Security guard beaten at SF Black Rock

[rapscallion]

Krux Truck : 1
Dan Jansen : 0

Whoa dude, cool it.

[Hevonen]

Damn, did not expect this. Let alone 6-6 tie. Either the footage shows things in a much different light or he completely lucked out on the jury. If it's the former then he should be pretty safe from a re-trial right?

Can you also get sentenced to jail from a civil trial or is that just for money?

[sms_b]

So if the security guard pushed over one of the skaters and that skater fell backwards and smacked their head, causing swelling in the brain that left doctors no choice but to cut away a portion of the skull to stop the swelling, y'all actually think the security guard would have faced similar charges and stood trial?



 

[breakingthewaves]

Damn, did not expect this. Let alone 6-6 tie. Either the footage shows things in a much different light or he completely lucked out on the jury. If it's the former then he should be pretty safe from a re-trial right?

Can you also get sentenced to jail from a civil trial or is that just for money?

just money or assets. you are basically being sued. the other thing about a civil case is that they are less stringent than criminal cases and sometimes evidence can be brought in that wasn't permitted in the criminal case.

i don't think they will try this again. maybe this is what's getting settled on the may 13 date. this was a heat of the moment incident with tragic results. we spent a lot of pages talking about what was seen in the security video and i don't think we reached any clear consensus on what happened. to me that's telling. the security camera footage is greasy, but it's complete. so i would hazard a total guess that these other videos didn't offer anything really compelling.

the prosecution would want to argue this differently next time as 6-6 leaves huge room for improvement. there was some talk of evidence of 911 calls the previous day (reporting skateboarders) that made the prosecution look like they were grasping for straws.

freedom of information request for the transcripts? nobody involved will want that other angle to see the light of day.

 

[Suave]

[breakingthewaves]

So if the security guard pushed over one of the skaters and that skater fell backwards and smacked their head, causing swelling in the brain that left doctors no choice but to cut away a portion of the skull to stop the swelling, y'all actually think the security guard would have faced similar charges and stood trial?

if it was 7 security guards on one skater and it happened i'd like to see some charges

[Sloppy Krooks]

Like somone on here said earlier, if you now you not supposed to be here, just walk away and come back later. Lets be real about this shit, we often damage other peoples property. In reality, we wouldnt like it either if someone came to our shit to fuck it all up.

Let’s be honest and admit skaters in the street often act like scooter kids in the park, acting like they own the place, zipping around, not looking, and getting in peoples way.

[tortfeasor]

don't want to speculate but want to answer a few things--

in a hung jury the state has the option to retry the criminal case. its expensive and rare.  what i have seen after hung juries are no contest or Alfred pleas ("look i'm not saying i'm guilty i'm saying you have enough evidence to convict me") on an amended lesser included offense, with a time served component. its just as likely the gov could drop it entirely on may 13 and move on to the next fight.   

a civil case is for monetary damages, you don't go to jail if you can't pay.  we don't have debters prison in america. the action is not not brought by the state its brought by the injured party. damages would include past present and future medical treatment, as well as lost earning capacity. its a lower standard than criminal (beyond a reasonable doubt v. preponderance of the evidence).  However, you cant bleed a stone.  Could they win a huge monetary victory against Mr. Vieria -- absolutely. but it would only be empiric. the lien on Mr. Jensen's medical care is most likely well over any thing jessie has in liquid or any assets he presently owns.  it really wouldnt make sense unless it was for revenge and most civil attorneys don't take revenge cases.


ill happily answer general questions.

[shit_for_brains]

don't want to speculate but want to answer a few things--

in a hung jury the state has the option to retry the criminal case. its expensive and rare.  what i have seen after hung juries are no contest or Alfred pleas ("look i'm not saying i'm guilty i'm saying you have enough evidence to convict me") on an amended lesser included offense, with a time served component. its just as likely the gov could drop it entirely on may 13 and move on to the next fight.   

a civil case is for monetary damages, you don't go to jail if you can't pay.  we don't have debters prison in america. the action is not not brought by the state its brought by the injured party. damages would include past present and future medical treatment, as well as lost earning capacity. its a lower standard than criminal (beyond a reasonable doubt v. preponderance of the evidence).  However, you cant bleed a stone.  Could they win a huge monetary victory against Mr. Vieria -- absolutely. but it would only be empiric. the lien on Mr. Jensen's medical care is most likely well over any thing jessie has in liquid or any assets he presently owns.  it really wouldnt make sense unless it was for revenge and most civil attorneys don't take revenge cases.


ill happily answer general questions.

