Author Topic: Covid vaccine  (Read 10911 times)

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Alan

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Re: Covid vaccine
« Reply #60 on: December 24, 2020, 11:18:37 AM »
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I just recently found out that Phase 3 medical trials - the phase prior to usually consist of testing the vaccine on around 3000 patients. The Pfizer Biontech one was tested on over 20000 patients. The large sample size is to ensure safety, which is normal practice and has been used in trials when meds were intended for vulnerable groups, for example infants.
[close]

thanks for posting that. do you have a source? it would be cool to be able to share with others. thanks

"In the prelicensure studies, it is recommended to enroll approximately 3000 subjects.[3] However, where Phase III studies are designed with safety as the primary end point, huge sample sizes are seen, e.g., >37000 subjects were enrolled in a 7-valent pneumococcal conjugate vaccine study,[45] while for Rotarix™[46] and RotaTeq™[47] ~63,000 and ~70,000 infant subjects, respectively, were assessed to detect the risk of intussusception.

If the phase III results demonstrate efficacy and safety, the manufacturer of the vaccine can submit an application to the national regulatory authority to license and market the product."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4944327/

Pfizer's trial involved +40000 patients, but around half were given a placebo, iirc.
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Re: Covid vaccine
« Reply #61 on: December 25, 2020, 09:47:40 AM »
I wish I had y’alls faith in the government and pharmaceutical companies looking out for our best interests, but based on their prior behavior that doesn’t seem very likely.

Here’s a couple examples:

During prohibition, the US government purposefully poisoned bootleg alcohol and killed over 10,000 people (https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/2014/8/8/5975605/alcohol-prohibition-poison).

From 1932-72, the US Public Health Service and the Centers for Disease Control conducted the Tuskegee Study of Untreated Syphilis in the African American Males (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_Syphilis_Study). The purpose of this study was to observe the natural history of untreated syphilis; the African-American men who participated in the study were told that they were receiving free health care from the federal government of the United States, but were deceived by the Public Health Service, who never informed subjects of their diagnosis and disguised placebos, ineffective methods, and diagnostic procedures as treatment. The study was supposed to last six months, but they extended it to 40 years, and the only reason it was terminated was because someone leaked it to the press.

There’s a ton of this shit that has been done throughout the years.

Long history here (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unethical_human_experimentation_in_the_United_States)

“The experiments include the exposure of humans to many chemical and biological weapons (including infection with deadly or debilitating diseases), human radiation experiments, injection of toxic and radioactive chemicals, surgical experiments, interrogation and torture experiments, tests involving mind-altering substances, and a wide variety of others. Many of these tests were performed on children, the sick, and mentally disabled individuals, often under the guise of "medical treatment". In many of the studies, a large portion of the subjects were poor, racial minorities, or prisoners.”

As far as Pfizer goes, they have a long unethical history of bribery, obfuscation, poisoning, and have killed many people with their products.

Good background here (https://www.corp-research.org/pfizer), but probably the best example of how low these people are was their testing of a meningitis antibiotic on children in Nigeria without their consent that lead to the death of some of them, and a 15-year legal battle to reach a settlement for their families (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdullahi_v._Pfizer,_Inc.).

I worked for a law firm in 2008 that represented Pfizer, and day after day read incredibly sad documents about people whose lives had been fucked forever because of them taking Pfizer’s arthritis drug Celebrex. Pfizer knew the drug had some serious side effects, but because they were making so much money off of it there was no way it was going to be taken off the market. It’s still being sold to this day.

Honestly, I really don’t understand why anyone would trust governments or pharmaceutical corporations at this point. They have shown time and time again that they don’t give a fuck about us and see us simply as a commodity.

Ok so how are these scenarios related to the vaccine other than medicine has been bad/sketchy before so they bad now. This isn’t an argument you’re making.  You’re cherry picking scenarios unrelated to the development of this specific vaccine, Maybe this an example of an apples to oranges argument

I forget the name for the fallacy, but you’re mentioning a lot of other shit as evidence for being skeptical of this specific case.

Your posts are painful to read

nothing's been the since same

S.

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Re: Covid vaccine
« Reply #62 on: December 25, 2020, 12:17:06 PM »
Yes pharmaceutical companies have done some terrible things. Governments too. Still, I don‘t think they‘d be able to afford being wrong in this case. There is so much at stake: public health, but more importantly (for governments and most larger corporations) political stability and economic growth.

I am a bit skeptical about side effects (almost all medicine has side effects), but I will take it once it is made available to me.

Dinglenuts

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Re: Covid vaccine
« Reply #63 on: December 26, 2020, 07:54:10 AM »

From the CDC site. I would like to know more about the "unable to perform daily activities" ect. before making my decision. Interesting math though.

