't have skaters serving on them would find that appealing but on the other it seems to be the root of this problem we're talking about. If you're using public money, then you have to be open to community input.

Where's the Skatepark Project aka Tony Hawk Foundation in all of this? Are they just doing the work at the fundraising level or is there a part that's also helping get what these communities need built? Should that be part of their work going forward?

[boi-cuzudo]

Now people know how I felt when our city wasted $3million on a fucking skate plaza.

Care to show us your local plaza?

[dilbert1]

A skate park should have shit that only exists at skateparks. [...] Shit you cant find by driving around town or to the next town over.

In my case (and I imagine in many, many others) that's a decent ledge spot...

Ledges at parks are sick but they should be cool ones off steps or across pyramids and more than just a fun box on the ground.

But a box on the ground/basic ledge is what you practice on, to then take those tricks to bigger more advanced obstacles/the streets. You know, practicing... at a skatepark... kind of what they're for. Not sure why it's so weird that the "street" section of the park should somewhat emulate and prepare you for... street spots.

I assume everyone who's saying "parks don't need ledges or rails, go street skating if you wanna skate a that stuff!" would be just as comfortable hearing "parks don't need tons of ramps, go bail out a pool if you want to skate transition," correct?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[boi-cuzudo]

If anything, I wish more skateable plazas were built where people's from all types can congregate together, something not limited strictly to the act of skateboarding but a place with a focus on a fun beautiful hang out spot for everyone.

But I guess Americans are too anti social...it wont hpapen here.

[Francis Xavier]

I was just joking around with the Jeff Ament comment but check out the list

https://pearljam.com/news/jeff-aments-skatepark-projects

the builder is Evergreen Skatepark for all of them since 2014. this seem like a company formed to get Jeff Aments money. there must be some connection

I used to work in DoD/Dept Energy contracting and this is very common. i.e. scout out where the money is flowing and start a contracting firm to get that money.

So THAT’S  why these parks have no even flow.

Always joked with friends about a park that was filled with only famous spots ala THPS.  Lets go skate the El Toro section, the LOVE area is crowded"

[Alan]

So THAT’S  why these parks have no even flow.

[Willie]

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Now people know how I felt when our city wasted $3million on a fucking skate plaza.

[close]

Care to show us your local plaza?

Google “Paines Skatepark”.

I don’t even hate Paines as much as some people but it was still a stupid amount of money with a lot less to show for than any other big ticket skatepark. The transition elements weren’t even supposed to be there because a bunch of Love Park guys thought “it would look bad when filming”. To the extent those guys ever skate Paines it’s usually only for the old Love Park benches which could have been dropped on a slab anywhere.

We ended up with a poorly executed mishmash that architects were high fiveing themselves over that probably cost more per square foot than any other skatepark ever. For that price we could have gotten an Arvada, Linda Vista, D-Park, etc. There are also plenty of smaller footprint plaza parks like SOMA or LES that offer more to skate.


At any rate, builders should thoughtfully try to include as many styles as feasible but it seems inevitable that feelings will get hurt either way.

[dilbert1]

If anything, I wish more skateable plazas were built where people's from all types can congregate together, something not limited strictly to the act of skateboarding but a place with a focus on a fun beautiful hang out spot for everyone.

But I guess Americans are too anti social...it wont hpapen here.

Honestly convinced the lack of massive open urban 'squares' and large pedestrian gathering areas blocked from traffic is a powerfully atomizing and repressive social function, which the US intentionally wields against its citizens to restrict the frequency and intensity of all non-commercial social activity. To the point where most people here have no sentiment for free public space, unless it's being sold back to them as the quaint subject matter of bar room folk singers.

[manysnakes]

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Anyway how lame is it call yourself a street skater but only skate ledges at a skatepark. I blame the Xgames for this. they called the contest area a 'street course' and now we have these park kids saying they skate street.

[close]

Nope. This is mostly about people's personal preferences than anything else.

Exactly. The most confusing part is when people insist that this is going to turn people off from skating, which betrays that they must have a very limited view of skateboarding in the first place. Like probably everyone here over ~35, I didn't grow up with anything resembling a skatepark, and I didn't quit because I had no buttery smooth ledges on which to practice my noseslides. I made due with what I had, I travelled to spots when and where I could, my friends and their dads built boxes and ramps, and I practiced flatground tricks on dry, smooth patches of concrete all day long.

If someone who is hyped on skating suddenly decides to become a scooter kid because the local park is "too flowy" or something, I would suggest that this person probably wasn't very interested in being a skater in the first place. I can say with absolute certainty that, if I had access to a park like this when I was coming up, I wouldn't have been bitching and moaning about the lack of stairs to ollie - I would have been here daily, learning to do big frontside grinds and how to float ollies over the bumps

[manysnakes]

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The owner of evergreen has burned so many people in the industry. He’s had entire crews up and quit on him multiple times over the repetitive designs and his horrible attitude. One of his guys recently lost a few fingers in the swing tube of the concrete pump because he told him to “stick his arm in there and clean it out” the companies whole purpose is to stroke this dudes ego while he literally gets rich ripping off one town after another. Sorry billy but this just ain’t it.

[close]

Half of this sounds like the plot to The Music Man aka the monorail episode.

I've sold skateparks to Brockway, Ogdenville, and North Haverbrook, and, by gum, it put *them* on the map!

[bigdave]

I can say with absolute certainty that, if I had access to a park like this when I was coming up, I wouldn't have been bitching and moaning about the lack of stairs to ollie - I would be here daily, learning to do big frontside grinds and how to float ollies over the bumps

I think the adaptability piece is kind of an important point. Most kids will adapt to what's around them. It's what makes kids so great. It isnt to say they shouldnt have street stuff attached/adjacent to each of these parks - I definitely think they should - but speaking as someone learning to skate transition in their 40s because we didnt have it anywhere when I was a kid and I got discouraged trying it in my mid 20s when (very shitty, but transition-having) parks were blowing up....yeah, wouldnt have minded some of this stuff in my hood. I also live in a place where streets spots are everywhere.

[sketchyrider]

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If anything, I wish more skateable plazas were built where people's from all types can congregate together, something not limited strictly to the act of skateboarding but a place with a focus on a fun beautiful hang out spot for everyone.

But I guess Americans are too anti social...it wont hpapen here.

[close]

Honestly convinced the lack of massive open urban 'squares' and large pedestrian gathering areas blocked from traffic is a powerfully atomizing and repressive social function, which the US intentionally wields against its citizens to restrict the frequency and intensity of all non-commercial social activity. To the point where most people here have no sentiment for free public space, unless it's being sold back to them as the quaint subject matter of bar room folk singers.

excellent points, both of ya. buy something, or get lost...

[manysnakes]

This reminds me of a great thread I read here a *long* time ago, which I can no longer find, despite multiple searches. A poster here is some kind of expert on urban planning and design, and went into detail about why Love Park was changed from a dynamic and interesting plaza that allowed people to congregate for multiple purposes into a boring, pancake flat eyesore. The thrust being that yes, the design is intentional, because cities and the people who police them now see large, unorganized gatherings as a thing that should be interrupted and arrested where possible, and a flat plaza with few openings serves much better for their current intended use, which is "official" events like charity runs and festivals, where someone leases out the park and charges admission. As an added benefit, the authorities can now see everything going on in the park, so no one can get away with something nefarious like drinking in public.

I did a shitty job explaining it, but if someone can dig up that thread, I would appreciate it and I think it would be relevant to the conversation.