Author Topic: Beatrice Domond pro for FA very soon  (Read 518070 times)

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pizzafliptofakie

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Re: Beatrice Domond pro for FA very soon
« Reply #1620 on: July 21, 2023, 09:44:33 AM »
I think all future posts in this thread should be accompanied with a kickflip clip. Just to be sure.

sle_epy

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Re: Beatrice Domond pro for FA very soon
« Reply #1621 on: July 21, 2023, 09:45:33 AM »
If sle_epy can ride this topic to pal status I would like to nominate her as the recipient and rightful heir to the entire versacekid’s gofundme.

It would be true Poetic Justice to turn over those monies to someone who exemplifies what it means to make a claim and back it up.

She’s posted legit footy and has stated a claim to a treflip in the near future

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…Some stuff I came close to yesterday: tre flip (any day now).
[close]

What say you, Slap?

What say you, sle_epy?

Your first Pal post in this thread: a documented treflip for cash. A slap bounty if you will.

🫡🥴😒 Before this devolves into a flame me thread for how good I am or am not, it is hilarious that you mention riding this thread to slap pal because I thought about it like 10 min ago and laughed about it. Also I will def post a tre flip when I get slap pal status as a first post. Just need to dedicate some time to it.
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EdLawndale

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Re: Beatrice Domond pro for FA very soon
« Reply #1622 on: July 21, 2023, 09:49:00 AM »
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The bozos in here acting like Beatrice is some kind of Stepin Fetchit are the real problem. Get shit to do, you fucking cornballs. Urtripping has dismantled all of your paper-thin arguments with facts and logic. He doesn't have to say another thing.
[close]

No he hasn't. Only a couple of voices in here even matter and they hold more weight than a stereotypical males opinion.
[close]

This is a genuine question not meant to insult you or make fun of you, sleepy:

How old are you? What is your general age range?
[close]

Why, you want to engage in ad hominem attacks based on whether I'm too young to know better or too old to have a valid opinion on a skater who's a grown, almost 30 year old woman? It shouldn't matter how old I am.

No ad hominem attack, just a little perspective from someone who is older than you.

Right now it seems like the goings-ons of this public figure, whom you've never met but is participating in an activity that you also do (albeit on a grander stage), is a huge deal. You're a skater, a female one at that, and that is a large part of your identity, so much so that you're willing to spend hours arguing with strangers about this and that, aligning with folks named slikk slikk. You're passionate about it, even if you're unfocused and don't really have a lucid point at the end of the day. I've been there, trust me. We all have. It's understandable.

But as life goes on, it throws things at you. You focus more on your actual career, you get into serious relationships, tragedies happen, you deal with bad injuries, more and more ppl you shared giggles with die, etc. You get tired, aware. You get more conscious about how others perceive you and how you present yourself. You look back at things that you once put a lot of investment in, trivial things that felt so important to you at the time, and you cringe, realizing that some of the opinions you once held on to so fiercely simply aren't that significant. You probably still feel them in your heart, but you evolve to the point where you just laugh and shake your head or make a snide remark here and there.

You hopefully also figure out who the bad guys and the good guys are, and realize that the bad guys are the ones you should be zeroing in on. There's no scandal here. Nobody's been injured. It's not that serious. This lady gets paid to ride a plank of wood around the globe. Beatrice will retire at some point and business will go on as usual. Things will continue to progress. More and more talented women, of all races, will be given their rightful place as faces of skateboarding brands old and new.

You seem like a really cool person and I am glad that you found your way here with us. Relax a little.
"Was just about to say, wtf is up with this EdLawndale guy?"


companguero

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Re: Beatrice Domond pro for FA very soon
« Reply #1623 on: July 21, 2023, 09:49:14 AM »
Expand Quote
If sle_epy can ride this topic to pal status I would like to nominate her as the recipient and rightful heir to the entire versacekid’s gofundme.

It would be true Poetic Justice to turn over those monies to someone who exemplifies what it means to make a claim and back it up.

She’s posted legit footy and has stated a claim to a treflip in the near future

Expand Quote
…Some stuff I came close to yesterday: tre flip (any day now).
[close]

What say you, Slap?

What say you, sle_epy?

