The Slap Message Boards and the Trial of Jamie Thomas

[Ronald Wilson Reagan]

I'm a 23 year old computer technician at our county school system in rural western NC, I like long walks on the beach and going to new restraunts.

I'm turning our kids into libertarian-socialists that can fend for themselves when The Gipper's government programs inevitably fail them.

Give an example of once in U.S. history that government regulation of big business has caused a single problem in terms of our stability.
Keep in mind that 14th amendment protection of corporations is based on precedent, not legislation, and in fact is considered one of the most anti-regulatory decisions in U.S. history.
Also, please note that regulation of big business succeeded in the progressive era, to end the great depression, and numerous times throughout U.S. history, so your implication that government regulation is always destined to fail is not grounded in fact at all, just hairball "if-then" hypotheses.
And my revolutionaries won't be failed by the government, they will be the government, when it goes back to of,by, and for the people instead of large companies.

Also, in many ways I am oversimplifying it. Certainly deregulation alone doesn't cause economic strife, but the fact remains that every major economic crisis in U.S. history has come immediately after extended periods of deregulation.
The harding, coolidge, and hoover administrations did it before the great depression.
Harrison, Cleveland, and Arthur didn't want to mess with the new growth in industry before 1893. This also led to the conditions we see in the book "The Jungle."
Right now we have Bush, Clinton, Bush II, and of course, Ronnie Reagan doing the same thing.

Sleazy, what are you referring to in terms of "western communism," specifically? Is the U.S.S.R and eastern bloc considered western vs. China and Viet Nam as eastern? Or are we talking about Cuba and Venezuela, which have yet to collapse? Or is it another?
If it is the U.S.S.R. thing I would argue overmilitarization of the budget made the seems bust more than anything.

To add to Grim's point, another issue would be to enforce U.S. labor laws on any merchandise bought in the U.S. If you have slave labor making your shit, why is it illegal to exploit somebody here, but if you go over there, its ok?

And Chief, Grim brings up a good point, if other companies can afford to do it, why can't one of the largest, most successful, and most popular brands figure out how to do it? Not trying to be too haterish, I'll support you guys full throttle if you can get the exploitative labor out of the way.

[Sleazy]

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for one thing over regulation can be just a stiffling to an economy as under regulated. the colapse of western communism seems like it had everything to do with a lack of the influence of adam smith's invisible hand.

also if we over regulate to a point that our goods and services are unable to compete in a global economy for the sake of idealism then imports become increasingly greater than exports, followed by devaluation of the dollar, and then economic downward spiral, etc...

[close]

Yes too much regulation is bad, but it' is very clear that this isn't our problem right now. Call it regulation, call it what you want, anyone that looks at this issue objectively can see many clear examples of things that should be changed if we care about jobs and living in America. Most notably, are our: disasterious trade policies, billions in corporate subsidies, no-bid contracts at home and in iraq, and on and on. I think that there is a clear ground we could reach where you could do what you wanted, but if you want to run your business in America you must do it the right way, or at least not in a earth-destroying way. I don't think that would be anything close to the kind of fascist/communist systems you are describing. If anything, we have basically a government controlled by the corporations right now, which doesn't seem all that better than the inverse.

Corporations need to be put in check but I was just making the point that level of regulation is a balance and the right balance has not yet been discovered. Macroeconomic theory was born out of the great depression and we just haven't had enough imperical trial and error to know what that correct balance is over the last 30 years.

Gipper already covered a bunch of my points... I just say we need to bring back import tariffs, since it's the only way the US can actually be competitive with any industrial market. Make the imported shit more expensive, and as mentioned, stop dealing with countries with ongoing human rights violations. Just scale back everything to pre-Reagan economic policies and we're off to a good start. Faster, consider that the US was once a solid global competitor when it came to technology, textiles, autos and just about anything else a person would want to purchase... back in the days when Wal Mart was "Buy American!"

Deregulation, the dropping of tariffs, the idea that the US can sustain itself as a "service economy," and Thomas Friedman's bullshit "free market" speak... when in fact we have no such thing as a free market. There's not one big global market, all markets are controlled by the governments operating them by varying degrees... and when our market is dependent on the communists in China, the class systems in India, and the union busting in Mexico, then we're actually just sustaining an indentured servant or slave labor market. On the plus side, at least a US company can actually own a business in Mexico, versus the Chinese situation where you're basically "partnered" in.

I can't help but wonder... if one or two companies can afford to press wood here in the US, why can't more?

But how do you compete globally? My company sells seismic systems and the biggest markets right now are in China. Our competitors are willing to use material that are manufactured overseas. So my question is how to we compete? Seriously, I'd like to know how that works.

