2016 Presidential election

[billyerlife]

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Bernie.

Reaganomics is what this country is going through, it has not worked, nor was it meant to ever work, and now we are stuck. Mr. Sanders is someone who will at least attempt to square up with this entity.

[close]

You should at least try to read some other responses in this thread and begin unprogramming your brain from thinking voting matters. Your boy Bernie is merely giving you a speech, that's it.

Ironically it's you that is being fed a line. Bernie correctly points out, over and over and over, that we have a regressive federal tax policy that benefits the wealthy at the expense of the poor.

-We cap social security taxable income at $118,500.

-We extend tax breaks to companies who provide their workers minimum wage and no benefits, to companies who ship away jobs.

-We don't tax the sale of stocks or bonds, which would be a humungous source of income.

-Tax havens, such as documented in the Panama Papers, are basically legal.

-Tax dollars are used to perpetuate warfare under an unending campaign of regime change around the world, because (and it really should be stated clearly and explicitly more often) doing so benefits the producers of weapons, transportation, and fuel.

These are just the things I know and I am not a lifelong soldier in this fight, but Bernie Sanders is. If we acknowledge that the system is rigged in favor of the rich, and we stop electing people who are established mechanisms in that system, like Hillary Clinton is, then we can begin to build a more just system that represents all of the people of the United States. This would look like universal healthcare, publicly funded universities, paid family leave, expanded social security benefits, rebuilt infrastructure, a transition to green energy, and the resulting gain of millions of jobs nationwide. That's Bernie's whole platform, make the rich pay their taxes, use the money on the people.

It might not happen quickly, but if we don't vote for people who are willing to acknowledge injustice and fight it won't happen at all.

[NickDagger]

you new york motherfuckers better be votin' Bernie on tuesday

+1

[Main]

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Bernie.

Reaganomics is what this country is going through, it has not worked, nor was it meant to ever work, and now we are stuck. Mr. Sanders is someone who will at least attempt to square up with this entity.

[close]

You should at least try to read some other responses in this thread and begin unprogramming your brain from thinking voting matters. Your boy Bernie is merely giving you a speech, that's it.

[close]

Ironically it's you that is being fed a line. Bernie correctly points out, over and over and over, that we have a regressive federal tax policy that benefits the wealthy at the expense of the poor.

-We cap social security taxable income at $118,500.

-We extend tax breaks to companies who provide their workers minimum wage and no benefits, to companies who ship away jobs.

-We don't tax the sale of stocks or bonds, which would be a humungous source of income.

-Tax havens, such as documented in the Panama Papers, are basically legal.

-Tax dollars are used to perpetuate warfare under an unending campaign of regime change around the world, because (and it really should be stated clearly and explicitly more often) doing so benefits the producers of weapons, transportation, and fuel.

These are just the things I know and I am not a lifelong soldier in this fight, but Bernie Sanders is. If we acknowledge that the system is rigged in favor of the rich, and we stop electing people who are established mechanisms in that system, like Hillary Clinton is, then we can begin to build a more just system that represents all of the people of the United States. This would look like universal healthcare, publicly funded universities, paid family leave, expanded social security benefits, rebuilt infrastructure, a transition to green energy, and the resulting gain of millions of jobs nationwide. That's Bernie's whole platform, make the rich pay their taxes, use the money on the people.

It might not happen quickly, but if we don't vote for people who are willing to acknowledge injustice and fight it won't happen at all.

http://crimethinc.com/texts/r/democracy/

[NickDagger]

Please stop posting that garbage link.

[Level 60 Dwarf Paladin]

LOL Crimethinc....

[Main]

Please explain your reasoning that it's "garbage".

The answer to flawed democracy is not more flawed democracy. You really think if there was any chance Bernie could actually become president the real owners and psychopaths of this country would allow it to happen? Look at what happened to Ron Paul, he was sabotaged. Look at how Bush and his team of scumbags rigged the electronic voting machines to steal his presidency.

The corruption isn't just with presidents either. The fact that lobbying exists and what purpose it serves is clear as day. Read all the declassified operations the terrorist organization CIA has implemented. Same goes with the FBI. There's tragedy and corruption every day happening all over the place, more government and a new president will never be the answer. They don't give a fuck about you.