Disappointing to hear for reasons unrelated to this.

[Get the strap]

don't want to speculate but want to answer a few things--

in a hung jury the state has the option to retry the criminal case. its expensive and rare.  what i have seen after hung juries are no contest or Alfred pleas ("look i'm not saying i'm guilty i'm saying you have enough evidence to convict me") on an amended lesser included offense, with a time served component. its just as likely the gov could drop it entirely on may 13 and move on to the next fight.   

a civil case is for monetary damages, you don't go to jail if you can't pay.  we don't have debters prison in america. the action is not not brought by the state its brought by the injured party. damages would include past present and future medical treatment, as well as lost earning capacity. its a lower standard than criminal (beyond a reasonable doubt v. preponderance of the evidence).  However, you cant bleed a stone.  Could they win a huge monetary victory against Mr. Vieria -- absolutely. but it would only be empiric. the lien on Mr. Jensen's medical care is most likely well over any thing jessie has in liquid or any assets he presently owns.  it really wouldnt make sense unless it was for revenge and most civil attorneys don't take revenge cases.


ill happily answer general questions.

What do you think about the "self defense against a security guard?" "Defending yourself while trespassing against security" ? That's what Vieira's lawyer was telling the press so I'd assume that was the main argument in court.

Couple things I thought about: The picture with Jensen out of surgery, his eyes, nose, and mouth don't look bruised or swollen, so maybe he wasn't even hit by the skaters, or was softly hit and it didn't bruise...thus the argument his injury was caused by the fall and not the skaters?

The other thing is didn't Love Park or other plazas have undercover cops posing as people or security etc? You could maybe see that in the streets. Cops going undercover as security, maybe.

[Abyss1]

Damn, did not expect this. Let alone 6-6 tie. Either the footage shows things in a much different light or he completely lucked out on the jury. If it's the former then he should be pretty safe from a re-trial right?

Can you also get sentenced to jail from a civil trial or is that just for money?

Totally expected this when after someone posted that the trial was done and the jury was deliberating.  After a day of no verdict It's kind of clear the issue is too complicated to blame a particular party.  Also sounds like the defense lawyer did his job too

[Suave]

Expand Quote

don't want to speculate but want to answer a few things--

in a hung jury the state has the option to retry the criminal case. its expensive and rare.  what i have seen after hung juries are no contest or Alfred pleas ("look i'm not saying i'm guilty i'm saying you have enough evidence to convict me") on an amended lesser included offense, with a time served component. its just as likely the gov could drop it entirely on may 13 and move on to the next fight.   

a civil case is for monetary damages, you don't go to jail if you can't pay.  we don't have debters prison in america. the action is not not brought by the state its brought by the injured party. damages would include past present and future medical treatment, as well as lost earning capacity. its a lower standard than criminal (beyond a reasonable doubt v. preponderance of the evidence).  However, you cant bleed a stone.  Could they win a huge monetary victory against Mr. Vieria -- absolutely. but it would only be empiric. the lien on Mr. Jensen's medical care is most likely well over any thing jessie has in liquid or any assets he presently owns.  it really wouldnt make sense unless it was for revenge and most civil attorneys don't take revenge cases.


ill happily answer general questions.

[close]

What do you think about the "self defense against a security guard?" "Defending yourself while trespassing against security" ? That's what Vieira's lawyer was telling the press so I'd assume that was the main argument in court.

Couple things I thought about: The picture with Jensen out of surgery, his eyes, nose, and mouth don't look bruised or swollen, so maybe he wasn't even hit by the skaters, or was softly hit and it didn't bruise...thus the argument his injury was caused by the fall and not the skaters?

The other thing is didn't Love Park or other plazas have undercover cops posing as people or security etc? You could maybe see that in the streets. Cops going undercover as security, maybe.

i'm a doctor not a lawyer dammit but one time at the old Union Square in SF, i was yoked up by undercover cops in Harley Davidson shirts so there is a precedent.

