Israel's right to exist

[oyolar]

No state has the right to exist. It is not a concept understood in international law. But people do have the right to exist.

[Sleazy]

I know I’m gonna look dumb as fuck for asking this, but someone give me a general rundown of what the core of the conflict is between Israel and Palestine is? From what I gather, it’s rooted in religion, but you guys started talking about economics, World War 2, Karl Marx, France, and U.S. involvement (per usual) and I was completely out of the loop the whole time.

pretty concise summary: https://www.history.com/topics/middle-east/palestine

[Lord Viper Scorpion]

I know I’m gonna look dumb as fuck for asking this, but someone give me a general rundown of what the core of the conflict is between Israel and Palestine is? From what I gather, it’s rooted in religion, but you guys started talking about economics, World War 2, Karl Marx, France, and U.S. involvement (per usual) and I was completely out of the loop the whole time.

it's the fucking fault of the british, google capitalism and imperialism

[IUTSM]

Been pretty tempted to focus because of this thread.

ayyyye. stay with us hombre.

[PERILL]

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I know I’m gonna look dumb as fuck for asking this, but someone give me a general rundown of what the core of the conflict is between Israel and Palestine is? From what I gather, it’s rooted in religion, but you guys started talking about economics, World War 2, Karl Marx, France, and U.S. involvement (per usual) and I was completely out of the loop the whole time.

[close]

pretty concise summary: https://www.history.com/topics/middle-east/palestine

I can see why people would have their own opinions on the matter, even if it’s not really their business or problem. But why on Earth does the U.S. government think it’s okay to stick their nose in while representing the entire country? It’s one thing to involve yourself, but it’s another thing to involve yourself and say you represent 300 million people, most of which would disagree with what you’re doing.

[Abyss1]

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I know I’m gonna look dumb as fuck for asking this, but someone give me a general rundown of what the core of the conflict is between Israel and Palestine is? From what I gather, it’s rooted in religion, but you guys started talking about economics, World War 2, Karl Marx, France, and U.S. involvement (per usual) and I was completely out of the loop the whole time.

[close]

it's the fucking fault of the british, oil and gas capitalism and imperialism

Invested British and US interest in Oil in the Middle east,  IDF forces funded by USA,  Bush hooks them up, then OBAMA gives the IDF a steroid shot, and Trump the gas on the fire... Voila

[Freelancevagrant]

No state has the right to exist. It is not a concept understood in international law. But people do have the right to exist.

[DaleSr]

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I know I’m gonna look dumb as fuck for asking this, but someone give me a general rundown of what the core of the conflict is between Israel and Palestine is? From what I gather, it’s rooted in religion, but you guys started talking about economics, World War 2, Karl Marx, France, and U.S. involvement (per usual) and I was completely out of the loop the whole time.

[close]

pretty concise summary: https://www.history.com/topics/middle-east/palestine

[close]

I can see why people would have their own opinions on the matter, even if it’s not really their business or problem. But why on Earth does the U.S. government think it’s okay to stick their nose in while representing the entire country? It’s one thing to involve yourself, but it’s another thing to involve yourself and say you represent 300 million people, most of which would disagree with what you’re doing.

Dude that is all the US has done the past 75 years or so since WWII. Increase the world's suffering through imperial foreign policy

[theresnothinghere]

OP asks "wHy coLoniZatiOn baD tHinG? wHy maN cAn nOt MakE eThnIc cLeanSing? mAn kIll bRoWn mEn, wHy nOT gOoD thiNg?"

[matty_c]

Typed maybe two pages, though about it and noped

But I wish all in the area the all best, dreadful situation

[Urtripping]

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Been pretty tempted to focus because of this thread.

[close]

ayyyye. stay with us hombre.

I'll say it was refreshing to read thoughtful discussion here before the turn this thread took after Israel's recent aggression. People were sharing history, viewpoints, context, and real lived experiences. I agree with scorpion dude in that what was missing was a real Palestinain perspective in this discussion. I don't agree with the reductive argument that this issue is not complicated.

What's plain as day is that the power imbalance and heinous military occupation needs to end. There's no excuse or defense for it that can ever merit recognition, especially when you consider which side has the military/financial resources and support from major global powers. It is disgusting colonialism and pushing the conflict even further in the direction of war.. the retaliation of Palestinian people in reaction to it is absolutely justified (imo) as a means of self preservation to combat an oppressive force.

That doesn't mean there isn't a deeply complex history and current sociopolitical situation that makes any actual solution here (with regards to preventing future violence and conflicts) very difficult to achieve. Those of you posting memes should share some actual ideas rather than repoating images that say "Fuck Israel." It just comes off like you don't want to really engage with the issue beyond taking what is ultimately passive stance. Post a pic and be done thinkin bout it.

