The Thunder Thread

[Mbrimson88]

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Re Ace pivot cups:

Do they appear tighter, or are the sidewalls thicker on the ones you have?

[close]

I had to bang them in with a skate tool, and the sidewalls are thick, so the hangar nub fits in without any side to side play.

The top of the cups hang out by about 1/2mm (i.e. not flush). Maybe they’re taller than Thunder? Maybe they’re the same and will settle in flush after a few sessions?

Will report back if there any weird geometry change. I have the kingpin nut tightened to where it was before, so if the trucks feel tighter then that means the hangar nub is sitting higher because of the Pivot cup not fitting the same as stock Thunder’s.

Thanks for the info.

I don't usually get much of anything from Ace (besides used / trade in product), compared to other distributors / brands, so I am curious about those pivot cups as I have heard people say they are good when everything else seems to be too loose in the fit of them.

At least getting the hanger nub to sit in nice and tight is the main thing.  I have some other pivot cups that sit up above the baseplate form and it hasn't made any difference to how the trucks feel - don't know what brand they are as they came from someone second hand, but I have left them in and they work fine.

[rawbertson.]

this is just going nowhere obviously, people are just insulting me now insisting i dont own a tape measure. there is no flaw , if the trucks are on the board how can it possibly be wrong? the trucks are clearly more than 1/4" pushed in than the indy's i have on. i compared both sides it looks identical. i dont really care what the number is to be honest - my point is they are more pushed in than ace classics if claims are true that ace classics are pushed in exactly 1/4" in from Indy Standard - making these the most pushed in trucks available (unless maybe Venture V8 pushed in? I have no clue what those measure at).

Zack Dowdy may be fried, I even said the same thing at first, but he had all the trucks on the exact same board and from having my boards side by side it seems very clear to me. I am not understanding how there could be any flaw in that. the truck is in the screws, it aint going anywhere dude.  When I got my trucks I noticed the same thing he did. I will prove it. I will go to the skate shop this week confirm up against Ace Classics.

The only other possible thing here I have mentioend is I am using Indy Stage 10 to compare and its possible those have a difvfferent WB to stage 11. so that could make a huge difference - that is the main thing i am going off of as a reference point.

[SwitchBenihana]

That's like saying if you want to know how much height a pair of shoes gives someone you'd compare them to another person who you've measured prior and is wearing a different pair of shoes. Just measure them both with and without shoes. If we are wrong post your pics.

The only way to be certain is the way I described. Trucks lean so you can only get an accurate measurement by averaging the lean of both sides. I don't know why this is so hard to accept. I'm not trying to insult you it's just really weird to me that someone so numbers oriented would avoid just measuring the right way once and for all.

[Texas_Tone]

I actually enjoyed his review better than any others I’ve seen



Enjoying this new canon

[JM]

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Re Ace pivot cups:

Do they appear tighter, or are the sidewalls thicker on the ones you have?

[close]

I had to bang them in with a skate tool, and the sidewalls are thick, so the hangar nub fits in without any side to side play.

The top of the cups hang out by about 1/2mm (i.e. not flush). Maybe they’re taller than Thunder? Maybe they’re the same and will settle in flush after a few sessions?

Will report back if there any weird geometry change. I have the kingpin nut tightened to where it was before, so if the trucks feel tighter then that means the hangar nub is sitting higher because of the Pivot cup not fitting the same as stock Thunder’s.

[close]

Thanks for the info.

I don't usually get much of anything from Ace (besides used / trade in product), compared to other distributors / brands, so I am curious about those pivot cups as I have heard people say they are good when everything else seems to be too loose in the fit of them.

At least getting the hanger nub to sit in nice and tight is the main thing.  I have some other pivot cups that sit up above the baseplate form and it hasn't made any difference to how the trucks feel - don't know what brand they are as they came from someone second hand, but I have left them in and they work fine.

$7 US Ace Bushings work great in Thunders. They turn the exact same as stock bushings, and didn’t feel any tighter or looser than stock bushings.

I’m happy.



I gotta say the blue Indy bushings that I filed down make the Thunders turn well. Really fun. Even though the bottom bushing is a mm less than thunder stock (13mm vs. 14mm) when I compared the two before putting in, they were same height. Both bushings had some wear on them of over a year of skating.