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Re: Covid vaccine
« Reply #64 on: December 26, 2020, 09:02:56 AM »
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Be interesting to see how they enforce vaccine if mandatory because so many people out there against it.  In my city, any healthcare type job you have to provide proof of immunizations for mumps, measles, & rubella before getting hired. Think in the near future, covid vaccine be added to the list & non healthcare jobs will also require proof of covid vaccine too. Predict huge problems for forcing existing employees to get vaccine unless a new law is passed. Hard to imagine your employer giving you an ultimatum of getting the shot or be fired. New hires would be so easy to enforce to get vaccine.   
[close]
Enforce..mandatory...require..ultimatum.. Any subject about altering your body that may include these words could understandably be met with skepticism.

i'm wondering if there is any other conversation regarding people's choices about their own bodies, where most of us who post in SLAP regularly, would find these kinds of terms acceptable? although i know there are some significant differences between these situations, perhaps inevitably the abortion conversation came to mind--from the Amnesty International site:

"Being able to make our own decisions about our health, body and sexual life is a basic human right.
Whoever you are, wherever you live, you have the right to make these choices without fear, violence or discrimination.

Yet all over the world, people are bullied, discriminated against and arrested, [refused employment?] simply for making choices about their bodies and their lives..."

if the conversation could remain civil, it would be interesting to think about why this "basic human right" wouldn't apply to every situation, including COVID and the vaccines. i know that the conversation is different when we're talking about something that is potentially harmful to others--and not just ourselves--but a "human right" is a "human right," isn't it? and if/when circumstances do come about that require us to rethink/deny any "basic human right," it should not be done hastily or lightly.

i'm torn on the vaccine and i'm glad i will not be one of the people to get priority right away anyways--like others, i'm going to wait. i teach at the university level, and have been fortunate to teach "remotely" and continue to work this whole time...i understand this is not the case for many people. i'm not taking any of the sides here, because i am fortunate and i am not on the front-line or a first-responder or anything like that.

and i say all of this after losing my mother to COVID in late October--i had a mild/moderate bout with it myself while she was fighting for her life in the hospital (in isolation)...i had to have two of the classes i was teaching reassigned to another instructor, all while trying to talk to the hospital and make decisions regarding my mother...seriously the hardest three weeks of my life. i caught it while taking care of her the first few days she had it, before we had to call 911 a few days in...so i do not take any of this lightly, but i also do not get vaccines either, and since i have a bit of freedom to do so, i will wait.

by the way, my mom was 77 and had diabetes, so we knew early on when we got her positive test results that she did not have a good chance, but i still can not believe what that vicious fucking virus did to her in under two weeks--seriously y'all, watch out for all of the especially vulnerable people in your lives, they can not be cautious enough...

Dinglenuts

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Re: Covid vaccine
« Reply #65 on: December 26, 2020, 09:09:54 AM »
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Be interesting to see how they enforce vaccine if mandatory because so many people out there against it.  In my city, any healthcare type job you have to provide proof of immunizations for mumps, measles, & rubella before getting hired. Think in the near future, covid vaccine be added to the list & non healthcare jobs will also require proof of covid vaccine too. Predict huge problems for forcing existing employees to get vaccine unless a new law is passed. Hard to imagine your employer giving you an ultimatum of getting the shot or be fired. New hires would be so easy to enforce to get vaccine.   
[close]
Enforce..mandatory...require..ultimatum.. Any subject about altering your body that may include these words could understandably be met with skepticism.
[close]

i'm wondering if there is any other conversation regarding people's choices about their own bodies, where most of us who post in SLAP regularly, would find these kinds of terms acceptable? although i know there are some significant differences between these situations, perhaps inevitably the abortion conversation came to mind--from the Amnesty International site:

"Being able to make our own decisions about our health, body and sexual life is a basic human right.
Whoever you are, wherever you live, you have the right to make these choices without fear, violence or discrimination.

Yet all over the world, people are bullied, discriminated against and arrested, [refused employment?] simply for making choices about their bodies and their lives..."

if the conversation could remain civil, it would be interesting to think about why this "basic human right" wouldn't apply to every situation, including COVID and the vaccines. i know that the conversation is different when we're talking about something that is potentially harmful to others--and not just ourselves--but a "human right" is a "human right," isn't it? and if/when circumstances do come about that require us to rethink/deny any "basic human right," it should not be done hastily or lightly.

i'm torn on the vaccine and i'm glad i will not be one of the people to get priority right away anyways--like others, i'm going to wait. i teach at the university level, and have been fortunate to teach "remotely" and continue to work this whole time...i understand this is not the case for many people. i'm not taking any of the sides here, because i am fortunate and i am not on the front-line or a first-responder or anything like that.

and i say all of this after losing my mother to COVID in late October--i had a mild/moderate bout with it myself while she was fighting for her life in the hospital (in isolation)...i had to have two of the classes i was teaching reassigned to another instructor, all while trying to talk to the hospital and make decisions regarding my mother...seriously the hardest three weeks of my life. i caught it while taking care of her the first few days she had it, before we had to call 911 a few days in...so i do not take any of this lightly, but i also do not get vaccines either, and since i have a bit of freedom to do so, i will wait.

