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General Discussion => WHATEVER => Topic started by: OldieButFrenchie on April 18, 2020, 09:46:53 AM
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allright this is where you can make your case. For those who think a Jewish state has no right to exist, well explain your point.
My view is that 1, other people have no state. Palestine is no exception, it is simply a trendy cause, and it also attracts a lot of arab solidarity. Let me remind you that there are other people who have no state, like the berbers and the kurds. But strangely no one gives a fuck about them.
2 : Israel is the only democracy in the region. There is not one arab country with democracy, unfortunately.
3 : to explain my position a bit more, I have thought a lot about this conflict because France has Europe's largest Jewish AND muslim population. I have friends on both sides and unfortunately this conflict resonates in France a lot. We even had crazy fanatics like Mohammed Merah gunning down 8 year old kids in front of a Jewish school.
Finally: let's try to keep this civilized. ::)
Edit: totally forgot to explain this discussion started in the Ryan Lay Palestine thread
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Finally: let's try to keep this civilized. ::)
Good luck.
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speak in absolutes much?
but, i'll bite...how do you defend something's "right to exist" when its existence has meant such clear, consistent, and vicious attrition of what was there before?
(https://mtviewmirror.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/postcards.jpg)
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just let them scrap it out in the streets
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First off your map is misleading. Israel did not exist in 1946. Second, Israel has been constantly expanding, yes, but why? Because its neighbors kept attacking it and losing each successive war. And losing ground each time.
Also more generally: there are 22 arab states in the world. IMO there should be room for ONE jewish one. Also remember arabs are conquerors. Spain was colonized by Arab kingdoms for 700 years. Countries like Moroco, Algeria and Tunisia were not arab originally.
BTW I am not at all defending Israel's every action, they have done wrong like every other country. But I think Jews should have their own state.
Edit: I gotta leave the computer, I'll be back tomorrow. Also, I can't believe I'm still getting kooked over this. Not sure if it's hilarious or sad.
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First off your map is misleading. Israel did not exist in 1946. Second, Israel has been constantly expanding, yes, but why? Because its neighbors kept attacking it and losing each successive war. And losing ground each time.
Also more generally: there are 22 arab states in the world. IMO there should be room for ONE jewish one. Also remember arabs are conquerors. Spain was colonized by Arab kingdoms for 700 years. Countries like Moroco, Algeria and Tunisia were not arab originally.
BTW I am not at all defending Israel's every action, they have done wrong like every other country. But I think Jews should have their own state.
yeah, like i said, i'm not one for absolutes, so i think Israel has a "right to exist," it's just that the site that was chosen/created after WWII has proven to be a disastrous site for them to do so.
i think you present a fine academic argument--too bad it's not that easy on the ground to displace and dispossess people from the places where they are born, raised, and from where their families are from, right?
and then there's your point about past generations of conquerors, and...shit...what's your point? Palestine needs to answer for those 700 years you mention? or because of that, they deserve it? huh?
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First off your map is misleading. Israel did not exist in 1946. Second, Israel has been constantly expanding, yes, but why? Because its neighbors kept attacking it and losing each successive war. And losing ground each time.
Also more generally: there are 22 arab states in the world. IMO there should be room for ONE jewish one. Also remember arabs are conquerors. Spain was colonized by Arab kingdoms for 700 years. Countries like Moroco, Algeria and Tunisia were not arab originally.
BTW I am not at all defending Israel's every action, they have done wrong like every other country. But I think Jews should have their own state.
Edit: I gotta leave the computer, I'll be back tomorrow. Also, I can't believe I'm still getting kooked over this. Not sure if it's hilarious or sad.
i wouldn't kook you, even if i could man--i teach at the university level, and i'm glad that some of my students continue to choose this topic when writing their researched argument papers...
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Edit: I gotta leave the computer, I'll be back tomorrow.
Off to a Rassemblement national meeting?
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First off your map is misleading. Israel did not exist in 1946. Second, Israel has been constantly expanding, yes, but why? Because its neighbors kept attacking it and losing each successive war. And losing ground each time.
Also more generally: there are 22 arab states in the world. IMO there should be room for ONE jewish one. Also remember arabs are conquerors. Spain was colonized by Arab kingdoms for 700 years. Countries like Moroco, Algeria and Tunisia were not arab originally.
BTW I am not at all defending Israel's every action, they have done wrong like every other country. But I think Jews should have their own state.
yeah, like i said, i'm not one for absolutes, so i think Israel has a "right to exist," the site that was chose/created after WWII has proven to be a disastrous place site for them to do so.
i think you present a fine academic argument--too bad it's not that easy on the ground to displace and dispossess people from the places where they are born, raised, and from where their families are from, right?
and then there's your point about past generations of conquerors, and...shit...what's your point? Palestine needs to answer for those 700 years you mention? or because of that, they deserve it? huh?
I'm trying to give some context is all. I'm a history buff, I love reading about it and the Earth's history is just a long succession of conquests. Honestly how many people think colonization was only ever practiced by the west? How many people know Spain was colonized? Or how big the Turkish empire was?
Basically I support a 2 state solution and apparently so do you so I guess we agree to some extent. Allright I really gotta go this time.....
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i think you present a fine academic argument--too bad it's not that easy on the ground to displace and dispossess people from the places where they are born, raised, and from where their families are from, right?
It's not even academic. It's just pub-level ranting veiled in polite language.
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Shoutout for starting the thread.
The expansion is indefensible.
As a history buff I am sure you are well aware of the natural diaspora of peoples.
I fucking hate bullies. I haven’t been able to see this a different way.
I’ve gone online and it’s hard to find thought pieces that are not just shouting.
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What a weird thread topic. What prompted you to talk specifically about Israel’s right to exist, as opposed to, let’s say, continued human rights violations and war crimes in the Occupied Palestinian Territories, largely funded by the US?
As far as right to exist, well, it exists now so there really is no upside in turning the clock back. Was carving out some land and giving it to a prosecuted people a good idea? Might have seemed so at the time, but it ensued a series of conflicts that have not ceased for over half a century. Now, Israel is absolutely a horrible, belligerent, and oppressive state towards the Palestinian minority—and the US govt loves them. The state of Israel needs major reform if any solution is to be reached, and I do think its creation has had one of the worst outcomes stemming from a UN decision.
Like I said, its right to exist was solidified the second it was created. The Israeli state sucks, that is undeniable, but dismantling it would only cause more troubles for everyone involved. Israeli people deserve safety and happiness too, just not at the cost and on the backs of Palestinians’. All the UN did was re-home one group of refugees and create another...
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So far, this is more civilized than I anticipated.
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What a weird thread topic. What prompted you to talk specifically about Israel’s right to exist, as opposed to, let’s say, continued human rights violations and war crimes in the Occupied Palestinian Territories, largely funded by the US?
As far as right to exist, well, it exists now so there really is no upside in turning the clock back. Was carving out some land and giving it to a prosecuted people a good idea? Might have seemed so at the time, but it ensued a series of conflicts that have not ceased for over half a century. Now, Israel is absolutely a horrible, belligerent, and oppressive state towards the Palestinian minority—and the US govt loves them. The state of Israel needs major reform if any solution is to be reached, and I do think its creation has had one of the worst outcomes stemming from a UN decision.
Like I said, its right to exist was solidified the second it was created. The Israeli state sucks, that is undeniable, but dismantling it would only cause more troubles for everyone involved. Israeli people deserve safety and happiness too, just not at the cost and on the backs of Palestinians’. All the UN did was re-home one group of refugees and create another...
quick answer cause I forgot to explain: this discussion started in the Ryan Lay Palestine thread. Which I did not want to hijack. So maybe look there first.
Edit: holy shit I just made it to Pal status! what a weird thread to do it with...ah fuck it it's done, damn lockdown making me act weird. allright gotta log off for tonight, for good this time, see y'all tomorrow.
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I don’t think any state has a “right to exist”. Land is taken by force by governments and armies that don’t actually represent the people living within the borders. And what are borders if not a global caste system. Fuck all that noise.
That said some states/countries are worse than others and Israel is on some straight villain shit.
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Framing it in rights-talk without a philosophical foundation leads to argumentative impasse.
If someone affirms Israel's right and the other denies, there's no way to decide between them without:
Define rights, specifically right to exist
Evidence that nations are the types of entities that have rights, specifically right to exist
Evidence that Israel is (or is not) such a nation.
Then we can conclude whether Israel has a right to exist (or not).
A theological/contract argument is easier:
If they obey God's 600+ laws, then they have a claim to the land
They do not obey God's 600+ laws
So, they don't have a claim to the land
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speak in absolutes much?
but, i'll bite...how do you defend something's "right to exist" when its existence has meant such clear, consistent, and vicious attrition of what was there before?
(https://mtviewmirror.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/postcards.jpg)
Is your sig gif from "The Battle of Algiers"?
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TLDR
FREE GAZA!!!
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split it in half evenly?
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speak in absolutes much?
but, i'll bite...how do you defend something's "right to exist" when its existence has meant such clear, consistent, and vicious attrition of what was there before?
(https://mtviewmirror.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/postcards.jpg)
Is your sig gif from "The Battle of Algiers"?
yes
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I thought Jared Kushner fixed this whole situation after reading a whole 25 books.
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The entire region is fucked for life.
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well I slept like shit and I really don't feel like arguing for pages and pages so I posted in the "post you skating" thread instead.
As for this discussion, I'll try to keep it short, at least on my part. Let's just say again it really bothered me to see some guy write "death to Israel" in the Ryan Lay thread and nobody reacting at all. Straight antisemitism is what follows this type of attitude.
Oh just one more thing: nobody "carved out land" to give to Jews after WWII. Zionism started in the 19th century and Jews started settling in Palestine in 1919. And then, they fought the Brits and Palestinians to create the state. Because yeah Palestine did not exist as such, it was ruled by the Brits. It's a common misconception. Like the Algerian war for instance, since the battle of Algiers was mentioned: France did some fucked up things in Algeria but it wasn't a free country before the French came, it was the Turks that ruled there.
Anyways to you guys who think Palestinians are oppressed (which is true....), think about this: why does noone support the kurds? There's been civil wars in multiple arab countries, they never had their own country and Turkey especially does some horrible shit. Like murdering militant Kurds in the middle of Paris, that was just a few years back. Yet no one ever mentions that cause, like Palestinians are the only oppressed people on earth. And the reason for that IMHO, is just subconscious/very conscious antisemitism. And it's pretty entrenched. To the point where French Jews are leaving France and settling in Israel in record numbers these last few years. Right, fuck this thread, and fuck me for thinking it was possible to actually discuss this.
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I think my main problem with discussions of this kind is that people tend to either fall into the pro-Palestine or the pro-Israel camp. However, this is a regional conflict that is too complex to be turned into a simple binary issue. I'm also surprised how "outsiders" (and let's face it, we're all outsiders and this is not "our cause") often take very firm stances on a conflict that a) doesn't affect them directly and b) they don't know too much about. I don't claim to know much about that conflict either, but I feel like the more I learn, the more questions pop up and the more clear answers vanish into thin air.
Platitudes aside, obviously, Palestinian Arabs, Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews have been living in the area for a while nowa and no sensible solution can involve another displacement of people. However, I feel like a one-state solution is off the table and the two-state solution that many advisors have favored for many years is undermined both by radical Palestinian groups and the current right-wing Israeli government. Two of the major obstacles to peace are Israeli settlements in the West Bank (most of them illegal according to the UN) and groups like Hamas that are trying to escalate the conflict even further. Then there are also severe human rights abuses by IDF in the West Bank and the infamous corruption of the Palestinian National Authority.
When I travelled through Israel and the West Bank a few years ago, I also saw the many specific regional conflicts that won't be resolved any time soon. For example, in Hebron/Al-Khalil, a major city in the West Bank, you have the tomb of Abraham, which is holy to Judaism and Islam. The tomb is part of a religious building that used to be a mosque only (Al-Ibrahimi Mosque). After a radical Jewish settler killed dozens of people in an attack, the mosque was closed by the Israeli authorities. When it re-opened, it turned out that half of it was turned into a synagogue. Hebron itself is a divided city with a strictly Arab area (Zone H1) and Zone H2, which is populated by both Arabs and Jewish settlers, but effectively controlled by IDF and settlers. Al-Shahuda Street, once the main market in Hebron, is closed to Palestinians and effectively a ghost town today. I can't see how both parties could resolve that conflict. And that's just ONE city in the West Bank.
General questions I ask myself are: Which role should we as outsiders even play in this conflict? Is it even our business? Do we have a right to tell either party what to do? If we discuss this from an international point of view, shouldn't we tread lightly instead of escalating this conflict further? Does this conflict even need more escalation? I think it's also crucial to keep in mind that people on both sides have lost family members in this conflict. This is also deeply personal (for better or worse), which makes it even harder to respond to.
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thanks for a balanced and well thought-out post. especially interesting as you actually traveled there. The closest I got personnaly was the Sinai desert, where my mind was blown to see Israeli tourists with egyptian temporary licence plates covering the Israeli one. I never had thought Israelis would go to Egypt for tourism. That was in 2005 though, not sure it still does happen.
Anyways I totally agree with your statements, we are outsiders in this. I agree all the more since, like I said before, this conflict is being imported into France, where Jewish and Arab communities face each other with increasing distrust and unfortunately, hatred. It's fucking sad. I'm over 40 and it did not use to be that way. There have been multiple attacks on French Jews in the last 20 years and they all came from French arabs, reacting to a confllict that does not affect them at all.
On a lighter note, I really recommend reading "The Arab of the Future" graphic novel, by Riad Sattouf. The author is half-French half Syrian and he grew up in the Middle East. Those books tell the tale of his childhood between France, Syria and Lybia and it's just as funny as it is interesting. A compelling read. Actually everything Sattouf does is awesome.
(https://pen.org/wp-content/uploads/legacy/5p_Arab-52-101-17.jpg)
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well I slept like shit and I really don't feel like arguing for pages and pages so I posted in the "post you skating" thread instead.
As for this discussion, I'll try to keep it short, at least on my part. Let's just say again it really bothered me to see some guy write "death to Israel" in the Ryan Lay thread and nobody reacting at all. Straight antisemitism is what follows this type of attitude.
Oh just one more thing: nobody "carved out land" to give to Jews after WWII. Zionism started in the 19th century and Jews started settling in Palestine in 1919. And then, they fought the Brits and Palestinians to create the state. Because yeah Palestine did not exist as such, it was ruled by the Brits. It's a common misconception. Like the Algerian war for instance, since the battle of Algiers was mentioned: France did some fucked up things in Algeria but it wasn't a free country before the French came, it was the Turks that ruled there.
Anyways to you guys who think Palestinians are oppressed (which is true....), think about this: why does noone support the kurds? There's been civil wars in multiple arab countries, they never had their own country and Turkey especially does some horrible shit. Like murdering militant Kurds in the middle of Paris, that was just a few years back. Yet no one ever mentions that cause, like Palestinians are the only oppressed people on earth. And the reason for that IMHO, is just subconscious/very conscious antisemitism. And it's pretty entrenched. To the point where French Jews are leaving France and settling in Israel in record numbers these last few years. Right, fuck this thread, and fuck me for thinking it was possible to actually discuss this.
first, regarding your comment above regarding that crystal clear map--it is not "misleading," it does not say that Israel existed in 1946, it says clearly "Jewish Land" and then "Israeli Land" after 1947, which obviously are two corresponding geographical points on one historical/political trajectory.
regarding the bolded section above, why do you keep making this kind of rhetorical move? what does the Turks being there before, do for your argument? what do you want us all to take away from your comment regarding France's appetites, insecurities, and actions based off of the fact that "Algeria...wasn't a free country before the French came"? And how will this point--since you brought it up in this thread--help the rest of us understand "Israel's right to exist" when it is so absolutely at the expense of a population of people who had been there before it existed.
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well I slept like shit and I really don't feel like arguing for pages and pages so I posted in the "post you skating" thread instead.
As for this discussion, I'll try to keep it short, at least on my part. Let's just say again it really bothered me to see some guy write "death to Israel" in the Ryan Lay thread and nobody reacting at all. Straight antisemitism is what follows this type of attitude.
Oh just one more thing: nobody "carved out land" to give to Jews after WWII. Zionism started in the 19th century and Jews started settling in Palestine in 1919. And then, they fought the Brits and Palestinians to create the state. Because yeah Palestine did not exist as such, it was ruled by the Brits. It's a common misconception. Like the Algerian war for instance, since the battle of Algiers was mentioned: France did some fucked up things in Algeria but it wasn't a free country before the French came, it was the Turks that ruled there.
Anyways to you guys who think Palestinians are oppressed (which is true....), think about this: why does noone support the kurds? There's been civil wars in multiple arab countries, they never had their own country and Turkey especially does some horrible shit. Like murdering militant Kurds in the middle of Paris, that was just a few years back. Yet no one ever mentions that cause, like Palestinians are the only oppressed people on earth. And the reason for that IMHO, is just subconscious/very conscious antisemitism. And it's pretty entrenched. To the point where French Jews are leaving France and settling in Israel in record numbers these last few years. Right, fuck this thread, and fuck me for thinking it was possible to actually discuss this.
first, regarding your comment above regarding that crystal clear map--it is not "misleading," it does not say that Israel existed in 1946, it says clearly "Jewish Land" and then "Israeli Land" after 1947, which obviously are two corresponding geographical points on one historical/political trajectory.
regarding the bolded section above, why do you keep making this kind of rhetorical move? what does the Turks being there before, do for your argument? what do you want us all to take away from your comment regarding France's appetites, insecurities, and actions based off of the fact that "Algeria...wasn't a free country before the French came"? And how will this point--since you brought it up in this thread--help the rest of us understand "Israel's right to exist" when it is so absolutely at the expense of a population of people who had been there before it existed.
Jewish migration to Palestine started in the late 19th century. There were many Jews in Palestine before the state of Israel was founded in 1948. Yes, before the late 19th century, it was mostly Arabs who lived there, but as Frenchie pointed out, it was either the Ottoman Empire or the British who ruled the land. The Jewish population didn't invade a sovereign Palestine. I think this does help to understand why Israel has a right to exist.
That being said, this in no way justifies human rights violations and (illegal) settlements in the West Bank or the displacement of millions of Palestinians. However, it is the baseline for any sensible discussion how Israelis and Palestinians could live in relative peace.
If we don't accept that both Israeli Jews and Palestinian Arabs have a right to live where they are, what's the point of having any discussion at all? (Even if I don't think that we have a right to define who has a right to live there and who doesn't...)
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Of course they have right to exist. It’s the way humans work trough the history.
All powerful and most civilised countries build themselves on genocide of the weaker. When they are done with the process then they begin to lecture others about the rules and morals.
When you see genocidal countries in Europe like England, Dutch, Germany, France, Belgium , Portugal , Spain, Italy. They slaughtered people by millions to get rid of them, took the land and resources.
Israel just needs time and soon enough they will become moral vertical in the world.
Unfortunately evil won long time ago.. for example if Carthage beat Rome we would have much different civilisation right now and so on.
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Wait so you made this thread and now don’t want to discuss anything? Seems to me you just wanted your opinion validated. And are you also saying that Palestinian sympathy stems from widespread antisemtism? So since the Kurds aren’t fighting Israel... no one cares? If so, that is pretty fucked dude. Then are you implying France had a part in Algerian liberation from the Turks? I hope not (I reread and you didn’t say that; but how does it matter if the location was already occupied? Means it was up for grabs? I’m not understanding there). I guess they were a part of their liberation, if you count losing the Algerian war? I hope we agree that colonialism is no bueno.
The UN didn’t get to “carve it out” bc a civil war broke out in 1947 almost immediately after it was implemented and that war led to the creation of israel. The UN resolution on the partitioning of Palestine had been implemented but had to be cancelled. Two-states + jerusalem or something like that. Sounds real nice today...
It is easy to forget that tons of other countries were involved too, such as Britain and the US, in order to keep their interests in the area untouched. So i guess ‘mericans and brits are allowed in the discussion too? Whether they know it or not, they reaped the domestic benefits of their country’s actions abroad. Why do ppl think we shouldn’t discuss this as ardently if we are not immediately affected? Or are you talking more specifically about shouting matches or something? Not to be the “starving children” guy, but people are dying tragically and preventably every single day, not only in the OPT but all over the world—I think we are allowed to feel some type of way about it. It is also good to recognize we are outsiders, but if we didn’t have an opinion on these events, now that would be a bigger problem... Humans are intrinsically emotional, social, and political. Unfortunately sometimes it’s too much to handle for any one person, but we should at least try to engage in difficult topics with our head on our shoulders and our heart on our sleeve every now and then. Genuinely. I’m corny sure, but we can’t put horseblinders on and ignore other peoples’ struggles for our whole lives. Empathy is a must, even if only occasionally...
I think the “right to exist” question is the wrong one. I think your question was “why did so-and-so diss Israel and no one batted an eye?” And i think the answer is that the state/govt of Israel sucks and is actually quite easy to hate on. I’d like to believe a straight-up antisemitic insult on the Israeli people would not have been ignored like that.
But also, tons of crazy fucked up shit is said on SLAP by random kooks and even pals. Sometimes you just hit the “Ignore” and move along...
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Wait so you made this thread and now don’t want to discuss anything? Seems to me you just wanted your opinion validated. And are you also saying that Palestinian sympathy stems from widespread antisemtism? So since the Kurds aren’t fighting Israel... no one cares? If so, that is pretty fucked dude. Then are you implying France had a part in Algerian liberation from the Turks? I hope not (I reread and you didn’t say that; but how does it matter if the location was already occupied? Means it was up for grabs? I’m not understanding there). I guess they were a part of their liberation, if you count losing the Algerian war? I hope we agree that colonialism is no bueno.
The UN didn’t get to “carve it out” bc a civil war broke out in 1947 almost immediately after it was implemented and that war led to the creation of israel. The UN resolution on the partitioning of Palestine had been implemented but had to be cancelled. Two-states + jerusalem or something like that. Sounds real nice today...
It is easy to forget that tons of other countries were involved too, such as Britain and the US, in order to keep their interests in the area untouched. So i guess ‘mericans and brits are allowed in the discussion too? Whether they know it or not, they reaped the domestic benefits of their country’s actions abroad. Why do ppl think we shouldn’t discuss this as ardently if we are not immediately affected? Or are you talking more specifically about shouting matches or something? Not to be the “starving children” guy, but people are dying tragically and preventably every single day, not only in the OPT but all over the world—I think we are allowed to feel some type of way about it. It is also good to recognize we are outsiders, but if we didn’t have an opinion on these events, now that would be a bigger problem... Humans are intrinsically emotional, social, and political. Unfortunately sometimes it’s too much to handle for any one person, but we should at least try to engage in difficult topics with our head on our shoulders and our heart on our sleeve every now and then. Genuinely. I’m corny sure, but we can’t put horseblinders on and ignore other peoples’ struggles for our whole lives. Empathy is a must, even if only occasionally...
I think the “right to exist” question is the wrong one. I think your question was “why did so-and-so diss Israel and no one batted an eye?” And i think the answer is that the state/govt of Israel sucks and is actually quite easy to hate on. I’d like to believe a straight-up antisemitic insult on the Israeli people would not have been ignored like that.
But also, tons of crazy fucked up shit is said on SLAP by random kooks and even pals. Sometimes you just hit the “Ignore” and move along...
I didn't start this thread, but I think with the Middle East conflict, the question is where you set your baseline for a discussion. For example, if one plays the blame game and concludes that Israel shouldn't exist and Jewish people shouldn't live on land they stole from Arabs... then your solution is what exactly? You seem to argue from a humanitarian perspective, which I can perfectly agree with.
However, maybe that's just me, but I've seen a lot of these discussion go awry. And I agree with you 100%, it is important to have an opinion on foreign affairs and I think it is important to hold Israel to certain standards and make clear where they violate UN resolutions and human rights, but on the other hand, it's also important to look at this conflict from Israel's point of view (which in no way means justifying its actions). I also hate when people defend or shrug their shoulders at Russia's discrimination of homosexuals by citing "cultural differences", just to name one example, but I also think that one shouldn't be too quick to tell other countries how to run their business. Because you're right, colonialism is no bueno, and that's kind of a colonial mindset.
And as for Israel being the bad guy, I think Israel is actually a pretty decent liberal democracy within its own borders (albeit decreasingly so), but a brutal occupying force in the West Bank.
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Empathy is a must, even if only occasionally...
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I went to The West Bank in 2015 with SkatePal to build/teach kids and I'd just like to say that having opinions about the situation is fine but you really have no real understanding and perspective until you've experienced what it's like to be a Palestinian living there. I don't really know where to start. This video is from an Israeli Jew who's father was a founding member of the IDF. His account of life is very honest and he has no reason to lie.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOaxAckFCuQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1NR5_ZiN-g
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If none of you interested in this have listened to the first iteration of the Martyr Made podcast, you should.
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well I slept like shit and I really don't feel like arguing for pages and pages so I posted in the "post you skating" thread instead.
As for this discussion, I'll try to keep it short, at least on my part. Let's just say again it really bothered me to see some guy write "death to Israel" in the Ryan Lay thread and nobody reacting at all. Straight antisemitism is what follows this type of attitude.
Oh just one more thing: nobody "carved out land" to give to Jews after WWII. Zionism started in the 19th century and Jews started settling in Palestine in 1919. And then, they fought the Brits and Palestinians to create the state. Because yeah Palestine did not exist as such, it was ruled by the Brits. It's a common misconception. Like the Algerian war for instance, since the battle of Algiers was mentioned: France did some fucked up things in Algeria but it wasn't a free country before the French came, it was the Turks that ruled there.
Anyways to you guys who think Palestinians are oppressed (which is true....), think about this: why does noone support the kurds? There's been civil wars in multiple arab countries, they never had their own country and Turkey especially does some horrible shit. Like murdering militant Kurds in the middle of Paris, that was just a few years back. Yet no one ever mentions that cause, like Palestinians are the only oppressed people on earth. And the reason for that IMHO, is just subconscious/very conscious antisemitism. And it's pretty entrenched. To the point where French Jews are leaving France and settling in Israel in record numbers these last few years. Right, fuck this thread, and fuck me for thinking it was possible to actually discuss this.
I think rather than antisemitism, it's more about a western country/white people oppressing third world people and also U.S backing the fight draws a lot of attention from the anti-america crowd. So it's more about protesting the actions of western countries rather than supporting the oppressed group. When it's some non-western country oppressing people, it gets too distant for the masses to care
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well I slept like shit and I really don't feel like arguing for pages and pages so I posted in the "post you skating" thread instead.
As for this discussion, I'll try to keep it short, at least on my part. Let's just say again it really bothered me to see some guy write "death to Israel" in the Ryan Lay thread and nobody reacting at all. Straight antisemitism is what follows this type of attitude.