Your first Pal post in this thread: a documented treflip for cash. A slap bounty if you will.
[close]

🫡🥴😒 Before this devolves into a flame me thread for how good I am or am not, it is hilarious that you mention riding this thread to slap pal because I thought about it like 10 min ago and laughed about it. Also I will def post a tre flip when I get slap pal status as a first post. Just need to dedicate some time to it.

Shit, I’ll send you the $50 myself. Let’s Goooo


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camel filters

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Re: Beatrice Domond pro for FA very soon
« Reply #1624 on: July 21, 2023, 09:57:12 AM »
The vibes that I got from Marie's ig is that she's maybe getting Asics now. Her most recent clips are skating in those Dime Asics runners that just came out and Asics commented on her most recent post, which she commented back to. I'd guess that she quit Vans to skate for Asics.

Either way, this thread still sucks.
Still really doesn’t change the fact vans slept on her for years but was willing to market both her and chandler in campaigns to seem like they were down for the cause. Chandler talks about it in their vent city episode. Hope ASICS works out for her.

Threads decent. At least people are saying what’s on their mind. You have the rest of the board to bullshit on shoes and gear, who’s of what company, etc

sle_epy

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Re: Beatrice Domond pro for FA very soon
« Reply #1625 on: July 21, 2023, 10:00:29 AM »
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The bozos in here acting like Beatrice is some kind of Stepin Fetchit are the real problem. Get shit to do, you fucking cornballs. Urtripping has dismantled all of your paper-thin arguments with facts and logic. He doesn't have to say another thing.
[close]

No he hasn't. Only a couple of voices in here even matter and they hold more weight than a stereotypical males opinion.
[close]

This is a genuine question not meant to insult you or make fun of you, sleepy:

How old are you? What is your general age range?
[close]

Why, you want to engage in ad hominem attacks based on whether I'm too young to know better or too old to have a valid opinion on a skater who's a grown, almost 30 year old woman? It shouldn't matter how old I am.
[close]

No ad hominem attack, just a little perspective from someone who is older than you.

Right now it seems like the goings-ons of this public figure, whom you've never met but is participating in an activity that you also do (albeit on a grander stage), is a huge deal. You're a skater, a female one at that, and that is a large part of your identity, so much so that you're willing to spend hours arguing with strangers about this and that, aligning with folks named slikk slikk. You're passionate about it, even if you're unfocused and don't really have a lucid point at the end of the day. I've been there, trust me. We all have. It's understandable.

But as life goes on, it throws things at you. You focus more on your actual career, you get into serious relationships, tragedies happen, you deal with bad injuries, more and more ppl you shared giggles with die, etc. You get tired, aware. You get more conscious about how others perceive you and how you present yourself. You look back at things that you once put a lot of investment in, trivial things that felt so important to you at the time, and you cringe, realizing that some of the opinions you once held on to so fiercely simply aren't that significant. You probably still feel them in your heart, but you evolve to the point where you just laugh and shake your head or make a snide remark here and there.

You hopefully also figure out who the bad guys and the good guys are, and realize that the bad guys are the ones you should be zeroing in on. There's no scandal here. Nobody's been injured. It's not that serious. This lady gets paid to ride a plank of wood around the globe. Beatrice will retire at some point and business will go on as usual. Things will continue to progress. More and more talented women, of all races, will be given their rightful place as faces of skateboarding brands old and new.

You seem like a really cool person and I am glad that you found your way here with us. Relax a little.

I mainly think slap is fun and I love talking about skating arguing about it is fun. Nothing I've typed here has taken longer than ten minutes tops. My opinions surely change over time, but I've had it go the opposite way of your example too.

My stances on skate stuff has changed over the last few years and will probably continue to but there are some universal truths. I'm the type of person who is willing to admit I was wrong too. I'm self aware and love experiencing growth, which is why I engage in heated debates with people (though I'm not as emotionally invested as you think it's just slap after all).

They really make you think when you reflect on the argument. Especially if they're well written and can communicate well. My slap account isn't a persona, it's a slightly more outspoken version of myself because you know, it's the internet.

I don't think anything I've said has stepped over any lines though. I'm talking about her the same way an analyst or a fan of anything else would.

I'm sure over time some of you creeps who study ppls post history will see me change a lot over time as we interact, as people should when new facts or information / opinions / life experiences flow through they're eyeballs into their brains. This is me toned down.

