McSame picked a women VP

[NickDagger]

I agree on both points.

[Sleazy]

my wife and i have developed a business plan for a retail shop we are planning to open in austin when we move there in the next year. we've been approved for funding because she busted her ass for 6 months putting together a great business plan after i had encouraged her to do so. the whole point is to get her out of the corporate world first because her salary is half mine and my skills are in much higher demand and come with jobs with great benifits which we need because we have a child.

we are moving to austin in an effort for me to be able to transition my job away from the conservative corporate shitholes that i've worked for here in Houston like Stewart Title, in hopes of finding more liberal minded corporations\start ups to work for in Austin. i actually told my wife i'd only be willing to have a child if she'd be willing to move to austin because i didn't want to get stuck working for these souless, conservative shitholes. i've also been learning a skill set at my current job that could lead to good independent contracting opportunities for me in a difficult and highly specialized testing role for software, although i'm not willing to travel so might be unrealistic unless austin's tech bed is big enough too support it. i also earlier this year threw my hat in the independent web consulting ring, southsides skateparks web site was one of the ones i built but i quickly figured out that it wasn't for me and decided to try something else.

so your assuption about me only talking about and not being about it is just wrong. i'm not that kind of person but i'd assume that your surronded by them considering that you were so quick to make that assuption that someone you don't know is like that.

these corporations and there shitty practices are what's ruining this country and i'm doing everything within reason that doesn't distract from my higher family obligations to do what i can to minimize my dependence on them and politically to go agaisnt them by supporting candidates like barack who have tax policies (example below) that address the very problems of outsourcing and mergers and acquisitions that i'm concerned about.

Cutting Corporate Tax Rates for Firms that Create Jobs in America. Barack Obama will repeal tax
breaks and loopholes that reward corporations that retain their earnings overseas, and will use those savings
to lower corporate tax rates for companies that expand or start operations in the United States.

http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/taxes/Factsheet_Tax_Plan_FINAL.pdf



not everyone who talks about politics is a whiner, sorry to disappoint you

[cheep]

my wife and i have developed a business plan for a retail shop we are planning to open in austin when we move there in the next year. we've been approved for funding because she busted her ass for 6 months putting together a great business plan after i had encouraged her to do so. the whole point is to get her out of the corporate world first because her salary is half mine and my skills are in much higher demand and come with jobs with great benifits which we need because we have a child.

we are moving to austin in an effort for me to be able to transition my job away from the conservative corporate shitholes that i've worked for here in Houston like Stewart Title, in hopes of finding more liberal minded corporations\start ups to work for in Austin. i actually told my wife i'd only be willing to have a child if she'd be willing to move to austin because i didn't want to get stuck working for these souless, conservative shitholes. i've also been learning a skill set at my current job that could lead to good independent contracting opportunities for me in a difficult and highly specialized testing role for software, although i'm not willing to travel so might be unrealistic unless austin's tech bed is big enough too support it. i also earlier this year threw my hat in the independent web consulting ring, southsides skateparks web site was one of the ones i built but i quickly figured out that it wasn't for me and decided to try something else.

so your assuption about me only talking about and not being about it is just wrong. i'm not that kind of person but i'd assume that your surronded by them considering that you were so quick to make that assuption that someone you don't know is like that.

these corporations and there shitty practices are what's ruining this country and i'm doing everything within reason that doesn't distract from my higher family obligations to do what i can to minimize my dependence on them and politically to go agaisnt them by supporting candidates like barack who have tax policies (example below) that address the very problems of outsourcing and mergers and acquisitions that i'm concerned about.

Expand Quote

Cutting Corporate Tax Rates for Firms that Create Jobs in America. Barack Obama will repeal tax
breaks and loopholes that reward corporations that retain their earnings overseas, and will use those savings
to lower corporate tax rates for companies that expand or start operations in the United States.

[close]

http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/taxes/Factsheet_Tax_Plan_FINAL.pdf



not everyone who talks about politics is a whiner, sorry to disappoint you

now see... if i had know that, or if you had said something to the effect that you were working to get yourself into that position, id have never posted what i did.  respect on having the plan, and i hope you can make it happen.