[weedpop]

You still haven't proven that your main thesis that affecting change in government through voting is *impossible*. All you've done is point out that the system as currently established is corrupt (no duh), not that it's irreversibly corrupt. So excuse us if we don't immediately recognize the superiority of your juvenile, historically unsuported belief system.

[Grampa]

Crimethinc is like if Infowars had a septum piercing.

[Main]

You still haven't proven that your main thesis that affecting change in government through voting is *impossible*. All you've done is point out that the system as currently established is corrupt (no duh), not that it's irreversibly corrupt. So excuse us if we don't immediately recognize the superiority of your juvenile, historically unsuported belief system.

It's a shame that you consider people who challenge the status quo and the system which is currently in place as "juvenile". So the ones who conform and limit their thinking to working within the system must be smart, in your eyes?

This makes some pretty good points.
http://listverse.com/2013/06/16/10-reasons-why-democracy-doesnt-work/

[billyerlife]

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You still haven't proven that your main thesis that affecting change in government through voting is *impossible*. All you've done is point out that the system as currently established is corrupt (no duh), not that it's irreversibly corrupt. So excuse us if we don't immediately recognize the superiority of your juvenile, historically unsuported belief system.

[close]

It's a shame that you consider people who challenge the status quo and the system which is currently in place as "juvenile". So the ones who conform and limit their thinking to working within the system must be smart, in your eyes?

This makes some pretty good points.
http://listverse.com/2013/06/16/10-reasons-why-democracy-doesnt-work/

People want it to be impossible to change things within the system because it provides an excuse not to do anything. Barack Obama demonstrates what kind of power is possible through electing a particular president regardless of having an obstructionist legislative branch and a fairly conservative judicial branch: i.e. an incredible increase in healthcare, the end of pre-existing conditions, a significant pairing down of USA's various wars, a major increase in employment, a huge expansion in civil rights (due in large part to the Supreme Court, but guess who picks those judges? Presidents, who are elected by people who vote), a renewed acknowledgement of science in our energy policies, and on and on. These are significant changes, and they have been brought about by voting for a particular president. If Romney was president you think any of that shit would have happened? You'd have to be stupid or just a contrarian to claim that.

Furthermore, at local levels, governors and state legislators are making things like prison reform, decriminalization, minimum wage increases, and way more come to be. It wouldn't happen without electing particular people, and those people are elected by people who vote. The argument that voting doesn't matter isn't even superficially interesting, with a minimum of information it is just obviously true.

Sometimes you need to do more though. This is my second weekend day in a month I've spent caucasing instead of skating. I've written letters, made phone calls, for and donated money to Bernie Sanders, because I think he is our best chance for the progression of well being in the middle class, and the beginning of the end of poverty. Voting matters, but participating in our democracy (demos-the people, cratos-the strenght of) is what makes it a democracy. Voting matters, but if you don't participate than you don't matter.

[TheFifthColumn]

I take back what I said on the previous page. I do know somebody who has issues with capitalism. This guy:

http://www.institutionalinvestor.com/article/3533486/asset-management-hedge-funds-and-alternatives/the-other-paul-ryan-banker-welcomes-a-bernie-sanders-revolution.html#/.VxSY8JMrLWE

'"I'm doing a Weberian critique of modern capitalism by voting for Bernie Sanders," Ryan, 51, says in the boardroom of TriPoint Global Equities, a New York based investment bank where he serves as a managing director. Referring to the "iron cage of rationality," a term coined by German sociologist Max Weber, he argues that the current system has outlived its usefulness and the only kind and ethical thing to do is to put it out of its misery.'

[Tufty]

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 Sleazy you are just a detached middle class and you think that the world is buisiness and what US-West preaches. I know your type I encounter them all the time at work. No, the world existed before buisiness and it will be existing forever even without buisiness AGAIN.

[close]

Just so I can wrap my head around this Tufty could you just give me a brief outline of the dynamics of such a society would work? I'd love to hear your idea of a perfect society where everyones happy all the time, has plenty of everything they need, equal in every way, and completely void of any type of commerce or currency. If that's possible sign me up!