[tortfeasor]

Expand Quote

don't want to speculate but want to answer a few things--

in a hung jury the state has the option to retry the criminal case. its expensive and rare.  what i have seen after hung juries are no contest or Alfred pleas ("look i'm not saying i'm guilty i'm saying you have enough evidence to convict me") on an amended lesser included offense, with a time served component. its just as likely the gov could drop it entirely on may 13 and move on to the next fight.   

a civil case is for monetary damages, you don't go to jail if you can't pay.  we don't have debters prison in america. the action is not not brought by the state its brought by the injured party. damages would include past present and future medical treatment, as well as lost earning capacity. its a lower standard than criminal (beyond a reasonable doubt v. preponderance of the evidence).  However, you cant bleed a stone.  Could they win a huge monetary victory against Mr. Vieria -- absolutely. but it would only be empiric. the lien on Mr. Jensen's medical care is most likely well over any thing jessie has in liquid or any assets he presently owns.  it really wouldnt make sense unless it was for revenge and most civil attorneys don't take revenge cases.


ill happily answer general questions.

[close]

What do you think about the "self defense against a security guard?" "Defending yourself while trespassing against security" ? That's what Vieira's lawyer was telling the press so I'd assume that was the main argument in court.

sorry for a non-answer-- every case is different and has its own fact patterns.  there is no one size fits all.  I will say what happens in the courtroom is very different than the way the press puts things out. you cant really understand a case or the actual evidence unless you are there.

[FS-OverKOOK]

Expand Quote

don't want to speculate but want to answer a few things--

in a hung jury the state has the option to retry the criminal case. its expensive and rare.  what i have seen after hung juries are no contest or Alfred pleas ("look i'm not saying i'm guilty i'm saying you have enough evidence to convict me") on an amended lesser included offense, with a time served component. its just as likely the gov could drop it entirely on may 13 and move on to the next fight.   

a civil case is for monetary damages, you don't go to jail if you can't pay.  we don't have debters prison in america. the action is not not brought by the state its brought by the injured party. damages would include past present and future medical treatment, as well as lost earning capacity. its a lower standard than criminal (beyond a reasonable doubt v. preponderance of the evidence).  However, you cant bleed a stone.  Could they win a huge monetary victory against Mr. Vieria -- absolutely. but it would only be empiric. the lien on Mr. Jensen's medical care is most likely well over any thing jessie has in liquid or any assets he presently owns.  it really wouldnt make sense unless it was for revenge and most civil attorneys don't take revenge cases.


ill happily answer general questions.

[close]

What do you think about the "self defense against a security guard?" "Defending yourself while trespassing against security" ? That's what Vieira's lawyer was telling the press so I'd assume that was the main argument in court.

Couple things I thought about: The picture with Jensen out of surgery, his eyes, nose, and mouth don't look bruised or swollen, so maybe he wasn't even hit by the skaters, or was softly hit and it didn't bruise...thus the argument his injury was caused by the fall and not the skaters?

The other thing is didn't Love Park or other plazas have undercover cops posing as people or security etc? You could maybe see that in the streets. Cops going undercover as security, maybe.

unless you're armed security inside a bank I don't think you're really expected to "do anything" except ask them to leave and then call the police. This was trespassing by the skaters, not a robbery/burglary attempt or anything that was putting innocent people in danger. Unlike police, the security does not have a duty to engage beyond asking them to leave. 

[formula420]

Lets hope the security guards nationwide see this and remember they are not cops and do not have the authority of cops. Shame he had to get his head fucked to learn this.

[Get the strap]

Expand Quote

Expand Quote

don't want to speculate but want to answer a few things--

in a hung jury the state has the option to retry the criminal case. its expensive and rare.  what i have seen after hung juries are no contest or Alfred pleas ("look i'm not saying i'm guilty i'm saying you have enough evidence to convict me") on an amended lesser included offense, with a time served component. its just as likely the gov could drop it entirely on may 13 and move on to the next fight.   

a civil case is for monetary damages, you don't go to jail if you can't pay.  we don't have debters prison in america. the action is not not brought by the state its brought by the injured party. damages would include past present and future medical treatment, as well as lost earning capacity. its a lower standard than criminal (beyond a reasonable doubt v. preponderance of the evidence).  However, you cant bleed a stone.  Could they win a huge monetary victory against Mr. Vieria -- absolutely. but it would only be empiric. the lien on Mr. Jensen's medical care is most likely well over any thing jessie has in liquid or any assets he presently owns.  it really wouldnt make sense unless it was for revenge and most civil attorneys don't take revenge cases.


ill happily answer general questions.

[close]

What do you think about the "self defense against a security guard?" "Defending yourself while trespassing against security" ? That's what Vieira's lawyer was telling the press so I'd assume that was the main argument in court.