by the way, my mom was 77 and had diabetes, so we knew early on when we got her positive test results that she did not have a good chance, but i still can not believe what that vicious fucking virus did to her in under two weeks--seriously y'all, watch out for all of the especially vulnerable people in your lives, they can not be cautious enough...
You are very well spoken individual man, very sorry about your mother.

tuesday

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Re: Covid vaccine
« Reply #66 on: December 26, 2020, 10:15:48 AM »
Expand Quote
Expand Quote
Be interesting to see how they enforce vaccine if mandatory because so many people out there against it.  In my city, any healthcare type job you have to provide proof of immunizations for mumps, measles, & rubella before getting hired. Think in the near future, covid vaccine be added to the list & non healthcare jobs will also require proof of covid vaccine too. Predict huge problems for forcing existing employees to get vaccine unless a new law is passed. Hard to imagine your employer giving you an ultimatum of getting the shot or be fired. New hires would be so easy to enforce to get vaccine.   
[close]
Enforce..mandatory...require..ultimatum.. Any subject about altering your body that may include these words could understandably be met with skepticism.
[close]

i'm wondering if there is any other conversation regarding people's choices about their own bodies, where most of us who post in SLAP regularly, would find these kinds of terms acceptable? although i know there are some significant differences between these situations, perhaps inevitably the abortion conversation came to mind--from the Amnesty International site:

"Being able to make our own decisions about our health, body and sexual life is a basic human right.
Whoever you are, wherever you live, you have the right to make these choices without fear, violence or discrimination.

Yet all over the world, people are bullied, discriminated against and arrested, [refused employment?] simply for making choices about their bodies and their lives..."

if the conversation could remain civil, it would be interesting to think about why this "basic human right" wouldn't apply to every situation, including COVID and the vaccines. i know that the conversation is different when we're talking about something that is potentially harmful to others--and not just ourselves--but a "human right" is a "human right," isn't it? and if/when circumstances do come about that require us to rethink/deny any "basic human right," it should not be done hastily or lightly.

i'm torn on the vaccine and i'm glad i will not be one of the people to get priority right away anyways--like others, i'm going to wait. i teach at the university level, and have been fortunate to teach "remotely" and continue to work this whole time...i understand this is not the case for many people. i'm not taking any of the sides here, because i am fortunate and i am not on the front-line or a first-responder or anything like that.

and i say all of this after losing my mother to COVID in late October--i had a mild/moderate bout with it myself while she was fighting for her life in the hospital (in isolation)...i had to have two of the classes i was teaching reassigned to another instructor, all while trying to talk to the hospital and make decisions regarding my mother...seriously the hardest three weeks of my life. i caught it while taking care of her the first few days she had it, before we had to call 911 a few days in...so i do not take any of this lightly, but i also do not get vaccines either, and since i have a bit of freedom to do so, i will wait.

by the way, my mom was 77 and had diabetes, so we knew early on when we got her positive test results that she did not have a good chance, but i still can not believe what that vicious fucking virus did to her in under two weeks--seriously y'all, watch out for all of the especially vulnerable people in your lives, they can not be cautious enough...
and get yourselves vaccinated

Alan

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Re: Covid vaccine
« Reply #67 on: December 26, 2020, 10:36:57 AM »
but a "human right" is a "human right," isn't it?

Is there an accepted definition of human rights that allows you to potentially kill other people? Also, instead of bringing abortion into this (not even in the same ballpark), maybe look at more closely related examples. For example, knowingly spreading HIV is a criminal offense in many countries and no one is talking about "my body, my choice" in those cases.
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muntcuscle

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Re: Covid vaccine
« Reply #68 on: December 26, 2020, 04:14:04 PM »
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but a "human right" is a "human right," isn't it?
[close]

Is there an accepted definition of human rights that allows you to potentially kill other people? Also, instead of bringing abortion into this (not even in the same ballpark), maybe look at more closely related examples. For example, knowingly spreading HIV is a criminal offense in many countries and no one is talking about "my body, my choice" in those cases.

Self defense?


eranka

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Re: Covid vaccine
« Reply #69 on: December 27, 2020, 05:50:39 AM »
working in healthcare i got the first shot of the Pfizer vaccine last week, didnt feel any side affects apart from a mild pain where i got the shot a day later.
i would highly suggest getting vaccinated and im pretty frustrated with the opinions my friends hold, most people who are opposed to getting vaccinated in my friend circles are ignorant and have no idea how vaccines or science in general work, to them everything is a big conspiracy and nothing is as it seems. people have hard time believing anything right now and i dont blame them, without a pretty solid background in biology or medicine its hard to know whats bullshit and whats real. idiots are louder than doctors.
some of those conspiracies are crazy, a friend actually argued with me that masks increase your chance of contracting covid by a 1300%  (!!!!) because "youre breathing air through a dirty filter'. i told him i go into a covid ward and handle patients regularly and never got sick because i keep precautions like a mask and eye protection and sent him actual research about masks by legit medical practitioners to which he replied 'well, you never got sick because the whole thing is a hoax".
skeptics should get guided tours through corona wards. covid is a bitch and if it gets you hard youre fucked. ive had 40ish yo patients that had to get rehabilitated just to start walking again after 2 months in a hospital bed, 23 yo girl who lost her baby in the 6th month of her pregnancy, people dying and people losing independency because of it.
 for most people its not a big problem, but please get vaccinated, its not just for you, its for the people around you.