My next experiment is trying the inverted Ace bushings. Those are coming in a week or so. From all my research, the inverted is 9mm on top (vs. the 9.5mm of stock Thunder). The washers look like they have a recessed groove in them, too, so it will be interesting to see how they end up on the thunders.

Maybe someone here has already tried inverted Ace on Thunders, which I think maybe I saw someone photos, but it’s all a blur now.

Bushing thread: https://www.slapmagazine.com/index.php?topic=112631.msg3376345#msg3376345

[SwitchBenihana]

Expand Quote

Expand Quote

Expand Quote

Re Ace pivot cups:

Do they appear tighter, or are the sidewalls thicker on the ones you have?

[close]

I had to bang them in with a skate tool, and the sidewalls are thick, so the hangar nub fits in without any side to side play.

The top of the cups hang out by about 1/2mm (i.e. not flush). Maybe they’re taller than Thunder? Maybe they’re the same and will settle in flush after a few sessions?

Will report back if there any weird geometry change. I have the kingpin nut tightened to where it was before, so if the trucks feel tighter then that means the hangar nub is sitting higher because of the Pivot cup not fitting the same as stock Thunder’s.

[close]

Thanks for the info.

I don't usually get much of anything from Ace (besides used / trade in product), compared to other distributors / brands, so I am curious about those pivot cups as I have heard people say they are good when everything else seems to be too loose in the fit of them.

At least getting the hanger nub to sit in nice and tight is the main thing.  I have some other pivot cups that sit up above the baseplate form and it hasn't made any difference to how the trucks feel - don't know what brand they are as they came from someone second hand, but I have left them in and they work fine.

[close]

$7 US Ace Bushings work great in Thunders. They turn the exact same as stock bushings, and didn’t feel any tighter or looser than stock bushings.

I’m happy.



I gotta say the blue Indy bushings that I filed down make the Thunders turn well. Really fun. Even though the bottom bushing is a mm less than thunder stock (13mm vs. 14mm) when I compared the two before putting in, they were same height. Both bushings had some wear on them of over a year of skating.



My next experiment is trying the inverted Ace bushings. Those are coming in a week or so. From all my research, the inverted is 9mm on top (vs. the 9.5mm of stock Thunder). The washers look like they have a recessed groove in them, too, so it will be interesting to see how they end up on the thunders.

Maybe someone here has already tried inverted Ace on Thunders, which I think maybe I saw someone photos, but it’s all a blur now.

Bushing thread: https://www.slapmagazine.com/index.php?topic=112631.msg3376345#msg3376345

Ace trucks and bushings are made in China I thought?

I can see why DLX went tapered but they honestly shoulda just used a Venture bottom bushing. I don't think it would lose much turn but probably be more stable stock for a lot of people that are either switching to a barrel anyways or found them too loose and gave up.

[tzhangdox]

There's also other factors that can affect the measurement such as the bottom bushing being worn and compressed which will alter the geometry slightly, worn trucks could also have slightly bent axles which might also affect the measurement.

The most accurate way to measure is with ideally new trucks and new stock bushings, nut flush, center of axle to center of axle on both sides and divide by 2. Deviating from this may result in inaccuracies. Zack Dowdy definitely did not do this, we see he only measured one side. Not sure why this is controversial.

[JM]

@SwitchBenihana

$7US to mark that it's US dollar and not the AUS dollar.  (Mostly for Dr. Brimson's sake since he's down under)

[SwitchBenihana]

Ohhhh my bad, I wasn't aware of their location. Makes cents. See what I did there?

[Bumba]

Quick question about the TII. I'm used to Indy's but don't get on with the barrel bushings. I feel like the turn is restricted at the deep end of the turn. I'm guessing it's the same feeling with these but can anyone confirm or deny it?

[Mbrimson88]

Quick question about the TII. I'm used to Indy's but don't get on with the barrel bushings. I feel like the turn is restricted at the deep end of the turn. I'm guessing it's the same feeling with these but can anyone confirm or deny it?

I just posted this in the "Questions" thread, but it can also be transferred here, re cylinder and conical bushings.