Couple things I thought about: The picture with Jensen out of surgery, his eyes, nose, and mouth don't look bruised or swollen, so maybe he wasn't even hit by the skaters, or was softly hit and it didn't bruise...thus the argument his injury was caused by the fall and not the skaters?

The other thing is didn't Love Park or other plazas have undercover cops posing as people or security etc? You could maybe see that in the streets. Cops going undercover as security, maybe.

[close]

unless you're armed security inside a bank I don't think you're really expected to "do anything" except ask them to leave and then call the police. This was trespassing by the skaters, not a robbery/burglary attempt or anything that was putting innocent people in danger. Unlike police, the security does not have a duty to engage beyond asking them to leave.

Non-answer is still an answer, thanks @tortfeasor

Any type of 911 emergency, firefighter or paramedics or police, that's not the job of a security guard, whom probably signs and agrees to all this of what they can and can't do. I hope nothing else happens with this case, time to move on.

[nooky]

Lets hope the security guards nationwide see this and remember they are not cops and do not have the authority of cops. Shame he had to get his head fucked to learn this.

hey look, another painfully stupid take on this bullshit!

would you feel comfortable telling the family of the security guard this?

[papo]

Lets hope the security guards nationwide see this and remember they are not cops and do not have the authority of cops. Shame he had to get his head fucked to learn this.

Lets hope we dont get shot because dipshit Jesse decided to bash someones head in.

You sound crazy right now.

[halitosis]

I'm not saying this is the case at black rock....but some "security gaurds" are in fact real police officers.

Its the case at my job.    They don't look like uniformed police with their differing school campus uniforms...but they have guns and are indeed city police officers.

Good thing to know about at any spot when you think "they can't do anything".

[arrbee]

I'm not saying this is the case at black rock....but some "security gaurds" are in fact real police officers.

Its the case at my job.    They don't look like uniformed police with their differing school campus uniforms...but they have guns and are indeed city police officers.

Good thing to know about at any spot when you think "they can't do anything".

Can confirm, got ran out of a college, they chased us an pulled guns on us. Turned out this particular college campus police are state troopers assigned to the college.

That was probably the last time I talked shit to any security guard. It isn't worth it.

[breakingthewaves]

one for the legal experts here. in a case like this where i'm assuming there were no procedural problems (ie mistrial by hung jury), under what circumstances might the state try it again? for instance is it more likely in a murder trial? might they offer a more lenient deal to avoid a trial? and when would they drop the charges altogether?

[arrbee]

I'm not one of the legal experts and I have no data to back me up. But I am under the assumption it would be extremely hard to retry after a mistrial and it turn out any other way besides another mistrial or acquittal

[rapscallion]

My take on the uncut video, not looking good though...

THIS VIDEO IS PURE SPECULATION AND SHOULD NOT BE TAKEN AS FACT

https://www.liveleak.com/view?t=lYzA_1546919390

I spent over 15 minutes looking for this to brush up and it's deleted. Screw you man.

[tortfeasor]

one for the legal experts here. in a case like this where i'm assuming there were no procedural problems (ie mistrial by hung jury), under what circumstances might the state try it again? for instance is it more likely in a murder trial? might they offer a more lenient deal to avoid a trial? and when would they drop the charges altogether?

Pretty much any homicide or heinous sex crime they look into retrying. If they chose not to retry (or try the case at all which happens a lot in the lower courts) they file a nolle prosequi which dismisses the charges gives them right to bring it back out if something changes down the line (i.e. a new witness comes forward). there is also a DWOP (dismissed without prejudice) which has a similar effect but is requested by the defendant (could mean a million things like the Gov. does not want to file a nolle pros but cant get a necessary witness to come to court or on a drug case the evidence was suppressed).

Before i mentioned "no contest" (sometimes called nolo contedre)  and Alford pleas -- that's not a "guilty" plea but its an adjudication and firmly closes the book on a case.  both sides call this a victory.  Time served its pretty much self explanatory.  that's why you sometimes see sentences of "215 days HOC deemed served." You may also get offers of a guilty on an amended lesser included offence ("ABDW" is a lesser included of "ABDW causing serious bodily injury") with a split sentence (3 years State Prison, 18 months to serve, balance suspended over five years). 

when i was a student ADA in law school (i did not have the right temperament to make a career out it)  i never really got to see how the sausage was made for the superior court stuff but based on what ive experenced doing defense i would speculate that They drop the charges after consulting with the family of the alleged vic (who may not want to go through the stress of trial again), they don't have the resources or time to dedicate to another trial, and to some extent whether or not or they think the Defendant is a danger to the community or likely to reoffend.