and about "free choice".... if you want to live in a society you have to comply to some rules. theres a reason why we dont have TB, Polio and hepatitis anymore
« Last Edit: December 27, 2020, 06:05:03 AM by eranka »

Alan

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Re: Covid vaccine
« Reply #70 on: December 27, 2020, 06:36:12 AM »
Expand Quote
Expand Quote
but a "human right" is a "human right," isn't it?
[close]

Is there an accepted definition of human rights that allows you to potentially kill other people? Also, instead of bringing abortion into this (not even in the same ballpark), maybe look at more closely related examples. For example, knowingly spreading HIV is a criminal offense in many countries and no one is talking about "my body, my choice" in those cases.
[close]

Self defense?


Although you might not go to prison for self defense, from what I understand it is not considered a human right, at least not by human rights organizations.
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layzieyez

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Re: Covid vaccine
« Reply #71 on: December 27, 2020, 08:00:39 AM »
idiots are louder than doctors.
And the internet gave them a perfect soapbox to stand on and network with their fellow idiots.

I'm sorry your friends suck at this. Stay safe out there. It's so frustrating because these morons can't understand that we can't go back to any semblance of normalcy without everyone wising up and learning to ignore youtube "experts". All they are getting is misled for profit. Just for some fucking views on their YT and clicks on a website. Capitalism still finding new and fucked up ways to kill us.
I take everything I said back. The board hit me in the nuts for the first time ever today, because i was wearing these shits.

JANUS

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Re: Covid vaccine
« Reply #72 on: December 27, 2020, 08:10:36 AM »
Thank you, Eranka.
If you can't handle me at my Marc Johnson, you don't deserve me at my Bobby Puleo.

pica

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Re: Covid vaccine
« Reply #73 on: December 27, 2020, 11:59:17 AM »
The people who say they won‘t get the shot will be the first in line if they can‘t go to springBreak, the bar, the movies, the club without it.

So although i‘m all for mandatory vac im sure the problem will at least solve itself if people without vac have to  follow restricions.

We just forgot how terrible desease are.

You should have told people in the 1960ies not to get smallpox shot because you‘re afraid of the longterm issues....

Its ok to be scared of something you dont understand, yet least people understand how a plane works but still use it.


Also people say they are scared of longterm issues, yet the hold a smartphone to their brain for a few hours a day no questions asked (and NO i don‘t think smarphones are a health risk).

I don‘t know whats inside...! - eats at a dodgy fast food place the next day.

Pharma industry makes much more money from meds against chronical deseases and pain killers people take on a daily basis for decades if years. There is no cash in vaccination, financally pharma companies couldn‘t care less about making one.

Just get the shot so we can end this shit.

I‘m getting mine in late january, this is gonna be the best late christmas present.



« Last Edit: December 27, 2020, 12:07:03 PM by pica »

sexualhelon

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Re: Covid vaccine
« Reply #74 on: December 27, 2020, 12:34:12 PM »
I'd like to think that people would take it, generally speaking, but they're skeptical.

At this point you can't blame your common person for being skeptical - at least I can't. The rules, regulations, and restrictions vary by country, state, region, etc... all the way down to what some random grocery store thinks is best. I can't say for a fact but I'd bet you that people living in countries where the government explained things well, kept people informed, and implemented appropriate standards are less skeptical in taking the vaccine.

People want doctor's and professionals to stand behind it, take it before they do, and make sure it's safe. If the consensus is 100k people have taken it then I think given the global shit show everyone wants to hear how those people felt afterwards. And who were those people? If they felt like shit, in what way?

So if people would take it if they felt safe about it, would you not say it's the country's governments responsibility to make people feel safe about it? I mean, sure, in a lot of places they could force people to take it without giving any explanation but whatever political party - if it's a country where that matters - would definitely lose trust.

Going from one lockdown to the next, these restrictions to those restrictions, and saying they'll last one week then it lasts 9 months.... I'm just saying I can see how it's created skeptics that weren't/aren't in the anti vaxxer group. A lot of people view politicians as professional liars anyway so, yeah,  distrust was already there from the beginning.

Vaccines are all death and destruction - they've eradicated diseases like polio, tetanus, rubella, etc...  and one being created for Covid-19 so quickly will be good in the end. Hopefully be better prepared for it next time around.