I'd love it if things were that simple, my job is headed overseas one day too. I currently have to compete globally with programmers who charge a 10th of what I do. So I'm not stoked about it. But it is what it is.


Also, how do you increase your circular flow when your products are not competitive globally? and if you can't increase your circular flow then how to do sustain a quality of life for an exponentially increasing population on a constant\decreasing pool of wealth?

[Sleazy]

Sleazy, what are you referring to in terms of "western communism," specifically? Is the U.S.S.R and eastern bloc considered western vs. China and Viet Nam as eastern? Or are we talking about Cuba and Venezuela, which have yet to collapse? Or is it another?
If it is the U.S.S.R. thing I would argue overmilitarization of the budget made the seems bust more than anything.

semantics? i thought you were above that but ok then

The culture of the most of the Soviet Union (Russia and other former Soviet republics from Eastern European region) and its Eastern European allies is pronouncedly Western[citation needed], as defined below.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_culture

but really, you know what i meant or have some eastern(asian) communist regimes collapsed?

[H8R part 4]

I like long walks on the beach and going to new restraunts.

you know, by dining at those "new restaurants", you're exploiting the immigrants that work there.
you should stop eating out and only go to places that hire americans.
stop dining at places that hire immigrants, stop wearing clothes made in china/indonesia, and stop wearing shoes made in korea. 
in doing so, you're supporting everything you dislike so much. 
 

They are lucky TJ hasn't moved production over to China like other companies. They better shut the fuck up and enjoy earning less than the American minimum wage, or they'll lose it.
TJ gets rich, workers stay poor.
Of course, TJ isn't out of the norm. His practices are what most do to stay iin business. Does it make TJ a bad person for doing this? Yes, slavery was the norm at one point too, but it was "just how we keep the price of cotton down, do you know how much it would cost without slavery?" It is how it is, but a good person wouldn't sit idly and let that be.

 

what makes you think he keeps all the money?  most business owners get paid less than their employees(tax purposes) and re-invest the money they make back into their company.
you sound like that kid who thinks a shop makes $50 every time they sell a board for $50.  its called a profit margin, with that profit margin, he pays all his bills and all his employees, then lastly himself.
 
i'm sure he could change and not sit idly by, but then his company would go out of business and he'd have to fire 125+ employees for the sake of his morality.  i'm sure that would go over well with all his employees and their families.

I can't help but wonder... if one or two companies can afford to press wood here in the US, why can't more?

   

its not a matter of afford, its a matter of volume.
a small company doesn't move enough volume to justify taking their manufacturing to china.
pressing 1,000,000 pcs in china is cost effective(i.e. girl), pressing 1000 pcs in china is not cost effective(i.e. any small company).

from what i've noticed, bigger companies spend more on advertising and less on quality, while smaller companies tend to spend more on quality and less on advertising.  this is why i support smaller companies that put out quality products as opposed to popular companies that put out subpar products. 


which board companies(big guys) out there still make their board here? 
 

 

[Ronald Wilson Reagan]

But who is it that is competing Sleazy? I understand your point and it makes sense, businesses need to compete to succeed, but if it is selling everything abroad, buying and manufacturing everything abroad, and even paying taxes abroad, what use is the life of the corporation if it doesn't support its workers?
You said your job is going overseas too, who's isn't? And eventually, why won't these people abroad realize they can make and run their own shit without some suit in the U.S. barking orders from NYC? At which point, the whole company goes out, and the bottom falls out on the economy. Why wouldn't this happen?

Honestly, I wasn't sure what you were talking about with the term "western communism" given that we so often call European communist eastern, or "the eastern bloc" that hearing the term "western communism" threw me. But, can we seperate government regulation (what we have/should have here) from government take-over of private enterprise (communism)? They are very different.

Also, Grim, sleazy, nick, are we agreed that in our current circumstances we need more regulation of industry, no matter what our stand is in a generic situation?

And Faster!, stop.  I already talked about why Dagger probably would have trouble finding products that don't exploit foreign labor. Of course immigrant labor is totally different and can be regulated.
The fact that you think company owners of large corporations make less than the average worker is just ignorant. Here is an article about the average pay ratio of ceo to workers in 2006, http://www.epi.org/content.cfm/webfeatures_snapshots_20060627
it has just gotten worse since then. Maybe the manager at a skateshop is getting the same or less, but by the time its a big company its so askew its not even funny.

[Matze]

too much text ... too much text ... too much text. could someone sum up these posts in 2 sentence for me?

[SLAPTASTIC]

too much text ... too much text ... too much text. could someone sum up these posts in 2 sentence for me?