Oh just one more thing: nobody "carved out land" to give to Jews after WWII. Zionism started in the 19th century and Jews started settling in Palestine in 1919. And then, they fought the Brits and Palestinians to create the state. Because yeah Palestine did not exist as such, it was ruled by the Brits. It's a common misconception. Like the Algerian war for instance, since the battle of Algiers was mentioned: France did some fucked up things in Algeria but it wasn't a free country before the French came, it was the Turks that ruled there.
Anyways to you guys who think Palestinians are oppressed (which is true....), think about this: why does noone support the kurds? There's been civil wars in multiple arab countries, they never had their own country and Turkey especially does some horrible shit. Like murdering militant Kurds in the middle of Paris, that was just a few years back. Yet no one ever mentions that cause, like Palestinians are the only oppressed people on earth. And the reason for that IMHO, is just subconscious/very conscious antisemitism. And it's pretty entrenched. To the point where French Jews are leaving France and settling in Israel in record numbers these last few years. Right, fuck this thread, and fuck me for thinking it was possible to actually discuss this.
I think rather than antisemitism, it's more about a western country/white people oppressing third world people and also U.S backing the fight draws a lot of attention from the anti-america crowd. So it's more about protesting the actions of western countries rather than supporting the oppressed group. When it's some non-western country oppressing people, it gets too distant for the masses to care
Why is standing in solidarity with Palestinians losing their country and standing up against oppression and apartheid anti-Semitic?
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well I slept like shit and I really don't feel like arguing for pages and pages so I posted in the "post you skating" thread instead.
As for this discussion, I'll try to keep it short, at least on my part. Let's just say again it really bothered me to see some guy write "death to Israel" in the Ryan Lay thread and nobody reacting at all. Straight antisemitism is what follows this type of attitude.
Oh just one more thing: nobody "carved out land" to give to Jews after WWII. Zionism started in the 19th century and Jews started settling in Palestine in 1919. And then, they fought the Brits and Palestinians to create the state. Because yeah Palestine did not exist as such, it was ruled by the Brits. It's a common misconception. Like the Algerian war for instance, since the battle of Algiers was mentioned: France did some fucked up things in Algeria but it wasn't a free country before the French came, it was the Turks that ruled there.
Anyways to you guys who think Palestinians are oppressed (which is true....), think about this: why does noone support the kurds? There's been civil wars in multiple arab countries, they never had their own country and Turkey especially does some horrible shit. Like murdering militant Kurds in the middle of Paris, that was just a few years back. Yet no one ever mentions that cause, like Palestinians are the only oppressed people on earth. And the reason for that IMHO, is just subconscious/very conscious antisemitism. And it's pretty entrenched. To the point where French Jews are leaving France and settling in Israel in record numbers these last few years. Right, fuck this thread, and fuck me for thinking it was possible to actually discuss this.
I think rather than antisemitism, it's more about a western country/white people oppressing third world people and also U.S backing the fight draws a lot of attention from the anti-america crowd. So it's more about protesting the actions of western countries rather than supporting the oppressed group. When it's some non-western country oppressing people, it gets too distant for the masses to care
Why is standing in solidarity with Palestinians losing their country and standing up against oppression and apartheid anti-Semitic?
This is another reason it has been very difficult for me to empathize with Israel: the framing of ANY criticism as antisemitism. That is a red herring strategy designed with the purpose to illicit emotional ‘arguments’ such as ‘Israel’s right to exist’, which makes it sound like Israel is on the losing side of something. A cursory glance around the disparity between the lives of those inside of Israel and those living in Palestine snow quite the opposite.
Thanks for the conversations so far.
Thanks for the links.
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And, I mean, technically speaking, being anti-Palestinian is also being anti-semitic.
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Its a stupid situation on both sides and murica should have never got involved
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My view is that 1, other people have no state. Palestine is no exception, it is simply a trendy cause, and it also attracts a lot of arab solidarity. Let me remind you that there are other people who have no state, like the berbers and the kurds. But strangely no one gives a fuck about them.
I don't understand where you're going here - you say you support a two state solution later in this thread, yet here you wonder why people would support a Palestinian state and claim the reason people do support Palestine is because it's trendy or because they're anti-Semitic? It couldn't be that support is growing for Palestine as more people around the world become aware and knowledgeable of the situation? Also it seems like if you really do support a two state solution you would understand why people support a Palestinian state and you wouldn't dismiss their support as simply following a trend or being anti-Semitic.
Furthermore people do care about the formation of an independent Kurdistan. A lot of people actually. Regardless, these situations are vastly different from one another for so many reasons and have their own complications. It is totally reasonable for a person to support one situation and not necessarily support (or support as strongly) the other.
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2 : Israel is the only democracy in the region. There is not one arab country with democracy, unfortunately.
I'm not sure what point you're making here? Should new states only be allowed to form if they are a democracy? Does Israel's ability to form a democracy give it a greater right to exist/a more superior position in comparison to Arab countries and potential new Arab states? Just trying to guess what you mean by this point.
The reason for a lack of democracies in the Arab world is wildly complicated. For one, Western-style democracy is not a one size fits all solution that will work for every country. Also, Western powers love to point their finger at the Middle East (and other areas of the world) and criticize them for their instability, corruption, and lack of democracy, painting them as inferior nations and their people as uncivilized. This is also the message that is fed to the people in these western nations. However it is decades of continued intervention from these same western powers to purposefully destabilize the region that has made it impossible to institute a democracy in most of these countries.
The US especially is guilty of this and has directly helped several authoritarian regimes in these Arab countries come to power. The US and UK even led a coup to dismantle democracy in Iran in 1953 because the elected leader did not agree with the US/UK's control of Iranian oil. This resulted in a monarchy that lasted several decades in Iran (I realize Iran is not an Arabic country, however it is in the region of discussion and the dismantling of its democracy has a ripple effect to nearby Arab countries making it less likely for other democracies to form; it also serves as an example of the actions the US and UK are willing to take for their own interests at the expense and well-being of this region and how they do not actually care or want stability/democracies in this area). Hamas was also helped to power through repeated intervention by the US and other western powers. And the list goes on (not just in this region, but around the world).
Despite all of this, there are Arab countries that do currently have partial democracies and there are growing movements throughout the region pushing for instituting democracies. The Arab Spring and Libyan Civil Uprising are both examples of Arabs rising against their governments for the hope of a better life and democracy. They are living and dying for the cause.
Right, fuck this thread, and fuck me for thinking it was possible to actually discuss this.
This has actually been a pretty tame thread considering the subject matter and this being Slap. You started the topic and multiple people have given you honest, thought-out answers regarding their position while also challenging your statements in a pretty respectful manner (for a skateboard messagboard). People are discussing it. Why are you upset?
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well I slept like shit and I really don't feel like arguing for pages and pages so I posted in the "post you skating" thread instead.
As for this discussion, I'll try to keep it short, at least on my part. Let's just say again it really bothered me to see some guy write "death to Israel" in the Ryan Lay thread and nobody reacting at all. Straight antisemitism is what follows this type of attitude.
Oh just one more thing: nobody "carved out land" to give to Jews after WWII. Zionism started in the 19th century and Jews started settling in Palestine in 1919. And then, they fought the Brits and Palestinians to create the state. Because yeah Palestine did not exist as such, it was ruled by the Brits. It's a common misconception. Like the Algerian war for instance, since the battle of Algiers was mentioned: France did some fucked up things in Algeria but it wasn't a free country before the French came, it was the Turks that ruled there.
Anyways to you guys who think Palestinians are oppressed (which is true....), think about this: why does noone support the kurds? There's been civil wars in multiple arab countries, they never had their own country and Turkey especially does some horrible shit. Like murdering militant Kurds in the middle of Paris, that was just a few years back. Yet no one ever mentions that cause, like Palestinians are the only oppressed people on earth. And the reason for that IMHO, is just subconscious/very conscious antisemitism. And it's pretty entrenched. To the point where French Jews are leaving France and settling in Israel in record numbers these last few years. Right, fuck this thread, and fuck me for thinking it was possible to actually discuss this.
first, regarding your comment above regarding that crystal clear map--it is not "misleading," it does not say that Israel existed in 1946, it says clearly "Jewish Land" and then "Israeli Land" after 1947, which obviously are two corresponding geographical points on one historical/political trajectory.
regarding the bolded section above, why do you keep making this kind of rhetorical move? what does the Turks being there before, do for your argument? what do you want us all to take away from your comment regarding France's appetites, insecurities, and actions based off of the fact that "Algeria...wasn't a free country before the French came"? And how will this point--since you brought it up in this thread--help the rest of us understand "Israel's right to exist" when it is so absolutely at the expense of a population of people who had been there before it existed.
damn it how am I going to answer all of you....Well I guess it's true I started the thread, so I'll try.
First, you are right about the map, I take it back.
Second, I was not trying a "rethorical move", but again trying to provide context. Ie: grabbing land by violence is the rule, not the exception in the history of the world. And that applies to the creation of Israel, I believe.
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Wait so you made this thread and now don’t want to discuss anything? Seems to me you just wanted your opinion validated. And are you also saying that Palestinian sympathy stems from widespread antisemtism? So since the Kurds aren’t fighting Israel... no one cares? If so, that is pretty fucked dude. Then are you implying France had a part in Algerian liberation from the Turks? I hope not (I reread and you didn’t say that; but how does it matter if the location was already occupied? Means it was up for grabs? I’m not understanding there). I guess they were a part of their liberation, if you count losing the Algerian war? I hope we agree that colonialism is no bueno.
The UN didn’t get to “carve it out” bc a civil war broke out in 1947 almost immediately after it was implemented and that war led to the creation of israel. The UN resolution on the partitioning of Palestine had been implemented but had to be cancelled. Two-states + jerusalem or something like that. Sounds real nice today...
It is easy to forget that tons of other countries were involved too, such as Britain and the US, in order to keep their interests in the area untouched. So i guess ‘mericans and brits are allowed in the discussion too? Whether they know it or not, they reaped the domestic benefits of their country’s actions abroad. Why do ppl think we shouldn’t discuss this as ardently if we are not immediately affected? Or are you talking more specifically about shouting matches or something? Not to be the “starving children” guy, but people are dying tragically and preventably every single day, not only in the OPT but all over the world—I think we are allowed to feel some type of way about it. It is also good to recognize we are outsiders, but if we didn’t have an opinion on these events, now that would be a bigger problem... Humans are intrinsically emotional, social, and political. Unfortunately sometimes it’s too much to handle for any one person, but we should at least try to engage in difficult topics with our head on our shoulders and our heart on our sleeve every now and then. Genuinely. I’m corny sure, but we can’t put horseblinders on and ignore other peoples’ struggles for our whole lives. Empathy is a must, even if only occasionally...
I think the “right to exist” question is the wrong one. I think your question was “why did so-and-so diss Israel and no one batted an eye?” And i think the answer is that the state/govt of Israel sucks and is actually quite easy to hate on. I’d like to believe a straight-up antisemitic insult on the Israeli people would not have been ignored like that.
But also, tons of crazy fucked up shit is said on SLAP by random kooks and even pals. Sometimes you just hit the “Ignore” and move along...
nah I just had one of those nights where you barely sleep and then did not feel like arguing on the internet. I generally don't like arguing on the Internet, which is why I regretted creating the thread....But it just bothered me too much to see no one reacting.
yes you are right:
I think the “right to exist” question is the wrong one. I think your question was “why did so-and-so diss Israel and no one batted an eye?” And i think the answer is that the state/govt of Israel sucks and is actually quite easy to hate on. I’d like to believe a straight-up antisemitic insult on the Israeli people would not have been ignored like that.
also I never said that:
And are you also saying that Palestinian sympathy stems from widespread antisemtism?
I meant the fact that cause attracts so much sympathy compared to other causes stems from 1/antisemitism. And 2/anti-americanism.
Then are you implying France had a part in Algerian liberation from the Turks? I hope not (I reread and you didn’t say that; but how does it matter if the location was already occupied? Means it was up for grabs? I’m not understanding there). I guess they were a part of their liberation, if you count losing the Algerian war? I hope we agree that colonialism is no bueno.
no I did not imply that. I brought up the ottoman empire (the Turks) because most anti-colonialists act as if only western countries were imperialistic. Tottally forgetting the whole of the middle east was ruled by the Turks for 400 years or so. And yes we can agree colonialism is "bad", in the sense war is "bad", but neither of them will ever stop.
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well I slept like shit and I really don't feel like arguing for pages and pages so I posted in the "post you skating" thread instead.
As for this discussion, I'll try to keep it short, at least on my part. Let's just say again it really bothered me to see some guy write "death to Israel" in the Ryan Lay thread and nobody reacting at all. Straight antisemitism is what follows this type of attitude.
Oh just one more thing: nobody "carved out land" to give to Jews after WWII. Zionism started in the 19th century and Jews started settling in Palestine in 1919. And then, they fought the Brits and Palestinians to create the state. Because yeah Palestine did not exist as such, it was ruled by the Brits. It's a common misconception. Like the Algerian war for instance, since the battle of Algiers was mentioned: France did some fucked up things in Algeria but it wasn't a free country before the French came, it was the Turks that ruled there.
Anyways to you guys who think Palestinians are oppressed (which is true....), think about this: why does noone support the kurds? There's been civil wars in multiple arab countries, they never had their own country and Turkey especially does some horrible shit. Like murdering militant Kurds in the middle of Paris, that was just a few years back. Yet no one ever mentions that cause, like Palestinians are the only oppressed people on earth. And the reason for that IMHO, is just subconscious/very conscious antisemitism. And it's pretty entrenched. To the point where French Jews are leaving France and settling in Israel in record numbers these last few years. Right, fuck this thread, and fuck me for thinking it was possible to actually discuss this.
I think rather than antisemitism, it's more about a western country/white people oppressing third world people and also U.S backing the fight draws a lot of attention from the anti-america crowd. So it's more about protesting the actions of western countries rather than supporting the oppressed group. When it's some non-western country oppressing people, it gets too distant for the masses to care
I agree with that generally. But when I say part of the support for the Palestinian cause stems from antisemitism, I speak from experience, it's something I had to break friendships over. Just a personal story: a buddy I used to skate with was so upset about the Middle East he started talking about burning synagogues....in France. That's when I stopped talking to him. This a real story, not some made-up shit. I haven't talked to him since.
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well I slept like shit and I really don't feel like arguing for pages and pages so I posted in the "post you skating" thread instead.
As for this discussion, I'll try to keep it short, at least on my part. Let's just say again it really bothered me to see some guy write "death to Israel" in the Ryan Lay thread and nobody reacting at all. Straight antisemitism is what follows this type of attitude.
Oh just one more thing: nobody "carved out land" to give to Jews after WWII. Zionism started in the 19th century and Jews started settling in Palestine in 1919. And then, they fought the Brits and Palestinians to create the state. Because yeah Palestine did not exist as such, it was ruled by the Brits. It's a common misconception. Like the Algerian war for instance, since the battle of Algiers was mentioned: France did some fucked up things in Algeria but it wasn't a free country before the French came, it was the Turks that ruled there.
Anyways to you guys who think Palestinians are oppressed (which is true....), think about this: why does noone support the kurds? There's been civil wars in multiple arab countries, they never had their own country and Turkey especially does some horrible shit. Like murdering militant Kurds in the middle of Paris, that was just a few years back. Yet no one ever mentions that cause, like Palestinians are the only oppressed people on earth. And the reason for that IMHO, is just subconscious/very conscious antisemitism. And it's pretty entrenched. To the point where French Jews are leaving France and settling in Israel in record numbers these last few years. Right, fuck this thread, and fuck me for thinking it was possible to actually discuss this.
I think rather than antisemitism, it's more about a western country/white people oppressing third world people and also U.S backing the fight draws a lot of attention from the anti-america crowd. So it's more about protesting the actions of western countries rather than supporting the oppressed group. When it's some non-western country oppressing people, it gets too distant for the masses to care
Why is standing in solidarity with Palestinians losing their country and standing up against oppression and apartheid anti-Semitic?
that is absolutely not what I said. I was talking about the fact that that cause attracts so much sympathy compared to others.
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I went to The West Bank in 2015 with SkatePal to build/teach kids and I'd just like to say that having opinions about the situation is fine but you really have no real understanding and perspective until you've experienced what it's like to be a Palestinian living there. I don't really know where to start. This video is from an Israeli Jew who's father was a founding member of the IDF. His account of life is very honest and he has no reason to lie.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOaxAckFCuQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1NR5_ZiN-g
seems interesting, thank you. I'll watch it when I have a bit of time. But even him thinks Israel has a right to exist. Which is all I said from the beginning. He supports a one-state solution, but still.
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My view is that 1, other people have no state. Palestine is no exception, it is simply a trendy cause, and it also attracts a lot of arab solidarity. Let me remind you that there are other people who have no state, like the berbers and the kurds. But strangely no one gives a fuck about them.
I don't understand where you're going here - you say you support a two state solution later in this thread, yet here you wonder why people would support a Palestinian state and claim the reason people do support Palestine is because it's trendy or because they're anti-Semitic? It couldn't be that support is growing for Palestine as more people around the world become aware and knowledgeable of the situation? Also it seems like if you really do support a two state solution you would understand why people support a Palestinian state and you wouldn't dismiss their support as simply following a trend or being anti-Semitic.
Furthermore people do care about the formation of an independent Kurdistan. A lot of people actually. Regardless, these situations are vastly different from one another for so many reasons and have their own complications. It is totally reasonable for a person to support one situation and not necessarily support (or support as strongly) the other.
you really think "many" people support an independent Kurdistan? Most people I talk to barely know who the kurds are. Or the berbers. And why would you support a palestinian state but not a kurdish one?? Why is it ok for Turkey to military oppress, but not for the IDF? It's a similar situation. Erdogan is just as dangerous as Netanyahu.
(I do agree though that I started this conversation not in the best manner. I was pissed off....and now I am in way over my head cause I really don't have the time to answer all of you intelligently)
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2 : Israel is the only democracy in the region. There is not one arab country with democracy, unfortunately.
I'm not sure what point you're making here? Should new states only be allowed to form if they are a democracy? Does Israel's ability to form a democracy give it a greater right to exist/a more superior position in comparison to Arab countries and potential new Arab states? Just trying to guess what you mean by this point.
The reason for a lack of democracies in the Arab world is wildly complicated. For one, Western-style democracy is not a one size fits all solution that will work for every country. Also, Western powers love to point their finger at the Middle East (and other areas of the world) and criticize them for their instability, corruption, and lack of democracy, painting them as inferior nations and their people as uncivilized. This is also the message that is fed to the people in these western nations. However it is decades of continued intervention from these same western powers to purposefully destabilize the region that has made it impossible to institute a democracy in most of these countries.
The US especially is guilty of this and has directly helped several authoritarian regimes in these Arab countries come to power. The US and UK even led a coup to dismantle democracy in Iran in 1953 because the elected leader did not agree with the US/UK's control of Iranian oil. This resulted in a monarchy that lasted several decades in Iran (I realize Iran is not an Arabic country, however it is in the region of discussion and the dismantling of its democracy has a ripple effect to nearby Arab countries making it less likely for other democracies to form; it also serves as an example of the actions the US and UK are willing to take for their own interests at the expense and well-being of this region and how they do not actually care or want stability/democracies in this area). Hamas was also helped to power through repeated intervention by the US and other western powers. And the list goes on (not just in this region, but around the world).
Despite all of this, there are Arab countries that do currently have partial democracies and there are growing movements throughout the region pushing for instituting democracies. The Arab Spring and Libyan Civil Uprising are both examples of Arabs rising against their governments for the hope of a better life and democracy. They are living and dying for the cause.
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Right, fuck this thread, and fuck me for thinking it was possible to actually discuss this.
This has actually been a pretty tame thread considering the subject matter and this being Slap. You started the topic and multiple people have given you honest, thought-out answers regarding their position while also challenging your statements in a pretty respectful manner (for a skateboard messagboard). People are discussing it. Why are you upset?
yes that was what I meant: Israel's ability to form a democracy gives it a "moral high ground" if you will. There are arab members of the Knesset but nowhere in the arab world can you find jewish members of parliament, I don't think so. Everything else you said is true and I cannot disagree with it. But if you take the exemple of Algeria, how long can you blame French colonialism for the fucked-up state the country is in? Nobody has intervened in Algeria since independence, 60 years ago, but it is still a one-party state.
EDIT: I'll try to keep this going for one more day, but I really lack the time to answer everyone. I created the thread in a spur of the moment and a lot of you guys actually gave thought-out answers, which is awesome. So I guess I got what I wanted. But I can't deal with so much internet-arguing so I'll give 24 more hiours and then shut the fuck up for a while.
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This is a topic that nobody wants to touch with a ten foot pole. Nobody wants to be critical of the Jewish state of Israel, in fear of being labelled anti Semitic. You can't speak in absolutes on both sides, neither the Palestinians nor the Israelite are perfect, and it is hard to look at the big picture.
Israel wins all the wars and has gained almost the entire territory because they receive US and western military backing in the form of "aid". When Palestine receives military aid from Arab countries it is viewed internationally as "terrorism"
I feel terrible for the people of Palestine. I feel like Israel has done to the Palestinians as was done to them in the early 20th century. History repeating itself.
I figured Jared would have had this figured out by now.
religion is so fucking stupid and divisive, fuck all religion.
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This is a topic that nobody wants to touch with a ten foot pole. Nobody wants to be critical of the Jewish state of Israel, in fear of being labelled anti Semitic. You can't speak in absolutes on both sides, neither the Palestinians nor the Israelite are perfect, and it is hard to look at the big picture.
Israel wins all the wars and has gained almost the entire territory because they receive US and western military backing in the form of "aid". When Palestine receives military aid from Arab countries it is viewed internationally as "terrorism"
I feel terrible for the people of Palestine. I feel like Israel has done to the Palestinians as was done to them in the early 20th century. History repeating itself.
I figured Jared would have had this figured out by now.
religion is so fucking stupid and divisive, fuck all religion.
Exactly. Why are freedom fighters/resistors considered terrorists? How can they be lumped into the same category as ISIS who specifically try to dominate and conquer. Palestinians only 'fight' to protect their land, rights and liberties.
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This is a topic that nobody wants to touch with a ten foot pole. Nobody wants to be critical of the Jewish state of Israel, in fear of being labelled anti Semitic. You can't speak in absolutes on both sides, neither the Palestinians nor the Israelite are perfect, and it is hard to look at the big picture.
Israel wins all the wars and has gained almost the entire territory because they receive US and western military backing in the form of "aid". When Palestine receives military aid from Arab countries it is viewed internationally as "terrorism"
I feel terrible for the people of Palestine. I feel like Israel has done to the Palestinians as was done to them in the early 20th century. History repeating itself.
I figured Jared would have had this figured out by now.
religion is so fucking stupid and divisive, fuck all religion.
Exactly. Why are freedom fighters/resistors considered terrorists? How can they be lumped into the same category as ISIS who specifically try to dominate and conquer. Palestinians only 'fight' to protect their land, rights and liberties.
I’ve been trying to stay out of this, but I feel the following statement is innocuous: they are not universally considered terrorists. I believe you are interpreting this through the filter of western media, but I may be mistaken.
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This is a topic that nobody wants to touch with a ten foot pole. Nobody wants to be critical of the Jewish state of Israel, in fear of being labelled anti Semitic. You can't speak in absolutes on both sides, neither the Palestinians nor the Israelite are perfect, and it is hard to look at the big picture.
Israel wins all the wars and has gained almost the entire territory because they receive US and western military backing in the form of "aid". When Palestine receives military aid from Arab countries it is viewed internationally as "terrorism"
I feel terrible for the people of Palestine. I feel like Israel has done to the Palestinians as was done to them in the early 20th century. History repeating itself.
I figured Jared would have had this figured out by now.
religion is so fucking stupid and divisive, fuck all religion.
it's way bigger than that. The wars were waged with Egypt, Syria and Jordan, mainly, not Palestine. And those 3 countries received Russian aid. Basically another cold war proxy war.
religion is so fucking stupid and divisive, fuck all religion.
now that I can agree with!
Also to give you guys an idea of what I mean, when I speak about the Kurds....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_murder_of_Kurdish_activists_in_Paris (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_murder_of_Kurdish_activists_in_Paris)
So if the Turkish secret service does not hesitate to execute 3 women in the middle of Paris in 2013, imagine what they do in Turkey. Yet noone ever mentions this civil war. Where's the Oxfam boycott ? where's the protests?
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well I slept like shit and I really don't feel like arguing for pages and pages so I posted in the "post you skating" thread instead.
As for this discussion, I'll try to keep it short, at least on my part. Let's just say again it really bothered me to see some guy write "death to Israel" in the Ryan Lay thread and nobody reacting at all. Straight antisemitism is what follows this type of attitude.
Oh just one more thing: nobody "carved out land" to give to Jews after WWII. Zionism started in the 19th century and Jews started settling in Palestine in 1919. And then, they fought the Brits and Palestinians to create the state. Because yeah Palestine did not exist as such, it was ruled by the Brits. It's a common misconception. Like the Algerian war for instance, since the battle of Algiers was mentioned: France did some fucked up things in Algeria but it wasn't a free country before the French came, it was the Turks that ruled there.
Anyways to you guys who think Palestinians are oppressed (which is true....), think about this: why does noone support the kurds? There's been civil wars in multiple arab countries, they never had their own country and Turkey especially does some horrible shit. Like murdering militant Kurds in the middle of Paris, that was just a few years back. Yet no one ever mentions that cause, like Palestinians are the only oppressed people on earth. And the reason for that IMHO, is just subconscious/very conscious antisemitism. And it's pretty entrenched. To the point where French Jews are leaving France and settling in Israel in record numbers these last few years. Right, fuck this thread, and fuck me for thinking it was possible to actually discuss this.
Frenchie...brother...this thread looks exhausting for you man...to momentarily meander off the path a bit, the bolded comment made me wonder what heads in your country thought/think of the La Haine and specifically the make-up of the three main characters?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYUXYQxsYM8
i think i understand what Mathieu Kassovitz was trying to do by making the trio include a Jewish man and a North-African Muslim, but i've always wondered how it was received in France, and if people form the actual banlieues cared or bought it. i've written a thing or two about it in grad school, so i've always wondered about it's actual reception in France...
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well I slept like shit and I really don't feel like arguing for pages and pages so I posted in the "post you skating" thread instead.
As for this discussion, I'll try to keep it short, at least on my part. Let's just say again it really bothered me to see some guy write "death to Israel" in the Ryan Lay thread and nobody reacting at all. Straight antisemitism is what follows this type of attitude.
Oh just one more thing: nobody "carved out land" to give to Jews after WWII. Zionism started in the 19th century and Jews started settling in Palestine in 1919. And then, they fought the Brits and Palestinians to create the state. Because yeah Palestine did not exist as such, it was ruled by the Brits. It's a common misconception. Like the Algerian war for instance, since the battle of Algiers was mentioned: France did some fucked up things in Algeria but it wasn't a free country before the French came, it was the Turks that ruled there.
