Author Topic: Aurora shootings: an open discussion on the death penalty.  (Read 4580 times)

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Aurora shootings: an open discussion on the death penalty.
« on: April 01, 2013, 01:56:23 PM »
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/04/01/holmes-court-appearance-today/2041881/

The prosecution is seeking the death penalty against James Holmes. Personally, I've always been a little torn about capital punishment. On one hand, it seems barbaric, like we haven't risen high enough intellectually to figure out a better way to govern ourselves, and we still resort to stoning people to death as a form of justice. On the other hand, I'm can be a pretty vindictive person, and can subscribe to the thought of "That person shot and killed children, fuck him. Find a heavy rock and cast away.".

I don't know. As a whole, Slap has a much larger collective of life experiences than I do as a single person, so I'm interested in hearing different perspectives from as many people as possible.

frisco

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Re: Aurora shootings: an open discussion on the death penalty.
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2013, 02:12:12 PM »
Sometimes, it is totally justified. This is one of those times.

dillanharp

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Re: Aurora shootings: an open discussion on the death penalty.
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2013, 02:17:10 PM »
It's a pretty flawed system. I back it, it extreme cases such as this. What I don't back however is this asshole is going to sit on deathrow for years, sucking up tax payer money.

ChronicBluntSlider

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Re: Aurora shootings: an open discussion on the death penalty.
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2013, 02:19:07 PM »
Having no idea how it is to have a family member/friend murdered, I could see how they'd be for it, but I'm against it. I don't think anybody's having a great time in solitary confinement. It seems a lot of times they dwell on it and end up becoming remorseful. And life imprisonment is cheaper.

And in no way should the death penalty be applied on convictions based on circumstantial evidence. Anybody know anything about that project at Stanford law? They've done some great work.

edit:its called the innocence project. Check em out.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2013, 02:23:45 PM by ChronicBluntSlider »

skateboardnorth

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Re: Aurora shootings: an open discussion on the death penalty.
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2013, 02:59:25 PM »
I think people like this(100% guilty of a brutal crime) should be kept for life in solitary, with no TV, no computer and no contact with the outside world.  They should be fed just enough to survive and should not be treated with any sort of respect.  This will force them to go through pain and suffering similar to what they have caused to others.  It sounds harsh, but someone like this guy planned to hurt unsuspecting people like a true coward. 

steenz

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Re: Aurora shootings: an open discussion on the death penalty.
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2013, 03:51:59 PM »
eye for an eye

Lordata

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Re: Aurora shootings: an open discussion on the death penalty.
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2013, 03:53:11 PM »
I think people like this(100% guilty of a brutal crime) should be kept for life in solitary, with no TV, no computer and no contact with the outside world.� They should be fed just enough to survive and should not be treated with any sort of respect.� This will force them to go through pain and suffering similar to what they have caused to others.� It sounds harsh, but someone like this guy planned to hurt unsuspecting people like a true coward.�
100% agree. Life in prison is cheaper than the death penalty is, the death penalty causes a shortage of antiseptic drugs hospitals need, and in all reality, everybody dies, so how is that a punishment? better to rot in jail(solitary) being forced to re-live your fuck-ups.

grimcity

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Re: Aurora shootings: an open discussion on the death penalty.
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2013, 05:05:27 PM »
On an emotional level, for it... but I can't support it philosophically since the system itself has had/probably has innocent people on it, and I don't think a government should have the right to kill its citizens.

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Re: Aurora shootings: an open discussion on the death penalty.
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2013, 05:19:25 PM »
Yeah death penalty in cases where the offenders' guilt has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, but, only if they are televised or held publicly. It's not right to not share...nah sayin?
This isn't the 90's anymore. ESPN, Nike and Mountain Dew are Big Brother, Es and beer. Time to slip into some comfy New Balances and head towards old age.

dillanharp

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Re: Aurora shootings: an open discussion on the death penalty.
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2013, 05:39:50 PM »
Maybe I'm missing something, but could someone please explain to me how providing food, shelter, medical care etc is less expensive than executing someone? And again, I really only approve of it in extreme cases, such as this James Holmes guy.

