Refugee crisis in Europe.

[Tracer]

Monty if you promote ethnic cleansing you will be called a nazi, deal with it. PEGIDA is racist as fuck, and they're growing super fast. Nazis under another name.

[Monty Burns]

Monty if you promote ethnic cleansing you will be called a nazi, deal with it. PEGIDA is racist as fuck, and they're growing super fast. Nazis under another name.

gonna need a quote of when i promoted that , or a quote where I promoted anything slightly racist or nazi

[Alan]

You didn't really understand any of my points, did you?

Like this one, for example:

If you knew anything about fascism, you wouldn't confuse the welfare state with tolerance or democracy.

Don't worry. If you want to understand what I'm talking about, I can point you to a couple of monographs dealing with this subject.


Btw, did your grandparents get paid by the Jewish refugees?

[Monty Burns]

You didn't really understand any of my points, did you?

Like this one, for example:

Expand Quote

If you knew anything about fascism, you wouldn't confuse the welfare state with tolerance or democracy.

[close]

Don't worry. If you want to understand what I'm talking about, I can point you to a couple of monographs dealing with this subject.


Btw, did your grandparents get paid by the Jewish refugees?

You dont need to point me in any direction . I know you agree with tufty on things so you must be holding on very thinly to reality .

No they didnt

[Alan]

So why do you support the Danish government's new policy?


Btw, re: your multicultural friends
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Friend_argument

[Zurg]

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Syrian, Iraqi, and Iranian asylum seekers in Austria are better educated than the Austrians. Afghanis not so much. (in German) http://derstandard.at/2000028899170/AMS-Kompetenzcheck-Syrer-besser-gebildet-als-Oesterreicher


Also, has anyone else read the story about how the Danish government wanted to take the refugees' wedding rings as part of payment for their stay in Denmark? Nope, not fascist at all.

[close]

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The government, the Social Democrats, the Danish People's Party, the Liberal Alliance and the Conservative People's Party have agreed to amend the bill concerning valuables," a government statement said, indicating that wedding rings and other items of sentimental value would be exempt from the move. In addition to wedding rings, it listed engagement rings, family portraits and badges of honour as items that could not be confiscated from asylum seekers.

[close]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/denmark/12096104/Danish-government-secures-backing-for-bill-on-taking-migrants-valuables.html


How does this not make sense ?  you come to a new country and expect housing , a job and financial aid . But you are not willing to give up
personal property like expensive laptops or jewellery

Its like somebody who lives in a huge house with 2 Ferraris and demands financial aid cause he cant afford it . Why not sell the house , buy a cheaper one and get rid of the cars ?

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It's always the ones without direct experience who are the most radical, shaking their fist at the refugees on TV and voting far right.

[close]

Sweden has been one of the nations who have accepted most refugees in Europe , from many countries and many wars . During this syrian conflict Germany and Sweden were the top 2 countries accepting refugees in Europe I belive

yet we have no direct experience with refugees ? .


As for denmark

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/22/denmark-happiest-country_n_4070761.html

They have free healthcare , free school and university , Great support of Familes and parents , Working retirement plans , free museums and art places  , focus on environmental issues , liberal drug laws . lots of social support

So yeah alan those fascist bastards . Im surprised Musuelini isnt the PM of Denmark with all that horrible stuff going on

giving up a wedding ring? not super important to me(not married), but people can be very sentimental about it. in some cases that may be the only thing they left of their spouse.

give up their laptops for what? its a useful tool for people to find and perform jobs. what would the danish government do with a stack of laptops anyway? or maybe your analogy suggests something more along the lines of refugees trading in their macbooks for an old dell?

danish citizens pay taxes for those services you brought up. wont refugees do the same through sales taxes and eventually through deductions at work? i know finding work for all those people is a big issue which is entirely different, but your arguments are so bad

[Monty Burns]

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Syrian, Iraqi, and Iranian asylum seekers in Austria are better educated than the Austrians. Afghanis not so much. (in German) http://derstandard.at/2000028899170/AMS-Kompetenzcheck-Syrer-besser-gebildet-als-Oesterreicher


Also, has anyone else read the story about how the Danish government wanted to take the refugees' wedding rings as part of payment for their stay in Denmark? Nope, not fascist at all.

[close]

Expand Quote

The government, the Social Democrats, the Danish People's Party, the Liberal Alliance and the Conservative People's Party have agreed to amend the bill concerning valuables," a government statement said, indicating that wedding rings and other items of sentimental value would be exempt from the move. In addition to wedding rings, it listed engagement rings, family portraits and badges of honour as items that could not be confiscated from asylum seekers.

[close]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/denmark/12096104/Danish-government-secures-backing-for-bill-on-taking-migrants-valuables.html


How does this not make sense ?  you come to a new country and expect housing , a job and financial aid . But you are not willing to give up
personal property like expensive laptops or jewellery

Its like somebody who lives in a huge house with 2 Ferraris and demands financial aid cause he cant afford it . Why not sell the house , buy a cheaper one and get rid of the cars ?

Expand Quote

It's always the ones without direct experience who are the most radical, shaking their fist at the refugees on TV and voting far right.

[close]

Sweden has been one of the nations who have accepted most refugees in Europe , from many countries and many wars . During this syrian conflict Germany and Sweden were the top 2 countries accepting refugees in Europe I belive

yet we have no direct experience with refugees ? .