Sure, there will most likely be restrictions that sort of "mandate" people to get it which, imho, is better than outright forcing people to do so in a way. Not sure if it's true, but I even read about some countries thinking that they'd pay people to get it. I bet a lot of people being vocal about not getting it would suddenly go quiet if they got paid X amount to receive it.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents live on a skateboard forum.

pica

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Re: Covid vaccine
« Reply #75 on: December 27, 2020, 12:55:41 PM »
I'd like to think that people would take it, generally speaking, but they're skeptical.

At this point you can't blame your common person for being skeptical - at least I can't. The rules, regulations, and restrictions vary by country, state, region, etc... all the way down to what some random grocery store thinks is best. I can't say for a fact but I'd bet you that people living in countries where the government explained things well, kept people informed, and implemented appropriate standards are less skeptical in taking the vaccine.

People want doctor's and professionals to stand behind it, take it before they do, and make sure it's safe. If the consensus is 100k people have taken it then I think given the global shit show everyone wants to hear how those people felt afterwards. And who were those people? If they felt like shit, in what way?

So if people would take it if they felt safe about it, would you not say it's the country's governments responsibility to make people feel safe about it? I mean, sure, in a lot of places they could force people to take it without giving any explanation but whatever political party - if it's a country where that matters - would definitely lose trust.

Going from one lockdown to the next, these restrictions to those restrictions, and saying they'll last one week then it lasts 9 months.... I'm just saying I can see how it's created skeptics that weren't/aren't in the anti vaxxer group. A lot of people view politicians as professional liars anyway so, yeah,  distrust was already there from the beginning.

Vaccines are all death and destruction - they've eradicated diseases like polio, tetanus, rubella, etc...  and one being created for Covid-19 so quickly will be good in the end. Hopefully be better prepared for it next time around.

Sure, there will most likely be restrictions that sort of "mandate" people to get it which, imho, is better than outright forcing people to do so in a way. Not sure if it's true, but I even read about some countries thinking that they'd pay people to get it. I bet a lot of people being vocal about not getting it would suddenly go quiet if they got paid X amount to receive it.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents live on a skateboard forum.

Yes, it‘s ok to be sceptical, but i think if i have no clue about something i‘d rather listen to an expert/ official sorces on that field than whatsappLinks and youtube channels.


In the 18th hundred people got paid to get vaccinated.

Also countries who have been hit really hard have a higher acceptance. For example 80% of the italians are willing to get the shot, Also they run a really great ad campaign for it. (Although it gives me a black mirror vibe)

https://youtu.be/KtwDgx-L0so
« Last Edit: December 27, 2020, 02:24:21 PM by pica »

Dinglenuts

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Re: Covid vaccine
« Reply #76 on: December 27, 2020, 06:04:49 PM »
The people who say they won‘t get the shot will be the first in line if they can‘t go to springBreak, the bar, the movies, the club without it.

So although i‘m all for mandatory vac im sure the problem will at least solve itself if people without vac have to  follow restricions.

We just forgot how terrible desease are.

You should have told people in the 1960ies not to get smallpox shot because you‘re afraid of the longterm issues....

Its ok to be scared of something you dont understand, yet least people understand how a plane works but still use it.


Also people say they are scared of longterm issues, yet the hold a smartphone to their brain for a few hours a day no questions asked (and NO i don‘t think smarphones are a health risk).

I don‘t know whats inside...! - eats at a dodgy fast food place the next day.

Pharma industry makes much more money from meds against chronical deseases and pain killers people take on a daily basis for decades if years. There is no cash in vaccination, financally pharma companies couldn‘t care less about making one.

Just get the shot so we can end this shit.

I‘m getting mine in late january, this is gonna be the best late christmas present.
I could not get past the “I’m all for mandatory vaccinations” part. Who in the sweet fuck has the right to tell another human being what to with their body? That attitude is almost as scary as this virus. I started this thread in hopes of getting an “education” from somewhat like-minded people, I definitely could never see things like you do.. and I am thankful for that.

pica

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Re: Covid vaccine
« Reply #77 on: December 27, 2020, 09:50:32 PM »
Well many countries have and had mandatory vac. Its a big  part in history that brought us to where we are now.

Therefore im pro mandatory vac. Im sure its not gonna happen, but imho i think it wouldn‘t be a bad thing.

The problem is people who don‘t get the shot becaus they don’t want to do exactly that: they rule over the body and health of people who would get vac but simply Cant.

If its this or living with the pandemic and masks for many more years...
« Last Edit: December 28, 2020, 01:47:41 AM by pica »

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Re: Covid vaccine
« Reply #78 on: December 28, 2020, 12:48:24 AM »
Well many countries have and had mandatory vac. Its a big  part in history that brought us to where we are now.

Therefore im pro mandatory vac. Im sure its not gonna happen, but imho i think it wouldn‘t be a bad thing.

The problem is people who don‘t get the shot becaus they don’t want to do exactly that: the rule over the body and health of people who would get vac but simply Cant.

If its this or living with the pandemic and masks for many more years...