[close]

I believe in what Marx wrote more or less. It is not that someone will dictate to people to think in a way but the evolution of society will dictate this to people, or more percisely the evolution of means of production. It is no secret that technology and capitalism dont mix well. I have read surveys that say that for every 1000 jobs vanished by automation of production, there are only 100 new ones created. Moreover these new jobs may require more education, meaning that the gap between educated and uneducated is getting massive, especially when most of those uneducated dont have the money to invest into such an education. This creates a big problem in the economic climate, as with unemployment rising there will be no consumers to sustain the model of ongoing boom that capitalism wants in order to function. So people will either push for some new ethics and new social models or we are bound to live great inequalities, turbulences and maybe wars. Of course capitalism has the tendency of patching things in many ways ( excessive Imperialism, credit to send the problem years ahead, wars that reset economy by destruction of major world players and elimination of the population etc.) but those cant work forever.

 So I dont have some clear answer for you as you can see. I can tell you that buisiness didnt always exist and for the biggest part of the human history didnt play a major role in the economy or society but they were rather a small part of it. It was during the 17th-18th century that buisiness ethics and capitalism prevailed, and I wont lie those ethics boosted technology and economy in a way that made capitalistic nations superpowers. Until then Europe and Asia werent exactly so different in terms of global power. However the asset capitalism gave in early capitalist nations (technology) is the same thing that threatens capitalism.  I know that the Parisian Commune and USSR are glimpses of those new ethics and they are the equivalent of all those times capitalism tried to prevail against feudarchy since the 14th century and failed miserably for 300 years.

[close]

OK. Not going to pretend I grasp all of that but it sounds reasonable. So now tell me what form of government is in place where these $1 per day asian miners live? Being a miner has never been a glamorous profession and the miners here in the US are def not getting rich. But I can assure they have a fair wage, live a decent life and have super strict OSHA safety laws being enforced. ie.they make enough to save up and change their situation if they are so motivated(go back to school whatnot). In fact I can't think of any jobs here that pay slave wages. Granted there are jobs that deserve/need more. Hopefully minimum wage will go up. But I think if you answer my original question you will see who the true oppressors are. Seems pretty obvious to me.

Also, try standing in one spot in the same position with your arms up for anywhere from 4 to 10 hours at a time and see how your body feels. Surgeons(of all types)earn their $$$ my friend trust me.

Well those asian miners work under the oppresive capitalist states of former socialist asia. The model of undemocratic capitalism is very popular among the markets, the extensive deregulation of European labour during the European crisis proves that. First it was the PIGS and then the same deregulation of labour starts to happen in France (you can look up the Loitravaille). Well America and every imperialist country can provide a better pay and living standard for the shame job position because it can provide profits for the buisinessmen via stealing resources from other countries. The only reason because a miner can get a liveable wage in USA its because the multinationals that pay that miner have the right to have also mines in Asia or Africa with 1$ per day and no cost for mining the resources of a foreign country, so production costs are not that high and can sustain the myth in the US that we are a great nation that cares about working people.

 There may be no slave wages in America but there are wages that cant allow persons to live indepentedly (internships for example).

 Yeah but I doubt that a surgeon has the same life threats as a miner. As I said I am against the commercialization of labour and I am against the markets regualting labour upon their needs, I am not against surgeons. Education, work conditions, relocation, shifts etc should be taken account into providing a livable wage at least, and we shouldn't let markets just bartering and trading people like pieces of meat. The point is that many people dont do any job of social value and receive absurd money, I bet you know many examples, wll fuck them, give those money to the minimum wage people.

[Main]

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You still haven't proven that your main thesis that affecting change in government through voting is *impossible*. All you've done is point out that the system as currently established is corrupt (no duh), not that it's irreversibly corrupt. So excuse us if we don't immediately recognize the superiority of your juvenile, historically unsuported belief system.

[close]

It's a shame that you consider people who challenge the status quo and the system which is currently in place as "juvenile". So the ones who conform and limit their thinking to working within the system must be smart, in your eyes?

This makes some pretty good points.
http://listverse.com/2013/06/16/10-reasons-why-democracy-doesnt-work/

[close]

People want it to be impossible to change things within the system because it provides an excuse not to do anything. Barack Obama demonstrates what kind of power is possible through electing a particular president regardless of having an obstructionist legislative branch and a fairly conservative judicial branch: i.e. an incredible increase in healthcare, the end of pre-existing conditions, a significant pairing down of USA's various wars, a major increase in employment, a huge expansion in civil rights (due in large part to the Supreme Court, but guess who picks those judges? Presidents, who are elected by people who vote), a renewed acknowledgement of science in our energy policies, and on and on. These are significant changes, and they have been brought about by voting for a particular president. If Romney was president you think any of that shit would have happened? You'd have to be stupid or just a contrarian to claim that.