9/11 was an inside job

[bothersome]

This topic proves how smart I am not.

[bizarro gub]

its thread like these that really keep slap the tight knit community that we are.

[Ronald Wilson Reagan]

Most people think outsourcing is often exploitative, and that currently there is not enough regulation over large industry. Others disagree.

2 sentences. bam!
You get it too now slaptastic? You are doing a good job of proving that you don't have to get what is going on to think you are smarter than everybody.
rw- it doesn't mean smart or dumb, its just politics.  some people nerd out on it like skating.

[SLAPTASTIC]

Chill the fuck out you Glenn Beck wannabe, I don't feel like writing an essay on economics right now, thats all..

[beeda weeda]

really good thread, good tread, I understand the debate going on, but I don't have enough knowledge of global economics to add anything relevant.
I am the buyer for a Canadian based priting/manufacturing company, and it has effected us, we've had to source overseas, and its sad.

[Sleazy]

But who is it that is competing Sleazy? I understand your point and it makes sense, businesses need to compete to succeed, but if it is selling everything abroad, buying and manufacturing everything abroad, and even paying taxes abroad, what use is the life of the corporation if it doesn't support its workers?
You said your job is going overseas too, who's isn't? And eventually, why won't these people abroad realize they can make and run their own shit without some suit in the U.S. barking orders from NYC? At which point, the whole company goes out, and the bottom falls out on the economy. Why wouldn't this happen?

well because our penises are so big, why else?

I'm not sure other than the fact that it's innovation that drives capitalism. Why do US company's make so much more money in skateboarding if the boards are made in china? why can't they just start their own companies and sell skateboards? i'd guess it's because we invinted this shit and skateboarding is a as much a cultural product as it is a piece of hardware and we are innovative as far as the cultural component is concerned.

But, can we seperate government regulation (what we have/should have here) from government take-over of private enterprise (communism)? They are very different.

actually i don't think they are different at all. the way i see it communism and capitalism are diametrically opposed extremes of government regulation.

pure capitalism = no regulation
pure communism = 100% regulation

but neither one will be able to maintain a healthy economy in isolation as we've seen over the last centry with increased regulation here and decreased in eastern communist nations. so again my point is that it's about the right balance.

Also, Grim, sleazy, nick, are we agreed that in our current circumstances we need more regulation of industry, no matter what our stand is in a generic situation?

i think we are ready for some corporate reform but labor practices and outsourcing isn't where i'd put the regulation. really they need to put CEOs\upper managers in check for the whole sell out trend that's been so popular over the last few years (lean out company, re-brand and sell) and i think the influence of corporate interest needs to be removed from government (corporate campaign donations and lobbyist).

but as far as economic regulation, it's dangerous and i still believe in free markets. i mean, it's what made us the richest nation in the world.

[Ronald Wilson Reagan]

Chill the fuck out you Glenn Beck wannabe, I don't feel like writing an essay on economics right now, thats all..

Don't you call me Glenn Beck. I am pretty much the opposite of him politically, but its ok classic "I'm somebody famous but I won't tell you who" guy. keep knowing you are better than everybody.

Sleazy, I can see your point on every argument but this one:

but as far as economic regulation, it's dangerous and i still believe in free markets. i mean, it's what made us the richest nation in the world.

The closer we get to a true free market, the more inequal income becomes, and economic problems come from this.

But in terms of defining government ownership of private enterprise as an extreme of government regulation, I'll accept it, and I see what you mean in terms of using it as an example of how it slows down industry as it grows more extreme, but I still think that there is a jump between heavy government external regulation, and outright government ownership

[biggums mcgee]

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I like long walks on the beach and going to new restraunts.

[close]

you know, by dining at those "new restaurants", you're exploiting the immigrants that work there.
you should stop eating out and only go to places that hire americans.
stop dining at places that hire immigrants, stop wearing clothes made in china/indonesia, and stop wearing shoes made in korea. 
in doing so, you're supporting everything you dislike so much. 
 

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They are lucky TJ hasn't moved production over to China like other companies. They better shut the fuck up and enjoy earning less than the American minimum wage, or they'll lose it.
TJ gets rich, workers stay poor.
Of course, TJ isn't out of the norm. His practices are what most do to stay iin business. Does it make TJ a bad person for doing this? Yes, slavery was the norm at one point too, but it was "just how we keep the price of cotton down, do you know how much it would cost without slavery?" It is how it is, but a good person wouldn't sit idly and let that be.