[Sleazy]

also, the company that i was "bitching about" earlier was a very progressive company that built an indoor park where that had pool tables, ping pong tables, dart boards and wooden decks with swings on them on the top floor of the building for the employees too use to unwind during the day. they provided all kinds of snacks for the employees, had a coffe bar with a designer coffe machine on each floor and had antique ice cream and pop corn machines that they kept stocked and everything was free. they had the office laid out so that cubes were up against the windows with low walls and lots of space and offices were on the interior with french windows in a way that allowed all employees to have natural light, not just the people with offices. they had fitness contest too encourage people to get healthier. they were very much an employee first progressive type company like google, eventhough the were corporate. but a larger fish came along and swallowed them up because a few corrupt assholes where willing to whore out their coworkers for their own gain. that shit should be against the law, it's just rediculous.

it's something i take personal issue with and i'll definitely step to any of those assholes if i am ever lucky enough see them valeting their porches at the same restaraunt i happen to be at.

the same thing recently happend at my wifes company and her boss who had only been there for 6 months made somewhere around 1/2 a million dollars and still refused to give her a raise eventhough he knew the company was being sold and it wouldn't have impacted him in anyway. and because of this asshole and the rest of the C managers, all the employees who actually do all the work ended up loosing their jobs.

it's horrible, it's disgusting and it needs to be stopped and the only thing that will stop it is making this kind of behavior illegal and putting these C managers in jail for trying to pull this kind of shit.

[able]

I haven't really been keeping up with this thread but I saw this video and figured I'd drop it off here.

It's Sarah Palin practically endorsing Obama before she was picked for the VP.

[spungo]

DUDE so bummed that McCain is taking over Obama in the polls.  Although I know polls are not really indicative of final results it's still disheartening to think that Americans are gonna elect him.  I wonder about the sanity of middle america.  I wonder what it's like to live there, like Missouri or Nebraska or something.  Any pals live out there and want to give me some real insight as to what it's like to live in a town of total ignorant people?  I mean I lived in Baton Rouge most of my life, I don't anymore, but even there it can be sort of liberal with the college there and everything.  Maybe I'm just good at shielding myself from people whose views are so polar opposite from mine.

[Dr Newton]

DUDE so bummed that McCain is taking over Obama in the polls.  Although I know polls are not really indicative of final results it's still disheartening to think that Americans are gonna elect him.  I wonder about the sanity of middle america.  I wonder what it's like to live there, like Missouri or Nebraska or something.  Any pals live out there and want to give me some real insight as to what it's like to live in a town of total ignorant people?  I mean I lived in Baton Rouge most of my life, I don't anymore, but even there it can be sort of liberal with the college there and everything.  Maybe I'm just good at shielding myself from people whose views are so polar opposite from mine.

See, the fundamental problem with the members of this board is basically cast into plain site with posts like this one. "I can't understand! They are ignorant!" Is it not ironic that you consider others to be ignorant, yet it's yourself who cannot grasp the basic concepts of another argument? One of the fundamentals of logical argument is understanding and refuting the other side's positions. Can you even define the word ignorant?

[spungo]

I know who ignorant people are.  People who align themselves with McCain when McCain's campaign manager himself says, "The election is not about issues, it's about personalities."  People who would vote for a candidate because they would rather have a beer with x rather than y candidate is an ignorant way to vote because they dont CHOOSE to find about the issues. 

[marty.]

DUDE so bummed that McCain is taking over Obama in the polls.  Although I know polls are not really indicative of final results it's still disheartening to think that Americans are gonna elect him.  I wonder about the sanity of middle america.  I wonder what it's like to live there, like Missouri or Nebraska or something.  Any pals live out there and want to give me some real insight as to what it's like to live in a town of total ignorant people?  I mean I lived in Baton Rouge most of my life, I don't anymore, but even there it can be sort of liberal with the college there and everything.  Maybe I'm just good at shielding myself from people whose views are so polar opposite from mine.

I grew up in a real white conservative republican rural area. Cornfields and trailer parks. I could go on for awhile with stories about it, but don't know how to put the bullshit into a short anecdote.
I guess one little thing to give you an idea of what it was like, every year for halloween a group of kids would dress up as klansmen, and they wouldn't get their asses kicked. Many teachers would openly endorse conservative candidates and issues. Lots of pickup trucks with confederate flags on them in the school parking lot, driven by dudes wearing cowboy boots. Fucking hated every second of it, but part of me wishes I still lived there just so I could see peoples reactions to the fact that a blackman might become president.