Furthermore, at local levels, governors and state legislators are making things like prison reform, decriminalization, minimum wage increases, and way more come to be. It wouldn't happen without electing particular people, and those people are elected by people who vote. The argument that voting doesn't matter isn't even superficially interesting, with a minimum of information it is just obviously true.

Sometimes you need to do more though. This is my second weekend day in a month I've spent caucasing instead of skating. I've written letters, made phone calls, for and donated money to Bernie Sanders, because I think he is our best chance for the progression of well being in the middle class, and the beginning of the end of poverty. Voting matters, but participating in our democracy (demos-the people, cratos-the strenght of) is what makes it a democracy. Voting matters, but if you don't participate than you don't matter.

Your phone calls and letters mean absolutely nothing, just your money. That's all it takes to become president now...money. Who can raise the most and who is more popular. The fact that people take this year's charade seriously is mind boggling. Nothing but petty slandering of an opponent and a shit show. Granted, this happens every election, but this one in particular is fucking embarrassing.

Assuming that everything in our "democracy" happens at the will of the people is regular. Any basic knowledge of history and political science proves this wrong. If voting changed anything, it would be illegal...

[billyerlife]

I'm sorry, but just repeating yourself over and over is pointless, especially when you are wrong. Voting and civic action has lead, directly and indirectly, to tremendous changes in our society over the last 300 years. You've heard of the civil rights movement right? You think MLK was just paying people off?

From the Emancipation Proclamation, to desegregation, to voter rights, to gay marriage, to reversing racist and inconsistent drug policies, to everything we take for granted as a relatively free society, voting and civic action have been the catalyst. Being an apathetic whiner is one choice, but don't pretend that it's the only choice. Democracy is as strong as the people who participate in it, by definition.

You and I agree that the system is corrupt. We have a slight difference in opinion as regards whether it can be changed. I believe that it can, because it has over and over. We passed laws requiring minimum wages, safe working conditions, weekends. We are passing laws, in cities and states, guaranteeing schedules, raising the minimum wage to $15 per hour. That shit is real! It benefits nobody but the working class, it comes at a direct cost to the people you claim hold an irrevocable chokehold on politics, and it only happened because of the hard work of citizens and a turnout of voters. That is what democracy is, and it consistently works. The only obstacle are the people who could participate, but don't participate, that's it.

[Main]

I'm sorry, but just repeating yourself over and over is pointless, especially when you are wrong. Voting has lead, directly and indirectly, to tremendous changes in our society over the last 300 years, from the bill of rights, to the criminalization of slavery, to desegregation, to voter rights, to gay marriage, to everything we take for granted as a relatively free society. Be an apathetic whiner, that's your choice, but don't pretend that it's the only choice. Democracy is as strong as the people who participate in it, by definition, it's people like you who weaken it.

You must have forgotten in your outstanding knowledge of history that candidates lost their presidency to the electoral vote, not the popular vote. Plenty of states don't have laws requiring the electoral representatives to honor the popular vote. The electoral college gives unfair advantages to certain states and awards electoral votes in an inconsistent manner. As long as the electoral college exists the popular vote is meaningless. Also, since the system is rigged to benefit the politicians and rich elite anyways, your vote especially doesn't mean shit.

I'm the whiner? You bitch and moan about things you don't like about the world and then make the conscious decision to have blind faith that someone else will take care of it for you. Without government and a centralized form of control, people take matters into their own hands. According to your logic that's juvenile, when in fact it's the complete opposite. It's the most responsible thing to do.

[billyerlife]

Yes, you are the whiner. Very specifically, you are the one whining about how there is no way to change anything and my specific, non-whining counter, is that there are many ways. Additionally, you are the one who has blind faith nothing can get done, while I have seen with my own eyes that anything can happen if you work hard enough.

 Some laws are shitty and some politicians are terrible and bad things have happened, correct. So go out and do something about it. Campaign for someone or something you believe in, run yourself for a local office and work your way up, write legislature and collect signatures. There are nearly limitless ways to make an actual concrete difference. It's not a coincidence you ignore the dozen causes I listed that have seen progression through democracy. It's because you are very wrong.