I think the vaccines that are now mandatory have had quite different timelines though. For instance, in Italy, polio, diphtheria, tetanus, hepatitis B, haemophilus influenzae B, measles, mumps, rubella, whooping cough, and chickenpox are all mandatory vaccinations. I guess I don't have to say Italy, I think those are the mandatory ones in most places and for good reason. At this point there's tons of data for those as well which show it's a small individual risk for the betterment of the whole population.

But mandatory is quite different than forced. Like who remembers if they even have those vaccinations? You probably got them as a child or remember checking on them before traveling to a country that says you must have them. But odds are you have them because they're usually enforced in ways such as you wouldn't have been allowed to attend public school without them.

So, basically, if you don't have those vaccinations you'll be denied access to many things that quasi force you into isolating yourself from the general population.  With those it's a little different than covid-19 - everyone's keeping a close eye on it.

I'm not anti-vaccine's but the idea of someone showing up at my door, holding me down, and forcing anything into me with a needle is pretty grim. I don't think that's how it would happen, probably more  like you get fined until you get it or something like that.  And even more likely that you just can't go anywhere without showing a vaccine certificate. I just think those are better alternatives than literally forcing people.

If I get it and then it allows me to travel freely again but some people are more comfortable staying isolated in their flat for 6 more months eating delivery then, hey, I'd say whatever floats your boat. Ultimately it's up to the government of wherever you live but I like the idea of at least having the illusion of personal choice.

pica

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Re: Covid vaccine
« Reply #79 on: December 28, 2020, 01:49:33 AM »
Quote
But mandatory is quite different than forced. Like who remembers if they even have those vaccinations? You probably got them as a child or remember checking on them before traveling to a country that says you must have them. But odds are you have them because they're usually enforced in ways such as you wouldn't have been allowed to attend public school without them.

Thats what i mean. As you said nobody will force a needle in your arm, but you might as well get fined over and over again or you can‘t go to school, work, you name it.

sexualhelon

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Re: Covid vaccine
« Reply #80 on: December 28, 2020, 02:59:53 AM »
Quote
Expand Quote
But mandatory is quite different than forced. Like who remembers if they even have those vaccinations? You probably got them as a child or remember checking on them before traveling to a country that says you must have them. But odds are you have them because they're usually enforced in ways such as you wouldn't have been allowed to attend public school without them.
[close]

Thats what i mean. As you said nobody will force a needle in your arm, but you might as well get fined over and over again or you can‘t go to school, work, you name it.

Eh, I don't think from an economical point of view that fining people for not getting it is the best take but I feel like I did read that somewhere.

On the not going to work or school bit, it'll be interesting to see how that evolves. Let's say there's an amazing employee who's been working from home during all of this. The vaccine comes out and the employer says, "we expect everyone to get this and come back to the office". Said employee says they plan  to wait it out and want to continue working remotely for the next 6 months. Will the employer fire them or allow it? Sort of a strange situation to imagine.

I also think there will be plenty of people who want to stay remote and ask from remote contracts once things go back to "normal". So sort of a side note, but it'll be interesting to see how remote working culture evolves from this.

The real veganshawn

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Re: Covid vaccine
« Reply #81 on: December 28, 2020, 04:08:07 AM »
My girlfriend is getting it soon since she works in health care. Not sure when I'll be able to, technically I'm a essential worker (dock work, moving supplies).
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Re: Covid vaccine
« Reply #82 on: December 28, 2020, 08:08:04 AM »
I propably can't get it before fall anyways, so possible side effects should propably be sorted by then. I'm not anti vac in any way, but obviously these vaccines have been developed with great haste possibly by cutting some corners, so I understand if some people are sceptical about taking it.

No they haven't
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Re: Covid vaccine
« Reply #83 on: December 28, 2020, 09:38:48 AM »
Expand Quote
The people who say they won‘t get the shot will be the first in line if they can‘t go to springBreak, the bar, the movies, the club without it.

So although i‘m all for mandatory vac im sure the problem will at least solve itself if people without vac have to  follow restricions.

We just forgot how terrible desease are.

You should have told people in the 1960ies not to get smallpox shot because you‘re afraid of the longterm issues....

Its ok to be scared of something you dont understand, yet least people understand how a plane works but still use it.


Also people say they are scared of longterm issues, yet the hold a smartphone to their brain for a few hours a day no questions asked (and NO i don‘t think smarphones are a health risk).

I don‘t know whats inside...! - eats at a dodgy fast food place the next day.

Pharma industry makes much more money from meds against chronical deseases and pain killers people take on a daily basis for decades if years. There is no cash in vaccination, financally pharma companies couldn‘t care less about making one.

Just get the shot so we can end this shit.

I‘m getting mine in late january, this is gonna be the best late christmas present.
[close]
I could not get past the “I’m all for mandatory vaccinations” part. Who in the sweet fuck has the right to tell another human being what to with their body? That attitude is almost as scary as this virus. I started this thread in hopes of getting an “education” from somewhat like-minded people, I definitely could never see things like you do.. and I am thankful for that.