But now I live in the other extreme which is pretty annoying too. Literally half the houses in my neighborhood have either an obama sign out front or a prius in the driveway, and are way too proud about both. There's nothing wrong with either of those things, just peoples attitudes annoy me, reminds me of what I think san francisco is like, except I've never been so I dunno how apt the comparison is. I'm just gonna be glad when this september 11th anniversary is over, so I'll be able to walk the three blocks to the store without having to deal with the 9/11 truthers.

[brycickle]

DUDE so bummed that McCain is taking over Obama in the polls.  Although I know polls are not really indicative of final results it's still disheartening to think that Americans are gonna elect him.  I wonder about the sanity of middle america.  I wonder what it's like to live there, like Missouri or Nebraska or something.  Any pals live out there and want to give me some real insight as to what it's like to live in a town of total ignorant people?  I mean I lived in Baton Rouge most of my life, I don't anymore, but even there it can be sort of liberal with the college there and everything.  Maybe I'm just good at shielding myself from people whose views are so polar opposite from mine.

I live in Lincoln, NE.  I don't pay attention to the politics because I know everyone votes Repub.  The only thing you need to worry your pretty little head about is wether the Huskers won or not.  That can make or break a whole weekend depending on how the fans react.

[AsburyPark]

I know who ignorant people are.  People who align themselves with McCain when McCain's campaign manager himself says, "The election is not about issues, it's about personalities."  People who would vote for a candidate because they would rather have a beer with x rather than y candidate is an ignorant way to vote because they dont CHOOSE to find about the issues. 

Hari bol...

When you really think about it...

Most people aren't straight ignorant, just severely conditioned from birth to react or believe in a certain way given their race, location, sex, etc... It's up to the individual to break through the programming (or "maya" if you're krsna conscious). I used to shake my head in disbelief and wish great bodily harm on those "ignorant stereotypes here" during recent elections as I watched Bush and his neocons slither their way into power but it's just got to the point where I almost feel bad for these people now. No personal offense to anyone present doing so but it must suck to be that brainwashed that you would actually make an effort to elect somebody that is continuing the policies of Bush in any way what so ever.  

[spungo]

But even if they are conditioned, they are still uninformed, which is the definition of ignorant.

adjective
1.   lacking in knowledge or training; unlearned: an ignorant man.
2.   lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact: ignorant of quantum physics.
3.   uninformed; unaware.
4.   due to or showing lack of knowledge or training: an ignorant statement.

[Ronald Wilson Reagan]

Sorry, but no. The freest markets have the strongest econnomies, that is an irrefutable fact. No amount of Michael Moore movies will change that.

I am only going to cover this, because the rest is just dumb and won't lead anywhere.
First of all, it is obviously quite refutable. People have been refuting it for a while now, and there still is no solid consensus.

Now, I just want to point out the fact that you said the above quote, and then ask you if you know who was president when the stock market crashed in 1929. Who oversaw the greatest economic failure in the history of the United States of America? What were his economic policies?
Who was president during the ascension out of this period of economic hardship, and what were his policies?

Can anybody answer these? The answers are in EVERY U.S. History book to cover the issue. Not just Michael Moore movies.
I didn't quote an expert, or bring in theory. I talked about actual real events that occurred indisputably. I don't know what else to present to you besides historical instances where you are proven the opposite of correct in every sense of the word.

Obviously your mind is just closed to facts which dispute your very strongly held beliefs, this isn't an intellectual debate. Its a screaming match, and its dumb. READ what is written, and respond to that, don't just shoot back the same points over and over once they have been refuted. I'm done going back to what I said before.

Dagger- I consider Bush conservative economically in the sense that he did very little in terms of regulating the market. The bail outs and all of that made him seem... I don't know how to say it. Very pro corporate. He stacked the deck for large corporations so they would be allowed to run wild, and I guess that is where it came from. In my head conservative means allow corporations to run wild. Traditionally this has been done with Laisse Faire economic policies, which tended to help those already in power. Bush took it even further by not only letting corporations run wild, but also by bailing them out every time they got fucked up from going wild. Its not traditionally "conservative," but the meaning of political affiliations shifts over time, and now "conservative" seems to becoming synonymous with the Bush style pro-corporate agenda.