Thanks for the thoughtful response.
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RichardBarkley

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Re: Beatrice Domond pro for FA very soon
« Reply #1626 on: July 21, 2023, 10:14:25 AM »
Sle_epy POTY
I want to fight you so badly richard
Please give me your address ill make it my life goal to punsh your face in

Mongo Lloyd

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Re: Beatrice Domond pro for FA very soon
« Reply #1627 on: July 21, 2023, 10:30:40 AM »
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Ngl Beatrice is cute AF, ya’ll can hate and be bitter. I’d be the white boy trying to get it.
[close]

I back. She's very beautiful.

Can I be in the wedding?

Fellow New Englanders get the invite. Bonus points if you’re a Mission of Burma fan.

Also

#TeamSle_epy

moonordie

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Re: Beatrice Domond pro for FA very soon
« Reply #1628 on: July 21, 2023, 10:33:35 AM »
I feel like Vans is leveraging people's negative opinions on Beatrice to drum up controversey and arguments for the sake of attention and sales fucking up by not giving all that focus to Nelly instead of Beatrice. I don't like that.
Fixed it for you :)
Sir, I'm going to politely, but firmly, ask you and your common sense to leave this establishment.

Democratic Republic Of Mongo

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Re: Beatrice Domond pro for FA very soon
« Reply #1629 on: July 21, 2023, 10:36:17 AM »
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They only have one disabled skater, Felipe Nunes. I hope the Vanguard Group gives Vans a good scolding about how they need to do better.
[close]
I hope they do too.

I thought it would be understood that I’m being a bit cheeky here. We’re taking moral, social justice cues from an investment management firm. Like the ones who want to sell us shoes and clothes are really trying to make the world a better place. It’s bait.

It’s like people acknowledge this one minute and forget it a minute later.

manysnakes

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Re: Beatrice Domond pro for FA very soon
« Reply #1630 on: July 21, 2023, 10:49:00 AM »
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They only have one disabled skater, Felipe Nunes. I hope the Vanguard Group gives Vans a good scolding about how they need to do better.
[close]
I hope they do too.
[close]

I thought it would be understood that I’m being a bit cheeky here. We’re taking moral, social justice cues from an investment management firm. Like the ones who want to sell us shoes and clothes are really trying to make the world a better place. It’s bait.

It’s like people acknowledge this one minute and forget it a minute later.

If we fail to consume correctly, how will we know who we are or whether or not we are good people?!

skunty

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Re: Beatrice Domond pro for FA very soon
« Reply #1631 on: July 21, 2023, 10:59:22 AM »
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I feel like Vans is leveraging people's negative opinions on Beatrice to drum up controversey and arguments for the sake of attention and sales. I don't like that.
[close]

I don’t see how that could be remotely their plan.   There have been plenty of skaters dogged with negative opinions that no one wants to touch.   Vans doesn’t even obliquely acknowledge the controversy either.   The only thing I could possibly imagine is that she had people negotiate her an extremely savvy contract that mandated colorways or her other colorways moved enough units to give her more.

honestly what i said was kinda dumb... unlesss... i guess the only possible oblique acknowledgement... the promo clip of her doin 50-50 front shove was a troll job.. cuz it was in the middle of the skate hivemind goin nuts on that. actually now that i think about it if thats what they are doing then actually i do like that.

leafman4000

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Re: Beatrice Domond pro for FA very soon
« Reply #1632 on: July 21, 2023, 11:51:38 AM »
I think all future posts in this thread should be accompanied with a kickflip 5050 fs shuv out clip. Just to be sure.
I also witnessed Bobby D grab his homies crotch

cky enthusiast

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Re: Beatrice Domond pro for FA very soon
« Reply #1633 on: July 21, 2023, 11:59:41 AM »
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They only have one disabled skater, Felipe Nunes. I hope the Vanguard Group gives Vans a good scolding about how they need to do better.
[close]
I hope they do too.
[close]

I thought it would be understood that I’m being a bit cheeky here. We’re taking moral, social justice cues from an investment management firm. Like the ones who want to sell us shoes and clothes are really trying to make the world a better place. It’s bait.