The right to do what you want with your body ends when it can endanger others
When I was 17 I shit my wetsuit inside a Starbucks in San Clemente in front of wee man.

sexualhelon

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Re: Covid vaccine
« Reply #84 on: December 28, 2020, 11:59:03 AM »
Expand Quote
Expand Quote
The people who say they won‘t get the shot will be the first in line if they can‘t go to springBreak, the bar, the movies, the club without it.

So although i‘m all for mandatory vac im sure the problem will at least solve itself if people without vac have to  follow restricions.

We just forgot how terrible desease are.

You should have told people in the 1960ies not to get smallpox shot because you‘re afraid of the longterm issues....

Its ok to be scared of something you dont understand, yet least people understand how a plane works but still use it.


Also people say they are scared of longterm issues, yet the hold a smartphone to their brain for a few hours a day no questions asked (and NO i don‘t think smarphones are a health risk).

I don‘t know whats inside...! - eats at a dodgy fast food place the next day.

Pharma industry makes much more money from meds against chronical deseases and pain killers people take on a daily basis for decades if years. There is no cash in vaccination, financally pharma companies couldn‘t care less about making one.

Just get the shot so we can end this shit.

I‘m getting mine in late january, this is gonna be the best late christmas present.
[close]
I could not get past the “I’m all for mandatory vaccinations” part. Who in the sweet fuck has the right to tell another human being what to with their body? That attitude is almost as scary as this virus. I started this thread in hopes of getting an “education” from somewhat like-minded people, I definitely could never see things like you do.. and I am thankful for that.
[close]

The right to do what you want with your body ends when it can endanger others

Ultimately you can say that but it's not you or I deciding what exactly constitutes this. So I think it's more a question of people trusting their government.

You could say that China's one-child policy did just that - took away people's right to do what they wanted with their body because they viewed it as endangering others (their population). Plenty of other countries have family planning policies for human population planning as well. But China took it to what most would call an extreme, allowing provincial governments to require the use of contraception, abortion, and sterilization to ensure compliance, and imposed enormous fines for violations. China also had people lining up to get a vaccine before it was fully vetted.

Some countries have began monitoring the spread of coronavirus by tracking people's mobile phone location data, using facial recognition and thermal scanners - India and Russia for example. This could potentially be a powerful method to trace the spread of the virus, as well as the movements of people who have the disease. In the future, the method can also be used to track terrorists on the move, or even normal people if the authorities want to. For whatever laws would get passed to help curtail the spread, they'll likely be here to stay. 

sexualhelon

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Re: Covid vaccine
« Reply #85 on: December 28, 2020, 11:59:55 AM »
Expand Quote
Expand Quote
Expand Quote
The people who say they won‘t get the shot will be the first in line if they can‘t go to springBreak, the bar, the movies, the club without it.

So although i‘m all for mandatory vac im sure the problem will at least solve itself if people without vac have to  follow restricions.

We just forgot how terrible desease are.

You should have told people in the 1960ies not to get smallpox shot because you‘re afraid of the longterm issues....

Its ok to be scared of something you dont understand, yet least people understand how a plane works but still use it.


Also people say they are scared of longterm issues, yet the hold a smartphone to their brain for a few hours a day no questions asked (and NO i don‘t think smarphones are a health risk).

I don‘t know whats inside...! - eats at a dodgy fast food place the next day.

Pharma industry makes much more money from meds against chronical deseases and pain killers people take on a daily basis for decades if years. There is no cash in vaccination, financally pharma companies couldn‘t care less about making one.

Just get the shot so we can end this shit.

I‘m getting mine in late january, this is gonna be the best late christmas present.
[close]
I could not get past the “I’m all for mandatory vaccinations” part. Who in the sweet fuck has the right to tell another human being what to with their body? That attitude is almost as scary as this virus. I started this thread in hopes of getting an “education” from somewhat like-minded people, I definitely could never see things like you do.. and I am thankful for that.
[close]

The right to do what you want with your body ends when it can endanger others
[close]

Ultimately you can say that but it's not you or I deciding what exactly constitutes this (unless we're getting to vote on it, in which case read the fine print). So I think it's more a question of people trusting their government.

You could say that China's one-child policy did just that - took away people's right to do what they wanted with their body because they viewed it as endangering others (their population). Plenty of other countries have family planning policies for human population planning as well. But China took it to what most would call an extreme, allowing provincial governments to require the use of contraception, abortion, and sterilization to ensure compliance, and imposed enormous fines for violations. China also had people lining up to get a vaccine before it was fully vetted.

Some countries have began monitoring the spread of coronavirus by tracking people's mobile phone location data, using facial recognition and thermal scanners - India and Russia for example. This could potentially be a powerful method to trace the spread of the virus, as well as the movements of people who have the disease. In the future, the method can also be used to track terrorists on the move, or even normal people if the authorities want to. For whatever laws would get passed to help curtail the spread, they'll likely be here to stay.