Anyways to you guys who think Palestinians are oppressed (which is true....), think about this: why does noone support the kurds? There's been civil wars in multiple arab countries, they never had their own country and Turkey especially does some horrible shit. Like murdering militant Kurds in the middle of Paris, that was just a few years back. Yet no one ever mentions that cause, like Palestinians are the only oppressed people on earth. And the reason for that IMHO, is just subconscious/very conscious antisemitism. And it's pretty entrenched. To the point where French Jews are leaving France and settling in Israel in record numbers these last few years. Right, fuck this thread, and fuck me for thinking it was possible to actually discuss this.
Frenchie...brother...this thread looks exhausting for you man...to momentarily meander off the path a bit, the bolded comment made me wonder what heads in your country thought/think of the La Haine and specifically the make-up of the three main characters?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYUXYQxsYM8
i think i understand what Mathieu Kassovitz was trying to do by making the trio include a Jewish man and a North-African Muslim, but i've always wondered how it was received in France, and if people form the actual banlieues cared or bought it. i've written a thing or two about it in grad school, so i've always wondered about it's actual reception in France...
well it was a different time. 1995.... most people I know (and I grew up in the Paris banlieues) were stoked on seeing themselves (kinda) on the big screen. I remember being so hyped when I came out of the cinema. At that time speaking "verlan" (French ghetto slang) was still pretty unknown outside the Paris region. It was like seeing Kids you know? But I also remember people criticising the movie exactly for that. Saying you'd never see a jewish guy, an Arab and a Black guy being best friends. Which was a valid point, it seemed a bit fake and token. But all this also has to do with the fact hip-hop was very mixed socially when it started in France. You had guys from the projects and guys from super-rich families rapping and writing graffiti together. Vincent Cassel's brother founded one of the first legitimate French rap groups, Assassin. And their father was a famous French actor, Jean-Pierre Cassel.
Today Kassovitz cound NEVER make a movie like that, as he is not from the banlieue himself. And things really have changed in France. I mean a poor Jewish guy like Ilan Halimi was kidnapped, tortured for 3 weeks and finally killed cause some knuckleheads from the projects thought all Jews are rich.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Ilan_Halimi#Gang_of_Barbarians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Ilan_Halimi#Gang_of_Barbarians)
to illustrate this change in the French mentalities, Vincent Cassel and Said Taghmaoui have actually been feuding on social media lately. (2 of the 3 main actors from La Haine).
shit that was a long answer. It actually is a relief to talk about something less loaded.....
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this supposed to be the new La Haine....I haven't seen it yet but I've heard good things.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VwngY8eE8E
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well I slept like shit and I really don't feel like arguing for pages and pages so I posted in the "post you skating" thread instead.
As for this discussion, I'll try to keep it short, at least on my part. Let's just say again it really bothered me to see some guy write "death to Israel" in the Ryan Lay thread and nobody reacting at all. Straight antisemitism is what follows this type of attitude.
Oh just one more thing: nobody "carved out land" to give to Jews after WWII. Zionism started in the 19th century and Jews started settling in Palestine in 1919. And then, they fought the Brits and Palestinians to create the state. Because yeah Palestine did not exist as such, it was ruled by the Brits. It's a common misconception. Like the Algerian war for instance, since the battle of Algiers was mentioned: France did some fucked up things in Algeria but it wasn't a free country before the French came, it was the Turks that ruled there.
Anyways to you guys who think Palestinians are oppressed (which is true....), think about this: why does noone support the kurds? There's been civil wars in multiple arab countries, they never had their own country and Turkey especially does some horrible shit. Like murdering militant Kurds in the middle of Paris, that was just a few years back. Yet no one ever mentions that cause, like Palestinians are the only oppressed people on earth. And the reason for that IMHO, is just subconscious/very conscious antisemitism. And it's pretty entrenched. To the point where French Jews are leaving France and settling in Israel in record numbers these last few years. Right, fuck this thread, and fuck me for thinking it was possible to actually discuss this.
Frenchie...brother...this thread looks exhausting for you man...to momentarily meander off the path a bit, the bolded comment made me wonder what heads in your country thought/think of the La Haine and specifically the make-up of the three main characters?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYUXYQxsYM8
i think i understand what Mathieu Kassovitz was trying to do by making the trio include a Jewish man and a North-African Muslim, but i've always wondered how it was received in France, and if people form the actual banlieues cared or bought it. i've written a thing or two about it in grad school, so i've always wondered about it's actual reception in France...
well it was a different time. 1995.... most people I know (and I grew up in the Paris banlieues) were stoked on seeing themselves (kinda) on the big screen. I remember being so hyped when I came out of the cinema. At that time speaking "verlan" (French ghetto slang) was still pretty unknown outside the Paris region. It was like seeing Kids you know? But I also remember people criticising the movie exactly for that. Saying you'd never see a jewish guy, an Arab and a Black guy being best friends. Which was a valid point, it seemed a bit fake and token. But all this also has to do with the fact hip-hop was very mixed socially when it started in France. You had guys from the projects and guys from super-rich families rapping and writing graffiti together. Vincent Cassel's brother founded one of the first legitimate French rap groups, Assassin. And their father was a famous French actor, Jean-Pierre Cassel.
Today Kassovitz cound NEVER make a movie like that, as he is not from the banlieue himself. And things really have changed in France. I mean a poor Jewish guy like Ilan Halimi was kidnapped, tortured for 3 weeks and finally killed cause some knuckleheads from the projects thought all Jews are rich.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Ilan_Halimi#Gang_of_Barbarians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Ilan_Halimi#Gang_of_Barbarians)
to illustrate this change in the French mentalities, Vincent Cassel and Said Taghmaoui have actually been feuding on social media lately. (2 of the 3 main actors from La Haine).
shit that was a long answer. It actually is a relief to talk about something less loaded.....
nah, i appreciate the insights--La Haine made an impact on us in my part of the states...shit, amongst my graffiti/skater/hip-hop friends and family, and the professors and academics in my life. i've read that it would be impossible to make that movie now
i've lived in Detroit for over 30 years (have family in and round it), and chapters in my dissertation are dealing with the foul realities of Detroit's "rebirth" fiction--and how it leaves out the vast majority of the city's lifelong residents in the peripheral neighborhoods--and the extreme center/periphery paradigm that the Haussmannization of Paris created has been relevant to my work, so the banlieues have inevitably been important as well.
Walter Benjamin's The Arcades Project has been useful in my work at points (not sure if you've tussled with it), and i've even had cause to draw from Baudelaire's Paris Spleen (and there's that great scene towards the end of La Haine in the courtyard with a mural of Baudelaire in the background) when discussing the center/periphery divide in Detroit--Detroit is nearly 139 square miles, and only the 7.2 square miles at the center of the city is where almost all of the money is being spent and attention is being aimed, not unlike Paris.
i also wrote something kind of putting Godard's 2 or 3 Things I Know About Her in conversation with La Haine at one point
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4EiSHGaI14
and i'll look out for that new one you mention...
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This is a topic that nobody wants to touch with a ten foot pole. Nobody wants to be critical of the Jewish state of Israel, in fear of being labelled anti Semitic. You can't speak in absolutes on both sides, neither the Palestinians nor the Israelite are perfect, and it is hard to look at the big picture.
Israel wins all the wars and has gained almost the entire territory because they receive US and western military backing in the form of "aid". When Palestine receives military aid from Arab countries it is viewed internationally as "terrorism"
I feel terrible for the people of Palestine. I feel like Israel has done to the Palestinians as was done to them in the early 20th century. History repeating itself.
I figured Jared would have had this figured out by now.
religion is so fucking stupid and divisive, fuck all religion.
it's way bigger than that. The wars were waged with Egypt, Syria and Jordan, mainly, not Palestine. And those 3 countries received Russian aid. Basically another cold war proxy war.
religion is so fucking stupid and divisive, fuck all religion.
now that I can agree with!
Also to give you guys an idea of what I mean, when I speak about the Kurds....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_murder_of_Kurdish_activists_in_Paris (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_murder_of_Kurdish_activists_in_Paris)
So if the Turkish secret service does not hesitate to execute 3 women in the middle of Paris in 2013, imagine what they do in Turkey. Yet noone ever mentions this civil war. Where's the Oxfam boycott ? where's the protests?
sorry, I understand that it is way bigger than that, I was trying to offer a small example of the problem. I was naive to make any general statement over an area held sacred to the 3 Abrahamic religions
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This is a topic that nobody wants to touch with a ten foot pole. Nobody wants to be critical of the Jewish state of Israel, in fear of being labelled anti Semitic. You can't speak in absolutes on both sides, neither the Palestinians nor the Israelite are perfect, and it is hard to look at the big picture.
Israel wins all the wars and has gained almost the entire territory because they receive US and western military backing in the form of "aid". When Palestine receives military aid from Arab countries it is viewed internationally as "terrorism"
I feel terrible for the people of Palestine. I feel like Israel has done to the Palestinians as was done to them in the early 20th century. History repeating itself.
I figured Jared would have had this figured out by now.
religion is so fucking stupid and divisive, fuck all religion.
Exactly. Why are freedom fighters/resistors considered terrorists? How can they be lumped into the same category as ISIS who specifically try to dominate and conquer. Palestinians only 'fight' to protect their land, rights and liberties.
I’ve been trying to stay out of this, but I feel the following statement is innocuous: they are not universally considered terrorists. I believe you are interpreting this through the filter of western media, but I may be mistaken.
Hamas and Hezbollah are labelled as terrorists when reacting to attacks on their countries freedom. There would be no Hamas if it wasn't for Israel.
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This is a topic that nobody wants to touch with a ten foot pole. Nobody wants to be critical of the Jewish state of Israel, in fear of being labelled anti Semitic. You can't speak in absolutes on both sides, neither the Palestinians nor the Israelite are perfect, and it is hard to look at the big picture.
Israel wins all the wars and has gained almost the entire territory because they receive US and western military backing in the form of "aid". When Palestine receives military aid from Arab countries it is viewed internationally as "terrorism"
I feel terrible for the people of Palestine. I feel like Israel has done to the Palestinians as was done to them in the early 20th century. History repeating itself.
I figured Jared would have had this figured out by now.
religion is so fucking stupid and divisive, fuck all religion.
Exactly. Why are freedom fighters/resistors considered terrorists? How can they be lumped into the same category as ISIS who specifically try to dominate and conquer. Palestinians only 'fight' to protect their land, rights and liberties.
I’ve been trying to stay out of this, but I feel the following statement is innocuous: they are not universally considered terrorists. I believe you are interpreting this through the filter of western media, but I may be mistaken.
Hamas and Hezbollah are labelled as terrorists when reacting to attacks on their countries freedom. There would be no Hamas if it wasn't for Israel.
in general, “terrorism” is simply what wealthy and powerful countries with armies, air forces, and navies label the tactics of poorer, weaker countries who lack these kinds of resources when at war with them at whatever scale--both ways of fighting wars inevitably involve the killing of “innocent civilians,” and this is always considered acceptable...
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This is a topic that nobody wants to touch with a ten foot pole. Nobody wants to be critical of the Jewish state of Israel, in fear of being labelled anti Semitic. You can't speak in absolutes on both sides, neither the Palestinians nor the Israelite are perfect, and it is hard to look at the big picture.
Israel wins all the wars and has gained almost the entire territory because they receive US and western military backing in the form of "aid". When Palestine receives military aid from Arab countries it is viewed internationally as "terrorism"
I feel terrible for the people of Palestine. I feel like Israel has done to the Palestinians as was done to them in the early 20th century. History repeating itself.
I figured Jared would have had this figured out by now.
religion is so fucking stupid and divisive, fuck all religion.
Exactly. Why are freedom fighters/resistors considered terrorists? How can they be lumped into the same category as ISIS who specifically try to dominate and conquer. Palestinians only 'fight' to protect their land, rights and liberties.
I’ve been trying to stay out of this, but I feel the following statement is innocuous: they are not universally considered terrorists. I believe you are interpreting this through the filter of western media, but I may be mistaken.
Hamas and Hezbollah are labelled as terrorists when reacting to attacks on their countries freedom. There would be no Hamas if it wasn't for Israel.
I think we are having a misunderstanding.
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well I slept like shit and I really don't feel like arguing for pages and pages so I posted in the "post you skating" thread instead.
As for this discussion, I'll try to keep it short, at least on my part. Let's just say again it really bothered me to see some guy write "death to Israel" in the Ryan Lay thread and nobody reacting at all. Straight antisemitism is what follows this type of attitude.
Oh just one more thing: nobody "carved out land" to give to Jews after WWII. Zionism started in the 19th century and Jews started settling in Palestine in 1919. And then, they fought the Brits and Palestinians to create the state. Because yeah Palestine did not exist as such, it was ruled by the Brits. It's a common misconception. Like the Algerian war for instance, since the battle of Algiers was mentioned: France did some fucked up things in Algeria but it wasn't a free country before the French came, it was the Turks that ruled there.
Anyways to you guys who think Palestinians are oppressed (which is true....), think about this: why does noone support the kurds? There's been civil wars in multiple arab countries, they never had their own country and Turkey especially does some horrible shit. Like murdering militant Kurds in the middle of Paris, that was just a few years back. Yet no one ever mentions that cause, like Palestinians are the only oppressed people on earth. And the reason for that IMHO, is just subconscious/very conscious antisemitism. And it's pretty entrenched. To the point where French Jews are leaving France and settling in Israel in record numbers these last few years. Right, fuck this thread, and fuck me for thinking it was possible to actually discuss this.
Frenchie...brother...this thread looks exhausting for you man...to momentarily meander off the path a bit, the bolded comment made me wonder what heads in your country thought/think of the La Haine and specifically the make-up of the three main characters?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYUXYQxsYM8
i think i understand what Mathieu Kassovitz was trying to do by making the trio include a Jewish man and a North-African Muslim, but i've always wondered how it was received in France, and if people form the actual banlieues cared or bought it. i've written a thing or two about it in grad school, so i've always wondered about it's actual reception in France...
well it was a different time. 1995.... most people I know (and I grew up in the Paris banlieues) were stoked on seeing themselves (kinda) on the big screen. I remember being so hyped when I came out of the cinema. At that time speaking "verlan" (French ghetto slang) was still pretty unknown outside the Paris region. It was like seeing Kids you know? But I also remember people criticising the movie exactly for that. Saying you'd never see a jewish guy, an Arab and a Black guy being best friends. Which was a valid point, it seemed a bit fake and token. But all this also has to do with the fact hip-hop was very mixed socially when it started in France. You had guys from the projects and guys from super-rich families rapping and writing graffiti together. Vincent Cassel's brother founded one of the first legitimate French rap groups, Assassin. And their father was a famous French actor, Jean-Pierre Cassel.
Today Kassovitz cound NEVER make a movie like that, as he is not from the banlieue himself. And things really have changed in France. I mean a poor Jewish guy like Ilan Halimi was kidnapped, tortured for 3 weeks and finally killed cause some knuckleheads from the projects thought all Jews are rich.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Ilan_Halimi#Gang_of_Barbarians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Ilan_Halimi#Gang_of_Barbarians)
to illustrate this change in the French mentalities, Vincent Cassel and Said Taghmaoui have actually been feuding on social media lately. (2 of the 3 main actors from La Haine).
shit that was a long answer. It actually is a relief to talk about something less loaded.....
nah, i appreciate the insights--La Haine made an impact on us in my part of the states...shit, amongst my graffiti/skater/hip-hop friends and family, and the professors and academics in my life. i've read that it would be impossible to make that movie now
i've lived in Detroit for over 30 years (have family in and round it), and chapters in my dissertation are dealing with the foul realities of Detroit's "rebirth" fiction--and how it leaves out the vast majority of the city's lifelong residents in the peripheral neighborhoods--and the extreme center/periphery paradigm that the Haussmannization of Paris created has been relevant to my work, so the banlieues have inevitably been important as well.
Walter Benjamin's The Arcades Project has been useful in my work at points (not sure if you've tussled with it), and i've even had cause to draw from Baudelaire's Paris Spleen (and there's that great scene towards the end of La Haine in the courtyard with a mural of Baudelaire in the background) when discussing the center/periphery divide in Detroit--Detroit is nearly 139 square miles, and only the 7.2 square miles at the center of the city is where almost all of the money is being spent and attention is being aimed, not unlike Paris.
i also wrote something kind of putting Godard's 2 or 3 Things I Know About Her in conversation with La Haine at one point
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4EiSHGaI14
and i'll look out for that new one you mention...
damn you really are an academic! I've never seen that Godard movie and I had never heard of Walter Benjamin. (confession time : Godard usually bores me...good to learn about new stuff on Slap though!)
Now I have to say I'm surprised La Haine had such an impact in the US or abroad generally. The crazy thing IMO is that places like Detroit are in a way worse situation than the Paris banlieue! I mean, I've never been to Detroit but I'm pretty sure the crime rate is multiple times that of the Paris region. I've spent a few months in California in the 90's and it was pretty eye-opening for a French guy. The projects can be shitty around Paris but we don't have guns everywhere and crips and bloods-type gangs. Plus the welfare state in France is still really strong, nothing like the US. If you are an adult and you don't have a job, you get a minimum of 500 euros each month from the state. For life! American ghettoes are fucked in comparison basically.
Just to give you a lighter perspective, check this movie out if you can, "Les Lascars". You could say it's like an anime comedy version of La Haine, with Vincent Cassel again playing the main character. Funny as fuck.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaHzFrdTq0o
Right....now like I said, I think I need to log off Slap for a week or something....This shit happens to me periodically...I wanna argue about something, cause I need to express an opinion but then the actual arguing just brings me down. So see you guys later. :-X
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This is a topic that nobody wants to touch with a ten foot pole. Nobody wants to be critical of the Jewish state of Israel, in fear of being labelled anti Semitic. You can't speak in absolutes on both sides, neither the Palestinians nor the Israelite are perfect, and it is hard to look at the big picture.
Israel wins all the wars and has gained almost the entire territory because they receive US and western military backing in the form of "aid". When Palestine receives military aid from Arab countries it is viewed internationally as "terrorism"
I feel terrible for the people of Palestine. I feel like Israel has done to the Palestinians as was done to them in the early 20th century. History repeating itself.
I figured Jared would have had this figured out by now.
religion is so fucking stupid and divisive, fuck all religion.
Exactly. Why are freedom fighters/resistors considered terrorists? How can they be lumped into the same category as ISIS who specifically try to dominate and conquer. Palestinians only 'fight' to protect their land, rights and liberties.
I’ve been trying to stay out of this, but I feel the following statement is innocuous: they are not universally considered terrorists. I believe you are interpreting this through the filter of western media, but I may be mistaken.
Hamas and Hezbollah are labelled as terrorists when reacting to attacks on their countries freedom. There would be no Hamas if it wasn't for Israel.
I'm not sure it's that simple. No matter what you think of Israel and independent of whether both of them should be labelled terrorists, both Hamas and Hezbollah are quite problematic and not exactly what I understand as "freedom fighters".
Hezbollah has been fighting along Assad's army in the Syrian Civil War and is responsible for the killing of thousands of Syrians. Hezbollah is a proxy of Iran not just in the conflict with Israel but also in the conflict between Shia and Sunni Islam. Hezbollah was involved in the killing of former Lebanese PM Rafic Hariri. Hezbollah is responsible for the killing of numerous civilians and diplomats.
Hamas originated as the Palestinian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood. Article 7 of their charter supports the murder of any Jew (not Israelis specifically, Jews in general). Hamas has been responsible for the murder of hundreds of Israeli civilians (not just soldiers).
It is true that not all countries condemn Hezbollah and Hamas. Among these states are China, Russia, and Turkey: authoritarian dictatorships with strong anti-Western views.
I think Israel's treatment of the Palestinian population in Gaza and the West Bank is cruel and inhumane. However, in my eyes that does not mean that Hamas and Hezbollah are the good guys just because they fight Israel. I think both organisations are part of the problem, not part of the solution.
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you're french which means you're just a USA ass-licker. there is no such thing as french political sovereignty, France is a US vassal and roughly 90% of your mainstream media is controlled by Washington DC. so of course you'll be pro Israel. your NATO military will also be the first to go bomb a sovereign middle eastern country under US orders since, as you said they don't have democracy. Your western empire will not stop overthrowing every country whose resources and strategic positions aren't exploited by the US until they are all as democratic as your friends in Saudi Arabia.
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^that’s more along the lines of what I was expecting in here.
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This is a topic that nobody wants to touch with a ten foot pole. Nobody wants to be critical of the Jewish state of Israel, in fear of being labelled anti Semitic. You can't speak in absolutes on both sides, neither the Palestinians nor the Israelite are perfect, and it is hard to look at the big picture.
Israel wins all the wars and has gained almost the entire territory because they receive US and western military backing in the form of "aid". When Palestine receives military aid from Arab countries it is viewed internationally as "terrorism"
I feel terrible for the people of Palestine. I feel like Israel has done to the Palestinians as was done to them in the early 20th century. History repeating itself.
I figured Jared would have had this figured out by now.
religion is so fucking stupid and divisive, fuck all religion.
Exactly. Why are freedom fighters/resistors considered terrorists? How can they be lumped into the same category as ISIS who specifically try to dominate and conquer. Palestinians only 'fight' to protect their land, rights and liberties.
I’ve been trying to stay out of this, but I feel the following statement is innocuous: they are not universally considered terrorists. I believe you are interpreting this through the filter of western media, but I may be mistaken.
Hamas and Hezbollah are labelled as terrorists when reacting to attacks on their countries freedom. There would be no Hamas if it wasn't for Israel.
in general, “terrorism” is simply what wealthy and powerful countries with armies, air forces, and navies label the tactics of poorer, weaker countries who lack these kinds of resources when at war with them at whatever scale--both ways of fighting wars inevitably involve the killing of “innocent civilians,” and this is always considered acceptable...
U.S. Code Title 22 Chapter 38, Section 2656f(d) defines terrorism as:
"Premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents, usually intended to influence an audience".
Basically anyone who is in resistance of western colonial policy with a gun a point of view and no official uniform post 1975
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This is a topic that nobody wants to touch with a ten foot pole. Nobody wants to be critical of the Jewish state of Israel, in fear of being labelled anti Semitic. You can't speak in absolutes on both sides, neither the Palestinians nor the Israelite are perfect, and it is hard to look at the big picture.
Israel wins all the wars and has gained almost the entire territory because they receive US and western military backing in the form of "aid". When Palestine receives military aid from Arab countries it is viewed internationally as "terrorism"
I feel terrible for the people of Palestine. I feel like Israel has done to the Palestinians as was done to them in the early 20th century. History repeating itself.
I figured Jared would have had this figured out by now.
religion is so fucking stupid and divisive, fuck all religion.
Exactly. Why are freedom fighters/resistors considered terrorists? How can they be lumped into the same category as ISIS who specifically try to dominate and conquer. Palestinians only 'fight' to protect their land, rights and liberties.
I’ve been trying to stay out of this, but I feel the following statement is innocuous: they are not universally considered terrorists. I believe you are interpreting this through the filter of western media, but I may be mistaken.
Hamas and Hezbollah are labelled as terrorists when reacting to attacks on their countries freedom. There would be no Hamas if it wasn't for Israel.
in general, “terrorism” is simply what wealthy and powerful countries with armies, air forces, and navies label the tactics of poorer, weaker countries who lack these kinds of resources when at war with them at whatever scale--both ways of fighting wars inevitably involve the killing of “innocent civilians,” and this is always considered acceptable...
U.S. Code Title 22 Chapter 38, Section 2656f(d) defines terrorism as:
"Premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents, usually intended to influence an audience".
Basically anyone who is in resistance of western colonial policy with a gun a point of view and no official uniform post 1975
You got what I was putting down. These labels are dependent upon one’s cultural point of reference.
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I think we can all agree that targeting civilians is terrorism, regardless of perpetrator's motives.
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I think we can all agree that targeting civilians is terrorism, regardless of perpetrator's motives.
...and/or resources.
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This is a topic that nobody wants to touch with a ten foot pole. Nobody wants to be critical of the Jewish state of Israel, in fear of being labelled anti Semitic. You can't speak in absolutes on both sides, neither the Palestinians nor the Israelite are perfect, and it is hard to look at the big picture.
Israel wins all the wars and has gained almost the entire territory because they receive US and western military backing in the form of "aid". When Palestine receives military aid from Arab countries it is viewed internationally as "terrorism"
I feel terrible for the people of Palestine. I feel like Israel has done to the Palestinians as was done to them in the early 20th century. History repeating itself.
I figured Jared would have had this figured out by now.
religion is so fucking stupid and divisive, fuck all religion.
Exactly. Why are freedom fighters/resistors considered terrorists? How can they be lumped into the same category as ISIS who specifically try to dominate and conquer. Palestinians only 'fight' to protect their land, rights and liberties.
I’ve been trying to stay out of this, but I feel the following statement is innocuous: they are not universally considered terrorists. I believe you are interpreting this through the filter of western media, but I may be mistaken.
Hamas and Hezbollah are labelled as terrorists when reacting to attacks on their countries freedom. There would be no Hamas if it wasn't for Israel.
in general, “terrorism” is simply what wealthy and powerful countries with armies, air forces, and navies label the tactics of poorer, weaker countries who lack these kinds of resources when at war with them at whatever scale--both ways of fighting wars inevitably involve the killing of “innocent civilians,” and this is always considered acceptable...
U.S. Code Title 22 Chapter 38, Section 2656f(d) defines terrorism as:
"Premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents, usually intended to influence an audience".
Basically anyone who is in resistance of western colonial policy with a gun a point of view and no official uniform post 1975
You got what I was putting down. These labels are dependent upon one’s cultural point of reference.
right on right on
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Ethno-nationalism is a bad idea, regardless of who controls the state. A jewish state shouldn't exist anymore than a christian or islamic state. Any political entity that prioritizes one religion over another is bound to oppress.
Beyond that, Israel supports illegal settlement and the oppression of one race over another due to religious favoritism. It's not a good idea. It's not working out for the majority. At one time they may not have been the aggressor, but they certainly are now. Bulldozing over peaceful protestors, shooting kids and medics, the list goes on. Any justification for this is sheer entitlement and ego that's putting one religious group over another.
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I think we can all agree that targeting civilians is terrorism, regardless of perpetrator's motives.
...and/or resources.
But the point is that Hamas wouldn't be targeting any civilians (as they would have no reason to) if Israel wasn't trying to wipe out Palestinians- which is what they are doing.
If you watch the link I provided Miko Peled tells how his sisters child was killed in an attack by Hamas in Jerusalem. The Israeli media ate it up as they expected him with his high status to condemn Palestinians but instead he stood with Palestinians and condemned Israel- as he recognises that this attack would not have happened without Israeli apartheid over Palestine.