[close]

 

what makes you think he keeps all the money?  most business owners get paid less than their employees(tax purposes) and re-invest the money they make back into their company.
you sound like that kid who thinks a shop makes $50 every time they sell a board for $50.  its called a profit margin, with that profit margin, he pays all his bills and all his employees, then lastly himself.
 
i'm sure he could change and not sit idly by, but then his company would go out of business and he'd have to fire 125+ employees for the sake of his morality.  i'm sure that would go over well with all his employees and their families.

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I can't help but wonder... if one or two companies can afford to press wood here in the US, why can't more?

[close]

   

its not a matter of afford, its a matter of volume.
a small company doesn't move enough volume to justify taking their manufacturing to china.
pressing 1,000,000 pcs in china is cost effective(i.e. girl), pressing 1000 pcs in china is not cost effective(i.e. any small company).

from what i've noticed, bigger companies spend more on advertising and less on quality, while smaller companies tend to spend more on quality and less on advertising.  this is why i support smaller companies that put out quality products as opposed to popular companies that put out subpar products. 


which board companies(big guys) out there still make their board here? 
 

 

well, Zoo and dna for starters. depends on what you call big...listen and chapman do their stuff here...pretty sure blue collar does too if they're still around?

[SLAPTASTIC]

The closer we get to a true free market, the more inequal income becomes, and economic problems come from this.

I think the market would sort it self out, and there would be greater opportunities for all in such a situation.

[BriDen]

Mr. Jamie "ISUCK!" Thomas, please direct your attention this way.

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So Jamie got a premiere/release date for Ride The Sky yet?

[close]

And you're still pickin up all the pals in a limo/creepy van right?

[Ronald Wilson Reagan]

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The closer we get to a true free market, the more inequal income becomes, and economic problems come from this.

[close]

I think the market would sort it self out, and there would be greater opportunities for all in such a situation.

It has never worked that way in history.
I'd like to think that by sitting around smoking pot and jerking off all day that I could be successful, it just ain't the way it is.

[MexicanSpaniard]

Mr. Jamie "ISUCK!" Thomas, please direct your attention this way.

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So Jamie got a premiere/release date for Ride The Sky yet?

[close]

And you're still pickin up all the pals in a limo/creepy van right?

[close]

I'll be disappointed if there's no Denver stop.

[SLAPTASTIC]

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Chill the fuck out you Glenn Beck wannabe, I don't feel like writing an essay on economics right now, thats all..

[close]

Don't you call me Glenn Beck. I am pretty much the opposite of him politically, but its ok classic "I'm somebody famous but I won't tell you who" guy. keep knowing you are better than everybody.

Sorry I've sort of being glossing over your posts. Ill try to read your policy recommendations with full concentration from now on. And thats what my initial point was two pages back, namedropping myself will only lead to 190 pages of either dickriding or senseless hate posts

[beeda weeda]

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The closer we get to a true free market, the more inequal income becomes, and economic problems come from this.

[close]

I think the market would sort it self out, and there would be greater opportunities for all in such a situation.

[close]

It has never worked that way in history.
I'd like to think that by sitting around smoking pot and jerking off all day that I could be successful, it just ain't the way it is.

economicaly sucessfull, no. sucsessfully awsome? a big yes.

[biggums mcgee]

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Chill the fuck out you Glenn Beck wannabe, I don't feel like writing an essay on economics right now, thats all..

[close]

Don't you call me Glenn Beck. I am pretty much the opposite of him politically, but its ok classic "I'm somebody famous but I won't tell you who" guy. keep knowing you are better than everybody.

[close]

Sorry I've sort of being glossing over your posts. Ill try to read your policy recommendations with full concentration from now on. And thats what my initial point was two pages back, namedropping myself will only lead to 190 pages of either dickriding or senseless hate posts

nothing wrong with some good old-fashion male bonding...

[Sleazy]

equalizing incomes is a goal of communism not capitalism. equalizing incomes would be the worst thing we'd do. then you take incentive away which takes away innovation and economic growth.

if you can't get any richer inventing a cure for cancer than you would driving a bus, then why spend all the years sacrificing in school. it's why pure communism is best suited for poor agrarian cultures and not industrialized nations.






but really my biggest point in all this is that economics are kind of boring for most people and the attack on JTs labor practices will lead to these kinds of debates and it's completely an unfair critisim.

just call him a faggot if that's what you want to do, no need to bring economics into it.

[Ronald Wilson Reagan]

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Chill the fuck out you Glenn Beck wannabe, I don't feel like writing an essay on economics right now, thats all..

[close]

Don't you call me Glenn Beck. I am pretty much the opposite of him politically, but its ok classic "I'm somebody famous but I won't tell you who" guy. keep knowing you are better than everybody.