It’s like people acknowledge this one minute and forget it a minute later.
[close]

If we fail to consume correctly, how will we know who we are or whether or not we are good people?!

my goods reflect my ideology

who on this thread has smoked dippers

camel filters

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Re: Beatrice Domond pro for FA very soon
« Reply #1634 on: July 21, 2023, 12:11:57 PM »
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They only have one disabled skater, Felipe Nunes. I hope the Vanguard Group gives Vans a good scolding about how they need to do better.
[close]
I hope they do too.
[close]

I thought it would be understood that I’m being a bit cheeky here. We’re taking moral, social justice cues from an investment management firm. Like the ones who want to sell us shoes and clothes are really trying to make the world a better place. It’s bait.

It’s like people acknowledge this one minute and forget it a minute later.
Oh I got that you were being cheeky. I also understand that none of these ideals should be taken seriously coming from a company like Vans. I was just stating I rather see them make soulless moves like that one over the soulless moves they're currently making.

pizzafliptofakie

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Re: Beatrice Domond pro for FA very soon
« Reply #1635 on: July 21, 2023, 12:17:00 PM »
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I think all future posts in this thread should be accompanied with a kickflip 5050 fs shuv out clip. Just to be sure.
[close]


ya know, I've been thinking about it, and I'm not sure if I've ever even tried doing a 5050 fs shuv.



Guess I'll have to go earn my ticket back into this thread later.

Christmas Complete

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Re: Beatrice Domond pro for FA very soon
« Reply #1636 on: July 21, 2023, 12:23:13 PM »
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The bozos in here acting like Beatrice is some kind of Stepin Fetchit are the real problem. Get shit to do, you fucking cornballs. Urtripping has dismantled all of your paper-thin arguments with facts and logic. He doesn't have to say another thing.
[close]

No he hasn't. Only a couple of voices in here even matter and they hold more weight than a stereotypical males opinion.
[close]

This is a genuine question not meant to insult you or make fun of you, sleepy:

How old are you? What is your general age range?
[close]

Why, you want to engage in ad hominem attacks based on whether I'm too young to know better or too old to have a valid opinion on a skater who's a grown, almost 30 year old woman? It shouldn't matter how old I am.
[close]

No ad hominem attack, just a little perspective from someone who is older than you.

Right now it seems like the goings-ons of this public figure, whom you've never met but is participating in an activity that you also do (albeit on a grander stage), is a huge deal. You're a skater, a female one at that, and that is a large part of your identity, so much so that you're willing to spend hours arguing with strangers about this and that, aligning with folks named slikk slikk. You're passionate about it, even if you're unfocused and don't really have a lucid point at the end of the day. I've been there, trust me. We all have. It's understandable.

But as life goes on, it throws things at you. You focus more on your actual career, you get into serious relationships, tragedies happen, you deal with bad injuries, more and more ppl you shared giggles with die, etc. You get tired, aware. You get more conscious about how others perceive you and how you present yourself. You look back at things that you once put a lot of investment in, trivial things that felt so important to you at the time, and you cringe, realizing that some of the opinions you once held on to so fiercely simply aren't that significant. You probably still feel them in your heart, but you evolve to the point where you just laugh and shake your head or make a snide remark here and there.

You hopefully also figure out who the bad guys and the good guys are, and realize that the bad guys are the ones you should be zeroing in on. There's no scandal here. Nobody's been injured. It's not that serious. This lady gets paid to ride a plank of wood around the globe. Beatrice will retire at some point and business will go on as usual. Things will continue to progress. More and more talented women, of all races, will be given their rightful place as faces of skateboarding brands old and new.

You seem like a really cool person and I am glad that you found your way here with us. Relax a little.

This might be the most utterly condescending post I've ever seen here.
Andy Anderson, I cannot sanction your buffoonery.

franquietits

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Re: Beatrice Domond pro for FA very soon
« Reply #1637 on: July 21, 2023, 12:23:22 PM »
Idk, if she were just simply better at skating then no one would really care to view it as a problem. It would be easier for everyone to celebrate her (half of us already do). I think it's hard to convince a bunch of consumers — who've been bred to believe that being sponsored means you should possess a high standard of skill — why you should care about someone who doesn't have that. The positive identity politics behind it are obviously a great valuable thing, and you can tell in general that she is a huge fan/passionate, but it just won't compute with most who love seeing skill. It reminds me of this quote from Anderson's vice piece about coming out, @ 7:45-8:10, which really sums it up:

 

Noble Experiment

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Re: Beatrice Domond pro for FA very soon
« Reply #1638 on: July 21, 2023, 12:32:17 PM »
I seen her part, it’s super slappy heavy. Lots of weird slappy variations, lots of clips at the Costco curbs and a few at that famous McDonald’s curb that was in the Mcslappys video. Her ender was a fs slappy fs shuv out on a downhill red curb in Pomona Beach.










