@useless_wooden_knowledge vs Evergreen Skateparks/Bad Park Design

[boi-cuzudo]

Expand Quote

Expand Quote

Now people know how I felt when our city wasted $3million on a fucking skate plaza.

[close]

Care to show us your local plaza?

[close]

Google “Paines Skatepark”.

I don’t even hate Paines as much as some people but it was still a stupid amount of money with a lot less to show for than any other big ticket skatepark. The transition elements weren’t even supposed to be there because a bunch of Love Park guys thought “it would look bad when filming”. To the extent those guys ever skate Paines it’s usually only for the old Love Park benches which could have been dropped on a slab anywhere.

We ended up with a poorly executed mishmash that architects were high fiveing themselves over that probably cost more per square foot than any other skatepark ever. For that price we could have gotten an Arvada, Linda Vista, D-Park, etc. There are also plenty of smaller footprint plaza parks like SOMA or LES that offer more to skate.


At any rate, builders should thoughtfully try to include as many styles as feasible but it seems inevitable that feelings will get hurt either way.

https://skatephilly.org/parks/paines-park/

It does look poorly planned, indeed a waste of money

[dilbert1]

This reminds me of a great thread I read here a *long* time ago, which I can no longer find, despite multiple searches. A poster here is some kind of expert on urban planning and design, and went into detail about why Love Park was changed from a dynamic and interesting plaza that allowed people to congregate for multiple purposes into a boring, pancake flat eyesore. The thrust being that yes, the design is intentional, because cities and the people who police them now see large, unorganized gatherings as a thing that should be interrupted and arrested where possible, and a flat plaza with few openings serves much better for their current intended use, which is "official" events like charity runs and festivals, where someone leases out the park and charges admission. As an added benefit, the authorities can now see everything going on in the park, so no one can get away with something nefarious like drinking in public.

I did a shitty job explaining it, but if someone can dig up that thread, I would appreciate it and I think it would be relevant to the conversation.

Same, I'll sleuth around the internet, there's gotta be some Lefebvre-citing dissertation on the subject out there somewhere.

Also, the language used by Philly's tourism marketing agency to explain what still attracts people to LOVE, now that skateboarding and loitering have been policed out of existence, would be pretty humorous if it weren't for the violent passion for the most mediocre version of reality behind it...

LOVE Park is designed to let visitors and vendors use the space as needed, creating an environment that brings together world travelers, lunchtime snackers, sunbathers, fitness buffs and performers. Major renovations completed in 2018 put the LOVE sculpture at the center of the park, creating plenty of photo-ready opportunities. A new fountain with programmable jets and lights is also selfie-worthy.

[Nosferatu]

paine doesn't look that bad to me. what's wrong with it?

Not enough pump bumps

[coldbrew]

I love that there’s now not one but two threads on why paines sucks.

[j....soy.....]

my town got a park built last year. at the meeting the builder explained that certain obstacles cost more to build than others. Ledges and boxes cost more to make than transition because of all the form work that hast to be done. more materials and more labor to create ledges stairs and boxes. So that mean the plazas and ledge heavy parks everyone wants cost a lot more than a transition heavy pump track style. an earlier poster mentioned the expectations of city leaders to see dazzling results for their million dollars. a few ledges sprinkled about around a 4 stair vs. a mine field of lumps, the tucked shirts from the city are gonna chose the one that looks like it has more for the money.

If the 'street' guys really only want a ledge and flat bar then why do we need a skate park for that? build that shit in your friends front yard. A skate park should have shit that only exists at skateparks. lumps and launches and weird shit to grind. Shit you cant find by driving around town or to the next town over. if you can build it yourself for $200 or have one shipped to your house from Element skateboards then why would we need a professional build firm to make it on the citys dime. you can skate a 5 stair at a local school. you cant carve into a long 5050 or launch a flyout at the Jr. high school. at my local theres tons of kids skating a 4 stair and flat ground and dodging the bowls. i want them to fuck off. Ledges at parks are sick but they should be cool ones off steps or across pyramids and more than just a fun box on the ground.