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you're french which means you're just a USA ass-licker. there is no such thing as french political sovereignty, France is a US vassal and roughly 90% of your mainstream media is controlled by Washington DC. so of course you'll be pro Israel. your NATO military will also be the first to go bomb a sovereign middle eastern country under US orders since, as you said they don't have democracy. Your western empire will not stop overthrowing every country whose resources and strategic positions aren't exploited by the US until they are all as democratic as your friends in Saudi Arabia.
must've missed a dose on your meds there, man.
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this would be a pretty sick graphic, ryan lay, if you're reading
(https://i.imgur.com/JyaQ6JE.jpg)
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We should not be giving Israel billions in aid every year that is utilized to lobby in congress (which is illegal) to further their aid. Which is then used to expand their religious government that prevents non-Jews from becoming proper citizens, and exploits non-Jewish workers who are forced to work for Israel as they scrutinize countries who trade with Palestine. I have nothing against a Jewish state, however if you are going to create one don't feel entitled to land because your religion says your people were entitled to this land. Hamas is terrible, and by no means a better evil, however the PLO has made reasonable efforts towards peace, although the right-wing Israeli parties choose not to make peace. The people of Israel are for the most part great people, although the government that hosts unfair elections (which are being protested) is inexcusably disgusting. Israeli actually had their own terrorist groups under Britain known as the Irgun and Lehi which massacred thousands of Palestinian children, and some British diplomants in order to achieve their "state". And guess what they were later integrated into the Israeli military (IDF) Sounds a lot like Hamas (which again is terrible just pointing out how people believe Palestine is terrible because their is a oppressive terrorist group which supposedly is fighting for Palestinian interests but takes Israeli funding to destabilize the Palestinian liberation movement via radicalization).
Fuck Hamas
Fuck the Israeli Government
Shout out to the liberal Israelis, and Palestinians who aren't a part of Hamas.
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its a sad story of two nations that are steered by people who want power. most israelis and Palestinians will get along and israel has a big population of "israeli arabs" that are an integral part of society, most of my co-workers are arab. alot of palestinians used to work in Israel and with israelis before the whole region became more extreme. the people are not the problem. the problem is with assholes that gain from the situation and have an interest keeping it like that.
the military is a multi billion dollar industry for both sides, politicians that use fear instead of giving hope in order to gain power and use religion and territory as an excuse to have more control all gain from this.
as for israel right to exist? As a jew living here i might be biased, but with the history of the jewish people its hard to argue that they dont deserve a place. and the territory israel is sitting on right now has a long history with its people. even now there is alot of anti semitism in the world and being jewish might not be too safe for you.
I know alot of people that came to Israel after being harrased or attacked in europe for being jewish. alot. my girlfriend came to israel a few years ago exactly for this reason. when she was in school in eastern europe someone punched her in the face and broke her nose for 'having a big jewish nose'.
so i truly think that jews deserve a place and israel is the only reasonable place for it.
FYI, it was discussed that israel would be set up in Uganda and all the jews would be sent there, but that plan never got far.
Israel is now sitting on a land that used be be under a british mandate called Palestine, it wasnt an arab land. before that it was under the turkish empire. arabs lived here. jews too. i live in a Bauhaus inspired building that was built in 1934 by jews (and for some reason its not on the map posted on the first page) . a few buildings from me theres an arab building with labanese influences. jews and arabs can live together, it happend before and itss happening now and it can happen with palestinians too if both sides actually tried. this region has been destabilized way before israel was even a concept because of its unique location. connecting europe, africa and asia and had access to the ocean and alot of land trade paths.
but i cannot defend what Israel is doing in the west bank. at all. and i can say that after serving there for more than a year in total in different areas as a combat medic.
an army can not and should not have control on civilians. even with the best of intentions the army is not equipped to deal with civilians. even the psychological aspect of it is dangerous. a palestinian kid that sees a soldier in full combat kit and weapons in his front yard is going to remember it and probably not in a positive light. and thats not even talking about being in his living room slapping his dad.
the IDF is a humane army (if a thing like that exists) in combat situations. ive seen the army act in war time and saw remarkable steps to not harm civilians, which is hard when youre fighting in a populated army with the tools an army has, but again, an army should not have any interaction with civilians. at all. especially when that army is made of 18-21 yo kids, that might not be smart or too equipped to handle the responsibility and power they have in their hands. and even if youre being as respectful as you can while being there, you cant really have an opened dialogue when youre carrying a gun and combat gear.
and "settlers" are the worst. the jews that take up palestinian land with the help of the government to strategically take up more land from palestinians so every future agreement will be even harder. they have the full protection of soldiers that dont like them and dont want to be there because our government is shit.
what israel is doing in the west bank right now is horrible and can no longer be excused. from a temporary solution to stop the ongoing terrorism israel went through for years to an ongoing policy of keeping it unresolved.
people just want to live and hamas and the israeli gov is keeping us in this horrible situation instead of trying to put an end to it.
we are very very far from an agreement, both sides are really divided among themselves, there is too much real fear of war and terror in people minds because of the hard history we share, and too many shitty people have too much to gain from this ongoing mass and it will take generations of education and being exposed to each other again for it to work.
sorry for the wall of text
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sorry for the wall of text
I read it all. Thanks for your insightful contribution to the thread.
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thank you, that was a good read.
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sorry for the wall of text
I read it all. Thanks for your insightful contribution to the thread.
yes. Thank you for a balanced account of what it is to actually live there. Hopefully some people who tend to reason in absolutes will learn something from it.
Just as an aside, Stalin actually set up a Jewish state of sorts in the USSR: Birobidjan. But he set it up in some super isolated region close to China with shitty infrastructure and the whole thing was pretty much abandoned after the fall of the USSR.
Now just to give you guys an idea of what I mean, when I say the conflict is imported into France and give you an idea of where I'm coming from: this was a number one hit song in France in 91. Didi, by Khaled.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTcnIYYeZI8
even famous punk bands like La Mano Negra had songs in Arabic...(sung by Jewish guys btw).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdOx5Zbl41A
So you could say arabs are to France what latinos are to the US, in terms of numbers and cultural influence. Maybe even more so. Can you imagine a number 1 hit song sung in arabic in the US? Guess not. I've always had guys of maghrebi origin as classmates at school and France still has very close ties to the Maghreb (Algeria, Tunisia, Morocco). And I actually got spoken to in arabic quite often in the street cause I'm a tanned guy. So all this to say, it's just heartbraking to see how relations have deteriorated between communities that used to get along fine. The tipping point was around 2000, I'd say. And like Eranka said, European Jews are increasingly leaving Europe to settle in Israel, doin the "aliyah", for fear of harassment and violence. As I said before, this is a subject I had multiple real-life arguments over and I broke ties with several friends because of it. It's like there are trench lines in French society, it is a huge deal how you position yourself about that subject, especially for artists and public figures.
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that first-hand account was tops. thank you for sharing with us eranka.
I was under the impression that the USSR was also anti-semitic, based on Marx's "On the Jewish Question" and the "incompatibility" of the "jewish chosen people" and communism? it's been years since i read that so please correct me if that's wrong.
To follow OBF's tangent, Despacito was a #1 hit in Spanish (fuck the J.Bible version tho) from Puerto Rico, whose sovereignty and US membership is a topic for a whole new discussion. So maybe that is a similar sitch?
I don't know the relationship between Maghreb arabs and Palestinians, you've mentioned ending relationships bc of this issue, what were those discussions like? what were their goals? did u manage to have a discussion like this one? I am definitely not trying to diminish the struggles of different peoples, but could this enmity in France come from differences in opportunity? Israelis struggling have the opportunity to move to Israel (which they might or might not consider "home"), but Palestinians are trying to find safety and opportunities all over the world (again, whether it's "home" or not). Chile has the largest population of Palestinians outside of the Middle East (six digits). We even have a professional futbol team called Palestino. I didn't grow up in the capital, so I only have a faint idea of the dynamics there. A random instance I remember was waiting at a traffic light when a homeless man biking around with a "Free Palestine" flag crossed the street, and the dude in the driver's seat of the car next to me got out just to yell insults at him.
I guess what I'm getting at is: where do Palestinians find respite? Could a stance supporting Israel be taken as support for the Israeli government, at least in France? The conflict being "imported" into France could also be related to previous posts' reference to the West's peoples realizing that their nations were the ones fucking up everything abroad, and stances changing based on that?
Finally, what's your take on Palestine's right to exist?
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its a sad story of two nations that are steered by people who want power. most israelis and Palestinians will get along and israel has a big population of "israeli arabs" that are an integral part of society, most of my co-workers are arab. alot of palestinians used to work in Israel and with israelis before the whole region became more extreme. the people are not the problem. the problem is with assholes that gain from the situation and have an interest keeping it like that.
the military is a multi billion dollar industry for both sides, politicians that use fear instead of giving hope in order to gain power and use religion and territory as an excuse to have more control all gain from this.
as for israel right to exist? As a jew living here i might be biased, but with the history of the jewish people its hard to argue that they dont deserve a place. and the territory israel is sitting on right now has a long history with its people. even now there is alot of anti semitism in the world and being jewish might not be too safe for you.
I know alot of people that came to Israel after being harrased or attacked in europe for being jewish. alot. my girlfriend came to israel a few years ago exactly for this reason. when she was in school in eastern europe someone punched her in the face and broke her nose for 'having a big jewish nose'.
so i truly think that jews deserve a place and israel is the only reasonable place for it.
FYI, it was discussed that israel would be set up in Uganda and all the jews would be sent there, but that plan never got far.
Israel is now sitting on a land that used be be under a british mandate called Palestine, it wasnt an arab land. before that it was under the turkish empire. arabs lived here. jews too. i live in a Bauhaus inspired building that was built in 1934 by jews (and for some reason its not on the map posted on the first page) . a few buildings from me theres an arab building with labanese influences. jews and arabs can live together, it happend before and itss happening now and it can happen with palestinians too if both sides actually tried. this region has been destabilized way before israel was even a concept because of its unique location. connecting europe, africa and asia and had access to the ocean and alot of land trade paths.
but i cannot defend what Israel is doing in the west bank. at all. and i can say that after serving there for more than a year in total in different areas as a combat medic.
an army can not and should not have control on civilians. even with the best of intentions the army is not equipped to deal with civilians. even the psychological aspect of it is dangerous. a palestinian kid that sees a soldier in full combat kit and weapons in his front yard is going to remember it and probably not in a positive light. and thats not even talking about being in his living room slapping his dad.
the IDF is a humane army (if a thing like that exists) in combat situations. ive seen the army act in war time and saw remarkable steps to not harm civilians, which is hard when youre fighting in a populated army with the tools an army has, but again, an army should not have any interaction with civilians. at all. especially when that army is made of 18-21 yo kids, that might not be smart or too equipped to handle the responsibility and power they have in their hands. and even if youre being as respectful as you can while being there, you cant really have an opened dialogue when youre carrying a gun and combat gear.
and "settlers" are the worst. the jews that take up palestinian land with the help of the government to strategically take up more land from palestinians so every future agreement will be even harder. they have the full protection of soldiers that dont like them and dont want to be there because our government is shit.
what israel is doing in the west bank right now is horrible and can no longer be excused. from a temporary solution to stop the ongoing terrorism israel went through for years to an ongoing policy of keeping it unresolved.
people just want to live and hamas and the israeli gov is keeping us in this horrible situation instead of trying to put an end to it.
we are very very far from an agreement, both sides are really divided among themselves, there is too much real fear of war and terror in people minds because of the hard history we share, and too many shitty people have too much to gain from this ongoing mass and it will take generations of education and being exposed to each other again for it to work.
sorry for the wall of text
Wow, what a great account of the situation in the area!
Do you think there will be a change in Israel's politics in the near future? Especially since Israel just elected a new PM.
Do you think it's possible that Israel ever withdraws from the settlements in the West Bank (like they did in Gaza)? Or has the government invested too much into the settlements and all the infrastructure around it?
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Israel did have elections a few months ago and Natanyahu 'won' again with an emergency government under the threat of the virus. hes a professional at taking advantage of threats and probably the best politician israel ever had. we had 3 elections in about a year and in all election he didnt win but successfully blocked a new government to form and led us to re-elections.
he has a bunch of corruption charges floating over his head and surrounded by corrupt people.
i doubt anything changes anytime soon, israel is really divided among itself, the right wing will never vote for a left wing leader, the left wing is super divided and have no real leader, and even in the left wing some politicians wont sit in a coalition with an arab party, basically blocking any chance to form a government that actually want to change stuff. and the security threat still makes people blind to how bad things really are under the government we had in the last decade or so. sometimes it feels that people vote for parties like it was their favorite football club and its for life, they will keep voting for the same guy even when they know hes bad.
financially israel is a mess, wages are bad and everything is super expensive, especially rent. the second we dont have the life threat over our head we will start demanding shit from our government and ask questions for how they spend our tax money.with all the money we spend on religion and demands from the religious parties that have alot of political power because their public is unified and the money we spend on the army israel could have been an amazing place. but even if israel did a complete 180 and started trying, this whole area is infected with foreign interests. from the USA to Russia and even Iran, everyone has a piece in this conflict.
i dont have much hope for the direction israel is taking right now, alot of the world is having a rise of nationalism and stupidity right now and israel is no different. it will probably be worse before it becomes better.
right now so many people live in settlements and in areas that might be given back in the future that its going to be a big problem politically and logistically. Gaza area had about 10,000 settlers while in the west bank there are about 400,000. israel is tiny and only has about 8 million citizens, its not going to be easy. they built a few big cities that are going to be a big problem if the Palestinians wont give up that land. The government pretty much solidified israels presence in the area over a long period of right wing leadership. the scumbag that was the minister of education even built a university there. it is possible to withdraw from alot of small settlements, but a complete withdraw seems unlikely, especially with the atmosphere we have right now. even mellow people are worried that we will have buses and restaurants blowing up weekly again if we withdraw.
the best solution i can see is a complete seperation and having two states in agreed territories and that will require hard compromises from both sides. living next to a hostile nation is easier than occupying it, easier to deal with in a diplomatic manner and easier to get the worlds support if you attack it with a good reason and there is always the chance that it wont be a hostile nation and we will both gain from it. the best peace is achieved with common interests, and financially it could be amazing for both sides, and thats not talking about the increase in the quality of life and general safety.
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I was under the impression that the USSR was also anti-semitic, based on Marx's "On the Jewish Question" and the "incompatibility" of the "jewish chosen people" and communism? it's been years since i read that so please correct me if that's wrong.
In my part of Russia, Jews were no-go. My county was/is pretty stupid.
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that first-hand account was tops. thank you for sharing with us eranka.
I was under the impression that the USSR was also anti-semitic, based on Marx's "On the Jewish Question" and the "incompatibility" of the "jewish chosen people" and communism? it's been years since i read that so please correct me if that's wrong.
To follow OBF's tangent, Despacito was a #1 hit in Spanish (fuck the J.Bible version tho) from Puerto Rico, whose sovereignty and US membership is a topic for a whole new discussion. So maybe that is a similar sitch?
I don't know the relationship between Maghreb arabs and Palestinians, you've mentioned ending relationships bc of this issue, what were those discussions like? what were their goals? did u manage to have a discussion like this one? I am definitely not trying to diminish the struggles of different peoples, but could this enmity in France come from differences in opportunity? Israelis struggling have the opportunity to move to Israel (which they might or might not consider "home"), but Palestinians are trying to find safety and opportunities all over the world (again, whether it's "home" or not). Chile has the largest population of Palestinians outside of the Middle East (six digits). We even have a professional futbol team called Palestino. I didn't grow up in the capital, so I only have a faint idea of the dynamics there. A random instance I remember was waiting at a traffic light when a homeless man biking around with a "Free Palestine" flag crossed the street, and the dude in the driver's seat of the car next to me got out just to yell insults at him.
I guess what I'm getting at is: where do Palestinians find respite? Could a stance supporting Israel be taken as support for the Israeli government, at least in France? The conflict being "imported" into France could also be related to previous posts' reference to the West's peoples realizing that their nations were the ones fucking up everything abroad, and stances changing based on that?
Finally, what's your take on Palestine's right to exist?
well ....usually no real discussion over the subject, it just gets too heated to speak rationnally. And most of the time, my argument was with white French guys that supported the Palestinian cause so blindly if fell into antisemitism. For instance, like I said, one of my childhood friends started saying he wanted to burn synagogues (that guy is not too stable but still, I was really shocked when he said that). The latest exemple was the drummer in one of the bands I play in: he's Belgian-Moroccan and started saying one night "well Jews have exagerated the Holocaust and they used it to found Israel and oppress Arabs". I cowardly just changed subject cause it's hard enough to get along musically without bringing politics into it. The problem is that these conversations start about Israel but quite often it gets into "the Jews".
A main fault line in France is how you view Dieudonné: French comedian, half-white half-black, who started his career with a Jewish partner. After splitting from that partner, he later started spewing a lot of anti-jewish rethoric (not anti-Israel, mind: anti-jewish) and going into politics. He actually became friends with the Le Pen family: founders of the Front National/Rassemblement National, the French extreme right. Yeah, I know, it makes no sense. Anyways Dieudonné has a lot of support in the french "banlieue". And I stopped talking to quite a few friends that support him and post his shit constantly on social media. To give you an idea, Dieudonné accuses Jews of being responsible for the slave trade and is constantly pitting people against one another.
could this enmity in France come from differences in opportunity?
Yes. Arabs suffer from racism in France, probably more than anyone. But Israel has got nothing to do with it....The conflict being imported into France of course has to do with France's colonial past, so everything gets mixed up, it's a complicated situation. It just irks me so much when people act like "the west" is the only imperial power. The debate gets way oversimplified. For instance, the berbers are the original inhabitants of the maghreb, from before the arab conquest. It's a big population of about 30 millions in Algeria and Morocco and lot of them still feel like they are being colonized by Arabs and don't have the same rights. It took them 50 years of struggle after independance to see their langage (tamazigh) recognized officially by the state.
Finally and as I said before, I do not support everything Israel does, I just think there should be room for a Jewish state. And like Eranka, I think a 2-state solution is the best hope. btw Eranka, thanks again for your explanation of the situation. Especially the political climate in Israel. The sad thing is, it sounds similar to France or even the US and UK: social media has made people more polarized and extreme. Everybody follows their own media, each with its own bias and accuses the others of fake news....The French left is pretty much in the same state as the israeli left apparently: the different parties refuse to form a coalition amongst themselves and so remain in the minority.
PS: really hope to visit Chile one day! My bio father was from Chile.
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This must be the most level headed and informative conversation/thread in the history of slap.
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This must be the most level headed and informative conversation/thread in the history of slap.
Don't jinx it, dude. Calm right now but can explode at any time. Kind of like the street life in Jerusalem.
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Is anyone else reading posts with NPR voices?
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that first-hand account was tops. thank you for sharing with us eranka.
I was under the impression that the USSR was also anti-semitic, based on Marx's "On the Jewish Question" and the "incompatibility" of the "jewish chosen people" and communism? it's been years since i read that so please correct me if that's wrong.
I'd argue this is a misreading of Marx's essays within "On the Jewish Question," which were a response to the anti-Semitic Bauer who wrote, "The Jewish Question" in which he (Bauer) proposed that the Jews can only be emancipated when they surrender their Judaism. Marx on the other hand said Jews simply, like all human beings, had the right to equal civil/political rights, and any nation that had not emancipated the Jews = underdeveloped.
The language, especially in the second essay can easily be interpreted as anti-Semitic, but, I'd argue it is more of a fuck you to Bauer than anyone else.
Not to mention, in relation to the topic at hand (despite this writing occurring before Israel was a state), on "April 15, 1854, Marx wrote an article about Ottoman- ruled Jerusalem in which he commented, 'Nothing equals the misery and the sufferings of the Jews at Jerusalem'"
(see https://thecharnelhouse.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Marcel-Stoetzler-ed.-Antisemitism-and-the-Constitution-of-Sociology-2014.pdf#page=148)
As for anti-Semitism in communism, I will always think of Ryan Gosling in The Believer when I hear criticisms of Jews. "Do we hate them because they're capitalist or because they're communist?"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnSZcj1Km-M
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This must be the most level headed and informative conversation/thread in the history of slap.
glad you feel that way man! Makes me regret starting the thread a lot less, for real
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Yeah, you guys have increased my faith in humanity with this respectful discussion on a difficult topic.
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2 : Israel is the only democracy in the region. There is not one arab country with democracy, unfortunately.
I'm not sure what point you're making here? Should new states only be allowed to form if they are a democracy? Does Israel's ability to form a democracy give it a greater right to exist/a more superior position in comparison to Arab countries and potential new Arab states? Just trying to guess what you mean by this point.
The reason for a lack of democracies in the Arab world is wildly complicated. For one, Western-style democracy is not a one size fits all solution that will work for every country. Also, Western powers love to point their finger at the Middle East (and other areas of the world) and criticize them for their instability, corruption, and lack of democracy, painting them as inferior nations and their people as uncivilized. This is also the message that is fed to the people in these western nations. However it is decades of continued intervention from these same western powers to purposefully destabilize the region that has made it impossible to institute a democracy in most of these countries.
The US especially is guilty of this and has directly helped several authoritarian regimes in these Arab countries come to power. The US and UK even led a coup to dismantle democracy in Iran in 1953 because the elected leader did not agree with the US/UK's control of Iranian oil. This resulted in a monarchy that lasted several decades in Iran (I realize Iran is not an Arabic country, however it is in the region of discussion and the dismantling of its democracy has a ripple effect to nearby Arab countries making it less likely for other democracies to form; it also serves as an example of the actions the US and UK are willing to take for their own interests at the expense and well-being of this region and how they do not actually care or want stability/democracies in this area). Hamas was also helped to power through repeated intervention by the US and other western powers. And the list goes on (not just in this region, but around the world).
Despite all of this, there are Arab countries that do currently have partial democracies and there are growing movements throughout the region pushing for instituting democracies. The Arab Spring and Libyan Civil Uprising are both examples of Arabs rising against their governments for the hope of a better life and democracy. They are living and dying for the cause.
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Right, fuck this thread, and fuck me for thinking it was possible to actually discuss this.
This has actually been a pretty tame thread considering the subject matter and this being Slap. You started the topic and multiple people have given you honest, thought-out answers regarding their position while also challenging your statements in a pretty respectful manner (for a skateboard messagboard). People are discussing it. Why are you upset?
yes that was what I meant: Israel's ability to form a democracy gives it a "moral high ground" if you will. There are arab members of the Knesset but nowhere in the arab world can you find jewish members of parliament, I don't think so. Everything else you said is true and I cannot disagree with it. But if you take the exemple of Algeria, how long can you blame French colonialism for the fucked-up state the country is in? Nobody has intervened in Algeria since independence, 60 years ago, but it is still a one-party state.
But is this ability to form a democracy really an accurate measurement of "moral high ground" if Israel and its government is being supported by the most powerful nations in the world while Arab countries and their governments are being purposely sabotaged by these same world powers?
As for Jewish-Arab government representation as a measure of a country's "moral ground":
Had to look up the exact numbers, but the Arab countries with the largest Jewish populations are Tunisia and Morocco. Jewish people make up approximately 0.02% and 0.006% of these nation's populations respectively. Not even 1% of the population in these countries is Jewish - we are talking tiny fractions of a percent and this is in the two Arab countries with the largest Jewish populations. In the other Arab countries we're looking closer to 0.0001-0.000001% of the population being Jewish. Therefore it wouldn't make much sense for these countries to have Jewish people in their parliaments/representative bodies of government. It would make even less sense to judge these nations for this fact.
Meanwhile Arab people make up approximately 20% of Israel's population. That is a large percentage of the population and therefore it makes sense for Israel to have an Arab presence in their representative government. However once again, does this even allow Israel to hold some form of "moral high ground" if they treat their Arab population as 2nd class citizens and create barriers to their participation in voting, etc? Not expecting you to answer that, just a question to consider.
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2 : Israel is the only democracy in the region. There is not one arab country with democracy, unfortunately.
I'm not sure what point you're making here? Should new states only be allowed to form if they are a democracy? Does Israel's ability to form a democracy give it a greater right to exist/a more superior position in comparison to Arab countries and potential new Arab states? Just trying to guess what you mean by this point.
The reason for a lack of democracies in the Arab world is wildly complicated. For one, Western-style democracy is not a one size fits all solution that will work for every country. Also, Western powers love to point their finger at the Middle East (and other areas of the world) and criticize them for their instability, corruption, and lack of democracy, painting them as inferior nations and their people as uncivilized. This is also the message that is fed to the people in these western nations. However it is decades of continued intervention from these same western powers to purposefully destabilize the region that has made it impossible to institute a democracy in most of these countries.
The US especially is guilty of this and has directly helped several authoritarian regimes in these Arab countries come to power. The US and UK even led a coup to dismantle democracy in Iran in 1953 because the elected leader did not agree with the US/UK's control of Iranian oil. This resulted in a monarchy that lasted several decades in Iran (I realize Iran is not an Arabic country, however it is in the region of discussion and the dismantling of its democracy has a ripple effect to nearby Arab countries making it less likely for other democracies to form; it also serves as an example of the actions the US and UK are willing to take for their own interests at the expense and well-being of this region and how they do not actually care or want stability/democracies in this area). Hamas was also helped to power through repeated intervention by the US and other western powers. And the list goes on (not just in this region, but around the world).
Despite all of this, there are Arab countries that do currently have partial democracies and there are growing movements throughout the region pushing for instituting democracies. The Arab Spring and Libyan Civil Uprising are both examples of Arabs rising against their governments for the hope of a better life and democracy. They are living and dying for the cause.
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Right, fuck this thread, and fuck me for thinking it was possible to actually discuss this.
This has actually been a pretty tame thread considering the subject matter and this being Slap. You started the topic and multiple people have given you honest, thought-out answers regarding their position while also challenging your statements in a pretty respectful manner (for a skateboard messagboard). People are discussing it. Why are you upset?
yes that was what I meant: Israel's ability to form a democracy gives it a "moral high ground" if you will. There are arab members of the Knesset but nowhere in the arab world can you find jewish members of parliament, I don't think so. Everything else you said is true and I cannot disagree with it. But if you take the exemple of Algeria, how long can you blame French colonialism for the fucked-up state the country is in? Nobody has intervened in Algeria since independence, 60 years ago, but it is still a one-party state.
But is this ability to form a democracy really an accurate measurement of "moral high ground" if Israel and its government is being supported by the most powerful nations in the world while Arab countries and their governments are being purposely sabotaged by these same world powers?