Billy Bitchcakes

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Re: Covid vaccine
« Reply #86 on: December 28, 2020, 12:43:32 PM »
That's an entirely different argument though. You said (or implied) that mandatory vaccination is wrong purely because it restricts people's freedom to do what they want with their bodies. You could argue that those things you listed are wrong (and I would agree in those instances), but not on the same merit
When I was 17 I shit my wetsuit inside a Starbucks in San Clemente in front of wee man.

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Re: Covid vaccine
« Reply #87 on: December 28, 2020, 12:50:35 PM »
Expand Quote
Expand Quote
The people who say they won‘t get the shot will be the first in line if they can‘t go to springBreak, the bar, the movies, the club without it.

So although i‘m all for mandatory vac im sure the problem will at least solve itself if people without vac have to  follow restricions.

We just forgot how terrible desease are.

You should have told people in the 1960ies not to get smallpox shot because you‘re afraid of the longterm issues....

Its ok to be scared of something you dont understand, yet least people understand how a plane works but still use it.


Also people say they are scared of longterm issues, yet the hold a smartphone to their brain for a few hours a day no questions asked (and NO i don‘t think smarphones are a health risk).

I don‘t know whats inside...! - eats at a dodgy fast food place the next day.

Pharma industry makes much more money from meds against chronical deseases and pain killers people take on a daily basis for decades if years. There is no cash in vaccination, financally pharma companies couldn‘t care less about making one.

Just get the shot so we can end this shit.

I‘m getting mine in late january, this is gonna be the best late christmas present.
[close]
I could not get past the “I’m all for mandatory vaccinations” part. Who in the sweet fuck has the right to tell another human being what to with their body? That attitude is almost as scary as this virus. I started this thread in hopes of getting an “education” from somewhat like-minded people, I definitely could never see things like you do.. and I am thankful for that.
[close]

The right to do what you want with your body ends when it can endanger others

let's say this pole of binary extremes is true--i'm curious what you think the practical use of this "truth" would be for actually dealing with the virus and the vaccine and the general population? in other words, sweet, what's the next step?

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Re: Covid vaccine
« Reply #88 on: December 28, 2020, 12:57:17 PM »
You'd vaccinate everybody and end the spread of the virus? The same way that vaccines have proven to do in the past? Not sure I understand what you're asking. I'm not saying governments should have carte blanche to enforce whatever they want upon us, just that "my body my choice" isn't a strong enough case against it on its own
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Re: Covid vaccine
« Reply #89 on: December 28, 2020, 12:57:50 PM »
Expand Quote
Expand Quote
Expand Quote
The people who say they won‘t get the shot will be the first in line if they can‘t go to springBreak, the bar, the movies, the club without it.

So although i‘m all for mandatory vac im sure the problem will at least solve itself if people without vac have to  follow restricions.

We just forgot how terrible desease are.

You should have told people in the 1960ies not to get smallpox shot because you‘re afraid of the longterm issues....

Its ok to be scared of something you dont understand, yet least people understand how a plane works but still use it.


Also people say they are scared of longterm issues, yet the hold a smartphone to their brain for a few hours a day no questions asked (and NO i don‘t think smarphones are a health risk).

I don‘t know whats inside...! - eats at a dodgy fast food place the next day.

Pharma industry makes much more money from meds against chronical deseases and pain killers people take on a daily basis for decades if years. There is no cash in vaccination, financally pharma companies couldn‘t care less about making one.

Just get the shot so we can end this shit.

I‘m getting mine in late january, this is gonna be the best late christmas present.
[close]
I could not get past the “I’m all for mandatory vaccinations” part. Who in the sweet fuck has the right to tell another human being what to with their body? That attitude is almost as scary as this virus. I started this thread in hopes of getting an “education” from somewhat like-minded people, I definitely could never see things like you do.. and I am thankful for that.
[close]

The right to do what you want with your body ends when it can endanger others
[close]

Ultimately you can say that but it's not you or I deciding what exactly constitutes this. So I think it's more a question of people trusting their government.

You could say that China's one-child policy did just that - took away people's right to do what they wanted with their body because they viewed it as endangering others (their population). Plenty of other countries have family planning policies for human population planning as well. But China took it to what most would call an extreme, allowing provincial governments to require the use of contraception, abortion, and sterilization to ensure compliance, and imposed enormous fines for violations. China also had people lining up to get a vaccine before it was fully vetted.

Some countries have began monitoring the spread of coronavirus by tracking people's mobile phone location data, using facial recognition and thermal scanners - India and Russia for example. This could potentially be a powerful method to trace the spread of the virus, as well as the movements of people who have the disease. In the future, the method can also be used to track terrorists on the move, or even normal people if the authorities want to. For whatever laws would get passed to help curtail the spread, they'll likely be here to stay.

right...in fact, it's actually a matter of people trusting a kind of creepy, de facto amalgam between the government and corporations--pharmaceutical corporations at that