Anyway how lame is it call yourself a street skater but only skate ledges at a skatepark. I blame the Xgames for this. they called the contest area a 'street course' and now we have these park kids saying they skate street. but then again now the kids say i skate vert while im on the mini ramp and it makes me feel badass so...yes i wear a mesh hat... a bright fucking orange one.

Concrete transition is more money......it's more labour intensive and takes more concrete than a ledge...  They are playing you...

In Vancouver, Hastings and the plaza was built around the same time, coping bowl vs. plaza with granite, plaza was half the price.....

Asking street skaters to go skate street is the dumbest argument ever....they are at the table because they are all about park style.....

[Willie]

Expand Quote

paine doesn't look that bad to me. what's wrong with it?

[close]

Not enough pump bumps

The decorative brick sections have 1” expansion joints on either side of them. It is incredibly easy to get pitched riding over them. You have to ride over them to get anywhere.

Almost every transition element except the “brick” stamped quarter was unplanned and built on the fly by the Grindline guys. I appreciate them being there but there isn’t much rhyme or reason for where they are placed.

Most of the transitions have this flush metal “noping” that feels awful.

The steep banks are basically useless and there are drains right in front of them.

The steps are all stupidly long but low. If you can do anything better than ollie the 4 you are really good. If you can do anything over the 6 you should probably be on flow somewhere.

The handrails are also super high and unskateable for most.

They fucked up the Drexel bar by inches in height and length making it useless.

The manny pads are either 2” or 12”+.

A shit ton of money was spent on granite that is unskatable. The whole “fountain” tribute section is useless as anything but seating.

One of the builders said they poured the footers for the ledges like 12’ deep. Said you could build a skyscraper on them and had never seen concrete wasted like that on a skatepark.

Tremendous amount of dead space.

THE ENTIRE THING IS ON A 5 DEGREE GRADE SO YOU’RE ALWAYS GOING DOWNHILL OR UPHILL. Naturally, all the transitions are uphill because fuck you.


What else did I miss?

[CossRooper]

The decorative brick sections have 1” expansion joints on either side of them. It is incredibly easy to get pitched riding over them. You have to ride over them to get anywhere.

I definitely remember when this park opened thinking "why the fuck did they make the flatground intentionally rougher in those areas" and the expansion joints look treacherous. They should really just fill those in with pure crete.

[Sloppy Krooks]

Expand Quote

As a man in my late thirties, I don't want to hang out anywhere where bearded men my age are wearing trucker caps and smashing the coping with their boards like apes when someone does a grind. These parks look like they'd attract that demographic.

But I live in Australia where there's about 6 parks of varied shapes and sizes within a twenty minute drive from my house, and I pretty much just skate the carpark at the local TAFE by myself anyway. So I don't have to deal with any of that.

[close]

Absolutely skateboarding's worst demographic, by far...

I’m triggered

[poopingbutts]

It might be an unpopular opinion but I hate these parks. i think that they look more like playgrounds than somewhere to push ones skating.

[coldbrew]

Expand Quote

Expand Quote

paine doesn't look that bad to me. what's wrong with it?

[close]

Not enough pump bumps

[close]

The steps are all stupidly long but low. If you can do anything better than ollie the 4 you are really good. If you do anything over the 6 you should probably be on flow somewhere.

Okay let’s relax. The 6 is big but it’s not THAT big or maybe I should’ve been on flow years ago.

[Willie]

^That's sick! Maybe you should have been!

It's just stupid that a park meant to replace Love and City Hall doesn't have stairs equivalent to the fun and easy sets they had.

[coldbrew]

Completely agree though. As much as I’ve ripped that park it fucking stinks haha

[elbarto]

For everyone saying that Evergreen is building these parks in smaller towns with nothing to skate, how is it that I live in Portland and have like 5 of these within a 10 minute drive? I’d love an actual new skatepark but these fucking things just keep popping up. Take the money from 5 small ones and just make one big one!

[j....soy.....]

Flow parks are also death traps with scooter kids......transition guys always skate transition parks when they first open but they are pretty fair weathered.....

[backinaction]

Flow parks are also death traps with scooter kids.....