As for denmark

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/22/denmark-happiest-country_n_4070761.html

They have free healthcare , free school and university , Great support of Familes and parents , Working retirement plans , free museums and art places  , focus on environmental issues , liberal drug laws . lots of social support

So yeah alan those fascist bastards . Im surprised Musuelini isnt the PM of Denmark with all that horrible stuff going on

[close]

giving up a wedding ring? not super important to me(not married), but people can be very sentimental about it. in some cases that may be the only thing they left of their spouse.

give up their laptops for what? its a useful tool for people to find and perform jobs. what would the danish government do with a stack of laptops anyway? or maybe your analogy suggests something more along the lines of refugees trading in their macbooks for an old dell?

danish citizens pay taxes for those services you brought up. wont refugees do the same through sales taxes and eventually through deductions at work? i know finding work for all those people is a big issue which is entirely different, but your arguments are so bad

clearly says in the new article and in my quote that they will NOT have to give up things like wedding rings and super personal stuff

How long before these refugees pay taxes ? how long to find a home , learn the language , learn the customs , get into school
get job training , get a job ? . medical treatment , therapy . ?

Many years , and all this time they are not paying taxes , Even people who are for mass immigration and the refugees say that
integration for them is not working at all . so say both the left and right .

New years is a indication of this Cologne has had over 500 reported incidents of immigrants and refugees attacking Germans .
almost 40 incidents of sexual assault and rape at a music festival last summer . That Swedish Police and media  decided to
cover up cause they thought it would effect the refugee situation negativity

Theres a thread about the mass sexuall attacks caused by North African and Middle eastern men all over europe in "Whatever" and its been all over the news aswell .  Integration is not working

[ice nine]

monty you literally disregard every point everyone else makes and just keep repeating the same shit. do you honestly think that is a good strategy?

[Monty Burns]

monty you literally disregard every point everyone else makes and just keep repeating the same shit. do you honestly think that is a good strategy?

what point did I not address ? . And I repeat my points cause I have not seen a reason to give up my standpoint

what are alans and tuftys strategies besides calling me a fascist , racist and nazi ?

[KoRnholio8]

monty supports zionism and then get offended when called a nazi ... dude, you are blinded by your own believes.

[Monty Burns]

monty supports zionism and then get offended when called a nazi ... dude, you are blinded by your own believes.

supporting SOME of Israels domestic and foreign policies makes me a Zionist ? 

[Garth Marenghi]

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monty supports zionism and then get offended when called a nazi ... dude, you are blinded by your own believes.

[close]

supporting SOME of Israels domestic and foreign policies makes me a Zionist ? 

You could always elaborate on those policies you support? Might give a clearer view of your beliefs, given how selective and subjective you've been while discussing the subject matter at hand.

How does this not make sense ?  you come to a new country and expect housing , a job and financial aid . But you are not willing to give up
personal property like expensive laptops or jewellery

Its like somebody who lives in a huge house with 2 Ferraris and demands financial aid cause he cant afford it . Why not sell the house , buy a cheaper one and get rid of the cars ?

I'm amazed how hard it is for you to put yourself in someone else's shoes. Is it really that difficult to relate to this group of people? You've mentioned supporting other countries' policies (ones that aren't directly affecting your life) so it can't be a general disdain for other people. News, notable individuals and acts clouding your judgment? Or have you personally had bad experiences with refugees? I'm honestly curious.

[Monty Burns]

You could always elaborate on those policies you support? Might give a clearer view of your beliefs, given how selective and subjective you've been while discussing the subject matter at hand.

Why ? its not the topic at hand . Supporting Israel is a response to several people calling me a Nazi , and after hearing I have a history with jews and Israel , I get accused of being a Zionist , while still being called a fascist and racist

Clearer view of my belives ?  this thread is 7 pages long , the german sexuall assult thread is 2 pages long , and the paris attacks is 8 pages long . Did you read those threads ? or did you just jump on the " Monty is a Nazi facist racist Zionist "

I'm amazed how hard it is for you to put yourself in someone else's shoes. Is it really that difficult to relate to this group of people? You've mentioned supporting other countries' policies (ones that aren't directly affecting your life) so it can't be a general disdain for other people. News, notable individuals and acts clouding your judgment? Or have you personally had bad experiences with refugees? I'm honestly curious.

Sweden took in about 190 000 refugees in 2015 . Swedens third biggest city is about 300 000 . The swedish government has pretty much closed the borders cause we cant take anymore refugees . When every other country besides Germany was closing the borders , Sweden kept them open until the immigration said it couldnt handle it anymore , we had no more houses . people were sleeping outside or in tents .
The Swedish PM gave a press conference saying the situation is out of control and closed the borders

How can you say I dont have any empathy ? Us swedes just took in a whole new city and yet people want sweden to take more people in . How many have Alans UK taken in ?  what about tuftys greece ?

[Garth Marenghi]

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You could always elaborate on those policies you support? Might give a clearer view of your beliefs, given how selective and subjective you've been while discussing the subject matter at hand.

[close]

Why ? its not the topic at hand . Supporting Israel is a response to several people calling me a Nazi , and after hearing I have a history with jews and Israel , I get accused of being a Zionist , while still being called a fascist and racist

Clearer view of my belives ?  this thread is 7 pages long , the german sexuall assult thread is 2 pages long , and the paris attacks is 8 pages long . Did you read those threads ? or did you just jump on the " Monty is a Nazi facist racist Zionist "

So your grandparents have a history with jews and you have jewish friends. Sure, guess that works as a refute to being a racist. Supporting Israel and it's policies (to some degree you're not willing to explain, just not zealously?) is understandable, too. It's just that your "I'm not a racist but..." approach to this discussion is bewildering. Hence suggesting you to be more specific. Up to you, really. Not jumping any bandwagons or haven't got any lollipops to be taken from me.

Expand Quote

I'm amazed how hard it is for you to put yourself in someone else's shoes. Is it really that difficult to relate to this group of people? You've mentioned supporting other countries' policies (ones that aren't directly affecting your life) so it can't be a general disdain for other people. News, notable individuals and acts clouding your judgment? Or have you personally had bad experiences with refugees? I'm honestly curious.