Rural people tend to feel less direct effects of government programs and still have to pay as much for them. The only thing they think can fuck with their way of life is some terrorist or other country blowing up the country. Hence, rural areas tend to be more  conservative. They also tend to feel more threatened by minorities because less minorities live in rural areas. Still. in this election, I don't even understand why, aside from being programmed like novella, anybody would vote McCain this election.

I'm not disheartened about polls. If its like this after the debates I'll be bummed. 

[crunk juice]

Nader/Gonzales '08

[able]

being a Obama supporter for a little over a year now has sure been an emotional rollercoaster for me. He was an underdog then he was neck and neck with Hillary. Next was the Rev Wright contraversy, the secret tape and Hillary not dropping out of the race. The Convention came and we weren't even sure if he'd get an endorcement by the Clintons. Now we've got McCain winning in the polls since he got that sexy librarian as a VP..... sigh!!!  I need a Zanax

[Sleazy]

But even if they are conditioned, they are still uninformed, which is the definition of ignorant.

adjective
1.   lacking in knowledge or training; unlearned: an ignorant man.
2.   lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact: ignorant of quantum physics.
3.   uninformed; unaware.
4.   due to or showing lack of knowledge or training: an ignorant statement.

i think part of the problem is people voting on behalf of polerizing social issues without considering anything else but the bigger problem in my eyes is education. lets face it, a lot of americans are just plain stupid. most would probably have a hard time understanding eletoral college vs popular vote. i think one of the biggest problems that needs to be addressed in the country besides corporate influence is education. in the US the poorer kids get such a shit education that when they become adults they aren't even capable of objectively analyzing issues. apart from all the obvious benifits of having a better educated population, i think having a smarter voting pool is definitely a big motive. we really need to provide a better education i the US. in the 8th grade i went to a public school in a small town in La and the only math class that was available was struggling with long form addition and subtraction. i can't even imagine how it's possible that 8th graders haven't learned the most basic math skill besides counting in 8 years. it was pathetic but it wasn't the kids fault, it was the systems.

[Dr Newton]

I know who ignorant people are.  People who align themselves with McCain when McCain's campaign manager himself says, "The election is not about issues, it's about personalities."  People who would vote for a candidate because they would rather have a beer with x rather than y candidate is an ignorant way to vote because they dont CHOOSE to find about the issues. 

But it's you that admits to being "uninformed" about conservative positions -- YOU are the one that is ignorant. Hell, it's ignorant to just assume that all McCain voters are voting on personalities.

[spungo]

I'm not ignorant about conservative positions.  I said they were opposite from mine.  I said I was ignorant on what it felt like to be surrounded by them. Dont put words in my mouth Newton, instead put a dick in yours.

[Sleazy]

Expand Quote

I know who ignorant people are.  People who align themselves with McCain when McCain's campaign manager himself says, "The election is not about issues, it's about personalities."  People who would vote for a candidate because they would rather have a beer with x rather than y candidate is an ignorant way to vote because they dont CHOOSE to find about the issues. 

[close]

But it's you that admits to being "uninformed" about conservative positions -- YOU are the one that is ignorant. Hell, it's ignorant to just assume that all McCain voters are voting on personalities.

of course they aren't all uniformed but it's hard to deny that a big part of their base is "uniformed" about economic issues and foriegn policy if you define "uniformed" as voting against your own interest and not being able to articulate your stance.

the rich base of the republican party are certainly informed as they party caters too them. no mystery there.

for the non-rich voters you have group that only cares about polerizing social issues (evangelicals and rednecks) and whether it's a matter of political priority for these people or actual ignorance, the fact that they continually vote against their own economic interest, that they don't give coherent well thought out answers about policy and don't seem to notice that they are being taken advantage of by the republican party who never changes any of the policies surronding these social issues that they care so much about makes that base seem uninformed. they also seem to be illogical because they are motivated by bigotry on a lot of their stances which is something that you can't talk about these days and when asked about these issues they of course have a hard time articulating their stance because it's not PC to talk about their motives. all of this makes them seem uniformed.

so then it becomes a situation where even if they are informed, how's anyone too know? i'd guess that they are actually uninformed based on my time in small towns though, eventhough my post is diplomatically giving them the benifit of the doubt.