As for Jewish-Arab government representation as a measure of a country's "moral ground":
Had to look up the exact numbers, but the Arab countries with the largest Jewish populations are Tunisia and Morocco. Jewish people make up approximately 0.02% and 0.006% of these nation's populations respectively. Not even 1% of the population in these countries is Jewish - we are talking tiny fractions of a percent and this is in the two Arab countries with the largest Jewish populations. In the other Arab countries we're looking closer to 0.0001-0.000001% of the population being Jewish. Therefore it wouldn't make much sense for these countries to have Jewish people in their parliaments/representative bodies of government. It would make even less sense to judge these nations for this fact.
Meanwhile Arab people make up approximately 20% of Israel's population. That is a large percentage of the population and therefore it makes sense for Israel to have an Arab presence in their representative government. However once again, does this even allow Israel to hold some form of "moral high ground" if they treat their Arab population as 2nd class citizens and create barriers to their participation in voting, etc? Not expecting you to answer that, just a question to consider.
The reason why there aren't any Jews in Arab countries anymore is because anti-Jewish riots broke out, they were expelled and most had to flee to Israel.
That being said, I agree with your point. Muslim Arabs are discriminated against and don't have equal rights in Israel, especially since Arabic was removed as an official language in 2018. Since that act, Israel is considered a "Jewish nation state", which excludes minorities.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jul/19/one-more-racist-law-reactions-as-israel-axes-arabic-as-official-language
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Israel did have elections a few months ago and Natanyahu 'won' again with an emergency government under the threat of the virus. hes a professional at taking advantage of threats and probably the best politician israel ever had. we had 3 elections in about a year and in all election he didnt win but successfully blocked a new government to form and led us to re-elections.
he has a bunch of corruption charges floating over his head and surrounded by corrupt people.
i doubt anything changes anytime soon, israel is really divided among itself, the right wing will never vote for a left wing leader, the left wing is super divided and have no real leader, and even in the left wing some politicians wont sit in a coalition with an arab party, basically blocking any chance to form a government that actually want to change stuff. and the security threat still makes people blind to how bad things really are under the government we had in the last decade or so. sometimes it feels that people vote for parties like it was their favorite football club and its for life, they will keep voting for the same guy even when they know hes bad.
financially israel is a mess, wages are bad and everything is super expensive, especially rent. the second we dont have the life threat over our head we will start demanding shit from our government and ask questions for how they spend our tax money.with all the money we spend on religion and demands from the religious parties that have alot of political power because their public is unified and the money we spend on the army israel could have been an amazing place. but even if israel did a complete 180 and started trying, this whole area is infected with foreign interests. from the USA to Russia and even Iran, everyone has a piece in this conflict.
i dont have much hope for the direction israel is taking right now, alot of the world is having a rise of nationalism and stupidity right now and israel is no different. it will probably be worse before it becomes better.
right now so many people live in settlements and in areas that might be given back in the future that its going to be a big problem politically and logistically. Gaza area had about 10,000 settlers while in the west bank there are about 400,000. israel is tiny and only has about 8 million citizens, its not going to be easy. they built a few big cities that are going to be a big problem if the Palestinians wont give up that land. The government pretty much solidified israels presence in the area over a long period of right wing leadership. the scumbag that was the minister of education even built a university there. it is possible to withdraw from alot of small settlements, but a complete withdraw seems unlikely, especially with the atmosphere we have right now. even mellow people are worried that we will have buses and restaurants blowing up weekly again if we withdraw.
the best solution i can see is a complete seperation and having two states in agreed territories and that will require hard compromises from both sides. living next to a hostile nation is easier than occupying it, easier to deal with in a diplomatic manner and easier to get the worlds support if you attack it with a good reason and there is always the chance that it wont be a hostile nation and we will both gain from it. the best peace is achieved with common interests, and financially it could be amazing for both sides, and thats not talking about the increase in the quality of life and general safety.
Thanks for your reply, man! I hope that things will get better at some point in the future for people on both sides of the border, because they deserve it. I really liked Israel when I was there 2 years ago. You seem to have a great scene in cities like Tel Aviv with so much going on. I found Israel different from what many people might expect it to be: open-minded people, great food, hospitality. It's a shame that politics are so difficult there (the same applies to Palestine/West Bank).
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i refuse to give a shit about this thread until i hear from a palestinian
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Israel did have elections a few months ago and Natanyahu 'won' again with an emergency government under the threat of the virus. hes a professional at taking advantage of threats and probably the best politician israel ever had. we had 3 elections in about a year and in all election he didnt win but successfully blocked a new government to form and led us to re-elections.
he has a bunch of corruption charges floating over his head and surrounded by corrupt people.
i doubt anything changes anytime soon, israel is really divided among itself, the right wing will never vote for a left wing leader, the left wing is super divided and have no real leader, and even in the left wing some politicians wont sit in a coalition with an arab party, basically blocking any chance to form a government that actually want to change stuff. and the security threat still makes people blind to how bad things really are under the government we had in the last decade or so. sometimes it feels that people vote for parties like it was their favorite football club and its for life, they will keep voting for the same guy even when they know hes bad.
financially israel is a mess, wages are bad and everything is super expensive, especially rent. the second we dont have the life threat over our head we will start demanding shit from our government and ask questions for how they spend our tax money.with all the money we spend on religion and demands from the religious parties that have alot of political power because their public is unified and the money we spend on the army israel could have been an amazing place. but even if israel did a complete 180 and started trying, this whole area is infected with foreign interests. from the USA to Russia and even Iran, everyone has a piece in this conflict.
i dont have much hope for the direction israel is taking right now, alot of the world is having a rise of nationalism and stupidity right now and israel is no different. it will probably be worse before it becomes better.
right now so many people live in settlements and in areas that might be given back in the future that its going to be a big problem politically and logistically. Gaza area had about 10,000 settlers while in the west bank there are about 400,000. israel is tiny and only has about 8 million citizens, its not going to be easy. they built a few big cities that are going to be a big problem if the Palestinians wont give up that land. The government pretty much solidified israels presence in the area over a long period of right wing leadership. the scumbag that was the minister of education even built a university there. it is possible to withdraw from alot of small settlements, but a complete withdraw seems unlikely, especially with the atmosphere we have right now. even mellow people are worried that we will have buses and restaurants blowing up weekly again if we withdraw.
the best solution i can see is a complete seperation and having two states in agreed territories and that will require hard compromises from both sides. living next to a hostile nation is easier than occupying it, easier to deal with in a diplomatic manner and easier to get the worlds support if you attack it with a good reason and there is always the chance that it wont be a hostile nation and we will both gain from it. the best peace is achieved with common interests, and financially it could be amazing for both sides, and thats not talking about the increase in the quality of life and general safety.
Thanks for your reply, man! I hope that things will get better at some point in the future for people on both sides of the border, because they deserve it. I really liked Israel when I was there 2 years ago. You seem to have a great scene in cities like Tel Aviv with so much going on. I found Israel different from what many people might expect it to be: open-minded people, great food, hospitality. It's a shame that politics are so difficult there (the same applies to Palestine/West Bank).
Agreed, been to Israel twice myself a couple of months at a time to visit my girlfriend's family and loved it. I'm neither religious nor interested in tourist attractions, so I mostly just spent time with my girlfriend around her neighborhood and while visiting I've witnessed plenty of diversity among the folks around both the Tel Aviv and Rishon LeZion regions mostly consisting of Israeli, Russian, Arab, Filipino and Ethiopians. I'm Mexican American myself and was told there's even a small community of Latin/Hispanics in Tel Aviv somewhere, but I'm not sure whether there's any truth to that or if just the local who told me was trying to make me feel welcomed, however I did meet someone who immigrated from Spain and was making a living selling at one of the local markets.
Eranka who posted his perspective and thoughts up above in this very thread was even kind enough to contact me here on Slap after I had posted some footage and invited me to check out more local skate spots, however I couldn't make it unfortunately because due to the whole Covid-19 situation I was already on my way back home to Chicago at that time, but regardless I've never experienced such hospitality from a total stranger before.
Despite all of it's complications I feel Israel is truly something precious and hopefully someday both sides of the conflict will find a way to coexist and be at peace together, although it's pretty evident that peace is possible between it's average everyday civilians I hope their political parties will stop jeopardizing the lives of both sides. That's just my impression though, from an outsider who is perhaps a bit ignorant.
I'm sharing this last bit just because it's a little funny I guess, but I had a couple of original Shalom stickers from the first batch feedmeseymour had made and distributed. I took one all the way with me to Israel for the soul purpose of placing it at Galit park in Tel Aviv. That was months ago already and I wonder if it's still even there by now.
(Side note, Anti Hero have said they were involved in the parks development somehow)
(https://i.imgur.com/XjekOLU.jpg)
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Between his first and second stints in office, my sister had to procure and deliver a $20,000 check to Netanyahu for a college speaking engagement. She was not enthused about it but remarked, "at least he's no longer Prime Minister."
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2 : Israel is the only democracy in the region. There is not one arab country with democracy, unfortunately.
I'm not sure what point you're making here? Should new states only be allowed to form if they are a democracy? Does Israel's ability to form a democracy give it a greater right to exist/a more superior position in comparison to Arab countries and potential new Arab states? Just trying to guess what you mean by this point.
The reason for a lack of democracies in the Arab world is wildly complicated. For one, Western-style democracy is not a one size fits all solution that will work for every country. Also, Western powers love to point their finger at the Middle East (and other areas of the world) and criticize them for their instability, corruption, and lack of democracy, painting them as inferior nations and their people as uncivilized. This is also the message that is fed to the people in these western nations. However it is decades of continued intervention from these same western powers to purposefully destabilize the region that has made it impossible to institute a democracy in most of these countries.
The US especially is guilty of this and has directly helped several authoritarian regimes in these Arab countries come to power. The US and UK even led a coup to dismantle democracy in Iran in 1953 because the elected leader did not agree with the US/UK's control of Iranian oil. This resulted in a monarchy that lasted several decades in Iran (I realize Iran is not an Arabic country, however it is in the region of discussion and the dismantling of its democracy has a ripple effect to nearby Arab countries making it less likely for other democracies to form; it also serves as an example of the actions the US and UK are willing to take for their own interests at the expense and well-being of this region and how they do not actually care or want stability/democracies in this area). Hamas was also helped to power through repeated intervention by the US and other western powers. And the list goes on (not just in this region, but around the world).
Despite all of this, there are Arab countries that do currently have partial democracies and there are growing movements throughout the region pushing for instituting democracies. The Arab Spring and Libyan Civil Uprising are both examples of Arabs rising against their governments for the hope of a better life and democracy. They are living and dying for the cause.
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Right, fuck this thread, and fuck me for thinking it was possible to actually discuss this.
This has actually been a pretty tame thread considering the subject matter and this being Slap. You started the topic and multiple people have given you honest, thought-out answers regarding their position while also challenging your statements in a pretty respectful manner (for a skateboard messagboard). People are discussing it. Why are you upset?
yes that was what I meant: Israel's ability to form a democracy gives it a "moral high ground" if you will. There are arab members of the Knesset but nowhere in the arab world can you find jewish members of parliament, I don't think so. Everything else you said is true and I cannot disagree with it. But if you take the exemple of Algeria, how long can you blame French colonialism for the fucked-up state the country is in? Nobody has intervened in Algeria since independence, 60 years ago, but it is still a one-party state.
But is this ability to form a democracy really an accurate measurement of "moral high ground" if Israel and its government is being supported by the most powerful nations in the world while Arab countries and their governments are being purposely sabotaged by these same world powers?
As for Jewish-Arab government representation as a measure of a country's "moral ground":
Had to look up the exact numbers, but the Arab countries with the largest Jewish populations are Tunisia and Morocco. Jewish people make up approximately 0.02% and 0.006% of these nation's populations respectively. Not even 1% of the population in these countries is Jewish - we are talking tiny fractions of a percent and this is in the two Arab countries with the largest Jewish populations. In the other Arab countries we're looking closer to 0.0001-0.000001% of the population being Jewish. Therefore it wouldn't make much sense for these countries to have Jewish people in their parliaments/representative bodies of government. It would make even less sense to judge these nations for this fact.
Meanwhile Arab people make up approximately 20% of Israel's population. That is a large percentage of the population and therefore it makes sense for Israel to have an Arab presence in their representative government. However once again, does this even allow Israel to hold some form of "moral high ground" if they treat their Arab population as 2nd class citizens and create barriers to their participation in voting, etc? Not expecting you to answer that, just a question to consider.
Honestly man this just shows how little you know about the issue and the region. After Israel was founded the vast majority of Jews living in arab states had to flee the retaliations. To give you an idea, there were 300 000 jews in Morocco in 1945, less than 10 000 in the 80's.
Also, while it is true the west does intervene in some countries, that does not explain everything. no one "sabotages" governments in countries like Algeria/morocco/tunisia. It's just that the military clique that governs since independence refuses to give up power. It's an internal struggle, and sometimes a very violent one. Algeria had a bloody civil war in the 90's because when they tried to have elections, the islamists won. The military then cancelled the elections' result and that was the start of a 10 year long war.
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Ethno-nationalism is a bad idea, regardless of who controls the state. A jewish state shouldn't exist anymore than a christian or islamic state. Any political entity that prioritizes one religion over another is bound to oppress.
Beyond that, Israel supports illegal settlement and the oppression of one race over another due to religious favoritism. It's not a good idea. It's not working out for the majority. At one time they may not have been the aggressor, but they certainly are now. Bulldozing over peaceful protestors, shooting kids and medics, the list goes on. Any justification for this is sheer entitlement and ego that's putting one religious group over another.
I totally agree with you in theory , but you do realize all arab states are islamic states? Governed by islamic law. To give you an exemple, the inheritance laws: women get half of what men get, still today. I think Tunisia is the only arab state that instituted equality for that, in 2017.
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i refuse to give a shit about this thread until i hear from a palestinian
I used to live in Syria, but I guess that’s not exactly what you’re asking for.
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i refuse to give a shit about this thread until i hear from a palestinian
I used to live in Syria, but I guess that’s not exactly what you’re asking for.
I don't know what the dude expects other than hatered towards US/Israel...
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i refuse to give a shit about this thread until i hear from a palestinian
Why? You won't believe it until you hear it from a Palestinian?
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Israel is a National Socialist State. People don't like to hear that but it is. France is pretty close to one now.
The entire frickin planet is tripping out on the good old days because all systems are suffering from PTSD.
Elitist primates fuck off
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2 : Israel is the only democracy in the region. There is not one arab country with democracy, unfortunately.
I'm not sure what point you're making here? Should new states only be allowed to form if they are a democracy? Does Israel's ability to form a democracy give it a greater right to exist/a more superior position in comparison to Arab countries and potential new Arab states? Just trying to guess what you mean by this point.
The reason for a lack of democracies in the Arab world is wildly complicated. For one, Western-style democracy is not a one size fits all solution that will work for every country. Also, Western powers love to point their finger at the Middle East (and other areas of the world) and criticize them for their instability, corruption, and lack of democracy, painting them as inferior nations and their people as uncivilized. This is also the message that is fed to the people in these western nations. However it is decades of continued intervention from these same western powers to purposefully destabilize the region that has made it impossible to institute a democracy in most of these countries.
The US especially is guilty of this and has directly helped several authoritarian regimes in these Arab countries come to power. The US and UK even led a coup to dismantle democracy in Iran in 1953 because the elected leader did not agree with the US/UK's control of Iranian oil. This resulted in a monarchy that lasted several decades in Iran (I realize Iran is not an Arabic country, however it is in the region of discussion and the dismantling of its democracy has a ripple effect to nearby Arab countries making it less likely for other democracies to form; it also serves as an example of the actions the US and UK are willing to take for their own interests at the expense and well-being of this region and how they do not actually care or want stability/democracies in this area). Hamas was also helped to power through repeated intervention by the US and other western powers. And the list goes on (not just in this region, but around the world).
Despite all of this, there are Arab countries that do currently have partial democracies and there are growing movements throughout the region pushing for instituting democracies. The Arab Spring and Libyan Civil Uprising are both examples of Arabs rising against their governments for the hope of a better life and democracy. They are living and dying for the cause.
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Right, fuck this thread, and fuck me for thinking it was possible to actually discuss this.
This has actually been a pretty tame thread considering the subject matter and this being Slap. You started the topic and multiple people have given you honest, thought-out answers regarding their position while also challenging your statements in a pretty respectful manner (for a skateboard messagboard). People are discussing it. Why are you upset?
yes that was what I meant: Israel's ability to form a democracy gives it a "moral high ground" if you will. There are arab members of the Knesset but nowhere in the arab world can you find jewish members of parliament, I don't think so. Everything else you said is true and I cannot disagree with it. But if you take the exemple of Algeria, how long can you blame French colonialism for the fucked-up state the country is in? Nobody has intervened in Algeria since independence, 60 years ago, but it is still a one-party state.
But is this ability to form a democracy really an accurate measurement of "moral high ground" if Israel and its government is being supported by the most powerful nations in the world while Arab countries and their governments are being purposely sabotaged by these same world powers?
As for Jewish-Arab government representation as a measure of a country's "moral ground":
Had to look up the exact numbers, but the Arab countries with the largest Jewish populations are Tunisia and Morocco. Jewish people make up approximately 0.02% and 0.006% of these nation's populations respectively. Not even 1% of the population in these countries is Jewish - we are talking tiny fractions of a percent and this is in the two Arab countries with the largest Jewish populations. In the other Arab countries we're looking closer to 0.0001-0.000001% of the population being Jewish. Therefore it wouldn't make much sense for these countries to have Jewish people in their parliaments/representative bodies of government. It would make even less sense to judge these nations for this fact.
Meanwhile Arab people make up approximately 20% of Israel's population. That is a large percentage of the population and therefore it makes sense for Israel to have an Arab presence in their representative government. However once again, does this even allow Israel to hold some form of "moral high ground" if they treat their Arab population as 2nd class citizens and create barriers to their participation in voting, etc? Not expecting you to answer that, just a question to consider.
Honestly man this just shows how little you know about the issue and the region. After Israel was founded the vast majority of Jews living in arab states had to flee the retaliations. To give you an idea, there were 300 000 jews in Morocco in 1945, less than 10 000 in the 80's.
Also, while it is true the west does intervene in some countries, that does not explain everything. no one "sabotages" governments in countries like Algeria/morocco/tunisia. It's just that the military clique that governs since independence refuses to give up power. It's an internal struggle, and sometimes a very violent one. Algeria had a bloody civil war in the 90's because when they tried to have elections, the islamists won. The military then cancelled the elections' result and that was the start of a 10 year long war.
Haha I almost feel like I’m being gaslighted here. Yes, it’s basic knowledge that Jewish people left in masses from the Arab nations where they once lived due to hostile conditions – I figured that was a given and didn’t need to be directly pointed out. My grandfather and some relatives were actually among those Jewish people that fled these areas (including Morocco) during that time period. You had brought up that Arab nations with democratic elements in their current governments do not have any Jewish representation – so I provided present day numbers showing that: well yeah, there’s not going to be Jewish representation in these nations’ governments when there are very few Jewish people that live there.
Also, while it is true the west does intervene in some countries, that does not explain everything. no one "sabotages" governments in countries like Algeria/morocco/tunisia.
Perhaps “sabotage” was too intense of a verb for me to use here (although it is certainly fitting for some cases) and maybe “derail”, “destabilize”, or “undermine” are more fitting when generally speaking of the West’s intentions when intervening. These interventions are not always just in the form of physical occupancy, assisting in overthrow of a government, bribing/corrupting politicians, etc. They also come in the form of deliberate and targeted economic actions that affect the country’s economic stability, value of local currency, and resources (and it should be noted that historically the ability to maintain a stabile and successful economy is vital to the process of establishing a democracy). No matter the form of intervention taken, the end goal when intervening is always the same: to protect their interests and maintain control/influence in the region at any cost.
Anyway, the list of Arab nations where this has taken place in recent times is significantly larger than the list where it hasn’t. Also that group of 3 countries you provided is not free from intervention by western powers in recent times either.
With that said, I never stated that the only reason democracy is not more prevalent in Arab nations or that all problems in the region are due to outside intervention from western powers. That would be a gross oversimplification of the situation. Other internal factors specific to the inner workings of these Arab nations obviously exist as well. However when specifically comparing Israel’s ability to form a democracy to other nations in the region (which was the topic we were discussing), an emphasis on outside intervention from western powers is necessary since it plays such a huge role in the different outcomes of Israel and these other nations.
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But if you take the exemple of Algeria, how long can you blame French colonialism for the fucked-up state the country is in? Nobody has intervened in Algeria since independence, 60 years ago, but it is still a one-party state.
For many (but not all) countries, it takes several decades if not longer to complete the process of beginning a democratic movement to successfully forming a stable democracy. It’s often a long, tumultuous back and forth process that depends on many factors. Several Arab nations have already established partial democracies while others have growing movements towards establishing the initial elements of a democracy. They are on their way, but it takes time just like it did for many democracies that currently exist around the world. There is no set timeline for how long it’s supposed to take. Each nation is unique and has its own barriers and obstacles to overcome. When additional barriers and obstacles continue to be thrown into the mix like we’re seeing in many of the nations under discussion, the process takes even longer.
As for Algeria specifically – French colonization of Algeria lasted over 130 years and involved stealing farm land from the people, exploiting their resources, destroying aspects of their culture, and systematic torture and killing of Algerian people among countless other atrocities. It would take a long time for any country to recover from colonial rule of that length and severity, even if they are truly left alone for 60 years without significant outside intervention. Unfortunately that is not the case in Algeria as even after colonization ended, France continued intervening for the sake of their own interests at the expense and detriment of Algeria and its people.
For example, France continued to have military stationed in Algeria and used the now independent country as a test site for France’s nuclear bomb program. Over the span of several years after colonization ended, France detonated more than a dozen nuclear bombs in Algeria. France even used local Algerians as test subjects and purposefully placed them in proximity of the bomb sites so they could learn about the effects of radiation on the human body. The effects of these bombs and their radiation continue to this day as tens of thousands Algerians have fallen ill from cancer and other health ailments linked to the radiation. Beyond the human death toll, these bombings continue to cost Algeria via its environmental and economic impact as well as added stress to the medical system. Issues and problems like these have a lasting impact and influence on the stability of a nation, shaping of political discourse, the people/parties that come to power, etc.
This is only one example of post-colonial intervention in Algeria though and does not even touch on outside actions regarding Algeria’s oil supply and natural resources among other things. To say that nobody has intervened in Algeria since independence is simply not true.
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That’s it from me. I’m just challenging some of your statements and reasoning for your beliefs in this thread. I’m not disagreeing with your belief that Israel has a right to exist (and it appears most here are not either), however I can’t say I agree with many of your supporting statements you’ve provided in this thread and in some cases I strongly disagree with them, but I guess we’ll just have to leave it at that. Good discussion.
Best of luck to you.
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But if you take the exemple of Algeria, how long can you blame French colonialism for the fucked-up state the country is in? Nobody has intervened in Algeria since independence, 60 years ago, but it is still a one-party state.
know that there are some of us out here who do not think there is a statute of limitations on ANY country's bungling, insatiable, disastrous, imperialistic intrusions into another country--especially European countries' cursed intrusions into Africa.
convince me that there is actually some kind of realistic, concrete set of criteria for evaluating the scale and scope of damage--social, economic, cultural, spiritual--caused by a colonialist power that enters, occupies, and leaves another country, and maybe we can begin to talk about how long a country like France is accountable for what happens in Algeria after it has left.
and i hold my county in far more contempt historically, than i do yours by the way
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That’s it from me. I’m just challenging some of your statements and reasoning for your beliefs in this thread. I’m not disagreeing with your belief that Israel has a right to exist (and it appears most here are not either), however I can’t say I agree with many of your supporting statements you’ve provided in this thread and in some cases I strongly disagree with them, but I guess we’ll just have to leave it at that. Good discussion.
Best of luck to you.
thanks for a very well written and thought-out answer, I learned some stuff here! Including the meaning of "gaslighting" ha..... And sorry for assuming you did not know something that is obviously basic knowledge for you and even family history.
BTW I looked up this thing about nuclear tests in Algeria and you are right. I just don't understand how it could happen after independence, as the French army was well and truly beaten during this war so I just don't get how all that could happen afterwards...I'll try to find some more info.
On the whole I think we agree about more stuff than disagree, actually.
And good luck to you too!
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But if you take the exemple of Algeria, how long can you blame French colonialism for the fucked-up state the country is in? Nobody has intervened in Algeria since independence, 60 years ago, but it is still a one-party state.
know that there are some of us out here who do not think there is a statute of limitations on ANY country's bungling, insatiable, disastrous, imperialistic intrusions into another country--especially European countries' cursed intrusions into Africa.
convince me that there is actually some kind of realistic, concrete set of criteria for evaluating the scale and scope of damage--social, economic, cultural, spiritual--caused by a colonialist power that enters, occupies, and leaves another country, and maybe we can begin to talk about how long a country like France is accountable for what happens in Algeria after it has left.
and i hold my county in far more contempt historically, than i do yours by the way
I don't have answers for those questions, man. I won't pretend I do. But if, as you say, you hold France accountable for what happens in Algeria today, then should we hold Turkey responsable for what happens in Greece? After 500 years of Ottoman rule? If there is no "statute of limitations", there's just no end to the blame game. I know a lot of people who think Spain's conquistadors were plain evil, but then should we blame the 700 years of arab occupation for turning Spain into an agressive and militarized society?
What I've been saying from the beginning is that the idea of colonialism being a western concept is just false. It's a human concept.
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I don't have answers for those questions, man. I won't pretend I do. But if, as you say, you hold France accountable for what happens in Algeria today, then should we hold Turkey responsable for what happens in Greece? After 500 years of Ottoman rule? If there is no "statute of limitations", there's just no end to the blame game. I know a lot of people who think Spain's conquistadors were plain evil, but then should we blame the 700 years of arab occupation for turning Spain into an agressive and militarized society?
What I've been saying from the beginning is that the idea of colonialism being a western concept is just false. It's a human concept.
Half paying attention to this thread but...
Algeria's independence was less than 60 years ago compared to the First Hellenic Republic coming about 200 years ago. The timing here is all the more important when we consider global growth in wealth prior to the 1800s was minimal and it exploded after that (thanks industrial revolution).
Second, its not like the French left Algeria in a great financial situation. Having to fight for independence wrecked the economy and the settlers sabotaged quite a bit of the machinery on their way out. And that the Evian Agreement was never going to hold as it gave the French far too much (especially in relation to oil). The Evian Agreement was no Marshall Plan.
Third, it ignores the political vacuum that existed after the war.
This isn't to put all the blame on the French (obv. the French can't be blamed for drops in oil prices, which the economy relies on heavily), but I sometimes feel it is hard to bark at a country, "So what if we screwed you over. You should have done better picking up the pieces of your shattered economy and fractured political landscape."
Also, it would be interesting to compare which former French colonies boomed in their independence and which ones struggled and what the differences were in terms of gaining independence, natural resources, education at the time of independence, percent of country owned by local bus/gov rather than foreign bus/gov, political leadership, and so on.