[close]

Sweden took in about 190 000 refugees in 2015 . Swedens third biggest city is about 300 000 . The swedish government has pretty much closed the borders cause we cant take anymore refugees . When every other country besides Germany was closing the borders , Sweden kept them open until the immigration said it couldnt handle it anymore , we had no more houses . people were sleeping outside or in tents .
The Swedish PM gave a press conference saying the situation is out of control and closed the borders

How can you say I dont have any empathy ? Us swedes just took in a whole new city and yet people want sweden to take more people in . How many have Alans UK taken in ?  what about tuftys greece ?

Yes, you've made perfectly clear that Sweden has taken many many refugees compared to other countries. What I asked though was the reason behind your personal detachment from human beings in a dire situation. You are not the whole country of Sweden (Tufty not Greece, Alan certainly not the UK considering he's not from there...) nor am I questioning your ability to be empathic. Inability to relate on the other hand...

You probably just missed it back on page 5 but you (Monty or Monty's Sweden, whichever your definition of you is) will prevail: http://www.thelocal.se/20151215/swedish-pm-confident-of-refugee-integration http://www.dn.se/nyheter/sverige/man-gor-sin-plikt-och-da-far-man-sina-rattigheter-1/

[Tufty]

First of all you are so Nazi that you ask what we have done as a nation.  In my sayings I condemn the governments and those who defend their fascist-like policies NOT THE PEOPLE, especially those who critically stand against those politics.

 Greece as a whole doesnt mean a thing. The government is playing a dirty game of not assisting the refugees to leave the islands just so that it escalates the tension to blackmail the EU for money for infrastracture for the refugees. The sea borders are impossible to be closed and when you find a boat full of kids and families in the greek waters there is nothing you can do apart from rescuing them, the greek government takes advantage of that to pressure EU by stacking people in greek islands instead of helping them continuing their journey. The government in greece is a fraud and piece of shit like every government in the EU. Instead people of greece have shown tremendous solidarity to refugees offering them housing, food, clothes and helping them as much as we can. However among them there are the incidents of fascists that attack the refugees or those that trick them to make money taking advantage of their vunerable situation(taxi drivers doubling fares, people selling stuff to them in triple prices etc). I ve been part of a movement to pressure greek government to open the terrestrial border with Turkey and disable the minefield there so that people wont get drowned. Of course the government is afraid of getting kicked out of the EU(something I wished even before the crisis) and pretends to shed tears for the drowned immigrants.

 Refugees are not idiots. The advancement of technology have reached middle east and Africa, so those people know how west people live compared to them and they want to go there instead of living a life of poverty. They know that Greece is in deep shit and dont want to settle in here. God even Greeks want to leave Greece with all that bailout bullshit. I only search for a job abroad as anything I found here as an engineer is just above poverty line wages. So dont expect immigrants and refugees staying in greece instead prepare to welcome greeks along with them.

 Wether you like it or not Imperialism that steals third world's resources so that West can have a nice living standard doesnt come without consequences. It comes with extensive immigration which is far easier today due to the technology.

[ben shraider]

Yes, you've made perfectly clear that Sweden has taken many many refugees compared to other countries. What I asked though was the reason behind your personal detachment from human beings in a dire situation. You are not the whole country of Sweden (Tufty not Greece, Alan certainly not the UK considering he's not from there...) nor am I questioning your ability to be empathic. Inability to relate on the other hand...

You probably just missed it back on page 5 but you (Monty or Monty's Sweden, whichever your definition of you is) will prevail: http://www.thelocal.se/20151215/swedish-pm-confident-of-refugee-integration http://www.dn.se/nyheter/sverige/man-gor-sin-plikt-och-da-far-man-sina-rattigheter-1/

That article is bullshit. To say that the refuges will be able to integrate to the society is very unrealistic. Even the small amounts of refugees that have come to europe a few decades ago haven't really been able to culturally integrate to the societies. It has worked out because such small number of people is easy to oppress and ignore. This kind of an amount of people with such extremely different cultural background can't be forced to be second class citizens, they'll want the right to unite and embrace their culture. There will be more incidents where the immigrants harass women, beat up people and cause problems, and where the fascists burn down refuge centers and do other fucked up shit. These incidents get blown out of proportion because of the press and the internet and the tension between the two sides is gonna grow and grow.

First of all you are so Nazi that you ask what we have done as a nation.  In my sayings I condemn the governments and those who defend their fascist-like policies NOT THE PEOPLE, especially those who critically stand against those politics.

You're doing the same by saying that the western countries should take responsibility of destabilizing the middle east.

[Tufty]

 No I am not. I just say what is ethical for the GOVERNMENTS to do and I know that they wont do this, because it is against the interests of mega corps banks and monopolies in general. If you notice I always refered to policies and never asked for example monty what has done personally. I only refered to people when there were fascist practices. Most people dont have a clue about politics.

 I know that my opinions are a minority in Europe which has conservative and fascists governments who are guided by monopolies, mega corps and banks. The only thing I seek to do is to convince people that the enemy is their governments, EU, corporations and banks. Not Immigrants. I dont seek the swedes, germans and danish for example to bare the weight of refugee crisis under this system but rather propose an alternative for whole Europe, instead of falling into the pitfalls the elites create.

[Garth Marenghi]

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Yes, you've made perfectly clear that Sweden has taken many many refugees compared to other countries. What I asked though was the reason behind your personal detachment from human beings in a dire situation. You are not the whole country of Sweden (Tufty not Greece, Alan certainly not the UK considering he's not from there...) nor am I questioning your ability to be empathic. Inability to relate on the other hand...