While you "bitch and moan" about how there's no way to do anything, we're actually on the street doing it. While you cry about how the system is rigged, we're unrigging the system. We celebrate while you dry your tears.

You can live in your parents basement forever, crying into your keyboard about how nothing is fair, in the meantime we will be making the world a better place. I remember kids like you from when we had to fight to get our local skatepark built, you'd sit there going, "they'll never do it, it's just going to suck anyway." The park is getting built, it's going to be dope, and you won't get to claim one ounce of credit for it.

[Level 60 Dwarf Paladin]

I like this guy... Fuck you main.

[Main]

Yes, you are the whiner. Very specifically, you are the one whining about how there is no way to change anything and my specific, non-whining counter, is that there are many ways. Additionally, you are the one who has blind faith nothing can get done, while I have seen with my own eyes that anything can happen if you work hard enough.

 Some laws are shitty and some politicians are terrible and bad things have happened, correct. So go out and do something about it. Campaign for someone or something you believe in, run yourself for a local office and work your way up, write legislature and collect signatures. There are nearly limitless ways to make an actual concrete difference. It's not a coincidence you ignore the dozen causes I listed that have seen progression through democracy. It's because you are very wrong.

While you "bitch and moan" about how there's no way to do anything, we're actually on the street doing it. While you cry about how the system is rigged, we're unrigging the system. We celebrate while you dry your tears.

You can live in your parents basement forever, crying into your keyboard about how nothing is fair, in the meantime we will be making the world a better place. I remember kids like you from when we had to fight to get our local skatepark built, you'd sit there going, "they'll never do it, it's just going to suck anyway." The park is getting built, it's going to be dope, and you won't get to claim one ounce of credit for it.

I'm not saying NOTHING can be done, I'm saying the system is corrupt beyond repair, therefore it needs to be dismantled. Your statement that I have "blind faith" in nothing makes no sense whatsoever. I like how you completely ignored facts about the electoral college and didn't rebuttal with anything because it's fucking true. You just resorted to ad hominem. Who'd you learn that technique from? I wonder... And where are the dozen causes you listed that democracy is successful?

YOU are in fact limiting the potential for any real change in the world by repeatedly thinking a "representative" will fight for you. Or that you need to climb the latter of hierarchy instead of direct action. If I wanted to build a skate structure, I'd do it myself, and I know plenty of people that would willingly join me. Going and asking someone for permission would be out of the question. That's the spirit of skateboarding.

It's evident you have unrealistic optimism towards our "democracy". Let it go, everything crumbles at some point and we pick up from there to make something better. The problem is there is an incomprehensible amount of things that keep people from truly uniting and fighting the powers that be. The whole two party system and mainstream media loves to perpetuate this.

"Kids like you" "Crying in your mom's basement" -ad hominem. Who's the juvenile one here?

[weedpop]

After a quick google search, there's only been 4 occasions when a candidate won the popular vote but lost the election:

1824-Andrew Jackson won over John Quincy Adams
1876-Samuel Tilden won over Rutherford B. Hayes
1888-Grover Cleveland won over Benjamin Harrison
2000 Al Gore won the popular vote but lost the election to George Bush, although Gore likely would have won the electoral college too if the Supreme Court hadn't intervened.

And here's a list of "faithless electors". Not too many instances of it actually happening. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faithless_elector#2000_to_present

As kooky as it is, the electoral college only means that certain people's votes may have more influence on the outcome than others - it's not a particularly strong argument for your original claim that everyone's vote is "meaningless". Even then, congressmen and senators are elected based on the popular vote, and they're the ones that actually vote on legislation. The fact that you keep coming back to this just shows that you don't even know how to argue your own point effectively.

You aren't juvenile because you challenge the status quo. You're juvenile because you do so in the most facile, sensationalistic way possible and then call anyone who points out the lack of depth in your arguments a mindless sheep.

[chockfullofthat]

I like this guy... Fuck you main.

[Noble Experiment]

 Main, you remind me a lot of this fifteen year old kid who used to come down to my local park a lot who thought he was an expert on politics because he owned a couple Crass albums. You guys make real similar arguments. You're not him, are you?