BTW, condemning Israel's actions here does not make you an antisemite, and it is not antisemitism to say "Fuck Israel" for its actions. Because really, fuck Israel for what is happening. But also, fuck the idiots here who took an actual discussion and turned it into yelling.

Edit: sorry, but the slactivism gets to me.

Edit edit: OP actually wrote in one of his posts that he supports a 2 state solution. As I read, I found many of the questions and arguments he put forward were unhelpful, misguided, and even off topic or contradictory, but I definitely think this (2 states) should be the goal. That is simple for me to see. What isn't is how to get there without bloodshed  now or preventing future complications. Just so, so stupid to call this simple imo.

[white guy in a durag]

For those of means to, here's a few charities you can consider supporting
Doctors Without Borders
Medical Aid for Palestine (MAP)
The Palestine Children's Relief Fund
ANERA

[TheLurper]

https://www.vox.com/world/2021/5/15/22436068/israel-violence-lod-bat-yam-jerusalem-lynching-arab-jewish-palestinian

[cky enthusiast]

cmon son you can’t bomb the associated press

get these bozos outta here

[tuesday]

Pretty revealing when posters are not capable or willing to argue against the politics of a government of a country but against the country itself.

[cky enthusiast]

that statement is meaningless without context

[HeapsCool]

Why the fuck are all you useless fucks applauding each other for such a level headed, gentlemanly conduct whilst children are being murdered by Israeli fascists? Apartheid is happening in Israel rn and it is disgusting.

Invoking antisemitism as some kind of defense for apartheid and genocide is totally pathetic and evil.

Netanyahu is a piece of shit.

Fear does funny things to people.

[Urtripping]

Why the fuck are all you useless fucks applauding each other for such a level headed, gentlemanly conduct whilst children are being murdered by Israeli fascists? Apartheid is happening in Israel rn and it is disgusting.

Invoking antisemitism as some kind of defense for apartheid and genocide is totally pathetic and evil.

Netanyahu is a piece of shit.

Fear does funny things to people.

Because OP actually seemed to learn something and change his views somewhat after people came answering his question with information and empathy. Allowed OP to put himself in a vulnerable position and grow. OP is not the Israeli military or Netanyahu, at least I don't think he is... so save the criticism for the actual culprits of the crime and support another person in understanding what's really good.

And I completely get being outraged, because I'm outraged too. But here, we're not at a protest. Here, we had people trying to understand and explain why it's "Fuck Israel," or to be more specific, fuck the Israeli government and far right. And it was kinda going somewhere.

It's so cool to just say it over and over. Fuck Israel. Free Palestine. Yes, and yes. The persecution needs to end and Israel needs to be held accountable as a nation. It's especially tempting to scream it from the mountaintops when Israel pushes it further like they just did. But in a discussion where the other side is actually receptive to ideas, we gotta do a bit more. It doesn't happen very often, especially not on the fuckin internet, and especially not fuckin here.

People don't respond well to "Death to you/fuck you" as a response to their questions, but we all know that pretty goddamn well. To be able to reply with more than jokes or slogans in this setting shows an actual commitment to the cause, if you ask me. All that being said, I did have a laugh at some jokes about soft headlines regarding the AP building destruction, like "AP office in Gaza damaged amidst conflict between Hamas and Israel." Thankfully they actually condemned the air strike.

[tuesday]

A more detailed first person account from an AP journalist working in the building:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/16/no-safe-place-associated-press-reporter-describes-gaza-office-attack

[boi-cuzudo]

Israel...I don't know much, the little I know I concluded it's A) an Apartheid state...
B) I know they got an iron dome protecting the Holy Land, bomb shelters just in case, and 18 year old boys in the militay with machine guns patrolling the streets...
C) Holy Land more like a Human Meat Grinder Land in my opinion since the early times

I was reading this the other day...the more I learn, the less the less I believe
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/jun/12/what-does-it-mean-to-be-genetically-jewish


Edit: Thank you for coming to my Talk, i contributed zero to this discussion. 

[Jehoshaphat Augustus]

They actually have 3 defense systems

Expect stock in Raytheon to go up...

[cucktard]

They actually have 3 defense systems

Expect stock in Raytheon to go up...

Good fucking Jesus/ Yahweh/ Allah,

Their mid-range defense system is called ‘David’s Sling’? Orwellian doublespeak is real.

[brycickle]

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This whole process started long before WW2.

[close]

I’ve been dreading posting in here but I’ve felt that I should at least chime in here.