You probably just missed it back on page 5 but you (Monty or Monty's Sweden, whichever your definition of you is) will prevail: http://www.thelocal.se/20151215/swedish-pm-confident-of-refugee-integration http://www.dn.se/nyheter/sverige/man-gor-sin-plikt-och-da-far-man-sina-rattigheter-1/

[close]

That article is bullshit. To say that the refuges will be able to integrate to the society is very unrealistic. Even the small amounts of refugees that have come to europe a few decades ago haven't really been able to culturally integrate to the societies. It has worked out because such small number of people is easy to oppress and ignore. This kind of an amount of people with such extremely different cultural background can't be forced to be second class citizens, they'll want the right to unite and embrace their culture. There will be more incidents where the immigrants harass women, beat up people and cause problems, and where the fascists burn down refuge centers and do other fucked up shit. These incidents get blown out of proportion because of the press and the internet and the tension between the two sides is gonna grow and grow.

The PM's point of view is admittedly rose-tinted in it's optimism. Can't say the thought of Sweden falling into complete despair because of refugees is any more realistic, though.

I'm fairly certain that not all are going to stay especially if the situation in their home country some day (in the near or distant future) stabilises. I probably wouldn't.

Integration is a tedious process for all parties concerned and hasn't been very successful. It's more to do with the unfit tools and practices of governments than the unwillingness to adapt. Nevertheless, it's pretty bold to assume that refugees arriving in our pseudo-secular countries are unable to conform and embrace their cultural heritage (be religious) at the same time.

[Alan]

You dont need to point me in any direction . I know you agree with tufty on things so you must be holding on very thinly to reality .

I am suggesting that you read some academic literature on fascist social policies, so that you may understand the parallels to the present situation in Europe in general, and Denmark in particular, but you are happy with getting your opinion from shitty tabloids? That's fine. I'm not really surprised.

[ben shraider]

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Yes, you've made perfectly clear that Sweden has taken many many refugees compared to other countries. What I asked though was the reason behind your personal detachment from human beings in a dire situation. You are not the whole country of Sweden (Tufty not Greece, Alan certainly not the UK considering he's not from there...) nor am I questioning your ability to be empathic. Inability to relate on the other hand...

You probably just missed it back on page 5 but you (Monty or Monty's Sweden, whichever your definition of you is) will prevail: http://www.thelocal.se/20151215/swedish-pm-confident-of-refugee-integration http://www.dn.se/nyheter/sverige/man-gor-sin-plikt-och-da-far-man-sina-rattigheter-1/

[close]

That article is bullshit. To say that the refuges will be able to integrate to the society is very unrealistic. Even the small amounts of refugees that have come to europe a few decades ago haven't really been able to culturally integrate to the societies. It has worked out because such small number of people is easy to oppress and ignore. This kind of an amount of people with such extremely different cultural background can't be forced to be second class citizens, they'll want the right to unite and embrace their culture. There will be more incidents where the immigrants harass women, beat up people and cause problems, and where the fascists burn down refuge centers and do other fucked up shit. These incidents get blown out of proportion because of the press and the internet and the tension between the two sides is gonna grow and grow.

[close]

The PM's point of view is admittedly rose-tinted in it's optimism. Can't say the thought of Sweden falling into complete despair because of refugees is any more realistic, though.

I'm fairly certain that not all are going to stay especially if the situation in their home country some day (in the near or distant future) stabilises. I probably wouldn't.

Integration is a tedious process for all parties concerned and hasn't been very successful. It's more to do with the unfit tools and practices of governments than the unwillingness to adapt. Nevertheless, it's pretty bold to assume that refugees arriving in our pseudo-secular countries are unable to conform and embrace their cultural heritage (be religious) at the same time.

I agree that the governments practices in trying to integrate the refugees are very poor in most countries, but I'd still say that the unwillingness to adapt (which is understandable) is the biggest problem. People can't just abandon their beliefs and morals that they've grown up with and they want to see their kids grow up having similar values. Creating effective tools and practices that wouldn't be forceful and unethical is difficult.

Cultural heritage is a lot more than the religion. Religion is just a name, the differences in the moral values and the way of communicating is what causes problems.

[Monty Burns]

Alan

Sure Ill look into it abit more . But just like I said . You are backing Tufty , who hates the west , who hates corporation . Who think all that is evil in this world is the west and corporation . Who thinks its modern slavery and the reason of millions of deaths

but is currently applying for a job at a major corporation . If you dont realize what kind of traitor to his cause and scum tufty is .

And did you really try to use " Im not a XXX . my friend is a XXX " against me ?  . You really think Im a nazi and Im lying about having
lived in  Tel Aviv , having a jewish gf , or having jewish friends ?   At the start of these threads we all agreed to have a nice calm
discussion . And now you are pulling shit like that ?


So for Everybody

Fascist
a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition

How does Sweden , Denmark or me fit under this label ?  I vote for the Green Party in sweden every 4 years . I back high taxes to assist social programs in sweden and I think high taxation helps the country . Im for 4 year elections . Im for the EU and for being able to move across
the EU and get a job where you want .

Nazi
a member of the National Socialist German Workers' Party, which controlled Germany from 1933 to 1945 under Adolf Hitler and advocated totalitarian government, territorial expansion, anti-Semitism, and Aryan supremacy, all these leading directly to World War II and the Holocaust.

Im not a member of the National Socialist German Workers' Party and I wasnt even alive in 1933 or 1945 . I dont agree with  a
totalitarian government , Im not suggesting Sweden should expand its territories , Im not a Anti Semite or promoting Aryan Supremacy

Neo Nazi
a person who belongs to a political organization whose beliefs are inspired by or reminiscent of Nazism.

Well I dont believe in any of the old nazi belives , so I cant believe in neo nazi values either


I hope that clears some stuff up . Ive lived and worked in 8 countries for the past 10 years , I work as a chef so Ive worked and been friends
of chefs from maybe 20+ countries of every race and every religion .