[Al Bania]

it was pathetic but it wasn't the kids fault, it was the systems.

pretty much agree with you,  but what about the parent's role in education?  
granted uneducated parents tend to raise uneducated kids, but I'm just saying.

[biggums mcgee]

thanks to all of you in this thread, I've learned alot from most of you. gnars all around everyday, I might have even shot you one Newton.

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Nader/Gonzales '08

[close]

[Dr Newton]

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I know who ignorant people are.  People who align themselves with McCain when McCain's campaign manager himself says, "The election is not about issues, it's about personalities."  People who would vote for a candidate because they would rather have a beer with x rather than y candidate is an ignorant way to vote because they dont CHOOSE to find about the issues. 

[close]

But it's you that admits to being "uninformed" about conservative positions -- YOU are the one that is ignorant. Hell, it's ignorant to just assume that all McCain voters are voting on personalities.

[close]

of course they aren't all uniformed but it's hard to deny that a big part of their base is "uniformed" about economic issues and foriegn policy if you define "uniformed" as voting against your own interest and not being able to articulate your stance.

the rich base of the republican party are certainly informed as they party caters too them. no mystery there.

for the non-rich voters you have group that only cares about polerizing social issues (evangelicals and rednecks) and whether it's a matter of political priority for these people or actual ignorance, the fact that they continually vote against their own economic interest, that they don't give coherent well thought out answers about policy and don't seem to notice that they are being taken advantage of by the republican party who never changes any of the policies surronding these social issues that they care so much about makes that base seem uninformed. they also seem to be illogical because they are motivated by bigotry on a lot of their stances which is something that you can't talk about these days and when asked about these issues they of course have a hard time articulating their stance because it's not PC to talk about their motives. all of this makes them seem uniformed.

so then it becomes a situation where even if they are informed, how's anyone too know? i'd guess that they are actually uninformed based on my time in small towns though, eventhough my post is diplomatically giving them the benifit of the doubt.

I hate to break this to you, but a large portion of the DNC's voter base is uneducated, criminally active, and living off of the government.... are these people 'informed' somehow?

[biggums mcgee]

sorry, I take back that gnar.

[Dr Newton]

sorry, I take back that gnar.

No! Please stop! I cannot have my reputation on the SLAP message board dragged through the mud like this!

[biggums mcgee]

hey, keep up the good work my man

[Dr Newton]

To all of those claiming that Republicans are ignorant:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republican_Party_(United_States)#Voter_base

Self-identified Republicans are significantly more likely than Democrats to have 4-year college degrees. The trends for the years 1955 through 2004 are shown by gender in the graphs below

[Gatoraids]

Dr.Newton the majority of people who get welfare are white southern women in rural areas, places where people are most likely to vote republican.

[Sleazy]

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I know who ignorant people are.  People who align themselves with McCain when McCain's campaign manager himself says, "The election is not about issues, it's about personalities."  People who would vote for a candidate because they would rather have a beer with x rather than y candidate is an ignorant way to vote because they dont CHOOSE to find about the issues. 

[close]

But it's you that admits to being "uninformed" about conservative positions -- YOU are the one that is ignorant. Hell, it's ignorant to just assume that all McCain voters are voting on personalities.

[close]

of course they aren't all uniformed but it's hard to deny that a big part of their base is "uniformed" about economic issues and foriegn policy if you define "uniformed" as voting against your own interest and not being able to articulate your stance.

the rich base of the republican party are certainly informed as they party caters too them. no mystery there.

for the non-rich voters you have group that only cares about polerizing social issues (evangelicals and rednecks) and whether it's a matter of political priority for these people or actual ignorance, the fact that they continually vote against their own economic interest, that they don't give coherent well thought out answers about policy and don't seem to notice that they are being taken advantage of by the republican party who never changes any of the policies surronding these social issues that they care so much about makes that base seem uninformed. they also seem to be illogical because they are motivated by bigotry on a lot of their stances which is something that you can't talk about these days and when asked about these issues they of course have a hard time articulating their stance because it's not PC to talk about their motives. all of this makes them seem uniformed.

so then it becomes a situation where even if they are informed, how's anyone too know? i'd guess that they are actually uninformed based on my time in small towns though, eventhough my post is diplomatically giving them the benifit of the doubt.