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I don't have answers for those questions, man. I won't pretend I do. But if, as you say, you hold France accountable for what happens in Algeria today, then should we hold Turkey responsable for what happens in Greece? After 500 years of Ottoman rule? If there is no "statute of limitations", there's just no end to the blame game. I know a lot of people who think Spain's conquistadors were plain evil, but then should we blame the 700 years of arab occupation for turning Spain into an agressive and militarized society?
What I've been saying from the beginning is that the idea of colonialism being a western concept is just false. It's a human concept.
Half paying attention to this thread but...
Algeria's independence was less than 60 years ago compared to the First Hellenic Republic coming about 200 years ago. The timing here is all the more important when we consider global growth in wealth prior to the 1800s was minimal and it exploded after that (thanks industrial revolution).
Second, its not like the French left Algeria in a great financial situation. Having to fight for independence wrecked the economy and the settlers sabotaged quite a bit of the machinery on their way out. And that the Evian Agreement was never going to hold as it gave the French far too much (especially in relation to oil). The Evian Agreement was no Marshall Plan.
Third, it ignores the political vacuum that existed after the war.
This isn't to put all the blame on the French (obv. the French can't be blamed for drops in oil prices, which the economy relies on heavily), but I sometimes feel it is hard to bark at a country, "So what if we screwed you over. You should have done better picking up the pieces of your shattered economy and fractured political landscape."
Also, it would be interesting to compare which former French colonies boomed in their independence and which ones struggled and what the differences were in terms of gaining independence, natural resources, education at the time of independence, percent of country owned by local bus/gov rather than foreign bus/gov, political leadership, and so on.
all solid points Lurper. as i said in the comment that Frenchie was responding to, if one is to have any kind of realistic talk about accountability and consequences in this conversation, then the scale/scope of the damage caused by a colonialist power throughout the process of it entering, occupying, AND leaving another country all need to be considered--you basically put some meat on the bones of my comment...
edit: if there's a logic and/or value system governing how "reps" work in here, i'm sure it escapes me--i don't see any discernible correlation between my comments/participation in here, and the seemingly independent life of my "rep." it seems to go up and go down based on some force/process that might as well be cosmic, if it's a matter of how much i understand it. that being said, Frenchie old sport, even if i could, i would never kook you for this thread or for your comments in it. out of all of the issues in our day and age, this one needs to be discussed. as i said earlier, i'm always happy to see when my freshman students have the sand to tussle with this topic when we do our big researched argument paper in the ENG 1020 classes i teach.
considering how civil this thread has seemed to remain--and regardless if any opinions have actually been changed--it doesn't seem that anyone has espoused any toxic or extreme sentiments for any one position in the argument, and it doesn't seem that any feelings have been hurt, so as far as i'm concerned, a positive and important conversation and thread...
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I don't have answers for those questions, man. I won't pretend I do. But if, as you say, you hold France accountable for what happens in Algeria today, then should we hold Turkey responsable for what happens in Greece? After 500 years of Ottoman rule? If there is no "statute of limitations", there's just no end to the blame game. I know a lot of people who think Spain's conquistadors were plain evil, but then should we blame the 700 years of arab occupation for turning Spain into an agressive and militarized society?
What I've been saying from the beginning is that the idea of colonialism being a western concept is just false. It's a human concept.
Half paying attention to this thread but...
Algeria's independence was less than 60 years ago compared to the First Hellenic Republic coming about 200 years ago. The timing here is all the more important when we consider global growth in wealth prior to the 1800s was minimal and it exploded after that (thanks industrial revolution).
Second, its not like the French left Algeria in a great financial situation. Having to fight for independence wrecked the economy and the settlers sabotaged quite a bit of the machinery on their way out. And that the Evian Agreement was never going to hold as it gave the French far too much (especially in relation to oil). The Evian Agreement was no Marshall Plan.
Third, it ignores the political vacuum that existed after the war.
This isn't to put all the blame on the French (obv. the French can't be blamed for drops in oil prices, which the economy relies on heavily), but I sometimes feel it is hard to bark at a country, "So what if we screwed you over. You should have done better picking up the pieces of your shattered economy and fractured political landscape."
Also, it would be interesting to compare which former French colonies boomed in their independence and which ones struggled and what the differences were in terms of gaining independence, natural resources, education at the time of independence, percent of country owned by local bus/gov rather than foreign bus/gov, political leadership, and so on.
all solid points Lurper. as i said in the comment that Frenchie was responding to, if one is to have any kind of realistic talk about accountability and consequences in this conversation, then the scale/scope of the damage caused by a colonialist power throughout the process of it entering, occupying, AND leaving another country all need to be considered--you basically put some meat on the bones of my comment...
edit: if there's a logic and/or value system governing how "reps" work in here, i'm sure it escapes me--i don't see any discernible correlation between my comments/participation in here, and the seemingly independent life of my "rep." it seems to go up and go down based on some force/process that might as well be cosmic, if it's a matter of how much i understand it. that being said, Frenchie old sport, even if i could, i would never kook you for this thread or for your comments in it. out of all of the issues in our day and age, this one needs to be discussed. as i said earlier, i'm always happy to see when my freshman students have the sand to tussle with this topic when we do our big researched argument paper in the ENG 1020 classes i teach.
considering how civil this thread has seemed to remain--and regardless if any opinions have actually been changed--it doesn't seem that anyone has espoused any toxic or extreme sentiments for any one position in the argument, and it doesn't seem that any feelings have been hurt, so as far as i'm concerned, a positive and important conversation and thread...
well if we're going to talk about invasions and occupation, one might point out that France was invaded, occupied and pretty much half destroyed just a little before the Algerian war, in that little regional conflict called WWII. Now I'm being ironic here, but whole French cities like Rouen, Le Havre and Toulon were almost totally razed. And a lot of the shady shit French politicians did after the war actually has its roots in the resistance: these guys were used to underground and/or violent operations. Watch Army of shadows by Melville, on this topic.
And this is what I mean by "the blame game having no end". France obviously handled decolonization very badly (cough cough Vietnam war....) but WWII has to be considered as well if judging that period.
In any case, my point is not to defend France or French politics/history, which has stains like any other country's, it wasn't my original intention. My point is rather that war and invasion are the normal state of affairs in world history.
Anyways to those of you that gave me solid arguments instead of insults, I think we would agree generally on my original point: there should be room for a Jewish state in the Middle East, and saying "death to Israel" (or death to any country) should not be tolerated on this forum IMHO.
->Deputy Wendell: I'm reading this right now, if you mention your own country's colonialist past. It's an awesome book!
(https://static.fnac-static.com/multimedia/Images/FR/NR/e0/95/93/9672160/1540-1/tsp20180314111035/Little-Big-Horn-autopsie-d-une-bataille-legendaire.jpg)
Oh btw about rep: it's still kind of a mystery to me too man! and basically I dont care. I knew this thread was going to attract me a lot of flak, but why should I care about my "rep" on a skateboarding forum really? A little too old to try and be "popular". ::)
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While we are bit off topic here, but I'm interested...
I'm not sure we can compare France recovering from the wars and 2-4 years of Nazi occupation (as insanely brutal as that was) to Algeria attempting to (re)form and build a state after being under French rule for 130ish years.
France was the second biggest recipient of Marshall Plan money.
France's enemy was crippled on the world stage and France had a lot of power dictating the terms of post-war Germany.
Germany paid France in industrial assets, coal, and forced labor in the post-war era.
What else played a role in the 30 glorious years post WWII?
How did France reconstruct during the 4th Republic? What themes and politicians and parties held from the 3rd to 4th Republic? What residual power did France retain from pre to the post war era? (This is an honest question, I don't know much about this). What else played a role in France returning to pre-war manufacturing levels by 1947?
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Rebuild Solomon's Temple. If that can't happen, nuke everyone.
It's not that complicated, people. They all follow a death cult. Jehovah is a blood-thirsty demon and will take us all down unless we bury it in the sand forever. Both sides are fools. In the end, we are all foolish. This intellectual masturbation fest is over. I provided the truth. Ignore, if you want.
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While we are bit off topic here, but I'm interested...
I'm not sure we can compare France recovering from the wars and 2-4 years of Nazi occupation (as insanely brutal as that was) to Algeria attempting to (re)form and build a state after being under French rule for 130ish years.
France was the second biggest recipient of Marshall Plan money.
France's enemy was crippled on the world stage and France had a lot of power dictating the terms of post-war Germany.
Germany paid France in industrial assets, coal, and forced labor in the post-war era.
What else played a role in the 30 glorious years post WWII?
How did France reconstruct during the 4th Republic? What themes and politicians and parties held from the 3rd to 4th Republic? What residual power did France retain from pre to the post war era? (This is an honest question, I don't know much about this). What else played a role in France returning to pre-war manufacturing levels by 1947?
Definitely off-topic and I'm not qualified enought to answer all this, so I'll point you to this book which is really an incredible read, like every book by Beevor basically.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51s5vvPJPcL._SX324_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)
Just 2 things: IMHO France did not have "a lot of power dictating the terms of post-war Germany". I've read Roosevelt barely tolerated De Gaulle sitting at the victors' table.
How did France reconstruct during the 4th Republic? What themes and politicians and parties held from the 3rd to 4th Republic?
Basically the dominating parties after the war were the ones not tainted by collaboration with the nazis and a real resistance pedigree: the communists on the left and the Gaullists on the right.
I'm not sure we can compare France recovering from the wars and 2-4 years of Nazi occupation (as insanely brutal as that was) to Algeria attempting to (re)form and build a state after being under French rule for 130ish years.
definitely hard to compare and controversial to boot, but France actually built the modern algerian infrastructure: roads, rails etc. The nazi occupation was much shorter of course.....but they just plundered and slaughtered. damn here we are turning slap into an academics cafe ha!
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Ethno-nationalism is a bad idea, regardless of who controls the state. A jewish state shouldn't exist anymore than a christian or islamic state. Any political entity that prioritizes one religion over another is bound to oppress.
Beyond that, Israel supports illegal settlement and the oppression of one race over another due to religious favoritism. It's not a good idea. It's not working out for the majority. At one time they may not have been the aggressor, but they certainly are now. Bulldozing over peaceful protestors, shooting kids and medics, the list goes on. Any justification for this is sheer entitlement and ego that's putting one religious group over another.
I totally agree with you in theory , but you do realize all arab states are islamic states? Governed by islamic law. To give you an exemple, the inheritance laws: women get half of what men get, still today. I think Tunisia is the only arab state that instituted equality for that, in 2017.
What's your point? Whataboutism?
What does this have to do with Israel? Where did I ever say those Islamic states are somehow a good thing either? I didn't. Stop deflecting.
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Israel is a National Socialist State. People don't like to hear that but it is. France is pretty close to one now.
did you see how fast macron swooped in after the beirut explosion to promote regime change? scumbag cynical shit...
FUCK OFF FRANCE
FUCK OFF ISRAEL
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I don't have answers for those questions, man. I won't pretend I do. But if, as you say, you hold France accountable for what happens in Algeria today, then should we hold Turkey responsable for what happens in Greece? After 500 years of Ottoman rule? If there is no "statute of limitations", there's just no end to the blame game. I know a lot of people who think Spain's conquistadors were plain evil, but then should we blame the 700 years of arab occupation for turning Spain into an agressive and militarized society?
What I've been saying from the beginning is that the idea of colonialism being a western concept is just false. It's a human concept.
Half paying attention to this thread but...
Algeria's independence was less than 60 years ago compared to the First Hellenic Republic coming about 200 years ago. The timing here is all the more important when we consider global growth in wealth prior to the 1800s was minimal and it exploded after that (thanks industrial revolution).
Second, its not like the French left Algeria in a great financial situation. Having to fight for independence wrecked the economy and the settlers sabotaged quite a bit of the machinery on their way out. And that the Evian Agreement was never going to hold as it gave the French far too much (especially in relation to oil). The Evian Agreement was no Marshall Plan.
Third, it ignores the political vacuum that existed after the war.
This isn't to put all the blame on the French (obv. the French can't be blamed for drops in oil prices, which the economy relies on heavily), but I sometimes feel it is hard to bark at a country, "So what if we screwed you over. You should have done better picking up the pieces of your shattered economy and fractured political landscape."
Also, it would be interesting to compare which former French colonies boomed in their independence and which ones struggled and what the differences were in terms of gaining independence, natural resources, education at the time of independence, percent of country owned by local bus/gov rather than foreign bus/gov, political leadership, and so on.
The only one that comes to mind is Canada/Quebec, and probably that's thanks to the British. The rest were savage before the French arrived and returned to savagery after they left.
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I find it kind of intellectually slippery that the only thing frenchie ever seems to agree with the rest of us is that Israel has a right to exist but is never willing to extend that to the Palestinians. And you also said that you are not here to defend the French government but reading through all the points that you made, they all defend French colonialism or deflect to Turkish colonialism. Do you support a two state compromise between the Israel and Palestine or are you only willing to recognize the Israeli claim to land as legitimate.
Also the Kurdish state also deserves to exist and a lot of people were making a ton of noise about the kurds being back stabbed by us when the turks attacked them in Syria a year or two ago
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every time israel accelerates the genocide of palestine i bump that image - any questions?
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I’m currently in the middle of immigrating to Israel from Chicago with my fiancé who already lived here.
As a Mexican American non Jew, as far as I can tell I’m moving to a country that isn’t perfect, but I’ll be leaving behind one that is easily worse when it comes to heinous acts of war and the treatment of it’s minorities despite some of us being indigenous to what was America before it even became “America” and others being unwillingly brought there. The hypocrisy of some Americans just baffles me.
I arrived just a few days ago and already have been going to the shelter daily(or nightly) as we continue to get hit with rocket fire, it’s a new experience to me but the normal life for your average civilians here.
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Stay safe, Concerned_Skater. Wishing you the best.
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You're accusing Israel of "genocide" while calling for its own death? Aware of the irony?
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Stay safe, Concerned_Skater. Wishing you the best.
Thanks Ed, I’ll try!
Also at least I knew what I was potentially getting myself into with each visit, but what breaks my heart is sharing the bomb shelter with frightened children from the same apartment building who were just born into this conflict without a choice.
It’s not easy for either side honestly as both experience tragic events and loss of loved ones, and I wish people would see that besides just simply wishing death upon one another like the posters above have shown.
You can believe and support either side or perhaps even support both sides towards reaching peace, but when you push such a barbaric, for the lack of a better word solution, you’re only part of the problem because you’re just spreading more hatred.
Sorry for the rant... Thanks again Ed, hope you’ve been doing well yourself!
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No questions, I just didn't understand the basis behind it. Thanks for clarifying
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As a Mexican American non Jew, as far as I can tell I’m moving to a country that isn’t perfect, but I’ll be leaving behind one that is easily worse when it comes to heinous acts of war and the treatment of it’s minorities despite some of us being indigenous to what was America before it even became “America” and others being unwillingly brought there. The hypocrisy of some Americans just baffles me.
it's interesting to see folks trying to defend modern colonialism. i'm guessing you also feel the germans should keep quit about genocide.
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As a Mexican American non Jew, as far as I can tell I’m moving to a country that isn’t perfect, but I’ll be leaving behind one that is easily worse when it comes to heinous acts of war and the treatment of it’s minorities despite some of us being indigenous to what was America before it even became “America” and others being unwillingly brought there. The hypocrisy of some Americans just baffles me.
it's interesting to see folks trying to defend modern colonialism. i'm guessing you also feel the germans should keep quit about genocide.
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I’m currently in the middle of immigrating to Israel from Chicago with my fiancé who already lived here.
As a Mexican American non Jew, as far as I can tell I’m moving to a country that isn’t perfect, but I’ll be leaving behind one that is easily worse when it comes to heinous acts of war and the treatment of it’s minorities despite some of us being indigenous to what was America before it even became “America” and others being unwillingly brought there. The hypocrisy of some Americans just baffles me.
I arrived just a few days ago and already have been going to the shelter daily(or nightly) as we continue to get hit with rocket fire, it’s a new experience to me but the normal life for your average civilians here.
I gotta say, immigrating to Israel seems like one of the dumbest things you could do. Why not the India/Pakistan border?
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I don't get Israel's attempt to overrun the Palestinians... how can the (formerly secular) Jewish state attempt to just destroy another people?
I don't understand how a state with many people who have been mistreated throughout history can celebrate far-right actions that decimate another group of people. Like, after looking at the first Jewish ghettos (thought up by the Italians) to the extreme actions by the Nazis, how does one say, "It is ok to do terrible shit to another group of people based on [insert any excuse]"
I understand it is way more complicated than this, but fucking hell, what assholes post-WWII didn't see this coming? What happened at those meetings that allowed this problem to even come about? Why wasn't everything set in stone right away? Which post-war victor was in charge of this mess?
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This whole process started long before WW2.
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This whole process started long before WW2.
I’ve been dreading posting in here but I’ve felt that I should at least chime in here.
Arguably, it goes back to the destruction of the second temple. In the Babylonian Talmud, specifically tractate ketubot (111a I believe, I haven’t studied the bavli Talmud in a few years) it was said that upon our exile there were three oaths were exchanged between us (Jews) and HaShem (god). Two oaths pertained to us, Jews (or nations acting on our behalf) can not take back the land of eretz yisrael by force and in turn massively immigrate to it, or make aliyah(return) or rebel against the other nations of the world. The other oath was to the nations of the world not to subjugate the Jews, but we see how that shit turned out. Up until the Shoah, within the orthodox world, these words were considered law. Now, out of the Jewish world it is only the Haredim that hold these views. The majority of the Orthodox world was opposed to Zionism because they felt that it was a cop out, a circumvention of the three oaths that were exchanged, and a means of destroying the religious portion of being Jewish and exchanging them for use as a political point.
However, in verifiable and legitimate history, it goes back to the Balfour declaration which coincides with the British declaring war in the Ottoman Empire in 1914.
Sources: me, the bavli Talmud, and VaYoel Moshe by the Satmar Rav, Yoel Teitelbaum.
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I don't get Israel's attempt to overrun the Palestinians... how can the (formerly secular) Jewish state attempt to just destroy another people?
I don't understand how a state with many people who have been mistreated throughout history can celebrate far-right actions that decimate another group of people. Like, after looking at the first Jewish ghettos (thought up by the Italians) to the extreme actions by the Nazis, how does one say, "It is ok to do terrible shit to another group of people based on [insert any excuse]"
I understand it is way more complicated than this, but fucking hell, what assholes post-WWII didn't see this coming? What happened at those meetings that allowed this problem to even come about? Why wasn't everything set in stone right away? Which post-war victor was in charge of this mess?
It's dumbfounding isn't it. I don't think we can really get around the fact that some (integral parts) of Israeli government operate on the idea of being chosen. It's something one is implored to tiptoe around for obvious reasons, but there is entitlement there.
'Even' Hannah Arendt, who was famously critical of Zionism, wrestled with the idea of Israel, writing: "A people can be a minority somewhere only if they are a majority elsewhere". It's difficult to imagine that elsewhere being somewhere else.
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This whole process started long before WW2.
I’ve been dreading posting in here but I’ve felt that I should at least chime in here.
Arguably, it goes back to the destruction of the second temple. In the Babylonian Talmud, specifically tractate ketubot (111a I believe, I haven’t studied the bavli Talmud in a few years) it was said that upon our exile there were three oaths were exchanged between us (Jews) and HaShem (god). Two oaths pertained to us, Jews (or nations acting on our behalf) can not take back the land of eretz yisrael by force and in turn massively immigrate to it, or make aliyah(return) or rebel against the other nations of the world. The other oath was to the nations of the world not to subjugate the Jews, but we see how that shit turned out. Up until the Shoah, within the orthodox world, these words were considered law. Now, out of the Jewish world it is only the Haredim that hold these views. The majority of the Orthodox world was opposed to Zionism because they felt that it was a cop out, a circumvention of the three oaths that were exchanged, and a means of destroying the religious portion of being Jewish and exchanging them for use as a political point.
However, in verifiable and legitimate history, it goes back to the Balfour declaration which coincides with the British declaring war in the Ottoman Empire in 1914.
Sources: me, the bavli Talmud, and VaYoel Moshe by the Satmar Rav, Yoel Teitelbaum.
Is the operative word here "was"? The only orthodox folks I have met, a handful of folks in their early 30s, have been hard-line Zionists.
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(https://i.ibb.co/XYfdF7b/E1-Su-V7m-Uc-AMvs3z.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FHkf85K)
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Part of the issue is not complicated: Palestine definitely deserves its land back but the answer is definitely complicated: You can’t just ask the Israelis to go somewhere else, or ask them to live under an Arab government that won’t allow them religious freedom, or kill them all.
Israel definitely needs to chill with its response but they are also being bombed (I know not nearly as hard) and they will never agree to live together so I don’t really know how the issue will be solved.
Both sides believe in a religion that tells them they are the rightful owners to Jerusalem. And that is coming from God so no one on earth can tell them otherwise. Really the only way I can see to solve it, is if both sides just gave up their religion. Seriously they just hate each other because one group thinks the messiah will come from Ismail and the other thinks it’s Isaac. Apart from that I’m sure people on both sides probably have similar interests and would get along in a vacuum.
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Nope
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Part of the issue is not complicated: Palestine definitely deserves its land back but the answer is definitely complicated: You can’t just ask the Israelis to go somewhere else, or ask them to live under an Arab government that won’t allow them religious freedom, or kill them all.
Israel definitely needs to chill with its response but they are also being bombed (I know not nearly as hard) and they will never agree to live together so I don’t really know how the issue will be solved.
Both sides believe in a religion that tells them they are the rightful owners to Jerusalem. And that is coming from God so no one on earth can tell them otherwise. Really the only way I can see to solve it, is if both sides just gave up their religion. Seriously they just hate each other because one group thinks the messiah will come from Ismail and the other thinks it’s Isaac. Apart from that I’m sure people on both sides probably have similar interests and would get along in a vacuum.
Israel quite literally maintains all of the power -economically, politically, militarily- and it is grossly unfair to point at Palestinian people as being opposed to 'peace' or a 'solution'. If the statesmen+women of Israel wanted this 'conflict' to end, they are the only ones that could make that happen, but that would mean granting full human rights, safety and equality to a population of people that has been nothing but dehumanized and demonized since before the inception of Israel.
The conflict pouring into various medias is a culmination of the 73 years of oppression that Palestinians have faced, that originally stemmed from ethnic cleansing and has continued as a slow genocide since. I'll point you towards the Irgun paramilitary group, and you can go from there: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun
The dynamic is a result settler-colonization, and not one rooted in religion. Every struggle the Palestinian peoples have and currently face, is the same struggle of Indigenous populations around the world. It is all connected.
You cannot expect to continually back an animal into a corner and not have it react violently when it has no other options for dignity or survival.
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Part of the issue is not complicated: Palestine definitely deserves its land back but the answer is definitely complicated: You can’t just ask the Israelis to go somewhere else, or ask them to live under an Arab government that won’t allow them religious freedom, or kill them all.
Israel definitely needs to chill with its response but they are also being bombed (I know not nearly as hard) and they will never agree to live together so I don’t really know how the issue will be solved.
Both sides believe in a religion that tells them they are the rightful owners to Jerusalem. And that is coming from God so no one on earth can tell them otherwise. Really the only way I can see to solve it, is if both sides just gave up their religion. Seriously they just hate each other because one group thinks the messiah will come from Ismail and the other thinks it’s Isaac. Apart from that I’m sure people on both sides probably have similar interests and would get along in a vacuum.
Israel quite literally maintains all of the power -economically, politically, militarily- and it is grossly unfair to point at Palestinian people as being opposed to 'peace' or a 'solution'. If the statesmen+women of Israel wanted this 'conflict' to end, they are the only ones that could make that happen, but that would mean granting full human rights, safety and equality to a population of people that has been nothing but dehumanized and demonized since before the inception of Israel.
The conflict pouring into various medias is a culmination of the 73 years of oppression that Palestinians have faced, that originally stemmed from ethnic cleansing and has continued as a slow genocide since. I'll point you towards the Irgun paramilitary group, and you can go from there: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun
The dynamic is a result settler-colonization, and not one rooted in religion. Every struggle the Palestinian peoples have and currently face, is the same struggle of Indigenous populations around the world. It is all connected.
You cannot expect to continually back an animal into a corner and not have it react violently when it has no other options for dignity or survival.
I certainly agree that Israel holds the power and is the aggressor. I am not trying to say Israel has a right to the land. I didn’t mean to imply otherwise. I was just trying to say that it is a complex issue to resolve. It’s not as easy as both sides agreeing to live together because they both hold religious beliefs that would not allow them to live under the other sides government or a secular government or agree to leave their perceived Holy Land. Israel is doing absolutely atrocious things and they are in the wrong. It would be great if Israel could be dissolved peacefully but it just can’t be.
Edit: I also don’t mean to imply that they shouldn't attempt to resolve the issue. The only point I wanted to make is both sides believe so strongly in their side that resolving it will be difficult. That doesn’t mean I think their way of thinking is justified.
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Part of the issue is not complicated: Palestine definitely deserves its land back but the answer is definitely complicated: You can’t just ask the Israelis to go somewhere else, or ask them to live under an Arab government that won’t allow them religious freedom, or kill them all.
Israel definitely needs to chill with its response but they are also being bombed (I know not nearly as hard) and they will never agree to live together so I don’t really know how the issue will be solved.
Both sides believe in a religion that tells them they are the rightful owners to Jerusalem. And that is coming from God so no one on earth can tell them otherwise. Really the only way I can see to solve it, is if both sides just gave up their religion. Seriously they just hate each other because one group thinks the messiah will come from Ismail and the other thinks it’s Isaac. Apart from that I’m sure people on both sides probably have similar interests and would get along in a vacuum.
Israel quite literally maintains all of the power -economically, politically, militarily- and it is grossly unfair to point at Palestinian people as being opposed to 'peace' or a 'solution'. If the statesmen+women of Israel wanted this 'conflict' to end, they are the only ones that could make that happen, but that would mean granting full human rights, safety and equality to a population of people that has been nothing but dehumanized and demonized since before the inception of Israel.
The conflict pouring into various medias is a culmination of the 73 years of oppression that Palestinians have faced, that originally stemmed from ethnic cleansing and has continued as a slow genocide since. I'll point you towards the Irgun paramilitary group, and you can go from there: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun
The dynamic is a result settler-colonization, and not one rooted in religion. Every struggle the Palestinian peoples have and currently face, is the same struggle of Indigenous populations around the world. It is all connected.
You cannot expect to continually back an animal into a corner and not have it react violently when it has no other options for dignity or survival.
I certainly agree that Israel holds the power and is the aggressor. I am not trying to say Israel has a right to the land. I didn’t mean to imply otherwise. I was just trying to say that it is a complex issue to resolve. It’s not as easy as both sides agreeing to live together because they both hold religious beliefs that would not allow them to live under the other sides government or a secular government or agree to leave their perceived Holy Land. Israel is doing absolutely atrocious things and they are in the wrong. It would be great if Israel could be dissolved peacefully but it just can’t be.