Just kidding, I haven’t seen her part yet.

Watson

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Re: Beatrice Domond pro for FA very soon
« Reply #1639 on: July 21, 2023, 12:33:18 PM »
I used to do 50-50 front shoves. Even tried to film one for a part in 98 but broke my board. Gonna do one again soon just for the fun of it.

Actual question, has any legit sponsored skater done a 50-50 front shove in a legit video that you can think of? Would love to check some others out.

sle_epy

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Re: Beatrice Domond pro for FA very soon
« Reply #1640 on: July 21, 2023, 12:33:45 PM »
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The bozos in here acting like Beatrice is some kind of Stepin Fetchit are the real problem. Get shit to do, you fucking cornballs. Urtripping has dismantled all of your paper-thin arguments with facts and logic. He doesn't have to say another thing.
[close]

No he hasn't. Only a couple of voices in here even matter and they hold more weight than a stereotypical males opinion.
[close]

This is a genuine question not meant to insult you or make fun of you, sleepy:

How old are you? What is your general age range?
[close]

Why, you want to engage in ad hominem attacks based on whether I'm too young to know better or too old to have a valid opinion on a skater who's a grown, almost 30 year old woman? It shouldn't matter how old I am.
[close]

No ad hominem attack, just a little perspective from someone who is older than you.

Right now it seems like the goings-ons of this public figure, whom you've never met but is participating in an activity that you also do (albeit on a grander stage), is a huge deal. You're a skater, a female one at that, and that is a large part of your identity, so much so that you're willing to spend hours arguing with strangers about this and that, aligning with folks named slikk slikk. You're passionate about it, even if you're unfocused and don't really have a lucid point at the end of the day. I've been there, trust me. We all have. It's understandable.

But as life goes on, it throws things at you. You focus more on your actual career, you get into serious relationships, tragedies happen, you deal with bad injuries, more and more ppl you shared giggles with die, etc. You get tired, aware. You get more conscious about how others perceive you and how you present yourself. You look back at things that you once put a lot of investment in, trivial things that felt so important to you at the time, and you cringe, realizing that some of the opinions you once held on to so fiercely simply aren't that significant. You probably still feel them in your heart, but you evolve to the point where you just laugh and shake your head or make a snide remark here and there.

You hopefully also figure out who the bad guys and the good guys are, and realize that the bad guys are the ones you should be zeroing in on. There's no scandal here. Nobody's been injured. It's not that serious. This lady gets paid to ride a plank of wood around the globe. Beatrice will retire at some point and business will go on as usual. Things will continue to progress. More and more talented women, of all races, will be given their rightful place as faces of skateboarding brands old and new.

You seem like a really cool person and I am glad that you found your way here with us. Relax a little.
[close]

This might be the most utterly condescending post I've ever seen here.

🫡
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pizzafliptofakie

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Re: Beatrice Domond pro for FA very soon
« Reply #1641 on: July 21, 2023, 12:35:09 PM »
I used to do 50-50 front shoves. Even tried to film one for a part in 98 but broke my board. Gonna do one again soon just for the fun of it.

Actual question, has any legit sponsored skater done a 50-50 front shove in a legit video that you can think of? Would love to check some others out.





1:01

PatrickSkateman

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Re: Beatrice Domond pro for FA very soon
« Reply #1642 on: July 21, 2023, 12:35:15 PM »
I used to do 50-50 front shoves. Even tried to film one for a part in 98 but broke my board. Gonna do one again soon just for the fun of it.

Actual question, has any legit sponsored skater done a 50-50 front shove in a legit video that you can think of? Would love to check some others out.

Supa did one switch in Mixtape.
2022 Slap Fantasy Football Champion

pizzafliptofakie

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Re: Beatrice Domond pro for FA very soon
« Reply #1643 on: July 21, 2023, 12:36:04 PM »
fuck it, let's post more 5050 shuvs




skunty

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Re: Beatrice Domond pro for FA very soon
« Reply #1644 on: July 21, 2023, 12:43:11 PM »
swear to god the first front shove i landed was out of a front 50 and i didnt land it on flat until at least a year later

Noble Experiment

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Re: Beatrice Domond pro for FA very soon
« Reply #1645 on: July 21, 2023, 12:44:24 PM »
I used to do 50-50 front shoves. Even tried to film one for a part in 98 but broke my board. Gonna do one again soon just for the fun of it.