[close]

Sorry I've sort of being glossing over your posts. Ill try to read your policy recommendations with full concentration from now on. And thats what my initial point was two pages back, namedropping myself will only lead to 190 pages of either dickriding or senseless hate posts

190 pages? Jamie only got 120. You think highly of yourself. Saying "I'm somebody important, but I won't tell you who" is far cheesier than just name dropping. Either say who you are, or don't say a damn thing at all. My guess is you are nobody anyway.
But if you are just "glossing over [my] posts," then don't fucking worry about what I say.

Sleazy- equal incomes is not good, reducing the gap between the rich and the poor is very important though. When a large country has a large underclass and a small overclass it leads to instability.
As far as Jamie goes, he's just one player in an extremely large, fucked up game. My point is that it is easier to go with it, but ideally you could try to do things right in a moral sense.
Also, I could make more money working a very low level job in a large corporation. Money isn't the only incentive. Some people enjoy the incentive of being able to feel like you did something good for somebody else.

[NickDagger]

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which board companies(big guys) out there still make their board here? 

[close]

well, Zoo and dna for starters. depends on what you call big...listen and chapman do their stuff here...pretty sure blue collar does too if they're still around?

Deluxe dosen't?

[NickDagger]

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The closer we get to a true free market, the more inequal income becomes, and economic problems come from this.

[close]

I think the market would sort it self out, and there would be greater opportunities for all in such a situation.

[close]

It has never worked that way in history.
I'd like to think that by sitting around smoking pot and jerking off all day that I could be successful, it just ain't the way it is.

Yes, but to be fair free-markets have never really existed. I definitely buy into a lot of the ideas of Austrian economics, but lets be clear, what we have in America is more of a corporate controlled government, that is to say, neither a heavily regulated economy or a government-free economy. We actually have the corporations RUNNING the government, lobbyists actually write our fucking laws.

[Wizard Fuck]

Democracies don't last forever.

[Ronald Wilson Reagan]

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The closer we get to a true free market, the more inequal income becomes, and economic problems come from this.

[close]

I think the market would sort it self out, and there would be greater opportunities for all in such a situation.

[close]

It has never worked that way in history.
I'd like to think that by sitting around smoking pot and jerking off all day that I could be successful, it just ain't the way it is.

[close]

Yes, but to be fair free-markets have never really existed. I definitely buy into a lot of the ideas of Austrian economics, but lets be clear, what we have in America is more of a corporate controlled government, that is to say, neither a heavily regulated economy or a government-free economy. We actually have the corporations RUNNING the government, lobbyists actually write our fucking laws.

Corporations control the government when the government does not control corporations. There is the private sector and the public sector, the less in control the public sector is, the more in control the private sector is. The less regulated industry is, the further we get on the path we are already on of corporate control. Somebody has to be in charge, the lust for power will never go away.


Also, I know this is going wayyyyyy back, but who/how did Jayme Fortune get chased off?

[grimcity]

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The closer we get to a true free market, the more inequal income becomes, and economic problems come from this.

[close]

I think the market would sort it self out, and there would be greater opportunities for all in such a situation.

Has the US free market ever encountered a crisis that sorted itself out without the aid of some sort of government subsidy or other bail out? If it were up to our market alone, we wouldn't have domestic air travel, AmTrak, or most most megafarms, among other things.

The free market is why we had VHS instead of Beta (which was better in every way). The free market is often very stupid... and when it fucks up, it goes right back to the government to fix (Enron's energy mess in Cali, the current mortgage/credit crisis, etc).

Also, Grim, sleazy, nick, are we agreed that in our current circumstances we need more regulation of industry, no matter what our stand is in a generic situation?

Hell yeah I agree... Reagan, Clinton and Bush era deregulation and ill-though globalization initiatives got us into this mess in the first place.

Aside:
I really wish Clinton had taken Ross Perot's take on NAFTA... his signing it was a bigger fuckup than getting his intern to slobber on his junk. Now we have Bush's CAFTA, which will run Louisiana sugar cane farmers out of business, and there are too many other __FTA equivalents out there not only sucking us dry, but also fucking up the middle classes of the countries that host those agreements. NAFTA was supposed to be a huge boom for the Mexican middle class, but all of the money goes straight to the top, so profits look great, but the money doesn't get to the middle class, who eventually turn into lower mid to just lower economically. 

[Gest]

i dont really know at this point what everyone is talking about, all i can come up with is that some people in this thread sure complain a lot about problems in our nation and really don't take any realistic action to their complaints, except talking on a message board

where is pierce to come in and say "ur all fags ya", ive been waiting for that. this is sk8 tlak