[Main]

Not a strong argument? In a "democracy", the people vote for who they want and believe that person best represents the goals they would like to accomplish. The electoral college says, "nope". Just because it hasn't happened with every election doesn't mean it's not a valid point. But it CAN happen with any election and therefore, that's not a democracy. Not to mention gerrymandering, photo ID and other voter suppression tactics.

We're not a Republic either. A Republic is a form of government in which power resides with the people, and the government is ruled by elected leaders who govern according to laws designed to help citizens. If you believe this definition, it's not a Republic because the elected leaders no longer rule by law or by what their constituents want. Instead, the officials rule by the wishes of corporations and billionaires.

Therefore, the USA is an Oligarchy. Read about the Supreme Court ruling in favor of Citizens United. Money replaced free speech and corporations replaced people. Average people have less rights and less control over the government. While corporations and wealthy donors, along with Wall Street, are free to influence elections, write legislation and destroy the country for their own interests. Basically, America is heading toward Plutocracy and Theocracy, if it's not here already.

But yeah, I learned all this from a fuckin' Crass album. You must not be very good at observing things if you think everything I just said isn't actually happening. But you know...Bernie is going to change everything. Lol...

[NickDagger]

Main - post your age and location.


Then please never post again.


All you NEW YAWKERS better be voting for Bernie today.

[saucy ragu]

Woke up an hour early before work to beat any potential line, voted for Bernie and all his supporting delegates. Saw him at the Long Island City rally last night too. He said largely the same things we've all heard, but I never got tired of clapping.

Side Note/Question: In my semi-frequent comment roaming on Hillary/Bernie's social media pages (guilty pleasure), someone mentioned the scenario of a third party being government funded if they get 5% of the general election vote; most likely I'm restating this incorrectly, but does anyone know anything about this? I'm going to do some independent research into that area, but I'd appreciate any input for the worst-case scenario of Hillary vs Trump. If Bernie doesn't get the nomination, I'd rather choose to force (incrementally) a third party into the mix as opposed to voting for the lesser of two evils.

[dkn]

voter suppression in NY now too?  well i suppose what did we expect

yet still: i don't align with my anarcho friends in thinking that voting is pointless

cynicism is just not the our chosen approach.  in fact, we often feel that it's toxic

so don't make us opponents—we're all in this together really.  us against corruption

something similar between us all is that we know the message is spreading

[Main]

Main - post your age and location.


Then please never post again.


All you NEW YAWKERS better be voting for Bernie today.

NickDagger, throw your vote in the trash where it belongs.

[Rusty Shackleford]

voted for bernie earlier!

[Silky Johnson]

Gnar for you ^
I don't get how people are buying into Hilary's bullshit and voting for her, I can't stand to hear her speak for even a few seconds without muting the tv or flipping the channel every thing she says sounds like she's freestyling lies off the top of her dome.

[billyerlife]

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Yes, you are the whiner. Very specifically, you are the one whining about how there is no way to change anything and my specific, non-whining counter, is that there are many ways. Additionally, you are the one who has blind faith nothing can get done, while I have seen with my own eyes that anything can happen if you work hard enough.

 Some laws are shitty and some politicians are terrible and bad things have happened, correct. So go out and do something about it. Campaign for someone or something you believe in, run yourself for a local office and work your way up, write legislature and collect signatures. There are nearly limitless ways to make an actual concrete difference. It's not a coincidence you ignore the dozen causes I listed that have seen progression through democracy. It's because you are very wrong.

While you "bitch and moan" about how there's no way to do anything, we're actually on the street doing it. While you cry about how the system is rigged, we're unrigging the system. We celebrate while you dry your tears.

You can live in your parents basement forever, crying into your keyboard about how nothing is fair, in the meantime we will be making the world a better place. I remember kids like you from when we had to fight to get our local skatepark built, you'd sit there going, "they'll never do it, it's just going to suck anyway." The park is getting built, it's going to be dope, and you won't get to claim one ounce of credit for it.

[close]

I'm not saying NOTHING can be done, I'm saying the system is corrupt beyond repair, therefore it needs to be dismantled. Your statement that I have "blind faith" in nothing makes no sense whatsoever. I like how you completely ignored facts about the electoral college and didn't rebuttal with anything because it's fucking true. You just resorted to ad hominem. Who'd you learn that technique from? I wonder... And where are the dozen causes you listed that democracy is successful?