* Note I haven't even seen the T-II in person so don't know how they skate at all, but from everything I have seen of them, it is more the geometry that allows more turn than anything else, but the height and shape of bushings can also have a big impact on how a truck will perform too, eg taller bottom bushing means way more turn, lower bottom bushing means the turn is squashed and minimised from what it could be.

My post:


...with what could be described as the bushing feel guide, more than anything.


Cylinder 90 orange, then Conical 92 blue (feel like 91), then Cylinder 92 blue, then Conical 94 black (feel like 93), then Cylinder 94 black.

It is not an exact science, as some people have even said that all conical bushings feel a bit more mushy than the cylinder even in the lower duro, but the conical bushings do compress down a bit more over time, as mine always do, compared to cylinders which only compress a little.

For this reason I really do like the conical bushings in slightly firmer durometers as they feel stable but when pushed they can still turn way more than the cylinder equivalents.  On the flip side, having cylinders means that they will compress to a point and then push back, so although they might feel a little mushy on top, they won't turn quite as much as the conical bushings.

[rawbertson.]

There's also other factors that can affect the measurement such as the bottom bushing being worn and compressed which will alter the geometry slightly, worn trucks could also have slightly bent axles which might also affect the measurement.

That makes sense the trucks would get more pushed out over time just due to straight up gravity/weight pushing on them. These Indy’s are actually probably really pushed out now cause they are so old. I think a super heavy dude rode them before I did too../

I will have to check at the shop but then that would make sense they are on par with ace classic push out.

Is Indy stage 4 also meant to be same as ace classic? I never confirmed that

[moykky]

They would be pushed IN not out, right?

[Mbrimson88]

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There's also other factors that can affect the measurement such as the bottom bushing being worn and compressed which will alter the geometry slightly, worn trucks could also have slightly bent axles which might also affect the measurement.

[close]

That makes sense the trucks would get more pushed out over time just due to straight up gravity/weight pushing on them. These Indy’s are actually probably really pushed out now cause they are so old. I think a super heavy dude rode them before I did too../

I will have to check at the shop but then that would make sense they are on par with ace classic push out.

Is Indy stage 4 also meant to be same as ace classic? I never confirmed that

They would be pushed IN not out, right?

Yes when the bushings compress, they will squash down making the axles tilt inwards, so they would be ever so slightly closer together.

As to how much, it is really hard to say, as a few boards I have been on I can feel it more than I can see it when I measure, even when I cut the top bushings and add that under the hanger with the bottom bushing, the trucks still measure about the same, but I can really feel the extra turn on them.


Re Thunder T-II sit in roughly the same as Ace, as do the Indy Stage 4 trucks too, but maybe not quite as much, as they are still a similar Indy geometry, but also with the taller bushings to help with more turn, just like Ace.

I know a single mm in skateboarding can make a huge difference in the feel of a product, but even putting deck bolts through trucks and sit them on the edge of a counter, it is still very hard to get an exact / accurate measurement as people have said, because the hangers are often ever so slightly tilted one way or another, as I have experimented with before.

It is fun though, so sit some trucks on a bench top, kingpins facing the edge, put two deck bolts through the kingpin side of the baseplate and hang them over the edge, then line them all up and move then around to see which ones sit further in or further out.

I am guessing this is what you guys have been doing at the shop too?  Can do it on almost any straight edge to check rough distances, but I like to have pairs (or more) of the same trucks sitting side by side too, just to get things as straight as I can, which might be overkill, but at least it works for me.


* As I still haven't seen any T-II in person, I can't comment on the wheelbase position, but with those few, is it Ace, T-II, Indy Stage 4 then all the rest?

[rawbertson.]

Ok so the official verdict is in. T2 is the +2.75” same push out as ace classic.

Also, this is not as scientific, but my friend sent me a video of venture V8 and t2 lined up on a 14.25” wb on each board and they lined up perfectly. So was V8 a prototype for T2 in a sense?

[tzhangdox]

Guy with the truck measurements database as his sig doing everything in his power to not use a tape measure and average out both sides

So was V8 a prototype for T2 in a sense?

no

[rawbertson.]

Since Ishod (thunder rider) was riding the v8 early and basically the only difference in the truck is the bottom barrel bushing (which they changed the thunder bushing to be MORE like) and .5mm in height and maybe 10g in weight. Whether it was a “test” or not… it’s almost the same damn thing lol.