Typical scene:

[DanCorteseFromMTVSports]

Expand Quote

This reminds me of a great thread I read here a *long* time ago, which I can no longer find, despite multiple searches. A poster here is some kind of expert on urban planning and design, and went into detail about why Love Park was changed from a dynamic and interesting plaza that allowed people to congregate for multiple purposes into a boring, pancake flat eyesore. The thrust being that yes, the design is intentional, because cities and the people who police them now see large, unorganized gatherings as a thing that should be interrupted and arrested where possible, and a flat plaza with few openings serves much better for their current intended use, which is "official" events like charity runs and festivals, where someone leases out the park and charges admission. As an added benefit, the authorities can now see everything going on in the park, so no one can get away with something nefarious like drinking in public.

I did a shitty job explaining it, but if someone can dig up that thread, I would appreciate it and I think it would be relevant to the conversation.

[close]

Same, I'll sleuth around the internet, there's gotta be some Lefebvre-citing dissertation on the subject out there somewhere.

Also, the language used by Philly's tourism marketing agency to explain what still attracts people to LOVE, now that skateboarding and loitering have been policed out of existence, would be pretty humorous if it weren't for the violent passion for the most mediocre version of reality behind it...

Expand Quote

LOVE Park is designed to let visitors and vendors use the space as needed, creating an environment that brings together world travelers, lunchtime snackers, sunbathers, fitness buffs and performers. Major renovations completed in 2018 put the LOVE sculpture at the center of the park, creating plenty of photo-ready opportunities. A new fountain with programmable jets and lights is also selfie-worthy.

[close]

"If it can't go on an Instagram page or in a developer's brochure, why are we building this shit?!?!?!"

[sharkjumper]

For everyone saying that Evergreen is building these parks in smaller towns with nothing to skate, how is it that I live in Portland and have like 5 of these within a 10 minute drive? I’d love an actual new skatepark but these fucking things just keep popping up. Take the money from 5 small ones and just make one big one!

A couple things on this. Alberta park is the only park here designed and built by evergreen. They did build happy valley, but it was based on an existing design from someone else. They built gateway and luuwit, but those were designed by grindline.
We should have more parks! The city has a skatepark plan, but the last park built in that was Ed Benedict. The parks department is a nightmare of red tape.
All the little parks get done when they update a city park.
We need a skater in city hall.

[Skateboard Shuffle]

Wheat Ridge in CO is one of the best uses of space that I have seen. The "street" area is spread out and bordered by a super-wide 1/4 pipe on one end. The "bowl" area has enough lines for the rippers, but also has enough space for multiple beginners to learn to pump. I don't know how you could improve much on that size footprint.

Arvada and Golden are other examples of great layouts (IMO), but they require a much larger footprint/budget that most towns do not have.

[boi-cuzudo]

For everyone saying that Evergreen is building these parks in smaller towns with nothing to skate, how is it that I live in Portland and have like 5 of these within a 10 minute drive? I’d love an actual new skatepark but these fucking things just keep popping up. Take the money from 5 small ones and just make one big one!

My housemate said the same thing yesterday, we got plenty of the small spots. I hope the Lloyd center turns into a skate facility.

[backinaction]

Wheat Ridge in CO is one of the best uses of space that I have seen. The "street" area is spread out and bordered by a super-wide 1/4 pipe on one end. The "bowl" area has enough lines for the rippers, but also has enough space for multiple beginners to learn to pump. I don't know how you could improve much on that size footprint.

Arvada and Golden are other examples of great layouts (IMO), but they require a much larger footprint/budget that most towns do not have.

Wheat Ridge is great.  That bowl has some fabulous lines, and the spine is a bonus. That may be my favorite bowl I have skated.

[CossRooper]

what skater need to do is not get into the park board but get into position that bypasses the park board. Get the skateparks built in some unused area owned by a railroad or state DOT or "parking consortium" or something. This is basically what Lot 11 in Miami did which was either a lucky accident or the guy organizing that is an unsung local politics genius

the dude that did it also came to the table with literally half the money. i am stoked for miami and obviously the team that put it together are all time legends. but it should not be compared to your typical grassroots civic involvement scenario. hundreds of thousands of dollars will obviously sway your local officials.