So for Garth Marenghi

So your grandparents have a history with jews and you have jewish friends. Sure, guess that works as a refute to being a racist. Supporting Israel and it's policies (to some degree you're not willing to explain, just not zealously?) is understandable, too. It's just that your "I'm not a racist but..." approach to this discussion is bewildering.

Im not sure if you are trolling , But I used it as a explanation and then wrote 2 times more that it was a defence of being called a Nazi . Not sure why you bring it up as a defence for not being racist . What race am I supposed to be racist against ? Syria and Afghanistan is not a race
Sweden is not a race

What I asked though was the reason behind your personal detachment from human beings in a dire situation. You are not the whole country of Sweden (Tufty not Greece, Alan certainly not the UK considering he's not from there...) nor am I questioning your ability to be empathic. Inability to relate on the other hand...

Well where does it end ? Ive brought up Africa many times in this thread . Should Sweden rescue all the people in need in Africa ? what about Asia ? Many live in horrible conditions in Asia . Many live with war in the Middle east ?  Do you feel attached to all these people ?.

Imagine Sweden is a boat . it can fit 50 people , or lets say 50 refugees . Now there is about 1 million refugees in the water . Sure it would be nice to save all 1 million , but we can only fit 50 people . Are we evil people cause we only saved 50 ? even if saving 51 will sink the boat ?

I was saying it before we closed the boarder , Sweden cant / shouldn't take in more people . Alot in this thread said we would be fine and about a week later Sweden closed its borders cause we couldnt take in more

And sure Im not Sweden BUT I live in Sweden and pay taxes in Sweden . To a government I voted for . The green party is part of the ruling government and has a say in what happens in Sweden .


And where is Alan from ?

[Alan]

I knew you wouldn't understand. My point was that just because Denmark is a welfare state doesn't mean that their polices against the refugees don't smack of fascism, hence my parallel with the fascist welfare state.

I never called you a Nazi, but you definitely support fascist ideas. You also seem to have a very narrow understanding of fascism, and seem incapable of seeing the big picture, so, as someone mentioned, you are a prime example of a PEGIDA supporter, hence the photo I posted earlier.


You definitely pulled a textbook example of the friend argument.  I believe you have Jewish friends, I also believe that you support fascist/racist policies. These are not mutually exclusive. That's why other people in this thread have called you out, too.


And about Tufty, I really don't want to go over this again, but he is right, the global system is controlled by the West, and even capitalists know that it's not just or fair, but you know, profits... And then there are the naive ones like you who think everything is peachy, or that the poor and underdeveloped are like that just because they're lazy or because the local leaders alone are at fault.

I posted this before, but it bears repeating: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immanuel_Wallerstein#The_Modern_World-System

[QUIT SINNIN]

what is with Europeans and using the word "fascist" as a catch-all for anything politically incorrect?

[Monty Burns]

I knew you wouldn't understand. My point was that just because Denmark is a welfare state doesn't mean that their polices against the refugees don't smack of fascism, hence my parallel with the fascist welfare state.
I never called you a Nazi, but you definitely support fascist ideas. You also seem to have a very narrow understanding of fascism, and seem incapable of seeing the big picture, so, as someone mentioned, you are a prime example of a PEGIDA supporter, hence the photo I posted earlier.

Its about % isnt it . You cant call the Danish government fascist if they their direction is 99% socialist , but do 1 thing reminiscing of something fascist, Id doesnt make it a fascist goverment  . When people bring up fascism and a fascist state you think Italy in the late 30s and early 40s . Mussolini

Im not gonna go in on a political major level about what true facism is and so on . Or argue what true communism is . I care very little about politics in general so Im not gonna read books or long winded web sites

If lets say the Nazi parti had 1 idea of keeping the highways of your country in tip top shape and safe , And I agree with that . That doesnt make me a Nazi , since 99.999999999% of their other ideas  I dont support

If you call me a fascist Im gonna dissagre . Im from my understanding a Socialist or Capitalism Socialist . If I might have one or 2 ideas that agree with something in the Fascist Agenda  . Still doesnt make me a Fascist

Im sure communism has some good ideas , 1 maybe  10 . If I agree with this it does not make me a Communist

Im not sure who PEGIDA is , Im not a member , I know nothing about them . But Im  sure we can find something in their political agenda even you Alan would agree on . That dont make you a PEGIDA future member does it ? And I cant call you a supporter of them cause you agree with one or two points

you definitely pulled a textbook example of the friend argument.  I believe you have Jewish friends, I also believe that you support fascist/racist policies. These are not mutually exclusive. That's why other people in this thread have called you out, too.

So whats my defence here ?  first time Tufty called me a Nazi , I said no , Second time he called me a Nazi , I explained my political views .
The third time I got called a Nazi . I Explain its impossible for me to be a Nazi , I have friends who are jewish , Ive had a girlfriend who was Jewish. Ive been to Israel and Tel Aviv multiple times . And then you accuse me for using the friend defence ?


What more can I say to defend myself ? Should I lie or not bring up that It would be imposable for me to be a Nazi or Anti Semite ?

Its like accusing somebody of being a homophone , and then refuse to accept and claim he is using the friend defence , when he is gay
and has gay friends , and is married to somebody who is gay

I want your Advice here Alan , next time somebody randomly accuses me of being a Nazi , even after Ive said No , explained my political views , and explains things about my social life with jewish people

[Garth Marenghi]

So for Garth Marenghi

Expand Quote

So your grandparents have a history with jews and you have jewish friends. Sure, guess that works as a refute to being called a racist. Supporting Israel and it's policies (to some degree you're not willing to explain, just not zealously?) is understandable, too. It's just that your "I'm not a racist but..." approach to this discussion is bewildering.