 

[stevedave]

theres a case in SF that happened in 2016, where film producer Kevin Epps shot someone who was in his house.  He was arrested and charges were dropped pretty quickly.  TODAY they arrested him again for the same crime.  Obviously, something changed where they now feel as if they have a better reason to charge him and take him to trial on a murder charge.

[halitosis]

theres a case in SF that happened in 2016, where film producer Kevin Epps shot someone who was in his house.  He was arrested and charges were dropped pretty quickly.  TODAY they arrested him again for the same crime.  Obviously, something changed where they now feel as if they have a better reason to charge him and take him to trial on a murder charge.

Usually this ablity to retry and not have it be "double jeopardy" is based on malicious intent to hide evidence.   And it has to be compelling evidence.

It's not easy to retry a case....someone already mentioned how this doesn't stop a civil case from proceeding.

[stevedave]

Expand Quote

theres a case in SF that happened in 2016, where film producer Kevin Epps shot someone who was in his house.  He was arrested and charges were dropped pretty quickly.  TODAY they arrested him again for the same crime.  Obviously, something changed where they now feel as if they have a better reason to charge him and take him to trial on a murder charge.

[close]

Usually this ablity to retry and not have it be "double jeopardy" is based on malicious intent to hide evidence.   And it has to be compelling evidence.

It's not easy to retry a case....someone already mentioned how this doesn't stop a civil case from proceeding.

The Kevin Epps case that I was referencing isn't a retrial, as it never went to trial in the first place.  It's just taken them years to get what they must feel is sufficient enough to proceed with charges.  Wasn't trying to compare to Jesse's case, was just pointing out that it happened 2 years ago and he's finally being charged, as people were inquiring about legal stuff.

[Abyss1]

Expand Quote

one for the legal experts here. in a case like this where i'm assuming there were no procedural problems (ie mistrial by hung jury), under what circumstances might the state try it again? for instance is it more likely in a murder trial? might they offer a more lenient deal to avoid a trial? and when would they drop the charges altogether?

[close]

Pretty much any homicide or heinous sex crime they look into retrying. If they chose not to retry (or try the case at all which happens a lot in the lower courts) they file a nolle prosequi which dismisses the charges gives them right to bring it back out if something changes down the line (i.e. a new witness comes forward). there is also a DWOP (dismissed without prejudice) which has a similar effect but is requested by the defendant (could mean a million things like the Gov. does not want to file a nolle pros but cant get a necessary witness to come to court or on a drug case the evidence was suppressed).

Before i mentioned "no contest" (sometimes called nolo contedre)  and Alford pleas -- that's not a "guilty" plea but its an adjudication and firmly closes the book on a case.  both sides call this a victory.  Time served its pretty much self explanatory.  that's why you sometimes see sentences of "215 days HOC deemed served." You may also get offers of a guilty on an amended lesser included offence ("ABDW" is a lesser included of "ABDW causing serious bodily injury") with a split sentence (3 years State Prison, 18 months to serve, balance suspended over five years). 

when i was a student ADA in law school (i did not have the right temperament to make a career out it)  i never really got to see how the sausage was made for the superior court stuff but based on what ive experenced doing defense i would speculate that They drop the charges after consulting with the family of the alleged vic (who may not want to go through the stress of trial again), they don't have the resources or time to dedicate to another trial, and to some extent whether or not or they think the Defendant is a danger to the community or likely to reoffend.

 

How many people do this kind of work Pro-bono, That staircase doc on Netflix showed a guy who had his whole life account wiped out and the lawyer almost didn't want to take his re-trial but ended up doing it for free knowing that he could afford anyone

[Painted Baby]

I will say from personal experience it's not as easy as you'd expect to get someone to take your civil suit pro bono as you may have thought. I had to get a lawyer to represent me against a driver's insurance co and my own health insurance co and I had to go out of town to find one that would do it for the relatively small amount they were likely to get in the settlement.  All the tv guys who are supposedly in your corner were not in my corner.

[Cool Ceith]

I will say from personal experience it's not as easy as you'd expect to get someone to take your civil suit pro bono as you may have thought. I had to get a lawyer to represent me against a driver's insurance co and my own health insurance co and I had to go out of town to find one that would do it for the relatively small amount they were likely to get in the settlement.  All the tv guys who are supposedly in your corner were not in my corner.

Did you call Saul tho?