Tale Crab

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Re: Aurora shootings: an open discussion on the death penalty.
« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2013, 05:51:26 PM »
What good will it do?

Monty Burns

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Re: Aurora shootings: an open discussion on the death penalty.
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2013, 05:54:20 PM »
Killing somebody because he killed somebody when its illegal to kill somebody makes no sense ( weird sentence )

Anyways , Id be more for the death penatly if it was on the spot , say cops bust in and theres some fucker with 3 dead children in the room and hes raping a kid when they break in . I mean I have no problem if the cops just shot him dead there

But the way it works in the legal system is that they arrest him , then there is a trail , maybe a retrail , then hes in jail , and then he goes up to be exacuted .  This takes months and years . Its not current and then we kill them .

As for punishment , I think isolation and being locked up for the rest of your life is prob worse then being killed

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Re: Aurora shootings: an open discussion on the death penalty.
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2013, 05:57:02 PM »

papasmurfsdog

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Re: Aurora shootings: an open discussion on the death penalty.
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2013, 06:05:02 PM »
eye for an eye

You mean an eye for 12 eyes? I'm all for locking the guy up if that entails Joe Pesci heading to his cell every morning with a bat and a nail in it, plus the only sustenance he gets is at the tail end of a human centipede.

yukaton

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Re: Aurora shootings: an open discussion on the death penalty.
« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2013, 06:20:22 PM »
we should just recreate Australia on one uninhabited of the islands. Dump them all there and let them kill each other, if they learn to survive on the island great then they get to have a lifetime imprisonment. It may be cheaper and could make for good tv.

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Re: Aurora shootings: an open discussion on the death penalty.
« Reply #15 on: April 01, 2013, 07:10:17 PM »
we should just recreate Australia on one uninhabited of the islands. Dump them all there and let them kill each other, if they learn to survive on the island great then they get to have a lifetime imprisonment. It may be cheaper and could make for good tv.

 You and the D00D have turned this thread into a horrible head-on-collision between a short bus full of regular kids and a van full of paraplegics.



Hate_Then_Skate

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Re: Aurora shootings: an open discussion on the death penalty.
« Reply #16 on: April 01, 2013, 07:23:52 PM »
Expand Quote
we should just recreate Australia on one uninhabited of the islands. Dump them all there and let them kill each other, if they learn to survive on the island great then they get to have a lifetime imprisonment. It may be cheaper and could make for good tv.
[close]


Immediately what I thought of too. 
This isn't the 90's anymore. ESPN, Nike and Mountain Dew are Big Brother, Es and beer. Time to slip into some comfy New Balances and head towards old age.

Monty Burns

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Re: Aurora shootings: an open discussion on the death penalty.
« Reply #17 on: April 01, 2013, 07:31:23 PM »
I forgot to add

Deathpenalty also adds the element of executing innocent men . I belive I read that the reason England / UK canceld their deathpenalty is partly because the last person to get hanged was innocent


KOOL MIKE

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Re: Aurora shootings: an open discussion on the death penalty.
« Reply #18 on: April 01, 2013, 07:46:55 PM »
I forgot to add

Deathpenalty also adds the element of executing innocent men . I belive I read that the reason England / UK canceld their deathpenalty is partly because the last person to get hanged was innocent



sought of off topic but england and all these other places just seem so much more sensible and down to earth compared to the US

foureyedjim

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Re: Aurora shootings: an open discussion on the death penalty.
« Reply #19 on: April 01, 2013, 07:48:28 PM »

As for punishment , I think isolation and being locked up for the rest of your life is prob worse then being killed

Isolation can drive a man crazy
I'm all for it...