[close]

Im not sure if you are trolling , But I used it as a explanation and then wrote 2 times more that it was a defence of being called a Nazi . Not sure why you bring it up as a defence for not being racist . What race am I supposed to be racist against ? Syria and Afghanistan is not a race
Sweden is not a race

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What I asked though was the reason behind your personal detachment from human beings in a dire situation. You are not the whole country of Sweden (Tufty not Greece, Alan certainly not the UK considering he's not from there...) nor am I questioning your ability to be empathic. Inability to relate on the other hand...

[close]

Well where does it end ? Ive brought up Africa many times in this thread . Should Sweden rescue all the people in need in Africa ? what about Asia ? Many live in horrible conditions in Asia . Many live with war in the Middle east ?  Do you feel attached to all these people ?.

Imagine Sweden is a boat . it can fit 50 people , or lets say 50 refugees . Now there is about 1 million refugees in the water . Sure it would be nice to save all 1 million , but we can only fit 50 people . Are we evil people cause we only saved 50 ? even if saving 51 will sink the boat ?

I was saying it before we closed the boarder , Sweden cant / shouldn't take in more people . Alot in this thread said we would be fine and about a week later Sweden closed its borders cause we couldnt take in more

And sure Im not Sweden BUT I live in Sweden and pay taxes in Sweden . To a government I voted for . The green party is part of the ruling government and has a say in what happens in Sweden .

Honestly forgot to modify an important missing word in there earlier. Sorry about that. I'm not claiming you to be a nazi, just to be clear. Would you prefer that people politically correctly said that you're somewhat prejudiced?

You're going on and on with the same rhetoric while dodging or not understanding the actual questions I'm asking. You're also fucking reaching with that 50 to 1000000 odds, despite how metaphorical of an example you're trying to give.

[Garth Marenghi]

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I knew you wouldn't understand. My point was that just because Denmark is a welfare state doesn't mean that their polices against the refugees don't smack of fascism, hence my parallel with the fascist welfare state.
I never called you a Nazi, but you definitely support fascist ideas. You also seem to have a very narrow understanding of fascism, and seem incapable of seeing the big picture, so, as someone mentioned, you are a prime example of a PEGIDA supporter, hence the photo I posted earlier.

[close]

Its about % isnt it . You cant call the Danish government fascist if they their direction is 99% socialist , but do 1 thing reminiscing of something fascist, Id doesnt make it a fascist goverment  . When people bring up fascism and a fascist state I, Monty think Italy in the late 30s and early 40s . Mussolini

Im not gonna go in on a political major level about what true facism is and so on . Or argue what true communism is . I care very little about politics in general so Im not gonna read books or long winded web sites

If lets say the Nazi parti had 1 idea of keeping the highways of your country in tip top shape and safe , And I agree with that . That doesnt make me a Nazi , since 99.999999999% of their other ideas  I dont support

If you call me a fascist Im gonna dissagre . Im from my understanding a Socialist or Capitalism Socialist . If I might have one or 2 ideas that agree with something in the Fascist Agenda  . Still doesnt make me a Fascist

Im sure communism has some good ideas , 1 maybe  10 . If I agree with this it does not make me a Communist

Im not sure who PEGIDA is , Im not a member , I know nothing about them . But Im  sure we can find something in their political agenda even you Alan would agree on . That dont make you a PEGIDA future member does it ? And I cant call you a supporter of them cause you agree with one or two points

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you definitely pulled a textbook example of the friend argument.  I believe you have Jewish friends, I also believe that you support fascist/racist policies. These are not mutually exclusive. That's why other people in this thread have called you out, too.

[close]

So whats my defence here ?  first time Tufty called me a Nazi , I said no , Second time he called me a Nazi , I explained my political views .
The third time I got called a Nazi . I Explain its impossible for me to be a Nazi , I have friends who are jewish , Ive had a girlfriend who was Jewish. Ive been to Israel and Tel Aviv multiple times . And then you accuse me for using the friend defence ?


What more can I say to defend myself ? Should I lie or not bring up that It would be imposable for me to be a Nazi or Anti Semite ?

Its like accusing somebody of being a homophone , and then refuse to accept and claim he is using the friend defence , when he is gay
and has gay friends , and is married to somebody who is gay

I want your Advice here Alan , next time somebody randomly accuses me of being a Nazi , even after Ive said No , explained my political views , and explains things about my social life with jewish people

Fixed it. Your intuitive percents and numbers are a pretty fallible source of information then, wouldn't you agree?

[Monty Burns]

Honestly forgot to modify an important missing word in there earlier. Sorry about that. I'm not claiming you to be a nazi, just to be clear.
Would you prefer that people politically correctly said that you're somewhat prejudiced?

This might be a english issue but are you not basicly calling me a nazi again ?   " Look I wont call you a  nazi , lets call you something ells "
Basicly , "Hey I wont call you a whore , lets call you a bitch in stead "?

And being a human being I would pretty much be called anything but a Nazi since its one of the worst things you can be called

Why not just call me Monty , Monty who depending on the issue  has political views to the right and to the left and in the middle

You're going on and on with the same rhetoric while dodging or not understanding the actual questions I'm asking.
You're also fucking reaching with that 50 to 1000000 odds, despite how metaphorical of an example you're trying to give

I understood and answered your question . Im saying Sweden is saving alot of people , more then many other countries put together . But we cant save all of them ,
cause its gonna affect Sweden to a degree where we would need to be saved ourselves

And why nitpick on small things like the numbers ? you expect me to figure out how many people around the world would need to be rescued from political , social , environmental ,
health , war  situations ? I just wanted to make a quick example of how I view things

Fixed it. Your intuitive percents and numbers are a pretty fallible source of information then, wouldn't you agree?