It's also difficult to conceive of a resolution without a drastic shift in American politics. Even if Israel's electorate makes a sudden and lasting shift to the left, so long as the billions keep pouring in from across the Atlantic the power imbalance will remain.
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the part that isn't complex is that we shouldn't get involved or have to become experts on all this religious non-sense. it's modern colonialism, plain and simple. you could take religion out of it and they'd still be fighting because there not enough land to go around. we are getting drug into this because the evangelicals are fucking weirdos who want the end of the world to come about. every time this issue comes up i feel like al jourgenson had the right idea @6:42 in this song
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A44KkEHYsdQ
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Part of the issue is not complicated: Palestine definitely deserves its land back but the answer is definitely complicated: You can’t just ask the Israelis to go somewhere else, or ask them to live under an Arab government that won’t allow them religious freedom, or kill them all.
Israel definitely needs to chill with its response but they are also being bombed (I know not nearly as hard) and they will never agree to live together so I don’t really know how the issue will be solved.
Both sides believe in a religion that tells them they are the rightful owners to Jerusalem. And that is coming from God so no one on earth can tell them otherwise. Really the only way I can see to solve it, is if both sides just gave up their religion. Seriously they just hate each other because one group thinks the messiah will come from Ismail and the other thinks it’s Isaac. Apart from that I’m sure people on both sides probably have similar interests and would get along in a vacuum.
out of the litany of economic and social factors you can use to actually explain the conflict you decide to blame religion- something i’m sure both sides are utilizing to cope in an incredibly stressful time (regardless of who you think is right). idk what else to say besides i hope your CTE symptoms are manageable
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Part of the issue is not complicated: Palestine definitely deserves its land back but the answer is definitely complicated: You can’t just ask the Israelis to go somewhere else, or ask them to live under an Arab government that won’t allow them religious freedom, or kill them all.
Israel definitely needs to chill with its response but they are also being bombed (I know not nearly as hard) and they will never agree to live together so I don’t really know how the issue will be solved.
Both sides believe in a religion that tells them they are the rightful owners to Jerusalem. And that is coming from God so no one on earth can tell them otherwise. Really the only way I can see to solve it, is if both sides just gave up their religion. Seriously they just hate each other because one group thinks the messiah will come from Ismail and the other thinks it’s Isaac. Apart from that I’m sure people on both sides probably have similar interests and would get along in a vacuum.
out of the litany of economic and social factors you can use to actually explain the conflict you decide to blame religion- something i’m sure both sides are utilizing to cope in an incredibly stressful time (regardless of who you think is right). idk what else to say besides i hope your CTE symptoms are manageable
Definitely economic influences and US financial/military aid are also complicating the issue. I agree Israel is wrong and the reason they are in power is because of western aid that would never be extended to the Palestinians which makes this a massively unfair fight but both parties have religious ties to the land and Americans religious beliefs are being used boost right wing support for Israel. Whether the root problem is economic interest or not, religion is a massive part of the argument that can’t be pushed aside. It’s the whole reason they chose that spot even though it was already occupied. Even if religion was just being used as a farce to get a democratic foothold in the region, it is still the medium being used to hype everyone up. Some Jewish people believe that Israel is unjust because they shouldn’t live on the land until the messiah comes but others are willing to fight to the death in order to keep control. Zionist ideology mixed with state of the art military equipment plus being in the wrong is what makes it complicated. Religion gives people hope of an afterlife and often a reason to be nice to others but in this case, it is giving Israel a reason to justify its actions to kill innocent people.
The only point I wanted to make is that the issue is indeed complicated however you look at it. If I could push a button to go back to pre-1947 Palestine, I would but even if the west pulls out, it’s still going to be a bloody, terrible, long lasting battle. Yes it is simple that Israel is attacking with massively unfair artillery and should be held accountable but the issue itself has a ton of different players and interests that will make solving the issue and holding Israel accountable extremely complex.
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Lets not forget about the stuxnet virus the IDF released into the wild to hack Irans energy infrastructure ...all because of self defense. Now guess what hackers are going after now globally
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I'm glad that we're finally getting some firm opposition to the numerous crimes the idf commits in this thread after pages of war crimes apologia by frenchie. Israel is not a chosen master race thanks to the Bible, they are people committing blatant genocide against the Palestinians
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I am definitely an outsider in that situation and I can only speak, how that conflict takes over to the rest of the world. Of course I have no idea how it is to live in Israel or Palestine and no one is in the position to decide, who should live where.
I live in Berlin, Germany and we have a big arab/turkish population in most big cities. Tomorrow will be another anti-semitic demonstrations everywhere. Some Israel flags already were set on fire in the last few days and police here now protects jewish buildings.
I have one jewish friend, a really cute, shy and scared girl. It is terrible for her in Germany. Arabs seem to hate her and Nazis hate her too.
I couldn't contribute anything useful here, but I think it is horrible how people living here, far away from the middle east, also try to spread the hatred.
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I cant even with this fucking thread.
Some of the kookery here is just replicated from the bullshit from the vaccine thread.
Get fucked Frenchie.
Free Palestine. Get vaccinated.
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If only Bokononism would take hold of this godforsaken speck of ours.
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I know I’m gonna look dumb as fuck for asking this, but someone give me a general rundown of what the core of the conflict is between Israel and Palestine is? From what I gather, it’s rooted in religion, but you guys started talking about economics, World War 2, Karl Marx, France, and U.S. involvement (per usual) and I was completely out of the loop the whole time.
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I cant even with this fucking thread.
Some of the kookery here is just replicated from the bullshit from the vaccine thread.
Get fucked Frenchie.
Free Palestine. Get vaccinated.
Don't worry, it's all bobby puleo sock puppet accounts. We're the only two real users.
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No state has the right to exist. It is not a concept understood in international law. But people do have the right to exist.
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I know I’m gonna look dumb as fuck for asking this, but someone give me a general rundown of what the core of the conflict is between Israel and Palestine is? From what I gather, it’s rooted in religion, but you guys started talking about economics, World War 2, Karl Marx, France, and U.S. involvement (per usual) and I was completely out of the loop the whole time.
pretty concise summary: https://www.history.com/topics/middle-east/palestine
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I know I’m gonna look dumb as fuck for asking this, but someone give me a general rundown of what the core of the conflict is between Israel and Palestine is? From what I gather, it’s rooted in religion, but you guys started talking about economics, World War 2, Karl Marx, France, and U.S. involvement (per usual) and I was completely out of the loop the whole time.
it's the fucking fault of the british, google capitalism and imperialism
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Been pretty tempted to focus because of this thread.
ayyyye. stay with us hombre. ;)
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I know I’m gonna look dumb as fuck for asking this, but someone give me a general rundown of what the core of the conflict is between Israel and Palestine is? From what I gather, it’s rooted in religion, but you guys started talking about economics, World War 2, Karl Marx, France, and U.S. involvement (per usual) and I was completely out of the loop the whole time.
pretty concise summary: https://www.history.com/topics/middle-east/palestine
I can see why people would have their own opinions on the matter, even if it’s not really their business or problem. But why on Earth does the U.S. government think it’s okay to stick their nose in while representing the entire country? It’s one thing to involve yourself, but it’s another thing to involve yourself and say you represent 300 million people, most of which would disagree with what you’re doing.
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I know I’m gonna look dumb as fuck for asking this, but someone give me a general rundown of what the core of the conflict is between Israel and Palestine is? From what I gather, it’s rooted in religion, but you guys started talking about economics, World War 2, Karl Marx, France, and U.S. involvement (per usual) and I was completely out of the loop the whole time.
it's the fucking fault of the british, oil and gas capitalism and imperialism
Invested British and US interest in Oil in the Middle east, IDF forces funded by USA, Bush hooks them up, then OBAMA gives the IDF a steroid shot, and Trump the gas on the fire... Voila
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No state has the right to exist. It is not a concept understood in international law. But people do have the right to exist.
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I know I’m gonna look dumb as fuck for asking this, but someone give me a general rundown of what the core of the conflict is between Israel and Palestine is? From what I gather, it’s rooted in religion, but you guys started talking about economics, World War 2, Karl Marx, France, and U.S. involvement (per usual) and I was completely out of the loop the whole time.
pretty concise summary: https://www.history.com/topics/middle-east/palestine
Dude that is all the US has done the past 75 years or so since WWII. Increase the world's suffering through imperial foreign policy
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OP asks "wHy coLoniZatiOn baD tHinG? wHy maN cAn nOt MakE eThnIc cLeanSing? mAn kIll bRoWn mEn, wHy nOT gOoD thiNg?"
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Typed maybe two pages, though about it and noped
But I wish all in the area the all best, dreadful situation
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Been pretty tempted to focus because of this thread.
ayyyye. stay with us hombre. ;)
I'll say it was refreshing to read thoughtful discussion here before the turn this thread took after Israel's recent aggression. People were sharing history, viewpoints, context, and real lived experiences. I agree with scorpion dude in that what was missing was a real Palestinain perspective in this discussion. I don't agree with the reductive argument that this issue is not complicated.
What's plain as day is that the power imbalance and heinous military occupation needs to end. There's no excuse or defense for it that can ever merit recognition, especially when you consider which side has the military/financial resources and support from major global powers. It is disgusting colonialism and pushing the conflict even further in the direction of war.. the retaliation of Palestinian people in reaction to it is absolutely justified (imo) as a means of self preservation to combat an oppressive force.
That doesn't mean there isn't a deeply complex history and current sociopolitical situation that makes any actual solution here (with regards to preventing future violence and conflicts) very difficult to achieve. Those of you posting memes should share some actual ideas rather than repoating images that say "Fuck Israel." It just comes off like you don't want to really engage with the issue beyond taking what is ultimately passive stance. Post a pic and be done thinkin bout it.
BTW, condemning Israel's actions here does not make you an antisemite, and it is not antisemitism to say "Fuck Israel" for its actions. Because really, fuck Israel for what is happening. But also, fuck the idiots here who took an actual discussion and turned it into yelling.
Edit: sorry, but the slactivism gets to me.
Edit edit: OP actually wrote in one of his posts that he supports a 2 state solution. As I read, I found many of the questions and arguments he put forward were unhelpful, misguided, and even off topic or contradictory, but I definitely think this (2 states) should be the goal. That is simple for me to see. What isn't is how to get there without bloodshed now or preventing future complications. Just so, so stupid to call this simple imo.
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For those of means to, here's a few charities you can consider supporting
Doctors Without Borders (https://donate.doctorswithoutborders.org/onetime.cfm)
Medical Aid for Palestine (MAP) (https://www.map.org.uk/donate/donate)
The Palestine Children's Relief Fund (https://pcrf1.z2systems.com/np/clients/pcrf1/donation.jsp?campaign=342&)
ANERA (https://support.anera.org/a/donate)
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https://www.vox.com/world/2021/5/15/22436068/israel-violence-lod-bat-yam-jerusalem-lynching-arab-jewish-palestinian
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cmon son you can’t bomb the associated press
get these bozos outta here
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Pretty revealing when posters are not capable or willing to argue against the politics of a government of a country but against the country itself.
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that statement is meaningless without context
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Why the fuck are all you useless fucks applauding each other for such a level headed, gentlemanly conduct whilst children are being murdered by Israeli fascists? Apartheid is happening in Israel rn and it is disgusting.
Invoking antisemitism as some kind of defense for apartheid and genocide is totally pathetic and evil.
Netanyahu is a piece of shit.
Fear does funny things to people.
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Why the fuck are all you useless fucks applauding each other for such a level headed, gentlemanly conduct whilst children are being murdered by Israeli fascists? Apartheid is happening in Israel rn and it is disgusting.
Invoking antisemitism as some kind of defense for apartheid and genocide is totally pathetic and evil.
Netanyahu is a piece of shit.
Fear does funny things to people.
Because OP actually seemed to learn something and change his views somewhat after people came answering his question with information and empathy. Allowed OP to put himself in a vulnerable position and grow. OP is not the Israeli military or Netanyahu, at least I don't think he is... so save the criticism for the actual culprits of the crime and support another person in understanding what's really good.
And I completely get being outraged, because I'm outraged too. But here, we're not at a protest. Here, we had people trying to understand and explain why it's "Fuck Israel," or to be more specific, fuck the Israeli government and far right. And it was kinda going somewhere.
It's so cool to just say it over and over. Fuck Israel. Free Palestine. Yes, and yes. The persecution needs to end and Israel needs to be held accountable as a nation. It's especially tempting to scream it from the mountaintops when Israel pushes it further like they just did. But in a discussion where the other side is actually receptive to ideas, we gotta do a bit more. It doesn't happen very often, especially not on the fuckin internet, and especially not fuckin here.
People don't respond well to "Death to you/fuck you" as a response to their questions, but we all know that pretty goddamn well. To be able to reply with more than jokes or slogans in this setting shows an actual commitment to the cause, if you ask me. All that being said, I did have a laugh at some jokes about soft headlines regarding the AP building destruction, like "AP office in Gaza damaged amidst conflict between Hamas and Israel." Thankfully they actually condemned the air strike.
(https://i.imgur.com/70WMwGd_d.webp?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium)
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A more detailed first person account from an AP journalist working in the building:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/16/no-safe-place-associated-press-reporter-describes-gaza-office-attack
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Israel...I don't know much, the little I know I concluded it's A) an Apartheid state...
B) I know they got an iron dome protecting the Holy Land, bomb shelters just in case, and 18 year old boys in the militay with machine guns patrolling the streets...
C) Holy Land more like a Human Meat Grinder Land in my opinion since the early times
I was reading this the other day...the more I learn, the less the less I believe
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/jun/12/what-does-it-mean-to-be-genetically-jewish
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xl6r3ZeGbN4
Edit: Thank you for coming to my Talk, i contributed zero to this discussion. :P
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They actually have 3 defense systems
https://youtu.be/MlhWNavyXWY
Expect stock in Raytheon to go up...
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They actually have 3 defense systems
https://youtu.be/MlhWNavyXWY
Expect stock in Raytheon to go up...
Good fucking Jesus/ Yahweh/ Allah,
Their mid-range defense system is called ‘David’s Sling’? Orwellian doublespeak is real.
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This whole process started long before WW2.
I’ve been dreading posting in here but I’ve felt that I should at least chime in here.
Arguably, it goes back to the destruction of the second temple. In the Babylonian Talmud, specifically tractate ketubot (111a I believe, I haven’t studied the bavli Talmud in a few years) it was said that upon our exile there were three oaths were exchanged between us (Jews) and HaShem (god). Two oaths pertained to us, Jews (or nations acting on our behalf) can not take back the land of eretz yisrael by force and in turn massively immigrate to it, or make aliyah(return) or rebel against the other nations of the world. The other oath was to the nations of the world not to subjugate the Jews, but we see how that shit turned out. Up until the Shoah, within the orthodox world, these words were considered law. Now, out of the Jewish world it is only the Haredim that hold these views. The majority of the Orthodox world was opposed to Zionism because they felt that it was a cop out, a circumvention of the three oaths that were exchanged, and a means of destroying the religious portion of being Jewish and exchanging them for use as a political point.
However, in verifiable and legitimate history, it goes back to the Balfour declaration which coincides with the British declaring war in the Ottoman Empire in 1914.
Sources: me, the bavli Talmud, and VaYoel Moshe by the Satmar Rav, Yoel Teitelbaum.
I wasn't going quite that far back. Just 'ol Theodore Herzl and the advent of modern zionism.
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They actually have 3 defense systems
https://youtu.be/MlhWNavyXWY
Expect stock in Raytheon to go up...
Good fucking Jesus/ Yahweh/ Allah,
Their mid-range defense system is called ‘David’s Sling’? Orwellian doublespeak is real.
(https://i.imgur.com/RIIc1TM.jpg)
Religion is a helluva drug.
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I have said this before, and I will say it again.
Israel is a sate, you can criticize a state for its actions, and it is not racist or anti Semitic.
Jews are a people, you can criticize an individual for their actions and it is not racist or anti Semitic.
you can't criticize Jews for being Jews, that is anti Semitic
criticizing Israel for is atrocious actions towards Palestine and the Arab world is not anti Semitic
Maybe is Christians, Jews and Muslims stopped basing their existence made up stories we could find some peace.
The Jews are treating the Arab Muslims like a lesser people, just like the Jews were being treated in the 19th and 20th century.
bibi is a war criminal and this latest "escalation" is just a way to garner support because he can't win a majority and he can't form a minority government.
money, power, oil and religion.
that said, fuck Israel, no the people, they are to be judge by their individual actions
whoops, i forgot to say fuck the military industrial complex and the lobbying that keeps the entire world at war.
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I have said this before, and I will say it again.
Israel is a sate, you can criticize a state for its actions, and it is not racist or anti Semitic.
Jews are a people, you can criticize an individual for their actions and it is not racist or anti Semitic.
you can't criticize Jews for being Jews, that is anti Semitic
criticizing Israel for is atrocious actions towards Palestine and the Arab world is not anti Semitic
Maybe is Christians, Jews and Muslims stopped basing their existence made up stories we could find some peace.
The Jews are treating the Arab Muslims like a lesser people, just like the Jews were being treated in the 19th and 20th century.
bibi is a war criminal and this latest "escalation" is just a way to garner support because he can't win a majority and he can't form a minority government.
money, power, oil and religion.
that said, fuck Israel, no the people, they are to be judge by their individual actions
whoops, i forgot to say fuck the military industrial complex and the lobbying that keeps the entire world at war.
fuck the CIA too. one of the most evil entities on the planet.
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"Beer in hand, sun lotion on face, we ran...It’s [Tel Aviv] a kind of an escape...Four days ago, the city was normal and hopping...There’s been a change since the rockets fell...”
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/16/world/middleeast/israel-tel-aviv.html?action=click&module=Spotlight&pgtype=Homepage
all of Israel is accountable, and i don't want to see anyone get hurt, but while these things are going on, it's impossible to feel bad about the "hedonistic" beach party being interrupted...
i am sickened by the shameless and murderous depths of violence and depravity into which Israel has allowed the Zionist impulse to drag it...
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For those of means to, here's a few charities you can consider supporting
Doctors Without Borders (https://donate.doctorswithoutborders.org/onetime.cfm)
Medical Aid for Palestine (MAP) (https://www.map.org.uk/donate/donate)
The Palestine Children's Relief Fund (https://pcrf1.z2systems.com/np/clients/pcrf1/donation.jsp?campaign=342&)
ANERA (https://support.anera.org/a/donate)
Yeah word msf do some good shit
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"Beer in hand, sun lotion on face, we ran...It’s [Tel Aviv] a kind of an escape...Four days ago, the city was normal and hopping...There’s been a change since the rockets fell...”
it's impossible to feel bad about the "hedonistic" beach party being interrupted...
Hope that you feel at least bad that in Gaza under Hamas rule there will never be allowed 'hedonistic' beach parties of this kind.
...
The Jews are treating the Arab Muslims like a lesser people [...]
...
Collectively blaming 'the jews'? -Text-book antisemitism.
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"Beer in hand, sun lotion on face, we ran...It’s [Tel Aviv] a kind of an escape...Four days ago, the city was normal and hopping...There’s been a change since the rockets fell...”
it's impossible to feel bad about the "hedonistic" beach party being interrupted...
Hope that you feel at least bad that in Gaza under Hamas rule there will never be allowed 'hedonistic' beach parties of this kind.
great point, better slaughter them indiscriminately
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"Beer in hand, sun lotion on face, we ran...It’s [Tel Aviv] a kind of an escape...Four days ago, the city was normal and hopping...There’s been a change since the rockets fell...”
it's impossible to feel bad about the "hedonistic" beach party being interrupted...
Hope that you feel at least bad that in Gaza under Hamas rule there will never be allowed 'hedonistic' beach parties of this kind.
great point, better slaughter them indiscriminately
Right... also, Hamas control in Palestine was a response to Israeli violence and illegal expansion, was it not? We have a displaced people fighting for their right to exist in a place that they have lived for ages. I know this was/is the Zionist perspective as well... but the situation is not the same anymore. Not in today's context. Israel exists and has major support (for some pretty dubious reasons, I should add). Palestine is more or less unrecognized and being swallowed up, yet are called terrorists for fighting back. And the Palestinians are only fighting for a tiny sliver, a fraction of what was designated for the early two state plan.
Also, important time to point out that not all Palestinians align themselves with Hamas, or are even Muslim... for this reason it is not helpful to frame it as Hamas vs Israel imo.
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"Beer in hand, sun lotion on face, we ran...It’s [Tel Aviv] a kind of an escape...Four days ago, the city was normal and hopping...There’s been a change since the rockets fell...”
it's impossible to feel bad about the "hedonistic" beach party being interrupted...
Hope that you feel at least bad that in Gaza under Hamas rule there will never be allowed 'hedonistic' beach parties of this kind.
Expand Quote
...
The Jews are treating the Arab Muslims like a lesser people [...]
...
Collectively blaming 'the jews'? -Text-book antisemitism.
Fuck out of here with that weak shit.
Israel as a state doesn't get to slaughter and try to ethnicly cleanse Palestine just because they have the ability to have beach parties. Palestinians can't even get on a fucking row boat without the Israeli navy trying to play battleship with them. Israel gets held to a standard that no other country does. No one would ever accuse someone of being racist against the French for criticizing them about their niquab ban, but every time people rightly call out the war crimes that Israel is guilty of, then you're an anti semite. It's so cynical and disgusting
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https://youtu.be/QrFxKY6aFrQ (https://youtu.be/QrFxKY6aFrQ)
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I find it very surprising that many nations are now expressing open solidarity with Israel. I can't remember that being the case in past escalations (USA excluded)?
Also, destroying the media building is hopefully a war crime (or should be).
This mess should be exhibit A for abandoning religion across the world.
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"Beer in hand, sun lotion on face, we ran...It’s [Tel Aviv] a kind of an escape...Four days ago, the city was normal and hopping...There’s been a change since the rockets fell...”
it's impossible to feel bad about the "hedonistic" beach party being interrupted...
Hope that you feel at least bad that in Gaza under Hamas rule there will never be allowed 'hedonistic' beach parties of this kind.
Expand Quote
...
The Jews are treating the Arab Muslims like a lesser people [...]
...
Collectively blaming 'the jews'? -Text-book antisemitism.
my bad, I should have said "the Israeli government"
but, you cherry picked that from my post.
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i don't always line up with trevor noah but i like his perspective here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeZ4yXyzUG0
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Let’s be real about why this shit is happening. “Right to exist” is a convenient catch phrase, but the real reason is that the US Military needs allies and resources in the region to secure commodities like oil and minerals... and opium, in the case of Afghanistan. Oh, and also to prevent these smaller countries from thriving with assistance from rival superpowers. We could argue about the utility or the morality of these policies, but it’s all pointless if we don’t begin with a realistic understanding of the actual conditions.
Israeli “democracy” is about as legitimate as US democracy, which is to say it’s a total scam operated by ruling class interests. Recent elections show this pretty clearly. Many of the non-Jewish US politicians and right wingers who love Israel so much are actually anti-Semitic as fuck. If you personally are a Zionist for personal/religious reasons, that’s a different conversation. Geopolitics don’t care about that. It’s about cash, resources, power, etc.
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Let’s be real about why this shit is happening. “Right to exist” is a convenient catch phrase, but the real reason is that the US Military needs allies and resources in the region to secure commodities like oil and minerals... and opium, in the case of Afghanistan. Oh, and also to prevent these smaller countries from thriving with assistance from rival superpowers. We could argue about the utility or the morality of these policies, but it’s all pointless if we don’t begin with a realistic understanding of the actual conditions.
Israeli “democracy” is about as legitimate as US democracy, which is to say it’s a total scam operated by ruling class interests. Recent elections show this pretty clearly. Many of the non-Jewish US politicians and right wingers who love Israel so much are actually anti-Semitic as fuck. If you personally are a Zionist for personal/religious reasons, that’s a different conversation. Geopolitics don’t care about that. It’s about cash, resources, power, etc.
there's a lot of things about your views that i don't align with my views but focusing on your main point about it all being about money and influence is leaving out "to the US". i'm assuming that was implicit but the actual conflict over there is way more complicated than that and doesn't really care about the US interest. i'd also argue that here in the US religious interests are a big factor. religion is a crazy thing and even though these evangelicals might be anti-Semitic they like zionism because it aligns with their desire to bring about end times and judgement day.
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Let’s be real about why this shit is happening. “Right to exist” is a convenient catch phrase, but the real reason is that the US Military needs allies and resources in the region to secure commodities like oil and minerals... and opium, in the case of Afghanistan. Oh, and also to prevent these smaller countries from thriving with assistance from rival superpowers. We could argue about the utility or the morality of these policies, but it’s all pointless if we don’t begin with a realistic understanding of the actual conditions.
Israeli “democracy” is about as legitimate as US democracy, which is to say it’s a total scam operated by ruling class interests. Recent elections show this pretty clearly. Many of the non-Jewish US politicians and right wingers who love Israel so much are actually anti-Semitic as fuck. If you personally are a Zionist for personal/religious reasons, that’s a different conversation. Geopolitics don’t care about that. It’s about cash, resources, power, etc.
there's a lot of things about your views that i don't align with my views but focusing on your main point about it all being about money and influence is leaving out "to the US". i'm assuming that was implicit but the actual conflict over there is way more complicated than that and doesn't really care about the US interest. i'd also argue that here in the US religious interests are a big factor. religion is a crazy thing and even though these evangelicals might be anti-Semitic they like zionism because it aligns with their desire to bring about end times and judgement day.
This is a good read on the ultra-rights love of Israel.
https://harpers.org/archive/2016/07/my-holy-land-vacation/
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(https://i.imgur.com/CCUVecW.jpg)
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Expand Quote
Let’s be real about why this shit is happening. “Right to exist” is a convenient catch phrase, but the real reason is that the US Military needs allies and resources in the region to secure commodities like oil and minerals... and opium, in the case of Afghanistan. Oh, and also to prevent these smaller countries from thriving with assistance from rival superpowers. We could argue about the utility or the morality of these policies, but it’s all pointless if we don’t begin with a realistic understanding of the actual conditions.
Israeli “democracy” is about as legitimate as US democracy, which is to say it’s a total scam operated by ruling class interests. Recent elections show this pretty clearly. Many of the non-Jewish US politicians and right wingers who love Israel so much are actually anti-Semitic as fuck. If you personally are a Zionist for personal/religious reasons, that’s a different conversation. Geopolitics don’t care about that. It’s about cash, resources, power, etc.
there's a lot of things about your views that i don't align with my views but focusing on your main point about it all being about money and influence is leaving out "to the US". i'm assuming that was implicit but the actual conflict over there is way more complicated than that and doesn't really care about the US interest. i'd also argue that here in the US religious interests are a big factor. religion is a crazy thing and even though these evangelicals might be anti-Semitic they like zionism because it aligns with their desire to bring about end times and judgement day.