KOOL MIKE

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Re: Aurora shootings: an open discussion on the death penalty.
« Reply #20 on: April 01, 2013, 08:14:17 PM »
Expand Quote

As for punishment , I think isolation and being locked up for the rest of your life is prob worse then being killed
[close]

Isolation can drive a man crazy
I'm all for it...

and you know this mothrfucker is already crazy as fuck so he would be double crazy

NickDagger

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Re: Aurora shootings: an open discussion on the death penalty.
« Reply #21 on: April 01, 2013, 08:23:05 PM »
Maybe I'm missing something, but could someone please explain to me how providing food, shelter, medical care etc is less expensive than executing someone? And again, I really only approve of it in extreme cases, such as this James Holmes guy.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs-death-penalty
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dillanharp

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Re: Aurora shootings: an open discussion on the death penalty.
« Reply #22 on: April 01, 2013, 08:25:24 PM »
Killing somebody because he killed somebody when its illegal to kill somebody makes no sense ( weird sentence )

Anyways , Id be more for the death penatly if it was on the spot , say cops bust in and theres some fucker with 3 dead children in the room and hes raping a kid when they break in . I mean I have no problem if the cops just shot him dead there

But the way it works in the legal system is that they arrest him , then there is a trail , maybe a retrail , then hes in jail , and then he goes up to be exacuted .  This takes months and years . Its not current and then we kill them .

As for punishment , I think isolation and being locked up for the rest of your life is prob worse then being killed

This.

Honestly though, would you rather have James Holmes living out the rest of his days, healthy, fed, reading all the books he wanted, while taxpayers foot the bill, or put a bullet in his head and be done with it?

Expand Quote
Maybe I'm missing something, but could someone please explain to me how providing food, shelter, medical care etc is less expensive than executing someone? And again, I really only approve of it in extreme cases, such as this James Holmes guy.
[close]

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs-death-penalty

Interesting. The state pays for way too much of that.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2013, 08:34:53 PM by Nallid »

4LOM

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Re: Aurora shootings: an open discussion on the death penalty.
« Reply #23 on: April 01, 2013, 09:28:16 PM »
Innocent electricians, construction workers, and drivers get killed all the time. But we don't ban electricity, construction, or driving. Why think innocent people dying from death penalty is enough to justify not having it?

Monty Burns

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Re: Aurora shootings: an open discussion on the death penalty.
« Reply #24 on: April 01, 2013, 09:43:55 PM »
Innocent electricians, construction workers, and drivers get killed all the time. But we don't ban electricity, construction, or driving. Why think innocent people dying from death penalty is enough to justify not having it?

All deaths result of Elecricity , construction and driving are accidents . The ones where people are run over , electrecuted or pushed off a construction site on purpose is murder which is still illegal

The deathpenelties only purpose is to kill , there is no other function . Construction Electricity and cars have other uses and deaths are unfortunnate side effect of the purpose

no offence but this is one of the worst comparences ive ever heard

4LOM

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Re: Aurora shootings: an open discussion on the death penalty.
« Reply #25 on: April 01, 2013, 10:01:10 PM »

All deaths result of Elecricity , construction and driving are accidents . The ones where people are run over , electrecuted or pushed off a construction site on purpose is murder which is still illegal

The deathpenelties only purpose is to kill , there is no other function . Construction Electricity and cars have other uses and deaths are unfortunnate side effect of the purpose

no offence but this is one of the worst comparences ive ever heard

Construction is a purposeful activity where we can foresee that innocent people will die.
The death penalty is a purposeful activity where we foresee that innocent people die.

If we have no qualms with the former, why the latter?

The purposes are different, but it's not that the death penalty kills innocent people on purpose. Killing isn't even the purpose of the death penalty, justice is; we wouldn't kill if we didn't think justice was being served.


oyolar

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Re: Aurora shootings: an open discussion on the death penalty.
« Reply #26 on: April 01, 2013, 10:19:43 PM »
Killing somebody because he killed somebody when its illegal to kill somebody makes no sense ( weird sentence )

As for punishment , I think isolation and being locked up for the rest of your life is prob worse then being killed

Eh, Monty, this isn't the best logic either.  It's like saying, "Imprisoning someone because they imprisoned someone when its illegal to imprison someone make no sense." But most wouldn't make that argument. Locke made a simple way around this: by having a death penalty, we are stating that life is so sacred that the only crime worthy of losing one's life is killing other people.  By infringing on an individual's right to live, one has forfeited his right to live.