Actual question, has any legit sponsored skater done a 50-50 front shove in a legit video that you can think of? Would love to check some others out.

0:32

Last trick; not fs shuv out, it’s a fs big, but still posting it.

PatrickSkateman

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Re: Beatrice Domond pro for FA very soon
« Reply #1646 on: July 21, 2023, 12:53:15 PM »
I wanna see more 50-50 front shuvs
I’d rather see that in a line than a fucking tre flip at this point. I hope her whole part is just one stomped out 50-50 front shuv after another. 10 trick line of nothing but the most beautiful executed frontside 50/50 grinds to frontside shove it’s all in the same curb with all the homies cheering in the background. Slap pals getting BGP and all that. Just some really merry Christmas vibes. Everyone smoking indica instead of sativa. Just chilling the fuck out.

2022 Slap Fantasy Football Champion

chihuahuadad2000

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Re: Beatrice Domond pro for FA very soon
« Reply #1647 on: July 21, 2023, 01:12:13 PM »
A haiku for beatrice:

I’m Grinding Along
50-50 Until I Die
Shuv into Coffin

Septa Bus

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Re: Beatrice Domond pro for FA very soon
« Reply #1648 on: July 21, 2023, 01:51:37 PM »
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The bozos in here acting like Beatrice is some kind of Stepin Fetchit are the real problem. Get shit to do, you fucking cornballs. Urtripping has dismantled all of your paper-thin arguments with facts and logic. He doesn't have to say another thing.
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No he hasn't. Only a couple of voices in here even matter and they hold more weight than a stereotypical males opinion.
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This is a genuine question not meant to insult you or make fun of you, sleepy:

How old are you? What is your general age range?
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Why, you want to engage in ad hominem attacks based on whether I'm too young to know better or too old to have a valid opinion on a skater who's a grown, almost 30 year old woman? It shouldn't matter how old I am.
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No ad hominem attack, just a little perspective from someone who is older than you.

Right now it seems like the goings-ons of this public figure, whom you've never met but is participating in an activity that you also do (albeit on a grander stage), is a huge deal. You're a skater, a female one at that, and that is a large part of your identity, so much so that you're willing to spend hours arguing with strangers about this and that, aligning with folks named slikk slikk. You're passionate about it, even if you're unfocused and don't really have a lucid point at the end of the day. I've been there, trust me. We all have. It's understandable.

But as life goes on, it throws things at you. You focus more on your actual career, you get into serious relationships, tragedies happen, you deal with bad injuries, more and more ppl you shared giggles with die, etc. You get tired, aware. You get more conscious about how others perceive you and how you present yourself. You look back at things that you once put a lot of investment in, trivial things that felt so important to you at the time, and you cringe, realizing that some of the opinions you once held on to so fiercely simply aren't that significant. You probably still feel them in your heart, but you evolve to the point where you just laugh and shake your head or make a snide remark here and there.

You hopefully also figure out who the bad guys and the good guys are, and realize that the bad guys are the ones you should be zeroing in on. There's no scandal here. Nobody's been injured. It's not that serious. This lady gets paid to ride a plank of wood around the globe. Beatrice will retire at some point and business will go on as usual. Things will continue to progress. More and more talented women, of all races, will be given their rightful place as faces of skateboarding brands old and new.

You seem like a really cool person and I am glad that you found your way here with us. Relax a little.

“I am glad my three like minded individuals who dogpiled on you with my same terrible take forced you into responding like us, as it gives us the piece of mind that we are in control of this board bc we’re the coolest, duh”


Yonnycage

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Re: Beatrice Domond pro for FA very soon
« Reply #1649 on: July 21, 2023, 02:07:05 PM »
This thread exists because she sucks ass at skating and seems entitled to some kind of legend status even though she hasn’t done anything a 12 year old at the local can’t.

It’s not cause she’s black or a woman. Why is this shit so hard to understand. Fuckin bunch of warriors in here writing a thesis about why she deserves 4 pro shoes and a board it’s not that deep. If it was me there’d be a massive shitstorm too.