Faced with the prospect of losing the agreements that were already in place with the city, Katz turned to his family, which had created a charitable foundation the previous year. The family foundation wrote him a promissory note for 50 percent of the park’s total budget, giving Katz the leverage he needed to sway Miami commissioners to match the pledge. The lease agreement with the parking authority runs for 25 years and includes an option to renew at a cost of $1 per year.

https://www.miaminewtimes.com/arts/lot-11-is-miami-first-public-skate-park-11315431

[Youoverthere]

Expand Quote

Wheat Ridge in CO is one of the best uses of space that I have seen. The "street" area is spread out and bordered by a super-wide 1/4 pipe on one end. The "bowl" area has enough lines for the rippers, but also has enough space for multiple beginners to learn to pump. I don't know how you could improve much on that size footprint.

Arvada and Golden are other examples of great layouts (IMO), but they require a much larger footprint/budget that most towns do not have.

[close]

Wheat Ridge is great.  That bowl has some fabulous lines, and the spine is a bonus. That may be my favorite bowl I have skated.

Wheat Ridge park is one of the worst parks in CO. I tried to sesh that place so many times because I truly love the design but EVERYTIME I go there’s like 20+ scooter kids or just running kids with parents standing in the middle even though there’s a gazebo. I been politely asked by parents to leave the park multiple times before because it’s “it’s just too crowded here and these kids are trying to learn and you’re scaring them.” But then you look up and see kids tracking in water from the little waterpark across the sidewalk and screaming kids playing tag through both the playground and park. One of best skatepark bowls in CO if you get a chance tho.

[manysnakes]

Expand Quote

what skater need to do is not get into the park board but get into position that bypasses the park board. Get the skateparks built in some unused area owned by a railroad or state DOT or "parking consortium" or something. This is basically what Lot 11 in Miami did which was either a lucky accident or the guy organizing that is an unsung local politics genius

[close]

the dude that did it also came to the table with literally half the money. i am stoked for miami and obviously the team that put it together are all time legends. but it should not be compared to your typical grassroots civic involvement scenario. hundreds of thousands of dollars will obviously sway your local officials.

Expand Quote

Faced with the prospect of losing the agreements that were already in place with the city, Katz turned to his family, which had created a charitable foundation the previous year. The family foundation wrote him a promissory note for 50 percent of the park’s total budget, giving Katz the leverage he needed to sway Miami commissioners to match the pledge. The lease agreement with the parking authority runs for 25 years and includes an option to renew at a cost of $1 per year.

[close]

https://www.miaminewtimes.com/arts/lot-11-is-miami-first-public-skate-park-11315431

“ Faced with the prospect of losing the agreements that were already in place with the city, **Katz turned to his family, which had created a charitable foundation the previous year. The family foundation wrote him a promissory note for 50 percent of the park’s total budget**, giving Katz the leverage he needed to sway Miami commissioners to match the pledge.”

Actually useful insight into what it takes to get a municipal project like this off the ground - family wealth

[boi-cuzudo]

Expand Quote

For everyone saying that Evergreen is building these parks in smaller towns with nothing to skate, how is it that I live in Portland and have like 5 of these within a 10 minute drive? I’d love an actual new skatepark but these fucking things just keep popping up. Take the money from 5 small ones and just make one big one!

[close]

A couple things on this. Alberta park is the only park here designed and built by evergreen. They did build happy valley, but it was based on an existing design from someone else. They built gateway and luuwit, but those were designed by grindline.
We should have more parks! The city has a skatepark plan, but the last park built in that was Ed Benedict. The parks department is a nightmare of red tape.
All the little parks get done when they update a city park.
We need a skater in city hall.

Doesn't Alberta park looks like a big vagina? Its name is Kʰunamokwst Park, how do you pronounce it?

[boi-cuzudo]

Anyone skate Lebanon after the changes? I went there before the opening and didn't get to skate it but looks fun...

https://lebanonskatepark.org/

How about Silverton? Anyone skate that park too? I'm curious

[Frank and Fred]

Anyone skate Lebanon after the changes? I went there before the opening and didn't get to skate it but looks fun...

https://lebanonskatepark.org/

How about Silverton? Anyone skate that park too? I'm curious

I've skated Silverton. It's fun. Mellow transitions, steel coping. Something you can approach more like a mini ramp than some other gnarbuckle Dreamland  creations.