YOU are in fact limiting the potential for any real change in the world by repeatedly thinking a "representative" will fight for you. Or that you need to climb the latter of hierarchy instead of direct action. If I wanted to build a skate structure, I'd do it myself, and I know plenty of people that would willingly join me. Going and asking someone for permission would be out of the question. That's the spirit of skateboarding.

It's evident you have unrealistic optimism towards our "democracy". Let it go, everything crumbles at some point and we pick up from there to make something better. The problem is there is an incomprehensible amount of things that keep people from truly uniting and fighting the powers that be. The whole two party system and mainstream media loves to perpetuate this.

"Kids like you" "Crying in your mom's basement" -ad hominem. Who's the juvenile one here?

Electoral colleges only apply to presidential elections. That means that governors, senators, congresspeople at the state and federal level, mayors, and city council members are all elected directly by voters. In addition, all legislation on all ballots are determined directly by voters. This is how (here's that dozen you asked for) emancipation, civil rights, suffrage, desegregation, expanded health care coverage, increased minimum wage, safe working conditions, progressive tax policies, increased environmental regulations, mandatory family leave, progressive education policy,increased financial sector oversight, reformed criminal justice, reduced unnecessary military activity, expansion of civil rights to LGBTQ have all seen progress at the local and federal level in just the last few years.

My bad, that's 16. 4 freebies. There's shitloads more too though.

Democracy works great, so long as people participate. Did you know you can run for office yourself? Yup. The powers that be, the system that is so rigged, are so thankful that you won't though. What they want is for you to succumb to cynicism, to be sure that nothing will ever change, to demand it's the case, to just give in. That's their whole plan. You ever wonder why people with lots of money and power are desperately trying to make it harder to vote? It's because it's dangerous to their way of life. So when someone just says, "it's stupid to vote, may as well just throw it in the trash, nothing will ever change." that's music to their ears. So good job Main, you are the poster boy for the system. You are the one working the hardest to make it the case that they stay in power and that, in the beautiful circularity of self-fulfilling prophecy, nothing ever changes.

Your argument has no substance, and there is zero evidence for your claims. The evidence that voting matters and democracy works, slowly but surely, is overwhelming. It's astoundingly clear. I bet you think of yourself as a rational person, if so it's time to face the fact that you are wrong. Democracy will welcome you with open arms whenever you are ready.

[Main]

Electoral colleges only apply to presidential elections. That means that governors, senators, congresspeople at the state and federal level, mayors, and city council members are all elected directly by voters. In addition, all legislation on all ballots are determined directly by voters. This is how (here's that dozen you asked for) emancipation, civil rights, suffrage, desegregation, expanded health care coverage, increased minimum wage, safe working conditions, progressive tax policies, increased environmental regulations, mandatory family leave, progressive education policy,increased financial sector oversight, reformed criminal justice, reduced unnecessary military activity, expansion of civil rights to LGBTQ have all seen progress at the local and federal level in just the last few years.

My bad, that's 16. 4 freebies. There's shitloads more too though.

Democracy works great, so long as people participate. Did you know you can run for office yourself? Yup. The powers that be, the system that is so rigged, are so thankful that you won't though. What they want is for you to succumb to cynicism, to be sure that nothing will ever change, to demand it's the case, to just give in. That's their whole plan. You ever wonder why people with lots of money and power are desperately trying to make it harder to vote? It's because it's dangerous to their way of life. So when someone just says, "it's stupid to vote, may as well just throw it in the trash, nothing will ever change." that's music to their ears. So good job Main, you are the poster boy for the system. You are the one working the hardest to make it the case that they stay in power and that, in the beautiful circularity of self-fulfilling prophecy, nothing ever changes.

Your argument has no substance, and there is zero evidence for your claims. The evidence that voting matters and democracy works, slowly but surely, is overwhelming. It's astoundingly clear. I bet you think of yourself as a rational person, if so it's time to face the fact that you are wrong. Democracy will welcome you with open arms whenever you are ready.

Your warm and snuggly idea of democracy is cute. Nearly all of those you listed are fading as each year passes. The oligarchs actually love people like you who play the game they rigged in their own favor. It keeps you docile with an "I voted durrrr" sticker on your shirt. Plenty of local politicians throughout history and current ones go along with the corruption, they're almost never held responsible. They just get letters written to them and it goes directly into the paper shredder. Blagojevich was just a person and got sloppy.