No , cause every time I do specific numbers or quote somebody I future the news article and source . The reason to I disagree that Denmark is a
Fascist State is cause I cant find any official or or normal source that it is a fascist state

What government or politician has claimed that Denmark is a fascist state ? .

Denmark has a multi-party system, with two strong parties, and four or five other significant parties. No single party has held an absolute majority in the Folketing
since the beginning of the 20th century.[1] Since only four post-war coalition governments have enjoyed a majority, government bills rarely become law without negotiations and
compromise with both supporting and opposition parties. Hence the Folketing tends to be more powerful than legislatures in other EU countries. The Constitution does not grant the judiciary
power of judicial review of legislation, however the courts have asserted this power with the consent of the other branches of government. Since there are no constitutional or administrative
courts, the Supreme Court deals with a constitutional dimension.

So yes there might be a fascist party in the government , but does that mean the majority of seats are fascist ? .
Unless they are you cant call the Danish government a fascist government over a few votes , over a few laws or ideas

I dont have to understand all things in the government or all political parties . I can listen to people smarter then me and who works with this and get the facts .
I can ask people who work in media and politics , Hey is Denmark a fascist country ?

[Garth Marenghi]

Expand Quote

Honestly forgot to modify an important missing word in there earlier. Sorry about that. I'm not claiming you to be a nazi, just to be clear.
Would you prefer that people politically correctly said that you're somewhat prejudiced?

[close]

This might be a english issue but are you not basicly calling me a nazi again ?   " Look I wont call you a  nazi , lets call you something ells "
Basicly , "Hey I wont call you a whore , lets call you a bitch in stead "?

And being a human being I would pretty much be called anything but a Nazi since its one of the worst things you can be called

Why not just call me Monty , Monty who depending on the issue  has political views to the right and to the left and in the middle

Something definitely gets lost in translation then, yes. At no point have I said you're a nazi.

Putting the whole topic at hand aside, you honestly can't think that you're not prejudiced to some degree? There isn't a single adult human being in the world who isn't. Being a racist isn't synonymous with being prejudiced, you must understand that?

Expand Quote

You're going on and on with the same rhetoric while dodging or not understanding the actual questions I'm asking.
You're also fucking reaching with that 50 to 1000000 odds, despite how metaphorical of an example you're trying to give

[close]

I understood and answered your question . Im saying Sweden is saving alot of people , more then many other countries put together . But we cant save all of them ,
cause its gonna affect Sweden to a degree where we would need to be saved ourselves

And why nitpick on small things like the numbers ? you expect me to figure out how many people around the world would need to be rescued from political , social , environmental ,
health , war  situations ? I just wanted to make a quick example of how I view things

You obviously didn't. We're aware of what Sweden is doing and it's still not what I asked.

Expand Quote

Fixed it. Your intuitive percents and numbers are a pretty fallible source of information then, wouldn't you agree?

[close]

No , cause every time I do specific numbers or quote somebody I future the news article and source . The reason to I disagree that Denmark is a
Fascist State is cause I cant find any official or or normal source that it is a fascist state

What government or politician has claimed that Denmark is a fascist state ? .

Yet you brush aside other shared information with a "Yeah I don't care for books or politics." What a double standard.

Expand Quote

Denmark has a multi-party system, with two strong parties, and four or five other significant parties. No single party has held an absolute majority in the Folketing
since the beginning of the 20th century.[1] Since only four post-war coalition governments have enjoyed a majority, government bills rarely become law without negotiations and
compromise with both supporting and opposition parties. Hence the Folketing tends to be more powerful than legislatures in other EU countries. The Constitution does not grant the judiciary
power of judicial review of legislation, however the courts have asserted this power with the consent of the other branches of government. Since there are no constitutional or administrative
courts, the Supreme Court deals with a constitutional dimension.

[close]

So yes there might be a fascist party in the government , but does that mean the majority of seats are fascist ? .
Unless they are you cant call the Danish government a fascist government over a few votes , over a few laws or ideas

I dont have to understand all things in the government or all political parties . I can listen to people smarter then me and who works with this and get the facts .
I can ask people who work in media and politics , Hey is Denmark a fascist country ?

I'm not exactly qualified to chime in on Danish politics or Denmark's political system, maybe Alan or Tufty can properly respond to this. If your view of fascism is Mussolini's Italy in the 30s and you gather proper information by just asking people (Is that tabloid media and/or getting it straight from the horse's mouth?), neither are you. It's acceptable to acknowledge this.

[Monty Burns]

Putting the whole topic at hand aside, you honestly can't think that you're not prejudiced to some degree? There isn't a single adult human being in the world who isn't. Being a racist isn't synonymous with being prejudiced, you must understand that?

If you believe all adult human being in the world have prejudiced , why ask me if Im prejudiced ? . And Im not defending if Im prejudice or not . Im defending not being Racist , Fascist , Nazi , Right wing or a member of PEGIDA

You obviously didn't. We're aware of what Sweden is doing and it's still not what I asked.

Just ask the question again then

Yet you brush aside other shared information with a "Yeah I don't care for books or politics." What a double standard.

Theres a huge difference between me posting a quote from a story and then sharing the link . Then having to read a book about political science and understanding sudden nuances of communism and fascism . Or listening to a lecture about it

I post something to show my point , and share the link so nobody can say I made it up . If you google "Fascism " you can find a few defections about what fascism is . But if you want to understand small nuances and suddle details you have to read books . Ask people who know alot on the issue

Tufty tells me Im a nazi , I say no , He calls me a nazi again , should the second time make me question my political ideologies and have to go read books about Nazi ideologies ?  No I know enough about Nazis to know Im not a nazi

Alan tells me Im fascist / have fascist views . I post the definition of what a fascist is . And instead of giving me a explanation why he thinks im a fascist , with facts . He just say go read this , go read that

I'm not exactly qualified to chime in on Danish politics or Denmark's political system, maybe Alan or Tufty can properly respond to this. If your view of fascism is Mussolini's Italy in the 30s and you gather proper information by just asking people (Is that tabloid media and/or getting it straight from the horse's mouth?), neither are you. It's acceptable to acknowledge this.