Yeah, I’m really just talking about the US here. Because without a gajillion dollars annually in US support sent to Israel, this would all look very different. To me everything else is moot.
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Let’s be real about why this shit is happening. “Right to exist” is a convenient catch phrase, but the real reason is that the US Military needs allies and resources in the region to secure commodities like oil and minerals... and opium, in the case of Afghanistan. Oh, and also to prevent these smaller countries from thriving with assistance from rival superpowers. We could argue about the utility or the morality of these policies, but it’s all pointless if we don’t begin with a realistic understanding of the actual conditions.
Israeli “democracy” is about as legitimate as US democracy, which is to say it’s a total scam operated by ruling class interests. Recent elections show this pretty clearly. Many of the non-Jewish US politicians and right wingers who love Israel so much are actually anti-Semitic as fuck. If you personally are a Zionist for personal/religious reasons, that’s a different conversation. Geopolitics don’t care about that. It’s about cash, resources, power, etc.
there's a lot of things about your views that i don't align with my views but focusing on your main point about it all being about money and influence is leaving out "to the US". i'm assuming that was implicit but the actual conflict over there is way more complicated than that and doesn't really care about the US interest. i'd also argue that here in the US religious interests are a big factor. religion is a crazy thing and even though these evangelicals might be anti-Semitic they like zionism because it aligns with their desire to bring about end times and judgement day.
this is something that I feel most people in the anti-apartheid conversation aren't getting at.
up @mj23
I think you're pretty spot on regarding the right-wingers in the States. They're waving swastika flags and arguing support for Israel as a nation. Cognitive dissonance.
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Let’s be real about why this shit is happening. “Right to exist” is a convenient catch phrase, but the real reason is that the US Military needs allies and resources in the region to secure commodities like oil and minerals... and opium, in the case of Afghanistan. Oh, and also to prevent these smaller countries from thriving with assistance from rival superpowers. We could argue about the utility or the morality of these policies, but it’s all pointless if we don’t begin with a realistic understanding of the actual conditions.
Israeli “democracy” is about as legitimate as US democracy, which is to say it’s a total scam operated by ruling class interests. Recent elections show this pretty clearly. Many of the non-Jewish US politicians and right wingers who love Israel so much are actually anti-Semitic as fuck. If you personally are a Zionist for personal/religious reasons, that’s a different conversation. Geopolitics don’t care about that. It’s about cash, resources, power, etc.
there's a lot of things about your views that i don't align with my views but focusing on your main point about it all being about money and influence is leaving out "to the US". i'm assuming that was implicit but the actual conflict over there is way more complicated than that and doesn't really care about the US interest. i'd also argue that here in the US religious interests are a big factor. religion is a crazy thing and even though these evangelicals might be anti-Semitic they like zionism because it aligns with their desire to bring about end times and judgement day.
this is something that I feel most people in the anti-apartheid conversation aren't getting at.
up @mj23
I think you're pretty spot on regarding the right-wingers in the States. They're waving swastika flags and arguing support for Israel as a nation. Cognitive dissonance.
Not that I am going to defend the Right in any way, shape, or form, but the argument of the neo-folk and other WP movements is that ultimately countries have sovereignty and all races should have their own carved out places and live adjacent to each other peacefully. They'd want all Jews shipped from America to Israel.
This is basically a recruiting technique to demonstrate there is simply a "kinder, gentler" form of fascism. Nice clean cut boys in suits like Richard Spencer.
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This is not cool.
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You guys know a lot
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I know I’m gonna look dumb as fuck for asking this, but someone give me a general rundown of what the core of the conflict is between Israel and Palestine is? From what I gather, it’s rooted in religion, but you guys started talking about economics, World War 2, Karl Marx, France, and U.S. involvement (per usual) and I was completely out of the loop the whole time.
it's the fucking fault of the british, google capitalism and imperialism
That's part of it as they wanted to control/have stability in the Suez canal to maintain imports from India. But, the significant roots of the current dispute are rooted in the British making multiple promises during WWI in an attempt to destabilize what they viewed to be the weakest coalition among the Germans, Austro-Hungarians, and the Ottoman Empire siding with Zionists and Pan-Arabs promising multiple things and not fulfilling on them. Many of the states created out of this fell for a variety of reasons and haven't seen stable democratic rule in their existence as independent nations (Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, and Jordan). While Britain had capitalistic goals, the primary goal was to destabilize the Ottoman Empire in order to win the first World War.
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This is not cool.
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-zHppePOIDr8/VidKiK3LSQI/AAAAAAAAAPE/choe05qz7v0/s1600/%25E3%2582%25B9%25E3%2582%25AF%25E3%2583%25AA%25E3%2583%25BC%25E3%2583%25B3%25E3%2582%25B7%25E3%2583%25A7%25E3%2583%2583%25E3%2583%2588%2B2015-10-21%2B16.56.37.png)
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I think SLAPs reference to the photos are a joke (probably) but it's always hard to tell on a forum, but just to put it out there I'm not going to condemn BA or Gonz for shirts they wore x years ago.
If they were wearing shirt with BiBi's face on it (fuck that dude) yeah, I'd be bummed and rethink my admiration, but (possible) souvenirs from a trip to Israel or a random thrift store find, not going to give it too much thought.
And yeah part of this has to do with who they are and what I assume their beliefs to be... I can't imagine either being pro-destruction of the Palestinian people.
I know a few of the AZ pros/industry dudes have AZ tattoos, I think don't a single one backs the state's right-wing politics, but instead AZ is a place they identify with despite the state's stupid ass politics. (I don't think Ryan Lay is going to be voting for Sheriff Joe even if he has an AZ tattoo.)
I might be applying a double standard here (I'm going to think about it), but, yeah, unless I see something past a shirt, I'm not worried about either of them.
https://www.jacobinmag.com/2021/05/canceling-comedians-while-the-world-burns-cancel-culture-moralism-social-media
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I think SLAPs reference to the photos are a joke (probably) but it's always hard to tell on a forum, but just to put it out there I'm not going to condemn BA or Gonz for shirts they wore x years ago.
If they were wearing shirt with BiBi's face on it (fuck that dude) yeah, I'd be bummed and rethink my admiration, but (possible) souvenirs from a trip to Israel or a random thrift store find, not going to give it too much thought.
And yeah part of this has to do with who they are and what I assume their beliefs to be... I can't imagine either being pro-destruction of the Palestinian people.
I know a few of the AZ pros/industry dudes have AZ tattoos, I think don't a single one backs the state's right-wing politics, but instead AZ is a place they identify with despite the state's stupid ass politics. (I don't think Ryan Lay is going to be voting for Sheriff Joe even if he has an AZ tattoo.)
I might be applying a double standard here (I'm going to think about it), but, yeah, unless I see something past a shirt, I'm not worried about either of them.
https://www.jacobinmag.com/2021/05/canceling-comedians-while-the-world-burns-cancel-culture-moralism-social-media
I'm not bashing either of them, I posted the Gonz photo to show that the shirt BA is wearing is identical, and a throw back in skate history. As soon as I saw that dudes post I instantly thought recalled video days. I guess some clarification is necessary when posting a photo to sort of mock another post for being touchy
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BA is probably only wearing it because the Gonz did and probably knows nothing about how sensitive the subject is like a lot of Americans i'm afraid to say.
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Guys I just thought up something totally insane
What if we tried talking about “Palestine’s right to exist”
That would be crazy right
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YOU SONOFABITCH!!
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Let’s be real about why this shit is happening. “Right to exist” is a convenient catch phrase, but the real reason is that the US Military needs allies and resources in the region to secure commodities like oil and minerals... and opium, in the case of Afghanistan. Oh, and also to prevent these smaller countries from thriving with assistance from rival superpowers. We could argue about the utility or the morality of these policies, but it’s all pointless if we don’t begin with a realistic understanding of the actual conditions.
Israeli “democracy” is about as legitimate as US democracy, which is to say it’s a total scam operated by ruling class interests. Recent elections show this pretty clearly. Many of the non-Jewish US politicians and right wingers who love Israel so much are actually anti-Semitic as fuck. If you personally are a Zionist for personal/religious reasons, that’s a different conversation. Geopolitics don’t care about that. It’s about cash, resources, power, etc.
good point here. especially the last sentence.
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^nailed it on the head. Israel is a client state of the US and is there to protect resource extraction in our pseudo colonies. Also apparently Israeli spies are super involved in the domestic mdma market here in the US. Gotta keep the drugs and minerals flowing
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^nailed it on the head. Israel is a client state of the US and is there to protect resource extraction in our pseudo colonies. Also apparently Israeli spies are super involved in the domestic mdma market here in the US. Gotta keep the drugs and minerals flowing
???
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Did this fit out of a trendycunt bar in bris earlier this year and it had waterless pissers getting replaced with newer waterless pissers
The plumber showed me this pipe going into the wall halfway blocked with this solidified shite and he’s all yeah this is all cut that punters have pissed out over the years
Gross, reckon legit or nah? I’ll try find the photo cause I remember I texted it to my mates at the time
I remember it fucken stank anyway but it could have just been piss minerals, too
Waterless urinals, don’t do it
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^nailed it on the head. Israel is a client state of the US and is there to protect resource extraction in our pseudo colonies. Also apparently Israeli spies are super involved in the domestic mdma market here in the US. Gotta keep the drugs and minerals flowing
???
https://www.haaretz.com/1.4723857
https://www.salon.com/2002/05/07/students/
https://www.customs.govt.nz/about-us/news/media-releases/israeli-trio-sentenced-for-carrying-$3.6-m-mdma-crystals/
https://jewishjournal.com/culture/health/4651/
Much like in our country, intelligence agencies and organized crime work in coordination from time to time. Shit is very weird. Mossad was doing DEA pen testing essentially to keep their mdma ring going
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Great thread to read up on. As I thought the skate world was completely silent or oblivious to the Middle East. Living in fear of being labeled an anti semite or HAMAS.
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someone shout out free Palestine in thrasher not too long ago
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Since my constitutionally protected first amendment free speech is under attack thanks to this right wing extremist regime of Zionist Israel, I would like to advise everyone to exercise your free speech in protest with me.
Fuck Zionist Israel and Fuck all Zionists.
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Since my constitutionally protected first amendment free speech is under attack thanks to this right wing extremist regime of Zionist Israel, I would like to advise everyone to exercise your free speech in protest with me.
Fuck Zionist Israel and Fuck all Zionists.
You actually sound like one of those right wing bitches you banned for exercising their free speech on this forum.
Just exercising my right of free speech with you.
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Since my constitutionally protected first amendment free speech is under attack thanks to this right wing extremist regime of Zionist Israel, I would like to advise everyone to exercise your free speech in protest with me.
Fuck Zionist Israel and Fuck all Zionists.
You actually sound like one of those right wing bitches you banned for exercising their free speech on this forum.
Just exercising my right of free speech with you.
Except they aren’t trying to pass legislation keeping me from saying what those right wing bitches are saying. Why are my rights being taken away for the sake of a foreign country?
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I thought repubs are trying to pass legislation for antisemitism. This is the greatest time to be alive. Truely funny.
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(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-zHppePOIDr8/VidKiK3LSQI/AAAAAAAAAPE/choe05qz7v0/s1600/%25E3%2582%25B9%25E3%2582%25AF%25E3%2583%25AA%25E3%2583%25BC%25E3%2583%25B3%25E3%2582%25B7%25E3%2583%25A7%25E3%2583%2583%25E3%2583%2588%2B2015-10-21%2B16.56.37.png)
Spike Jonze is Jewish, friends at that time I'm sure that had played a part.
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I thought repubs are trying to pass legislation for antisemitism. This is the greatest time to be alive. Truely funny.
It’s not just republicans and it’s to stifle criticism of Israel which isn’t antisemitism.
Saying it is antisemitism is like saying anyone against Israel is automatically pro-Hamas. It’s not true and it is just a way of trying to quiet dissent or completely shut down discourse.
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Yes completely agree, they’re calling protesters HAMAS ( a terrorist org that Israel helped create). Just wanted to clarify that they are indeed attacking 1st amendment, as both parties are simps for Israel.
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Does anyone have the right to exist at the expense of someone else?
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Does anyone have the right to exist at the expense of someone else?
NO
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The people should have a right to exist. Not a state named anything
And religion is poison
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https://www.democracynow.org/2024/5/15/nakba_day (https://www.democracynow.org/2024/5/15/nakba_day)
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https://www.nbcnews.com/sciencemain/most-ashkenazi-jews-are-genetically-europeans-surprising-study-finds-8c11358210
Can anyone help me find and allow me access to the study in question?
I am interested in analyzing it myself before coming to any conclusions.
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https://www.nbcnews.com/sciencemain/most-ashkenazi-jews-are-genetically-europeans-surprising-study-finds-8c11358210
Can anyone help me find and allow me access to the study in question?
I am interested in analyzing it myself before coming to any conclusions.
Being self admittedly too fucking stupid to successfully complete a basic literature search, but wanting to 'analyze' the paper yourself? If it all wouldn't be so incredibly sad it would be funny.
Here you are. Go ahead and do 'your own research'.
https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms3543
And if you want it in a more digestible manner:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/10/131008112539.htm
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I would thank you if you were anyone else. There are actually posters here that do each other kindnesses that are worthy of gratitude without any expectation of thanks. Those are the kind of people I am talking to when I post. You. You can fuck off. Enjoy your self imposed life of hostility. You don’t deserve any hospitality. Don’t expect any here.
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I would thank you if you were anyone else. There are actually posters here that do each other kindnesses that are worthy of gratitude without any expectation of thanks. Those are the kind of people I am talking to when I post. You. You can fuck off. Enjoy your self imposed life of hostility. You don’t deserve any hospitality. Don’t expect any here.
The kind of people that you are 'talking' to are the people that say the things you like to hear and that confirm your view of things. Everyone else gets either a selfrighteous and condescending reply like this or get's banned by you straight away.
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I’ll let you in on a secret. I’m not the one doing all the banning. I’ve done the least banning of any of the mods.
Keep thinking what you want of me. I’ve dealt with much worse in the navy than you could ever try to hurt me with on a fucking message board.
You’re so fucking pathetically thin skinned from your presumptions. Do yourself a favor and focus your account. You’ll never be welcome here.
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I've been bullied on here like it's 1990 because I don't filter myself around the judgements of an Internet forum. The fervor with which people have personally attacked me on here (with impunity) would make you think I spread transphobic slurs, but I dont. I'm just annoying, but that's reason enough on here. This is not primarily a place of compassion, kindness and honesty, the way youre trying to paint it - although these do exist and are beautiful and the reason I come back - but the dominant vibe is that of a mid 90s schoolyard group with a bunch of popular alpha jocks (are there any women on here at all?) and their gang of eager to please yesmen. I'm all for attacking (and banning) those that would deny others their freedom and right to exist. But if kindness is reserved for those accepted to the inner circle, it's not worth all that much. A lot of people on here are all about being just the right amount of cynically funny and boldly moralist when the target is sufficiently black and white.
I don't condone the hatefulness with which this user is attacking you and I feel your pain around the unfolding horror in the middle East, but I have to contradict the narrative that the main discourse on here is that of mutual kindness.
Also, watch out trying to find any "arguments" in genetical traits of Jewish people. That usually doesn't bode well. Much love, despite everything, from Germany
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I'm just annoying
like a flea or a mosquito
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like a flea or a mosquito
Great way to talk about people. So full of kindness.
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I've been bullied on here like it's 1990 because I don't filter myself around the judgements of an Internet forum. The fervor with which people have personally attacked me on here (with impunity) would make you think I spread transphobic slurs, but I dont. I'm just annoying, but that's reason enough on here. This is not primarily a place of compassion, kindness and honesty, the way youre trying to paint it - although these do exist and are beautiful and the reason I come back - but the dominant vibe is that of a mid 90s schoolyard group with a bunch of popular alpha jocks (are there any women on here at all?) and their gang of eager to please yesmen. I'm all for attacking (and banning) those that would deny others their freedom and right to exist. But if kindness is reserved for those accepted to the inner circle, it's not worth all that much. A lot of people on here are all about being just the right amount of cynically funny and boldly moralist when the target is sufficiently black and white.
I don't condone the hatefulness with which this user is attacking you and I feel your pain around the unfolding horror in the middle East, but I have to contradict the narrative that the main discourse on here is that of mutual kindness.
Also, watch out trying to find any "arguments" in genetical traits of Jewish people. That usually doesn't bode well. Much love, despite everything, from Germany
It sounds like you want to be accepted. Do you want to get accepted? Post some footage. That’s the best thing you can do. Over the decades I’ve been on the various iterations of this message board, I’ve seen footage from a lot of these regular posters that you think are nothing more than yes men. Even Le Dave/Dave Le put himself out there and earned his place to be regarded as a skateboarder and not just a poster on here.
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like a flea or a mosquito
Great way to talk about people. So full of kindness.
Yes you’re annoying. You constantly spam the boards and when people criticize your behavior you act like you’re a victim and call them bullies. You’re not a victim. You’re a fucking kook.
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The fact you both confuse the wish not to be personally insulted and attacked for opinions that don't hurt other people with a longing for acceptance or an inability to take criticism illustrates my point perfectly. 90s schoolyard macho hierarchies. I really hope this isn't how you live your regular lives.
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The existence of Israel will likely go the same way as other governments based on
supremacism
Similar to the Confederacy, South Africa, Nazi Germany, etc.
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The fact you both confuse the wish not to be personally insulted and attacked for opinions that don't hurt other people with a longing for acceptance or an inability to take criticism illustrates my point perfectly. 90s schoolyard macho hierarchies. I really hope this isn't how you live your regular lives.
That’s the thing. You don’t even see you’ve been personally attacking people here that have at the bare minimum shown they’re actually people who skate. I don’t even know if anything you have said about yourself is true yet you have taken on an attitude that you belong and deserve respect when you’re actively disrespecting others and kooking it hard. You are nothing special here. People like you have come and gone many times over because frankly we just ignore you or you finally do something to get banned because you’re so attention starved.
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The fact you both confuse the wish not to be personally insulted and attacked for opinions that don't hurt other people with a longing for acceptance or an inability to take criticism illustrates my point perfectly. 90s schoolyard macho hierarchies. I really hope this isn't how you live your regular lives.
I only attack, in the actual sense of the word, those who attack others. I don't care about kooking because ingroup-focused boys' clubs are the most pathetic thing on the planet. I'm getting what I come here for just fine: links to awesome new skaters/videos, answers to things that cross my mind and Paul Hart of Bones. Irking Pontus was a bonus. And hopefully we get Cole of Zero by the end of this month.
I don't want to be popular, I'm simply asking not to be treated with verbal violence when I'm being merely annoying, not violent or discriminatory. I'm asking for you to see and act on the difference between me and, for example, tyroneshoelaces. I shouldn't have to play by your standards to have a right not to be told "fuck you, you suck".
I can't make it any clearer than that so I'll let this thread get back to it's actual topic. Fuck Netanyahu
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The fact you both confuse the wish not to be personally insulted and attacked for opinions that don't hurt other people with a longing for acceptance or an inability to take criticism illustrates my point perfectly. 90s schoolyard macho hierarchies. I really hope this isn't how you live your regular lives.
I only attack, in the actual sense of the word, those who attack others. I don't care about kooking because ingroup-focused boys' clubs are the most pathetic thing on the planet. I'm getting what I come here for just fine: links to awesome new skaters/videos, answers to things that cross my mind and Paul Hart of Bones. Irking Pontus was a bonus. And hopefully we get Cole of Zero by the end of this month.
I don't want to be popular, I'm simply asking not to be treated with verbal violence when I'm being merely annoying, not violent or discriminatory. I'm asking for you to see and act on the difference between me and, for example, tyroneshoelaces. I shouldn't have to play by your standards to have a right not to be told "fuck you, you suck".
I can't make it any clearer than that so I'll let this thread get back to it's actual topic. Fuck Netanyahu
Its, like, just their opinion that you suck, man. They have the right to it and to say “fuck you.”
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So does anyone think this is just an opinion?
Does anyone have the right to exist at the expense of someone else?
This dude is defintiely not 'just asking a question'. They are articulating a genocidal fantasy. Uncle Flea clearly sensed it.
And under the obvious biologistic reading that is implied by their wording this is indeed an antisemitic genocidal fantasy. 'Anyone that exists at the expense of someone else' is a paraphrase for being a 'parasite'. And parasites need to be exterminated. This is what 'Does anyone have the right to exist at the expense of someone else?' translates to.
As such this 'question' is fully in line with its historical racist predecessor: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Eternal_Jew_(film)
Now you could say, that the dude did not even intend for this reading. But that doesn't make it any better. This reading is there, and tolerating or championing it means to normalize antisemitic, genocidal narratives on this board. Because there are people that actually mean it this way. But wait, isn't here something like an anti-racist consensus enforced (remember 10/10 and phart)? Apparently not. Instead you get to read this in the same threat:
Since my constitutionally protected first amendment free speech is under attack thanks to this right wing extremist regime of Zionist Israel, I would like to advise everyone to exercise your free speech in protest with me.
Fuck Zionist Israel and Fuck all Zionists.
And actually, this could have been posted word for word on an alt-right board. No one of the racists there would object. And they even have a name for what is expressed by such 'opinions': ZOG. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionist_Occupation_Government_conspiracy_theory
(And, actually, nowadays they indeed prefer the Z-word over the J-word.)
And I bet they would dig someone coming to new conclusions regarding 'Blood and Soil'. Maybe you can even score some funding from them for the little research project that was brought up in this threat:
https://www.nbcnews.com/sciencemain/most-ashkenazi-jews-are-genetically-europeans-surprising-study-finds-8c11358210
Can anyone help me find and allow me access to the study in question?
I am interested in analyzing it myself before coming to any conclusions.
So, anyone who thinks it only 'questions' that are asked and 'opinions' are expressed, be quick. Research is a race for money.
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Plenty of genetic studies that show Ashkenaz jews are primarily descended from the same folks as middle eastern jews and closely related. Cohenaim in particular are tightly related across Jewish groups. I'd be happy to provide actual links if folks are interested. 0% genetic evidence that the "khazar theory' of Ashkenazi jews being descended from khazar converts true.
Missing the point though-- Judaism is a tribe. Jews are not obsessed with Genes. As a tribe, we descend from folks that were exiled from ancient Israel, with converts and adoptions mixed in. The fact that Ashkenazi jews (some) are part European and that yemenite jews part arab irrelevant. It is a tribal ethno-religious group.
You aren't going to be able to kick us out of Israel and the comparisons to South Africa are absurd.
Hope everyone has been well!
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Plenty of genetic studies that show Ashkenaz jews are primarily descended from the same folks as middle eastern jews and closely related. Cohenaim in particular are tightly related across Jewish groups. I'd be happy to provide actual links if folks are interested. 0% genetic evidence that the "khazar theory' of Ashkenazi jews being descended from khazar converts true.
Missing the point though-- Judaism is a tribe. Jews are not obsessed with Genes. As a tribe, we descend from folks that were exiled from ancient Israel, with converts and adoptions mixed in. The fact that Ashkenazi jews (some) are part European and that yemenite jews part arab irrelevant. It is a tribal ethno-religious group.
You aren't going to be able to kick us out of Israel and the comparisons to South Africa are absurd.
Hope everyone has been well!
Kind of like “you” did to the Palestinians…
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Rights are imaginary.
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I've been bullied on here like it's 1990 because I don't filter myself around the judgements of an Internet forum. The fervor with which people have personally attacked me on here (with impunity) would make you think I spread transphobic slurs, but I dont. I'm just annoying, but that's reason enough on here. This is not primarily a place of compassion, kindness and honesty, the way youre trying to paint it - although these do exist and are beautiful and the reason I come back - but the dominant vibe is that of a mid 90s schoolyard group with a bunch of popular alpha jocks (are there any women on here at all?) and their gang of eager to please yesmen. I'm all for attacking (and banning) those that would deny others their freedom and right to exist. But if kindness is reserved for those accepted to the inner circle, it's not worth all that much. A lot of people on here are all about being just the right amount of cynically funny and boldly moralist when the target is sufficiently black and white.
I don't condone the hatefulness with which this user is attacking you and I feel your pain around the unfolding horror in the middle East, but I have to contradict the narrative that the main discourse on here is that of mutual kindness.
Also, watch out trying to find any "arguments" in genetical traits of Jewish people. That usually doesn't bode well. Much love, despite everything, from Germany
dude came to this very thread to talk about himself lol
but yeah i can't believe people don't like you on here, like what could possibly be the reason for that?!?
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allright this is where you can make your case. For those who think a Jewish state has no right to exist, well explain your point.
My view is that 1, other people have no state. Palestine is no exception, it is simply a trendy cause, and it also attracts a lot of arab solidarity. Let me remind you that there are other people who have no state, like the berbers and the kurds. But strangely no one gives a fuck about them.
2 : Israel is the only democracy in the region. There is not one arab country with democracy, unfortunately.
3 : to explain my position a bit more, I have thought a lot about this conflict because France has Europe's largest Jewish AND muslim population. I have friends on both sides and unfortunately this conflict resonates in France a lot. We even had crazy fanatics like Mohammed Merah gunning down 8 year old kids in front of a Jewish school.
Finally: let's try to keep this civilized. ::)
Edit: totally forgot to explain this discussion started in the Ryan Lay Palestine thread
My homie made a great point about how israel is touted as "only liberal democracy in the middle east" like it's some sort of W for liberal democracies... when it's a huge fucking L for liberal democracies if they can still be a horrific genocidal/apartheid state doing some of the genuinely most evil shit we've seen for a long time, while being a liberal democracy. Oh so your shitty population voted for this genocide in free and fair elections? give me a fucking break
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https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/22/europe/norway-ireland-spain-palestinian-state-analysis-intl/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/22/europe/norway-ireland-spain-palestinian-state-analysis-intl/index.html)
Interesting
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Bibis father (Benzion Netanyahu), revisionists more specifically Irguns and the bombing of king David hotel are all things worth while looking into for context of the history of modern day Israel I’d say
If one is interested
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https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/poll-75-of-jewish-israelis-back-rafah-operation/#:~:text=A%20new%20poll%20finds%20that%20around%20three-quarters%20of,with%20Hamas%2C%20while%20two-thirds%20of%20Arab%20respondents%20disagree.
It is scary to imagine the mindset of a population that supports this.
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https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/poll-75-of-jewish-israelis-back-rafah-operation/#:~:text=A%20new%20poll%20finds%20that%20around%20three-quarters%20of,with%20Hamas%2C%20while%20two-thirds%20of%20Arab%20respondents%20disagree.
It is scary to imagine the mindset of a population that supports this.
So scary