Arguably, it goes back to the destruction of the second temple. In the Babylonian Talmud, specifically tractate ketubot (111a I believe, I haven’t studied the bavli Talmud in a few years) it was said that upon our exile there were three oaths were exchanged between us (Jews) and HaShem (god). Two oaths pertained to us, Jews (or nations acting on our behalf) can not take back the land of eretz yisrael by force and in turn massively immigrate to it, or make aliyah(return) or rebel against the other nations of the world. The other oath was to the nations of the world not to subjugate the Jews, but we see how that shit turned out. Up until the Shoah, within the orthodox world, these words were considered law. Now, out of the Jewish world it is only the Haredim that hold these views. The majority of the Orthodox world was opposed to Zionism because they felt that it was a cop out, a circumvention of the three oaths that were exchanged, and a means of destroying the religious portion of being Jewish and exchanging them for use as a political point.


However, in verifiable and legitimate history, it goes back to the Balfour declaration which coincides with the British declaring war in the Ottoman Empire in 1914.

Sources: me, the bavli Talmud, and VaYoel Moshe by the Satmar Rav, Yoel Teitelbaum.

I wasn't going quite that far back. Just 'ol Theodore Herzl and the advent of modern zionism.

[duniwayRobber]

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They actually have 3 defense systems

Expect stock in Raytheon to go up...

[close]

Good fucking Jesus/ Yahweh/ Allah,

Their mid-range defense system is called ‘David’s Sling’? Orwellian doublespeak is real.

Religion is a helluva drug.

[Beeda Weeda]

I have said this before, and I will say it again.
Israel  is a sate, you can criticize a state for its actions, and it is not racist or anti Semitic.
Jews are a people, you can criticize an individual for their actions and it is not racist or anti Semitic.
you can't criticize Jews for being Jews, that is anti Semitic
criticizing Israel for is atrocious actions towards Palestine and the Arab world is not anti Semitic
Maybe is Christians, Jews and Muslims stopped basing their existence made up stories we could find some peace.
The Jews are treating the Arab Muslims like a lesser people, just like the Jews were being treated in the 19th and 20th century.
bibi is a war criminal and this latest "escalation" is just a way to garner support because he can't win a majority and he can't form a minority government.
money, power, oil and religion.
that said, fuck Israel, no the people, they are to be judge by their individual actions

whoops, i forgot to say fuck the military industrial complex and the lobbying that keeps the entire world at war.

[ChuckRamone]

I have said this before, and I will say it again.
Israel  is a sate, you can criticize a state for its actions, and it is not racist or anti Semitic.
Jews are a people, you can criticize an individual for their actions and it is not racist or anti Semitic.
you can't criticize Jews for being Jews, that is anti Semitic
criticizing Israel for is atrocious actions towards Palestine and the Arab world is not anti Semitic
Maybe is Christians, Jews and Muslims stopped basing their existence made up stories we could find some peace.
The Jews are treating the Arab Muslims like a lesser people, just like the Jews were being treated in the 19th and 20th century.
bibi is a war criminal and this latest "escalation" is just a way to garner support because he can't win a majority and he can't form a minority government.
money, power, oil and religion.
that said, fuck Israel, no the people, they are to be judge by their individual actions

whoops, i forgot to say fuck the military industrial complex and the lobbying that keeps the entire world at war.

fuck the CIA too. one of the most evil entities on the planet.

[Deputy Wendell]

"Beer in hand, sun lotion on face, we ran...It’s [Tel Aviv] a kind of an escape...Four days ago, the city was normal and hopping...There’s been a change since the rockets fell...”

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/16/world/middleeast/israel-tel-aviv.html?action=click&module=Spotlight&pgtype=Homepage

all of Israel is accountable, and i don't want to see anyone get hurt, but while these things are going on, it's impossible to feel bad about the "hedonistic" beach party being interrupted...

i am sickened by the shameless and murderous depths of violence and depravity into which Israel has allowed the Zionist impulse to drag it...

[matty_c]

For those of means to, here's a few charities you can consider supporting
Doctors Without Borders
Medical Aid for Palestine (MAP)
The Palestine Children's Relief Fund
ANERA

Yeah word msf do some good shit

[tuesday]

"Beer in hand, sun lotion on face, we ran...It’s [Tel Aviv] a kind of an escape...Four days ago, the city was normal and hopping...There’s been a change since the rockets fell...”

it's impossible to feel bad about the "hedonistic" beach party being interrupted...

Hope that you feel at least bad that in Gaza under Hamas rule there will never be allowed 'hedonistic' beach parties of this kind.

...
The Jews are treating the Arab Muslims like a lesser people [...]
...

Collectively blaming 'the jews'? -Text-book antisemitism.

[cky enthusiast]

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"Beer in hand, sun lotion on face, we ran...It’s [Tel Aviv] a kind of an escape...Four days ago, the city was normal and hopping...There’s been a change since the rockets fell...”

it's impossible to feel bad about the "hedonistic" beach party being interrupted...

[close]

Hope that you feel at least bad that in Gaza under Hamas rule there will never be allowed 'hedonistic' beach parties of this kind.

great point, better slaughter them indiscriminately