[Rick Trapasso]

Since Ishod (thunder rider) was riding the v8 early and basically the only difference in the truck is the bottom barrel bushing (which they changed the thunder bushing to be MORE like) and .5mm in height and maybe 10g in weight. Whether it was a “test” or not… it’s almost the same damn thing lol.

I assume the turning geometry for the T2 vs the V8 is quite different given how the turn is described for each truck.

The V8 has regular venture geometry, which is known to greatly favor stability over turn.

The T2 was specifically designed to prioritize a deeper turn, more responsive turn.

If you looked at the trucks from the side, I'm sure the relationship between the pivot nub/cup, kingpin/kingpin angle, and the bushing seats would be very different between the two trucks.

[SwitchBenihana]

The V8 is just normal Venture geometry where they brought in the wheelbase by re drilling the holes. It wasn't "designed" really aside from very minor plate tweaks.

A T2 is a truck with a short wheelbase due to the actual geometry of the truck not hole position.

Between this and the measuring tape saga I'm starting to wonder...

[rawbertson.]

the venture definitely gonna feel like it hardly turns compared to the thunder but otherwise its almost the same as i have said its the same WB position and height, and pretty close in weight too.

one of the ways they changed the T2 was changing where the holes are drilled. i just think if you want a truck that has the same pop feel but you dont like how turny it is and you are changing the bushings, might as well just get the V8. and then the bonus of the V8 is if you decide you want to get a short WB board, you can just set it up normal way!

[SwitchBenihana]

It's not the same it has a completely different kingpin and yoke angle. It turns completely different. The baseplate sticks out more and it's also heavier. The only similarity is the approximate wheelbase. The hole position is based on the minimum distance they could do and now potentially have cracking issues between the 2 holes.

That is not the way they changed the T2. If you look at a normal Thunder the hole position isn't that much different. The main way they changed it was the kingpin and yoke angles. That's why it turns different than in the past. Not to mention a completely different plate shape and they added meat to the top of the hanger.

If you're going to be fervent about something please at least add some basic facts. Correlation does not equal causation and the wheelbase length is more of a coincidence than a DLX design choice.

[Lou Strux]

I never put any faith in "facts" that are based on opinion.

[Dan Gerous]

The only way V8 and T2 might feel close is if you ride your trucks so tight they can no longer turn, like use bushings made of solid metal tight.

[JM]

Look look look.

The only comparison that matters is Thunder vs. Indy.

And they turn pretty much the same. So stop bickering.

[JM]

Apologies, I was drinking beers… fight on if you’d like.

In more informative news: inverted Ace bushings are the exact same as Standard Thunder bushings.

Carry on.

[Rick Trapasso]

Apologies, I was drinking beers… fight on if you’d like.

In more informative news: inverted Ace bushings are the exact same as Standard Thunder bushings.

Carry on.

That's actually pretty huge for standard thunders enjoyers

[Cthulhu!]

That is very interesting. I just had another Thunder top bushing split on me. Again.

[SwitchBenihana]

Look look look.

The only comparison that matters is Thunder vs. Indy.

And they turn pretty much the same. So stop bickering.

I've ridden Indy most of my life and no, they don't really turn the same. With stock bushings the Thunder resists the end of the turn more and initiates faster on top. I actually consider it its own unique turn just like Lurpiv. I still have my T2, but would not buy again vs an Indy or normal Thunder.

[JM]

Expand Quote

Look look look.

The only comparison that matters is Thunder vs. Indy.

And they turn pretty much the same. So stop bickering.

[close]

I've ridden Indy most of my life and no, they don't really turn the same. With stock bushings the Thunder resists the end of the turn more and initiates faster on top. I actually consider it its own unique turn just like Lurpiv. I still have my T2, but would not buy again vs an Indy or normal Thunder.

I’m making fun of myself for saying that a while back

I said the Thunders turn about the same as Indy and got some push back. They don’t at all turn exactly the same of course, they’re just close enough.

I don’t care, I’m here for good fun, and skate gear talk. Just happy to be still skating, doing something that brings some joy.

[SwitchBenihana]

I'm a huge nerd (gear reviewer for a living), but often worry I'll bring too much of my technical side from that and kook it.