[CossRooper]

Expand Quote

Expand Quote

Expand Quote

what skater need to do is not get into the park board but get into position that bypasses the park board. Get the skateparks built in some unused area owned by a railroad or state DOT or "parking consortium" or something. This is basically what Lot 11 in Miami did which was either a lucky accident or the guy organizing that is an unsung local politics genius

[close]

the dude that did it also came to the table with literally half the money. i am stoked for miami and obviously the team that put it together are all time legends. but it should not be compared to your typical grassroots civic involvement scenario. hundreds of thousands of dollars will obviously sway your local officials.

Expand Quote

Faced with the prospect of losing the agreements that were already in place with the city, Katz turned to his family, which had created a charitable foundation the previous year. The family foundation wrote him a promissory note for 50 percent of the park’s total budget, giving Katz the leverage he needed to sway Miami commissioners to match the pledge. The lease agreement with the parking authority runs for 25 years and includes an option to renew at a cost of $1 per year.

[close]

https://www.miaminewtimes.com/arts/lot-11-is-miami-first-public-skate-park-11315431

[close]

“ Faced with the prospect of losing the agreements that were already in place with the city, **Katz turned to his family, which had created a charitable foundation the previous year. The family foundation wrote him a promissory note for 50 percent of the park’s total budget**, giving Katz the leverage he needed to sway Miami commissioners to match the pledge.”

Actually useful insight into what it takes to get a municipal project like this off the ground - family wealth

[close]

having money is key too but in the city where I used to live I was involved with a skate advocacy org that was bringing $300K from a rich guy who used to skate and the park department didn't care, they just didn't want anything to do with a skatepark. but it wasn't just skateparks they didn't really want to do anything that wasn't already on their agenda. especially any sort of sport court, they just DGAF and it seemed like they were low key ideologically opposed to "sports"

 maybe wrong but my takeaway was its probably better to not involve a city's park board at all if there is some alternate path available. but I suppose its different for each city

That's really interesting. I definitely take your point about treading lightly with various city departments, i am sure some of them are just swamps of red tape and indecision. to give even more credit to the miami team, based on that article they still had to mess around with the various city departments for like 4 years and the money just sort of pushed it across the finish line.

to your point, i know some other parks in Florida were built as part of large scale development projects (e.g. along waterfronts in prime areas), and not necessarily a pure parks department "lets build a skatepark" sort of thing. in other words, the skatepark was just an element of a multi million dollar project meant to make an area look cute and safe and make people want to move there and buy a million dollar condo, its usually not just for the common good.

[sharkjumper]

Anyone skate Lebanon after the changes? I went there before the opening and didn't get to skate it but looks fun...

https://lebanonskatepark.org/

How about Silverton? Anyone skate that park too? I'm curious

I've skated both.
Lebanon is fun.  The street zone was built by a local contractor.  Definitely fun, but a little quirky.  Spacing of some obstacles are weird.  There's an odd lump in front of a manual pad.  Most of the ledges have brick for their tops.  Some transitions are kinda odd.  But all of it is skateable.  The bowl seems to be built by a skatepark company.  It's a fun park.

It's been a while since I skated Silverton.  The bowl was fun, and it's nice that is has the little street path.  Feels well rounded for a tiny town's skatepark.

[WobbleHeadBob]

Expand Quote

Expand Quote

Expand Quote

paine doesn't look that bad to me. what's wrong with it?

[close]

Not enough pump bumps

[close]

The steps are all stupidly long but low. If you can do anything better than ollie the 4 you are really good. If you do anything over the 6 you should probably be on flow somewhere.

[close]

Okay let’s relax. The 6 is big but it’s not THAT big or maybe I should’ve been on flow years ago.

that it definitely a 5

[boi-cuzudo]

Expand Quote

Anyone skate Lebanon after the changes? I went there before the opening and didn't get to skate it but looks fun...

https://lebanonskatepark.org/

How about Silverton? Anyone skate that park too? I'm curious

[close]

I've skated Silverton. It's fun. Mellow transitions, steel coping. Something you can approach more like a mini ramp than some other gnarbuckle Dreamland  creations.

Thank you, I will definitely stop by sometime!