Im no expert on Denmark or swedes governments either . When did I claim that ? . But you can easy look at what parties have powers in those governments . How many % do the different parties control ? how many seats do those parties have ?

Which of those parties claim to be Fascist , Socialist , Communist , and so on . Left , center , Right wing .

If the Fascist Party in Denmark had 10% of the government and the rest was Socialist parties . Does that make Denmark a country ruled By fascists ?

[Esquivel]

Alan

Sure Ill look into it abit more . But just like I said . You are backing Tufty , who hates the west , who hates corporation . Who think all that is evil in this world is the west and corporation . Who thinks its modern slavery and the reason of millions of deaths

but is currently applying for a job at a major corporation . If you dont realize what kind of traitor to his cause and scum tufty is .

And did you really try to use " Im not a XXX . my friend is a XXX " against me ?  . You really think Im a nazi and Im lying about having
lived in  Tel Aviv , having a jewish gf , or having jewish friends ?   At the start of these threads we all agreed to have a nice calm
discussion . And now you are pulling shit like that ?


So for Everybody

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Fascist
a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition

[close]

How does Sweden , Denmark or me fit under this label ?  I vote for the Green Party in sweden every 4 years . I back high taxes to assist social programs in sweden and I think high taxation helps the country . Im for 4 year elections . Im for the EU and for being able to move across
the EU and get a job where you want .

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Nazi
a member of the National Socialist German Workers' Party, which controlled Germany from 1933 to 1945 under Adolf Hitler and advocated totalitarian government, territorial expansion, anti-Semitism, and Aryan supremacy, all these leading directly to World War II and the Holocaust.

[close]

Im not a member of the National Socialist German Workers' Party and I wasnt even alive in 1933 or 1945 . I dont agree with  a
totalitarian government , Im not suggesting Sweden should expand its territories , Im not a Anti Semite or promoting Aryan Supremacy

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Neo Nazi
a person who belongs to a political organization whose beliefs are inspired by or reminiscent of Nazism.

[close]

Well I dont believe in any of the old nazi belives , so I cant believe in neo nazi values either


I hope that clears some stuff up . Ive lived and worked in 8 countries for the past 10 years , I work as a chef so Ive worked and been friends
of chefs from maybe 20+ countries of every race and every religion .


So for Garth Marenghi

Expand Quote

So your grandparents have a history with jews and you have jewish friends. Sure, guess that works as a refute to being a racist. Supporting Israel and it's policies (to some degree you're not willing to explain, just not zealously?) is understandable, too. It's just that your "I'm not a racist but..." approach to this discussion is bewildering.

[close]

Im not sure if you are trolling , But I used it as a explanation and then wrote 2 times more that it was a defence of being called a Nazi . Not sure why you bring it up as a defence for not being racist . What race am I supposed to be racist against ? Syria and Afghanistan is not a race
Sweden is not a race

Expand Quote

What I asked though was the reason behind your personal detachment from human beings in a dire situation. You are not the whole country of Sweden (Tufty not Greece, Alan certainly not the UK considering he's not from there...) nor am I questioning your ability to be empathic. Inability to relate on the other hand...

[close]

Well where does it end ? Ive brought up Africa many times in this thread . Should Sweden rescue all the people in need in Africa ? what about Asia ? Many live in horrible conditions in Asia . Many live with war in the Middle east ?  Do you feel attached to all these people ?.

Imagine Sweden is a boat . it can fit 50 people , or lets say 50 refugees . Now there is about 1 million refugees in the water . Sure it would be nice to save all 1 million , but we can only fit 50 people . Are we evil people cause we only saved 50 ? even if saving 51 will sink the boat ?

I was saying it before we closed the boarder , Sweden cant / shouldn't take in more people . Alot in this thread said we would be fine and about a week later Sweden closed its borders cause we couldnt take in more

And sure Im not Sweden BUT I live in Sweden and pay taxes in Sweden . To a government I voted for . The green party is part of the ruling government and has a say in what happens in Sweden .


And where is Alan from ?

i am greek and have lived in the uk for a few years and have seen how life is there (and europe in general). i can now make my comparisons between corporation presence in europe and corporation presence in greece. i grew up in a society where most people owned their own businesses and generally hired local people for other jobs and everything went fine. people were bosses of themselves or had someone they knew personally as boss. recent governments  (past 40 years) have made my country go bankrupt so that what i described earlier could change. they introduced big corpos (canadian mining companies, dutch brewing companies, american/french energy groups, the works) and made life for all small local businesses hell. having lived in a society like the british where everyone is an "emploee" and has to wear a suit all day, take urine tests and report to some tosser manager, where nothing is excused by "the system"i too have come to really hate corporations and "the west" even though i am a part of it. now, apart from talking shit in internet forums i also have to feed myself. instead of working for a big corporation in greece (with pityful wages - around 600e/month for an engineer who now has to pay about 1000e/month for his licence, i know it doesnt make sense but this how fucked and corrupt the greek government is) i would 100% prefer to work for a corporation in the uk for triple the money. like Tufty, i too hate the corpos, although i dig the nice life that western living offers. i am no taliban, but if some foreign bankster invades my area and tries to pollute it by operating a goldmine then i would be of the first people to go burn the fucking thing down. Monty, hating corpos is a good thing. you have just not lived life without them being present and probably cant do without a coke a day.