As for the second part, is that worse for him?  Psychopaths can't feel empathy or sympathy for other people, so I wonder how many (mass) murders or sadistic killers will sit in their cell or in isolation and actually regret their actions.  If they're mentally or have been socialized to be incapable of recognizing other people's emotions and comprehending the true extent/nature of their actions, they basically get put in a cell and (maybe) feel bad that they got caught.

Then there are numerous discussions on the symbolic role and importance that the death penalty has in society: execution as catharsis, as (re)affirmation of the utility and sovereignty of the law (Foucault talks about this in Discipline and Punish)

I'm not sure where I stand in the debate exactly because I feel like there's a deeper layer under both sides that could make a good argument for either side.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2013, 10:46:43 PM by oyolar »

Monty Burns

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Re: Aurora shootings: an open discussion on the death penalty.
« Reply #27 on: April 01, 2013, 10:39:42 PM »
Expand Quote

All deaths result of Elecricity , construction and driving are accidents . The ones where people are run over , electrecuted or pushed off a construction site on purpose is murder which is still illegal

The deathpenelties only purpose is to kill , there is no other function . Construction Electricity and cars have other uses and deaths are unfortunnate side effect of the purpose

no offence but this is one of the worst comparences ive ever heard
[close]

Construction is a purposeful activity where we can foresee that innocent people will die.
The death penalty is a purposeful activity where we foresee that innocent people die.

If we have no qualms with the former, why the latter?

The purposes are different, but it's not that the death penalty kills innocent people on purpose. Killing isn't even the purpose of the death penalty, justice is; we wouldn't kill if we didn't think justice was being served.

How can anybody be guilty or innocent in construction ? its a job not a legal thing where you can be guilty or innocent . Besides since the start of construction improvments have been made to safety and regulations . The aim is always 0 deaths on a construction site and while deaths do accure its human error unless somebody pushes the other

While its almost imposible to stop construction since we need it . We can stop the death penatly with pretty much no consequenses .

The death penalty is decided by people , I think its wrong for a jury or a judge to decide who lives and dies . I would also argue that the death penalty is more of a attempt of  deterence then justice . How can so many other countries have justice without the death penalty ?

And Oyolar , I guess i kinda see some of your points

forgot to add working as a electrician , driver or working construction is all vouluntary , nobody is really signing up for being on death row
« Last Edit: April 01, 2013, 10:52:51 PM by Monty Burns »

4LOM

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Re: Aurora shootings: an open discussion on the death penalty.
« Reply #28 on: April 01, 2013, 10:48:25 PM »
It's like saying, "Imprisoning someone because they imprisoned someone when its illegal to imprison someone make no sense." But most wouldn't make that argument. Locke made a simple way around this: by having a death penalty, we are stating that life is so sacred that the only crime worthy of losing one's life is killing other people. ? Locke made this argument. ? By infringing on an individual's right to live, one has forfeited his right to live.


I think his point is the paradox of punishment - we ought to do (kill) what we ought not to do (kill).
The difference is that the wrongdoer deserves it, the victim did not.


And if a right is inalienable (is that in Locke?) then how can it be forfeited?


Psychopaths can't feel empathy or sympathy for other people, so I wonder how many (mass) murders or sadistic killers will sit in their cell or in isolation and actually regret their actions. ? If they're mentally or have been socialized to be incapable of recognizing other people's emotions and comprehending the true extent/nature of their actions, they basically get put in a cell and feel bad they go caught.

Are such people morally responsible for their actions?

Empathy/sympathy seems to be a part of being a moral agent.
So, if you don't have it, you're not a moral agent.
If you're not a moral agent, you're not morally responsible for your actions.
If you're not morally responible, you can't be justly punished.

So, we can't justly punish people that lack sympathy.


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Re: Aurora shootings: an open discussion on the death penalty.
« Reply #29 on: April 01, 2013, 11:05:22 PM »
they still use the guillotine in austria