[close]

I hate to break this to you, but a large portion of the DNC's voter base is uneducated, criminally active, and living off of the government.... are these people 'informed' somehow?

of course there are uninformed people on the democrate side and even more dangerous there are people who think they are informed but are simply just not smart enough to handle the issues they represent, like those pink bitches.

but when you look at each party, it's pretty quicly obvious that the republican side has a much larger base that votes on social issues and is low on the educaction\informed specturm when it comes to things like macro economics and foriegn policy.

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it was pathetic but it wasn't the kids fault, it was the systems.

[close]

pretty much agree with you,  but what about the parent's role in education?  
granted uneducated parents tend to raise uneducated kids, but I'm just saying.

that's a good point but in my case study, there was no alternative. they had kids at that school who had potential and who were intellectually curious, just like at any school but they didn't have any classes to take that'd allow them to learn. we need to provide a minimal education for all our citizens. kids need to finish school with a solid understand of elementary math (through trig\geo), an understanding of at least US history, basic reading, comprehension and grammar. and that's just not available.

if you look to europe, i've also attended public schools in australia and private european schools and education is miles ahead. i put a hurting on my college macro economics teacher with what i had learned in year 10 in australia. and the high school civic's teacher (civic's is where you learn economics at my school) who was a football coach, haha, oh lord, that fool told me i didn't need to come back to class after the first day because i "obviously know this stuff way better" than him.

i'm not running ahead of the curve, i just went to some good schools where the emphasis was on education and not on dick ridding the football team (pep o ralleys, seriously??? homecoming, prom, etc...). i was actually a medicore student in european schools but rocked the house in the US because i was so far ahead of the curve.

there's some internation kids that chat on here, i'm sure the can vouch for how pathetic public education tends to be in the us when compared to european schools, especially in the south. socializing good public schools pays for itself and this is something that china is fully aware of and currently kicking our ass at.

[NickDagger]

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I know who ignorant people are.  People who align themselves with McCain when McCain's campaign manager himself says, "The election is not about issues, it's about personalities."  People who would vote for a candidate because they would rather have a beer with x rather than y candidate is an ignorant way to vote because they dont CHOOSE to find about the issues. 

[close]

But it's you that admits to being "uninformed" about conservative positions -- YOU are the one that is ignorant. Hell, it's ignorant to just assume that all McCain voters are voting on personalities.

[close]

of course they aren't all uniformed but it's hard to deny that a big part of their base is "uniformed" about economic issues and foriegn policy if you define "uniformed" as voting against your own interest and not being able to articulate your stance.

the rich base of the republican party are certainly informed as they party caters too them. no mystery there.

for the non-rich voters you have group that only cares about polerizing social issues (evangelicals and rednecks) and whether it's a matter of political priority for these people or actual ignorance, the fact that they continually vote against their own economic interest, that they don't give coherent well thought out answers about policy and don't seem to notice that they are being taken advantage of by the republican party who never changes any of the policies surronding these social issues that they care so much about makes that base seem uninformed. they also seem to be illogical because they are motivated by bigotry on a lot of their stances which is something that you can't talk about these days and when asked about these issues they of course have a hard time articulating their stance because it's not PC to talk about their motives. all of this makes them seem uniformed.

so then it becomes a situation where even if they are informed, how's anyone too know? i'd guess that they are actually uninformed based on my time in small towns though, eventhough my post is diplomatically giving them the benifit of the doubt.

[close]

I hate to break this to you, but a large portion of the DNC's voter base is uneducated, criminally active, and living off of the government.... are these people 'informed' somehow?

Please stop posting.

[NickDagger]

Dagger- I consider Bush conservative economically in the sense that he did very little in terms of regulating the market. The bail outs and all of that made him seem... I don't know how to say it. Very pro corporate. He stacked the deck for large corporations so they would be allowed to run wild, and I guess that is where it came from. In my head conservative means allow corporations to run wild. Traditionally this has been done with Laisse Faire economic policies, which tended to help those already in power. Bush took it even further by not only letting corporations run wild, but also by bailing them out every time they got fucked up from going wild. Its not traditionally "conservative," but the meaning of political affiliations shifts over time, and now "conservative" seems to becoming synonymous with the Bush style pro-corporate agenda.

I reject very much the idea that Bush or Mccain are conservative, but I accept your description here, and it is what is accepted now in America as conservative. A shame.